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Star Wars: The Old Republic E3 2009 Preview
They're changing the way stories are told in MMOs. Will it work? Find out what we saw from the Bioware MMO.
Bioware is one of those companies. Like Blizzard, they’re respected and combined with the Knights of the Old Republic intellectual property, they’re undoubtedly going to sell millions of copies of Star Wars: The Old Republic. It would be easy then for them to slack off and make “WoW in Space,” but based on what they showed at E3, they’re not taking the easy way out at all.
“No one has made [story] the central pillar of the game as we have,” explained Senior Producer Dallas Dickenson during their lavish E3 presentation. “Story drives choice and choice drives action.”
The Old Republic looks and feels far more like a single player RPG than an MMO. The quests they showed could have been straight out of Mass Effect. They were fully voice acted – in fact the entirety of The Old Republic is voiced – and cinematic in nature. This includes the player character, who responds with a dialogue wheel, virtually identical to the on Bioware used in Mass Effect.
;)
The dialogue choices people make are important too. The entire E3 demo was set up to make each group through take a divergent path.
In each demo, they’d run through a quest on screen. The players, on the dark side, were on a ship that had been ordered to undertake a very dangerous, likely suicidal mission. The captain of the ship had refused, so the players were tasked with changing his mind.
Through dialogue, the players could either try to convince the Captain to do the right thing and listen to his superiors, or just simply kill him and take over the ship.
Each group had to decide whether to kill or convince the Captain and according to the Bioware guys, this totally changed the course of what happened next. Of course, they only showed each one side. In our group, people voted to spare the captain (I didn’t!) and he was convinced to change course and enter the battle, which eventually led to a nice duel with a Jedi.
;)
While the dialogue system looks and feels a lot like Mass Effect, it is important to note that it is expanded for MMOs. In that demonstration, there were two members in the group and both had chances to talk, and presumably shape the outcome of the conversation. They’ve made dialogue multiplayer.
Dickenson began the presentation by explaining four pillars to making a good game. Three of them have been nailed, he said. Most games have RPG style combat, exploration and character progression down perfectly. The fourth neglected pillar is story.
Bioware wants to make a game that makes the players feel like they’re a part of something. It’s a game that they hope will have an emotional impact on its players.
These are a lot of buzzwords not often used by MMO companies. It was good to hear.
Dickenson half joked that in response to the often asked question of why they’re not making Knights of the Old Republic 3, they say they are… and 4, and 5 and 6, and 7.
In The Old Republic, each class essentially has its own epic, fully voiced storyline to follow through their development arc. In effect, each class had become its own game within the game. They wanted to make sure classes like the Smuggler had a story that fit that class, not just appropriate hot bar abilities.
;)
That’s not to say the game is all about story and forgetting those mechanics. The Smuggler, a new class first revealed at E3, for example plays much differently than the one line description of a ranged class. The Smuggler, modeled after the Han Solo style, has an extensive cover system. This is represented by boxes that appear throughout the world. When stood in, it gives him some protection and allows him to fire around corners without being exposed. It looks and feels like how people should remember Han’s gun battles.
Artistically, they also seem to have raised the bar. The game looks a bit like Clone Wars. It is a stylized realism, that is by no means a cartoon, but not exactly photo realistic either.
The movement is what really sold it for me, though. This isn’t a game with two guys smacking each other in the face with light sabers. The combat looks fast and both sides will parry each other’s blows as iconic sparks fly. The fights end logically too. It’s not just a final smack followed by a death animation. When the guy dies that last blow clearly killed him.
It is still, at its core, an RPG mechanic driven experience, but it looks and sounds a lot like a Star Wars movie. It’s a neat trick, but from what they showed, they’ve caught the feeling.
;)
Of course, they also plan to do all the regular MMOish stuff. There will be PvP, raiding, guilds, crafting, etc. But that wasn’t why they had everyone into that room. They wanted to show us that they’ve made a game that looks and feels like Star Wars. It’s epic, it’s full of story and it’s online.
I’ve seen literally hundreds of demonstrations and presentations over the years at E3, so it’s far too soon to tell if they’ve really pulled this off, but Bioware is saying all the right things. They’re making a game that, while rooted in what people love about MMOs, adds a truly Bioware experience. If their execution matches the rhetoric, this is easily the most surefire hit shown at E3 this year.
The more I see of this game the more I believe that I will be returning to the MMO playground.
If they can offer even most of what they've promised I'll be happy and enjoying the game for a long time to come, as long as I can have a character of each class so I can indulge my altitis and experience the whole game.
"bows to the promis of a good mmo game"
This definitely raises my hopes. Final judgment will follow upon personal hands-on play.
Oh yeah, cause nothing says MMORPG like:
"The Old Republic looks and feels far more like a single player RPG than an MMO."
I'm glad this gets some of you stoked. I'm not sure you are hanging out on the right website though....
I know, right. But hey, I'm not going to try to rain on anyone's parade here. Some people like that. The only issue I have with the notion is the whole industry has that mentality and it seems not a single big name company capable of producing a decent MMO is...well...capable of doing anything but rinse and repeating with a different color of paint.
Meh, the money I would have spent on upgrading my computer for new games I have spent on new guns and new fishing gear, as well as a trip out to San Diego and a future trip next year to Tobago. Maybe I'll buy that ATV I've been looking at too. :D
I CANNOT WAIT!
Yeah, I dont like the fact that you have to pay a monthly fee for "single player rpg" disguised as an MMO. I have faith my sub will go into content updates, if not it feels like a ripoff imo.
I kind of take the "feels like a single player game" comment as meaning...it seems to have the complexity and detail of a SPG. That your character...though able to actively work with many other characters...in typical MMO style...will not lose the feeling of being an individual character...with its own history and meaningful accomplishments..its own story ......as opposed to a gear chewing clone of every other toon that judges itself "individual" only to the extent of how many noobs were pwned and how much uber armor sets you own.. I sure many will say I'm wrong....but that's how I perceive the statement...and well...it sounds damn good to me.
2 things. 1 from what I've seen and heard, ToR being like a single RPG is not meant in a negative sense. It is meant to explain that the gameplay has a quality that so far only single players have displayed. That means that this game will not be about killing 10 rats in a field you share with other players who are also after the rats, but instead you'll be in an involving storyline, alone or with other players, with dialogue choice and with dept. That is something that is sorely lacking in todays MMO's, but of course if it doesn't work out we can always go back to the plethora of games where questing is still "kill 10 rats plz".
Secondly, Bioware has made clear that this game will have all the content you expect from an MMO including crafting, grouping, raiding and PVP. If it works out, then it will make every other mmo pale by comparison, as it will be an MMO that has everything that is enjoyable about MMO'ing yet cuts out the one element about MMO's that is still ancient and retarded, the questing which is replaced by storyline content that has the quality of a single player game and will thus be far more immersive and exciting.
Of course its too early to tell, but Bioware haven't dissapointed me so far.
I wholely agree with this aspect, especially considering he talks about a mission that was done with a group and a group had to make choice. I think the feeling of a single player game lies in the nature of the strong storytelling, which is typically found best in single player rpg experiences rather then MMO's. Some MMO's may have tried it but they hardly compare to their single player counter parts when it comes to being an instrument in the story.
Wow man, that dudes nose in that picture looks like it has had some serious drug abuse, blow, alchol, or crank thats not a normal red nose LOL
Considering Single Player RPGs >>>>>>>>> MMOs in general I have to say I'm stoked.
Then again I was sold at Bioware.
In Bioware we trust.
Gah, why didn't he wrote more? Did he see how many levels there were (if any)? How did combat work? could you customize your characters skills and attributes?
The story is of course what is most important in any Bioware game but that's no reason to not talking about the other stuff too.
To quote Sisters of mercy "I want more"!
To many companies have talk the talk, so lets wait and see if they walk the walk too.
True, but Bioware do at least have enough hit games in their background to be able to back it up a lot better than many companies. No MMO, that is true but it still is more than most.
I'll be interested to see how the "group" part of it works. I can see people fighting over what dialogue to pick the entire time...and does what YOU say effect your path, or does what the group says effect your path? If its the later, then I fear people will be in static groups and NEVER want to do a pug.
Other than that..I'm looking forward to this...Also....WHERES THE PAZAAK GAME?! I loved that!
I think this game is going to be a gem in the rough. Instead of mindless fedex quests your going to have a story inside the big story. First there is the story of the empire vs the republic story which everyone will be a part of and group together to do and than there is going to be your class story inside of that which you can also group up while you are doing it. Just the fact that you are going to have a personal story inside the big story like luke batteling with his light and dark side within him.
Just sounds epic to me.
"Of course, they also plan to do all the regular MMOish stuff. There will be PvP, raiding, guilds, crafting, etc."
Sounds like they're gonna throw those "not so important as story"-elements like oh, PvP, raiding, crafting etc in at the last minute, just to be able to justify selling what is really a very large (massive even) single-player RPG as an MMO to the public.
Let's hope that's not the case though; I will have faith in Bioware, at least for now.
I'm a believer in innocent until proven guilty. There is no evidence to support that the other elements of the game are just last minute additions.
At the very least I'm going to put my trust in Bioware delivering well on these other aspects. If they don't turn out well, I'll criticize them then.
I don't think that at all I think those things are expected to be in an mmo now a days so they don't see the need to talk so much about them. There sellign point is story and voice over that is what is going to make the game different.
If they just talked about he raiding, crafting, and pvp but not the story everyone would be saying oh just another wow clone with a star wars skin.
This game is going to be awesome. I can't wait (althought I have to
).
Most of my RL friends who play mmos will be playing this one, along with myself. I predict it will do quite well.
Should ask whats the end-game like for players? Isit still raid-or-die? Who's the healer in raid? Do they also stick to the holy trinity type?
Kinda boring when i read there will be raiding in-game...
Yeah, the game would be more fun without raiding... WHAT?
Yeah, the game would be more fun without raiding... WHAT?
Yes because history shows lack of a PvE endgame makes for a wonderful experience... >.>
SISTERS OF MERCY...personal story...imo...I once dated a girl who claimed she dated the original drummer from Sisters of Mercy. She even knew his name was 'Doktor Avalanche"...but apparently knew little else. If you are familiar with the band....you know why that is funny. We didn't date very long. She must have seen something shinier than me. Anyway....why does ths game already have such adamant doom-speak going on....I understand being apprehensive..but I'm so tired of the floodland of negativity...just seems to be a slight case of overbombing.
That's how I read it also. What I really think is that Bioware is doing something completely out of the box here. I think that to try to understand or evaluate it based on other games is a mistake. There are no other games like what it seems they are planning.
Crafting, guilds, raiding, pvp, plus unique characters making choices that truly affect their world and their destiny. There's simply nothing like this in the MMO world that I'm aware of, especially with the voice acting and cinematic detail. This sounds like new ground, and I'm very excited to give it a try.
I also know of and like a lot of the people working on this at Bioware. They have some good people working on this. I also think, and hope, that based past MMO experience this one should be in good shape at release. I really hope they make that a priority. It's so important.
SISTERS OF MERCY...personal story...imo...I once dated a girl who claimed she dated the original drummer from Sisters of Mercy. She even knew his name was 'Doktor Avalanche"...but apparently knew little else. If you are familiar with the band....you know why that is funny. We didn't date very long. She must have seen something shinier than me. Anyway....why does ths game already have such adamant doom-speak going on....I understand being apprehensive..but I'm so tired of the floodland of negativity...just seems to be a slight case of overbombing.
Most likely because we have been getting, in the opinion of many, lackluster games with no real "keep players around for more than a few months" type production value over the last several years. There are quite a few folks, notably Rich Vogel and Gordon Walton, who are key players with the development of this game who have verbally championed the current template for making MMOs. Add to it the verbage they used when this game was announced ("iconic" was dropped alot; the same notorious word used for the NGE) and the "oh by the way" the "other MMOish features" are mentioned (and that Vogel admitted he didn't want crafting in at all initially until some junior dev pleaded to him to let him try out his idea that promised not to get in the way of being iconic or heroic)...
Well, it should be easy to see why not everyone is "gaga" over TOR. As far as being unique goes with respect to character, it'll be hardly the case. Sure, players get choices, but per each class at each "choice point", there are only a limited number of options. Exhausting all possible "combinations" per a given class would most likely take not more than a couple thousand people. That and from what they have spoken about it does sound pretty much that you follow the storyline put before you and if you want to do something different you role another class. Personally, I'm not an altoholic so that doesn't sound enticing to me at all. I'd much rather have a wealth of very detailed, very robust to the point they could be considered games within the game options to choose from and available to the character race/class I want to be in SW.
*shrug* To each their own.
Yes because history shows lack of a PvE endgame makes for a wonderful experience... >.>
Maybe for once a developer would have the balls to come up with something else for end game other than the tired and mostly unpopular raiding paradigm. We all know raiding is a niche play style, yet every game seems to focus on it obsessively. Screwing the majority of the player base with no viable alternative.
I am quite disappointed in any developer's desire to implement raiding at all in this or any casual oriented game. Leave the raiding to the hardcore games and give us casuals a game we can truly call ours.
Yes because history shows lack of a PvE endgame makes for a wonderful experience... >.>
Maybe for once a developer would have the balls to come up with something else for end game other than the tired and mostly unpopular raiding paradigm. We all know raiding is a niche play style, yet every game seems to focus on it obsessively. Screwing the majority of the player base with no viable alternative.
I am quite disappointed in any developer's desire to implement raiding at all in this or any casual oriented game. Leave the raiding to the hardcore games and give us casuals a game we can truly call ours.
If they don't release a focus healing class or class tree then this would just be casual raiding anyways. Think higher difficulty mini-stories that require multiple people to complete.
Not saying that's how it will happen just pointing out possibilities.
Why do your kind even continue to post in anything TOR related? It's been made abundantly clear TOR will be a themepark MMO, not a sandbox, so why do you people insist on griping about it everychance you get.
Do you people also complain about Capitalism while living in the US with no intention of ever moving out... because that's the equivalent level of ludicrous in comparison to complaining about TOR's themepark nature.
SWG is dead. Long live TOR.
For the record, I meant that line in terms of just presentation and polish. Not it's single vs. multi playerhood.
The presentation looked like how single player games are. That didn't by any appearence make it any "less" of an MMO.
Think of it this way. The game features voice acting and cut scenes involving your character. Something no one has in MMOs, but appears all the time in everything from Half Life to Prototype. Thus, the single-player-esque aspects. I honestly didn't see enough to judge its online aspects beyond the "multi player dialogue" discussed in the article.
well...i still think it's slightly strange that one person can make a post...essentially saying...that they think the game looks like it is going to be good and hopefully different. Then naysayer(s) post seemingly endless diatribes trying to "AH HA!" every statement a developer makes ...usually out of context.....to counter a prior or latter statement. ...whilst incorprating the "x" game failed because of "Yadda yadda" and "y" company lied to reach logical conclusions of "x+y = FAIL>TOR"......So don't get your hopes up....or even...don't care. Apparently the negative posters won't even give it a chance because the facts are not coming fast enough or whatever. Although you all are entitled...why post at all? You're not saving souls here. It's like if I had my heart broken several times then just decided to give up on Love altogether ...but surround myself with hundreds of photos and letters from every person that ever hurt me. I just don't get it. It's not that serious.
For the record, I meant that line in terms of just presentation and polish. Not it's single vs. multi playerhood.
The presentation looked like how single player games are. That didn't by any appearence make it any "less" of an MMO.
Think of it this way. The game features voice acting and cut scenes involving your character. Something no one has in MMOs, but appears all the time in everything from Half Life to Prototype. Thus, the single-player-esque aspects. I honestly didn't see enough to judge its online aspects beyond the "multi player dialogue" discussed in the article.
That's pretty much what everyone who really wants to play this game...myself included...thought you meant.
For the record, I meant that line in terms of just presentation and polish. Not it's single vs. multi playerhood.
The presentation looked like how single player games are. That didn't by any appearence make it any "less" of an MMO.
Think of it this way. The game features voice acting and cut scenes involving your character. Something no one has in MMOs, but appears all the time in everything from Half Life to Prototype. Thus, the single-player-esque aspects. I honestly didn't see enough to judge its online aspects beyond the "multi player dialogue" discussed in the article.
Didn't Age of Conan have this? I seem to remember it did, for the first 20 levels at any rate.
Depending on how burned out, bitter and jaded a player you are, you might see cutscenes as intrusions into your flow.
I think the appealing idea of an mmorpg is that given enough room to explore and grow, your story could be truly unique. When your character appears in a cutscene, any notion of uniqueness is done away with. You are now -this- character or -that- character, ie one of theirs, but certainly not the one you created for yourself.
Don't get me wrong, I look forward to Bioware's approach to getting the player connected to their character and to the game, but it does nothing to inspire the open-ended character-building opportunity that a content-rich sandbox game could present. If such a thing existed.
Didn't Age of Conan have this? I seem to remember it did, for the first 20 levels at any rate.
Depending on how burned out, bitter and jaded a player you are, you might see cutscenes as intrusions into your flow.
I think the appealing idea of an mmorpg is that given enough room to explore and grow, your story could be truly unique. When your character appears in a cutscene, any notion of uniqueness is done away with. You are now -this- character or -that- character, ie one of theirs, but certainly not the one you created for yourself.
Don't get me wrong, I look forward to Bioware's approach to getting the player connected to their character and to the game, but it does nothing to inspire the open-ended character-building opportunity that a content-rich sandbox game could present. If such a thing existed
I disagree based on the fact that the game is non-linear. And I don't think sandbox is what this game needed, tbh.
Still think it'll be a PvE WAR.
AoC had voice and cutscenes. I even remember them in AC2.
Only thing unique I see is the illusion of choice in a instance quest.
But maybe I read the article wrong. Maybe if everyone voted to kill the captn the ship woulda crashed into a moon or Barny would spawnd and they had to decap him. Instead of having a battle with jedi. My guess is they woulda fougt jedi but had a diff cutscene and dialogue.
All the info seems to scream story, story story. No details on inovative crafting, PvP or customization. Just story.
Which says to me.
Itll have basic dumb down crafting like WAR.
PvP mini games. If they had a system where players battled for Territory or rescources they would be hyping it left and right.
Seems like a co-op game with some basic mmog elements just to say there game is a mmog.
You did. You're also making all kinds of assumptions that aren't based on anything except your own paranoia.
True, but Bioware do at least have enough hit games in their background to be able to back it up a lot better than many companies. No MMO, that is true but it still is more than most.
Hit games in the background don't mean squat, unfortunately...... Brad McQuaid == EQ (hit) == Vanguard (unfortunately, not so much)
Richard Garriott == Ultima everything he touched (hit) == Tabula Rasa (not so much)
time will tell if this is a hit or a miss...
i'm hoping hit, because it looks awesome
From this article and other things I have read, this game does not play to the strengths of the mmo genre. Yeah it is from a top notch developer, has high production values, it's Star Wars, and it continues the legacy of it's successful single player predecessors. Based on these factors alone I think it will be a commercial success. I'm buying it.
But as an 'mmo experience' I am not convinced. It just sounds like a financially well invested rpg with a coop feature added to justify a revolving subscription.
When I first started playing games in this genre, they were referred to as MMORPG's. After awhile these games continued to evolve away from that immersive type experience and games starting leaving off the RPG. So then we had MMO's. Now it seems we will be leaving off the Massively in 'MMO' so that what we are left with is a MO. Pretty soon it will just be O.
Heck yes. SW:TOR brings a giddy gleeful tear to my eye. ;)
I do hope that they have Jade Empire style combat as well for TK-type class. :) :) One of the best H2H combat I've seen in a longest time.
"Its more of a Single Player game then MMO!"
WTF??
I want a Star Wars MMORPG, and i want to make my own story! Not that "every player will be epic" scap : (
Guess what? If every story is epic.....that means noone is epic ,compared to another player.
Why? Everything else sounds so great.
This game will attract a large number of theme-park players, I'd think. Making 'story' the central theme and hook within a pve-centric mmo doesnt come to mind, over the last several years, as something that other communities of players are clammering for, again, aside from the theme-park pve-centric mmo player-base I'd think.
I'm all for speculation, as long as there is a little bit of reason and commen sense behind it, but things here are just getting out of control.
There are so few facts known about this game, it's a bit too early to for all of the whining and crying about how they're ruining the game, they're not making the game the way someone wants it, they're killing babies in china, etc.
You guys are the reason game developers are so afraid to try something new. Without knowing any of the details, you're already ranting about how it's going to fail. Of course, if they just do things they way they've been doing, you'll complain about that too.
People need to stop getting personally offended every time a game comes out that doesn't cater to their specific, minority, views. And if you insist on getting offended, which many of you do, then at least wait until there are real details known about the game so you have something of substance to cry about.
Stop caring so much about being "better" than other players. You are not. You will be one among many. Just like everybody else. Focus more on having a good experience with your character. That's what these games should be about. Nobody really needs an entire game just to stroke their e-peen.
Which are more than enough players to make it a commercial success.
I don't really get the sense of this topic getting 'out of control'. It's just a bunch of folks who love games giving their opinions. Some people are passionate, some are very logical and rational. But I don't sense a growing tide of hystrionics.
Also, gamers are not the reason developers are afraid to try something new. I think that fault lies with the business suits who take data and attempt to distill it into some kind of formula for commercial success.
Which are more than enough players to make it a commercial success.
Right, but just because Disney's Club Penguins is a very commercially successful mmo, doesn't mean that it's for everyone. So, it's not a matter of commercial success since the most primitive mmo's are commercially successful, it's a matter of awareness about what your looking for. I will give this a test-drive, but potentially being an overly-glorified story-centric, solo rpg-like, pve-concentrated, player-influence diminsihed mmo, it might not be for me.
it anoys me that people are so hyped about a great trailer but pointless CGI, and pretty bland screen shots. still no proper gameplay footage to tell how fun the game will actually be.
I want to know about combat system, story alone doesn't make a game great. kotor1&2 maybe have been auto attack but that was a long time ago. Want I primarily want to know is if its autoattack. autoattack just doesn't cut it anymore imo, whether its an mmo or not. if they where making kotor 3, like they claim they are, you'd bet it would have a combat system to compete with ME, FE3, etc.
What a depressing, defeatist, 'All Shall Have Prizes' attitude. I hope no developer of any studio takes any notice fo you.
You did. You're also making all kinds of assumptions that aren't based on anything except your own paranoia.
So its okay for anyone whose excited for the game to base things on assumption but not someone who thinks the game is all hype. Got ya. And paranoia? R u serious. Seems like I said something that got you heated and you just ran your mouth.
This.
To be honest, the article just reinforces my worries about the kind of game this will be.
Too much emphasis on "epic", "Iconic", "star-warsy" atmosphere, and not enough on actual gameplay. FFS, the "smuggler" class is "Based on han Solo"??
This is EXACTLY what LEC tried to do with SWG when the NGE was forced upon it.
I fail to see how a linear, pre-determined path makes for an MMORPG. Sure, there are some "choices" that can be made...that will take you along another linear, pre-determined path. The point is, all the options, all the choices, it's all pre-determined. There's NO freedom in hte game, only the illusion of freedom.
And how long before some web site pops up with all the "choices" mapped out in a nice little flow-chart so everyone ends up taking the "best" path anyway, making the whole system pointless?
Then what will we be left with?? An Iconic, Star-Warsy wow-clone with a different kind of grind.
So what happens when you reach max level on all 8 classes. I will not continue to play unless endgame has amazing PVP and Raids. Let's face it, they need something more than just amazing storyline to retain it's players because lets face it. Amazing story driven single player games are usually a 1 or 2 time play-through.
Based on what I've seen and heard I think SW:TOR will smell of fresh honey and nectarines...whilst tasteing of blueberry cheesecake.
What a depressing, defeatist, 'All Shall Have Prizes' attitude. I hope no developer of any studio takes any notice fo you.
There's a right way to enable epicness and a wrong way, imho. Requiring 10 hours of play every day to have an epic story is lame. On the other hand, an a tabletop Star Wars game, we were in a fight, blaster firing, and the bad guy was about to get away (he had just boarded his ship). So I spent a Destiny Point (very rare resource) to get me the extra movement to jump on the ship (and I made the check to jump in just as the door closed). I then had to deal with some blasters and grenades on the inside as I ran to the power core and shoved my lightsaber in it (and then run quick to an escape pod -- my character had engineering knowledge so he knew where to shove the lightsaber to make it go boom). Now, if they manage to make these character stories allow that kind of epic action, deeds that require quick thinking and guts to execute, then that would be made of pure win -- this is something no MMORPG has so far though.
Grinding is stupid. Being awesome should require that you BE AWESOME.
and that's where we keep running into problems.
Personally I agree...if you want to BE awesome, you should have to put the effort into actually kicking ass. Unfortunately what happens is the tools that shouldn't even be playing MMOs since they obviously don't have the time to do so ( "wah! I can only play an hour a day!! Wahh!!") don't think it's FAIR that just because they can't put in the effort, they can't kick ass.
IMO, you should reap what you sow. If you have time to put into the game, and therefore become better at the game, and have a stronger character, then obviously you should be stronger and more skillful (read: "better") than a player who only plays an hour per day.
Sadly, in an effort to get the sub $$ of these lamers with no time on their hands, the rest of us get buggered straight up the shitter by having our games dumbed down to the point where these slackers can compete.
So in essence, EVERYONE, with NO effort, becomes the "uber-l33t epic chosen one of awesomeness", which means that in realisty NO ONE can excel.
And before one of these "people", who I'm sure are lurking here even now jumps in with a recycled "e-peen" comment...let me just state that it's not about "e-peen", it's about having your efforts MEAN something....getting out what you put in. It's about the satisfaction of having hard work pay off, and the pride that comes with having accomplished something great.
But that's something that these people...who expect everythng to be handed to them on a platter... simply wouldn't understand.
Here's a really good article. For those interested.
www.mmogamer.com/06/11/2009/a-new-hope-for-mmos
and that's where we keep running into problems.
Personally I agree...if you want to BE awesome, you should have to put the effort into actually kicking ass. Unfortunately what happens is the tools that shouldn't even be playing MMOs since they obviously don't have the time to do so ( "wah! I can only play an hour a day!! Wahh!!") don't think it's FAIR that just because they can't put in the effort, they can't kick ass.
IMO, you should reap what you sow. If you have time to put into the game, and therefore become better at the game, and have a stronger character, then obviously you should be stronger and more skillful (read: "better") than a player who only plays an hour per day.
Sadly, in an effort to get the sub $$ of these lamers with no time on their hands, the rest of us get buggered straight up the shitter by having our games dumbed down to the point where these slackers can compete.
So in essence, EVERYONE, with NO effort, becomes the "uber-l33t epic chosen one of awesomeness", which means that in realisty NO ONE can excel.
And before one of these "people", who I'm sure are lurking here even now jumps in with a recycled "e-peen" comment...let me just state that it's not about "e-peen", it's about having your efforts MEAN something....getting out what you put in. It's about the satisfaction of having hard work pay off, and the pride that comes with having accomplished something great.
But that's something that these people...who expect everythng to be handed to them on a platter... simply wouldn't understand.
Well, there are two extremes, I think. The other one is composed of people who think if you merely spend a bunch of time playing, then you are entitled to being epic. Ideally, I think, epicness should be more about gutsy decisions you make and how much personal skill you have. Now time relates to that (though how much depends on the person and the game), but it isn't the primary factor.
It's highly amusing that there are so many whiners on these forums that are quick to complain that some new game is 'Just like WoW' or 'Just like EQ'. But when a company tries to do something DIFFERENT with a MMO and emphasize sinple-player storylines, then a whole new crop of whiners show up complaining that it's not a MMO because it's not following the tired, worn-out mechanics from MMOs in the past.
Guess what, innovation means something new. It means it's going to be different from what you've seen. It might be worse. Or maybe it just might be better.
Based on the fact that there has been a one MMO in the history of the entire genre that has reached sales comparable to games like Civilization, Halo, Diablo and the like, maybe it's time to throw out more of those old-school MMO mechanics for something new.
Exactly!! Its all about the end game!
Exactly!! Its all about the end game!
No, it isn't. The idea that the whole purpose of an MMO is the end-game is part of the problem. A very large part of the game is happens before "end-game" content shows up. That part needs to be fun and interestings on its own. It needs to be engaging. It should not be something that makes you think "how can I grind through this the quickest?". Naturally some people will have the mind-set no matter what, but the game shouldn't force that mindset on you. Frankly, if the game has a dozen or two pretty unique story-lines, then that's a lot of replay value on its own, IF the game is fun without end-game content.
Now, I am NOT saying there should be no end-game content. Far from it, there should be fun to be had if you max your level and do all the big story quests. The game should not make idiotic mistake of being "all about the end-game" though. We have enough of that silliness already.
so what your saying is we should praise inovation for the sake that its new?
Oh and old school MMO mechanics have been thrown out for a very long time.
I have never heard anyone in all my years of MMOGs (playing since before UO) say the reason they canceled there sub was there wasnt enough Single player like storys. I mean thats why people are tired of WoW, cause its not like a single player game.
Wasnt DDO and LoTR more story focues at the expense of those common mmog features that need to be thrown out.
But thats why they have low subs. Not enough cutscenes, voice overs and single player storylines.
Mmogs are meant to be played for 6 months to a year atleast. How many SP games you know that lasted a year? Sure theyll add updates every month. But how many SP games last a month? I can beat most in a matter of weeks. And a week if Im realy into the game.
If youve been following mmogs for awhile you see thru the marketing BS.
What they hype over and over is the focus of there development and its never as good as they say. When they say oh ya well have that feature but dont go into detail about it. It means its just a tossed in feature. And its done half assed
Hay ive seen it before and if some of you wanna drool over small vague info and hype up the game more than what it is thats your choice.
But ill let you know it never works out like you think. Look at WAR and DF to name a few. Alot of us have done this song and dance, weve played game after game heard all the marketing tricks.
And designing a game around a gimmick that has a lasting apeal of a few months doesnt work. But its there money just dont post a newsletter saying its the players fault that your game failed.
Quite so. Its probably been mentioned, but unless mmorpg.com is prepared to chop a lot of games off its list, it will probably have to change its url.
I don't think we're leaping to any mad assumptions here. Most of us are just aware of how the trend has developed.
I think the concern is fair: if this is another game where content is entirely soloable, and doesn't provide enough incentive for grouping up, people won't do it. WIthout a strong community of players who have reason to interact, people will not stick around. Its almost the only reason mmorpgs have gotten away with charging monthly subs.
Bioware has made great multiplayer games and even invented interesting new ways for players to interact with one-another. But would anyone have paid a monthly sub to play Neverwinter Nights? MMorpgs are different beasts.
Same old shit.
It sounds to me like what they're attempting is a multiplayer Mass Effect, which I would totally pay monthly for. Mass Effect is a hell of a game.
Are you talking about WAR? I thought so
2 things. 1 from what I've seen and heard, ToR being like a single RPG is not meant in a negative sense. It is meant to explain that the gameplay has a quality that so far only single players have displayed. That means that this game will not be about killing 10 rats in a field you share with other players who are also after the rats, but instead you'll be in an involving storyline, alone or with other players, with dialogue choice and with dept. That is something that is sorely lacking in todays MMO's, but of course if it doesn't work out we can always go back to the plethora of games where questing is still "kill 10 rats plz".
Secondly, Bioware has made clear that this game will have all the content you expect from an MMO including crafting, grouping, raiding and PVP. If it works out, then it will make every other mmo pale by comparison, as it will be an MMO that has everything that is enjoyable about MMO'ing yet cuts out the one element about MMO's that is still ancient and retarded, the questing which is replaced by storyline content that has the quality of a single player game and will thus be far more immersive and exciting.
Of course its too early to tell, but Bioware haven't dissapointed me so far.
^^ This, tbh.
What gets me is all the people already on the hate-train when it's not even in beta yet. Haven't seen it, have only heard descriptions of it and are automatically jumping to the worst possible assumptions about the game. Jaded bunch of folks IMO.
Personally? I'm hoping for the best and waiting (im)patiently for the game to go to beta and praying I get into beta to see what it's really like, first hand, as early as possible :)
agreed. As in all things, a balance is needed here, really. /played time, or months grinding / macroing skills shouldn't be the determining factor of "greatness".
You mention "gutsy decisions", and I can't help but equate that into "risk vs reward'...let the bold reap the fruit of their efforts, so to speak. Problem is, most modern MMO players don't want risk, they just want the rewards....and they want them "NOW!!" (with a stamping of the feet).
Lol, this is my favourite post this week. Maybe because I just discovered blueberry cheesecake flavoured ice-cream. Oh yes lol, it's true. What an apt metaphor for an exciting MMO prospect.
P.S. If you haven't tried this flavour of ice-cream, I highly recommend it. Now imagine playing TOR while eating this... I believe I've just come up with a wonderful plan for my life lol.
Just wanted to repost this incase anyone missed it.
Thanks, AOL! (Alienovrlord)
This game will blow all the other Western MMOs out of the market.
You accuse others of jumping to conclusions based on vague info and yet you are doing exactly the same thing.
"It's never as as good as they say" - you know this because....? Facts, not speculation.
"When they say .... we have that feature...its just a tossed in feature. And its done half assed" - you know this because....?
It's like you're annoyed that other people are looking forward to this game, and you feel it's your job to say "Stop getting worked up! This game will suck! I know this for a fact!"
You mean Western successes like AoC and WAR?
What besides WoW is a success in the West today.
EVE with it's 250k subs?
Nah!
WAR with it's 250k (might be even less) subs?
Nah!
250k subs might have been a success at the beginning of this decade but the amount of people that has a good internet connection have grown rapidly.
250k subs just doesn't cut it in this day and age.
SW:TOR might get a million subs.
Hooray!
Just another eleven million to go to be on par with the most successful online game out there.
BioWare sure got their work cut out for them.
There is alot of ignorance on these forums now a days it seems. People prejudging somthing they havin't even played before, or even saying that this game is going to blow blizzards WoW's sales out of the water... how long have you people been playing MMO's for?
I have been beta testing alot of MMO's for about 9 years now, and this year I had the oppurtunity to beta test some MMO's that are suppost to be comming out at the end of this year, and most of them are just terrible in my opinion. Things being copied and done over and over again, Crafting systems being ripped off from WoW and calling it their own .ect .ect
I hope this game is good, I really do. God knows how many terrible MMO's that have been comming out in the last 4 years. The game looks "nice", but you can't really judge it until you have played it. You guys should of learned that when Age of Conan came out and still you havin't learned anything. Anyone can put a couple of nice screenshots of a game and say it's new a revolutionary and people believe it, and eat it up, EVERYTIME. This is just as ignorant as when a politition comes out and says he's going to cut taxes and people vote for him, because they believe everything he is saying.
How stupid can you people be? Are you seriously that dumb?
Lol, this is my favourite post this week. Maybe because I just discovered blueberry cheesecake flavoured ice-cream. Oh yes lol, it's true. What an apt metaphor for an exciting MMO prospect.
P.S. If you haven't tried this flavour of ice-cream, I highly recommend it. Now imagine playing TOR while eating this... I believe I've just come up with a wonderful plan for my life lol.
I love blueberry cheesecake ice cream...in limited amounts of course...but if you ever run into Ben And Jerrys Pumpkin Cheesecake ...give it a try...tho I think it's limited..and might be pulled already. My statement...not only expresses ..ideally....my glee at the coming TOR....but ...on the opposite spectrum....how doom-speakers will come on...say something completely opinionated and outrageous...and not really support why they feel that way. Not all negative posters do this...but a large percentage...at least for this game.
Pfft, IF they had the ability/know-how to make "wow in space" then TOR might actually be a great MMO instead of the 'over hyped co-op on rails rehash of KOTOR' that it is looking more and more likely to be. This not an MMORPG it is an MORPG (Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game). Theres absolutely nothing massive about it. ~IMHO.
You mean Western successes like AoC and WAR?
What besides WoW is a success in the West today.
EVE with it's 250k subs?
Nah!
WAR with it's 250k (might be even less) subs?
Nah!
250k subs might have been a success at the beginning of this decade but the amount of people that has a good internet connection have grown rapidly.
250k subs just doesn't cut it in this day and age.
SW:TOR might get a million subs.
Hooray!
Just another eleven million to go to be on par with the most successful online game out there.
BioWare sure got their work cut out for them.
WoW had a good release and then steadily built on a strong foundation. They haven't done anything drastic to alienate most of their customers, they listen to consumer feedback (more than most). The expansions are polished and enjoyable. When they do screw-up, and people point this out, they tend to listen and do something helpful about it.
Meanwhile, the competitors have had horrible releases, have done massive revamps that have pissed off their player base, have ignored player input all too often, and have been experimenting with RMT business models designed to bleed their small game communitites dry.
To try to emulate WoW's success, others have tried to copy it. Sometimes they've rewritten live games (and killed them), other times they copied WoW right out of the gate, but done so poorly. You know what I think when I see everyone copying a certain game? "Damn that must be a good game." What does this make me want to play? WoW, not the cheap, broken immitations loaded down with RMT money traps.
If Bioware and LucasArts come up with a polished release of an enjoyable, innovative product, they'll have a solid foundation to build on. If they can avoid the errors that have caused numerous WoW-competitors to self-destruct, they may be able to build on their initial success. This is going to require patience and consistent attention to excellence in terms of development quality and customer service. Also, the business model will have to appear to be fair; not manipulative or deceptive.
I hope they succeed, because as polished as WoW is, I'm just not really into fantasy games. I'm more a fan of sci-fi or superhero games. That's what I grew up with ^_^.
No, it isn't. The idea that the whole purpose of an MMO is the end-game is part of the problem. A very large part of the game is happens before "end-game" content shows up. That part needs to be fun and interestings on its own. It needs to be engaging. It should not be something that makes you think "how can I grind through this the quickest?". Naturally some people will have the mind-set no matter what, but the game shouldn't force that mindset on you. Frankly, if the game has a dozen or two pretty unique story-lines, then that's a lot of replay value on its own, IF the game is fun without end-game content.
Now, I am NOT saying there should be no end-game content. Far from it, there should be fun to be had if you max your level and do all the big story quests. The game should not make idiotic mistake of being "all about the end-game" though. We have enough of that silliness already.
When I said about the end game I wasnt saying that the rest is not important! I always take my time to do the quests and I love to be immersed in the lore,but... what will happen when I finish the quests of my bounty hunter and I dont want to make more chars, and the End game sucks?? I have to leave...
Thats sort of an oxymoron. Unless its good 5-10 times through, its not an amazing story driven game. If they can truly have your actions affect the rest of your game, then depending on how its done, 5-10 would even be a low end estimate.
Story modifies choice -->choice modifies action -->action modifies Story -->
*raises hand* - with professional quality content advancing the storylines each month, hell yes.
Eventually we're gonna come full circle and get back to the one player / story driven mmorpg formula that got it right -
Asheron's Call.
*raises hand* - with professional quality content advancing the storylines each month, hell yes.
Eventually we're gonna come full circle and get back to the one player / story driven mmorpg formula
that got it right -
Asheron's Call.
Raids and PvP have already been confirmed... every TOR thread seems to be pushing the idea that there is a problem based purely on speculation and with all available evidence pointing in the other direction.
"The Old Republic looks and feels far more like a single player RPG than an MMO."
-throws up-
D:
“No one has made [story] the central pillar of the game as we have,”
I'm.. less interested now. I don't care one bit about story.. if I want to enjoy a good story i'll read a book. I want an MMO.. it worries me that the first thing everyone mentions is the "awesome storylines and great voices".
Question: is the game world linear? If the gameworld is a sandbox then I'll be re-interested.
One thing we know for certain is if SWtoR becomes the next WoW all the money won't be wasted on bailing out a mega corporation from bankruptcy (Vivendi), it will go to EA who actually will use the money to produce games, and better future content for SWtoR.
Hell if Bioware does things right you can have a couple alts at endgame and never run out of content cause you will be progressing several characters at the same time, Hell you could play them all if you are a hardcore gamer and experience all the story. Content updated would take you a ton of time to finish with al your alts.
People are extremely stupid, including myself on occasion. :) However, in this case I'm plain excited and the preview here, as well as the Deceived movie sure hit the right buttons for me. You know why? Because I am 38 and it is Star Wars!!!! I was what, 8 years old when the first movie came out, and there had just been nothing like it. For many people my age, Star Wars is just one of those formative pillars of culture that (for us) is hardwired and just hearing the music is enough to make me feel like a kid again!
So, of course it is exciting for many to see this game develop and it DOES seem on solid ground with Bioware etc. I was damn impressed by the Deceived video... just an excellent mix of lore and fast-paced action of very high quality.
You really cannot blame us for getting just a bit caught up... and hey, that's part of the enjoyment of something, the looking forward to bit, and the getting excited about it bit. So it is not stupidity, even if it does end in dissapointment for some.
*raises hand* - with professional quality content advancing the storylines each month, hell yes.
Eventually we're gonna come full circle and get back to the one player / story driven mmorpg formula that got it right -
Asheron's Call.
Me too probably.
The kinds of games Bioware makes tend to have conclusions for their lead characters (sometimes in the sequel). I suppose you have to conclude storylines to avoid your subject turning into a soapopera. How will this work with their MMO? Will you get to the end... and keep going?
and that's where we keep running into problems.
Personally I agree...if you want to BE awesome, you should have to put the effort into actually kicking ass. Unfortunately what happens is the tools that shouldn't even be playing MMOs since they obviously don't have the time to do so ( "wah! I can only play an hour a day!! Wahh!!") don't think it's FAIR that just because they can't put in the effort, they can't kick ass.
IMO, you should reap what you sow. If you have time to put into the game, and therefore become better at the game, and have a stronger character, then obviously you should be stronger and more skillful (read: "better") than a player who only plays an hour per day.
Sadly, in an effort to get the sub $$ of these lamers with no time on their hands, the rest of us get buggered straight up the shitter by having our games dumbed down to the point where these slackers can compete.
So in essence, EVERYONE, with NO effort, becomes the "uber-l33t epic chosen one of awesomeness", which means that in realisty NO ONE can excel.
And before one of these "people", who I'm sure are lurking here even now jumps in with a recycled "e-peen" comment...let me just state that it's not about "e-peen", it's about having your efforts MEAN something....getting out what you put in. It's about the satisfaction of having hard work pay off, and the pride that comes with having accomplished something great.
But that's something that these people...who expect everythng to be handed to them on a platter... simply wouldn't understand.
I think you have said everything I want to say about this causal "We dont have time to play!!! Wah!! Dumb the games down so we can reach the end in a couple of months and cry about having nothing to do cause everything was handed to you on a platter crowd. Its getting old, why should all MMOs be drawn down to the simple masses that think that the world revolves around THIER precious time? So what that only have a 1hr a day to play ? Then really you dont need to be playing MMOs then cause even 1hr of game time even for a single player game wont get you anywhere, time to move on to another recreational activity then, I also love the comments about people saying cause people have more playtime they have no life ?
My question is this what does someone that have a life do? Watch Tv? Doesnt meant you have a life.. Have Kids? Doesnt mean you have a life... Watch or Play Sports? Doesnt mean you have a life... excuses are what they are .. so the MMORPG genre has to be dumbed down for society just like TV the same people that watch the shite they keep on the air (ex. American Idol, Crime Dramas, Reality TV, Sitcoms) so its come to this the laziness and the greed has finally dominated the MMO indistry and the little people with no time with big dreams of being uber and iconic but not put any effort or spine into it. Its all about... "I DONT HAVE TIME TO PLAY THIS GAME BUT GIMME GIMEE GIMEE!!!" instant gratification generation. Its pathetic to no ends thankfully there are developers out there who look over this mass market of incompetents.
See, I kinda agree and disagree with you here.
Look, playing 80 hours standing in the same tedious dungeon killing the same things over and over to level doesn't mean you're a more serious player. Mostly, it means you're an idiot. Instant gratification is a bad idea, but so is mind-numblingly slowing things down just to appeal to so-called "hardcore" gamers. Look, I have a full time job, hobbies outside of MMOs, and (gasp! no way!) a girlfriend who I'd very soon like to marry. I don't want to be playing for years to get to the "good" content that developers dangle at the end of a long advanvement grind. And yes, note I don't use the word level. Just because your character doesn't have a level doesn't mean you aren't grinding somewhere. The numbers just show up in a different spot. So yes, in 3-6 months of playing a few hours here and there, I'd like to feel like I progressed. I don't want to hit the end of teh gamezorz and be like "now what?", but I also don't want to feel like I have years of playing like this before I get somewhere. There has to be a medium.
Back to this game..I'm hopeful. The story-driven, decision-tree quests that change the face of the mission sound good. Of course, a ton of other MMOs have promised me this and failed.
On the dark side (ha-ha), hey look, it's another game with two galvanizhed "good" and "evil" sides. And classes divided between them. Again, they're claiming I can work my butt off to make my trooper "evil" or my bounty hunter "good". But why should I? Why polarize it? Why does it have to be another Horde v. Alliance, Order v. Chaos scenario? Also, the classes are already starting to sound very atypical. The trooper is a semi-tank type with emphasis on heavy weapons and flexibility. BH's are trickester types, smuggelrs are rogues, god help us when the jedi come out.
And that's another concern. Everyone and their damn inbred cousin is gonna be a jedi, unless jedi are so weak that all the fun is taken out. They can't ever be in any SW game without throwing it out of whack.
See, I kinda agree and disagree with you here.
Look, playing 80 hours standing in the same tedious dungeon killing the same things over and over to level doesn't mean you're a more serious player. Mostly, it means you're an idiot. Instant gratification is a bad idea, but so is mind-numblingly slowing things down just to appeal to so-called "hardcore" gamers. Look, I have a full time job, hobbies outside of MMOs, and (gasp! no way!) a girlfriend who I'd very soon like to marry. I don't want to be playing for years to get to the "good" content that developers dangle at the end of a long advanvement grind. And yes, note I don't use the word level. Just because your character doesn't have a level doesn't mean you aren't grinding somewhere. The numbers just show up in a different spot. So yes, in 3-6 months of playing a few hours here and there, I'd like to feel like I progressed. I don't want to hit the end of teh gamezorz and be like "now what?", but I also don't want to feel like I have years of playing like this before I get somewhere. There has to be a medium.
Back to this game..I'm hopeful. The story-driven, decision-tree quests that change the face of the mission sound good. Of course, a ton of other MMOs have promised me this and failed.
On the dark side (ha-ha), hey look, it's another game with two galvanizhed "good" and "evil" sides. And classes divided between them. Again, they're claiming I can work my butt off to make my trooper "evil" or my bounty hunter "good". But why should I? Why polarize it? Why does it have to be another Horde v. Alliance, Order v. Chaos scenario? Also, the classes are already starting to sound very atypical. The trooper is a semi-tank type with emphasis on heavy weapons and flexibility. BH's are trickester types, smuggelrs are rogues, god help us when the jedi come out.
And that's another concern. Everyone and their damn inbred cousin is gonna be a jedi, unless jedi are so weak that all the fun is taken out. They can't ever be in any SW game without throwing it out of whack.
Out of the 200 members of my guild who are transfering over to this game if it turns out well, only 40 said they wanted to be jedi over the other confirmed classes. We will have to see when game goes live.
I just wanna say..."Awesome, and good luck with this promising MMO :)" I without a doubt will be paying attention to this game!
I have every respect for Bioware and I have no doubt that they will be able to create a fully story-driven online RPG in which a large number of people interact in the same gamespace. Whether that's something worth achieving, though, I have my doubts.
I actually come to MMORPGs specifically to get away from the tyranny of storyline. I've been reading fiction of all kinds, every day of my life since I was maybe six years old. I've been watching movies almost as long. Nearly half a century of narrative. I love it, but I already get enough of it.
I see MMO play as analagous both to craft hobbies like wood-carving or knitting, where many repetetive actions eventually build up to a completed object, and with open-ended activities like hiking or travelling. I don't really see MMOs being closely connected to the narrative form.
Single-player RPGs offer a fairly limited, awkward means of delivering a narrative. Bioware do that as well as anyone, but in my opinion even the very best CRPG ever made only approximates the narrative impact of a fair-to-middling movie or novel. Having to go through on-screen gaming activities (fighting, sneaking, puzzle-solving etc) in order to unlock each fragment of storyline doesn't seem to me to add anything, and often detracts. Surely it's better for narrative simply to turn the page or let the movie roll on?
In other MMOs that incorporate strong storylines (LotRO being the most obvious example), my personal choice has been to avoid the storyline elements as much as possible. If SW:TOR turns out to be so story-driven that avoiding the narrative is impractical, I'll probably end up just avoiding the whole game. Which would be a shame, as i'm certain it will be a new bench-mark in quality for online gaming.
I didn't want to say as much because I figured it would be -that- unpopular, but since you have, I have to totally agree with you.
Isn't one of the biggest problem in theme-park mmos the issue of a million Chosen Ones? A story that puts you at the centre of the universe, and then does the same for everyone else, is more likely to breed sociopathic entitlement issues than a community of diverse interests.
I do not want a story in an mmo either. The games that I've enjoyed the most are the ones that have had the least.
Sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh at this one. Since when is anything you do in a video game considered "Hard Work"? I suppose if you are designing/debugging the code, creating graphics, programming AI or something along those lines I would agree with you. Making a super-duper character does not constitute hard work, it means an individual has alot of spare time on his/her hands.
http://vhil.stanford.edu/pubs/2006/yee-psychology-mmorpg.pdf
Frankly, I will hold my opinion untill its on the shelves. It's much too easy too impress the masses of E3 if you ask me. There have been many MMO's that all fallen by the wayside that at E3 everyone predicted to be the next WoW Killer.
The more I read about this game the more I realize that it's going to be one massive theme park from start to finish. I love the idea of voice acting and the dialogue having an impact on my character but I can also see that the game doesn't offer anything that I won't get from buying Mass Effect 2 and saving the $60 for TOR plus the subscription fees.
I think you just put into words what was on my mind but I couldn't get it out. If anything I am really looking for the MMO that I play to allow me to create my own story and history. This is one of the reasons I enjoyed Eve Online as much as I did. Your "history" and "story" was something that you had a direct hand in creating. You had the background of your chosen race and after that you created the rest. If you added in other players you got the chance to create a group story. It doesn't sound to me like this is going to be the case in TOR. As you stated, your questing/leveling etc. will unlock your already pre-written story. We don't know anything about end game yet so I'm waiting/watching what they say about end game as this could be the decider for me. If there's nothing in the game that allows me the freedom to create a story of my own then I have no desire or need to play the game.
I quit playing MMO's a couple weeks ago, and I rarely check these boards. The MMO genre has grown stale, and the community is comprised of people I probably wouldn't even see or talk to in real life. But I've been a Bioware fan since KoToR came out and have played all of their games since. They've always done a good job telling a story, and making me feel like my choices made a difference. So I'm definitely looking forward to this game, and it doesn't bother me one bit that I can solo the entire story. That's coming from someone who used to group 100% of the time in DAoC in its early years, because the community was actually worth talking too.
Most likely because we have been getting, in the opinion of many, lackluster games with no real "keep players around for more than a few months" type production value over the last several years. There are quite a few folks, notably Rich Vogel and Gordon Walton, who are key players with the development of this game who have verbally championed the current template for making MMOs. Add to it the verbage they used when this game was announced ("iconic" was dropped alot; the same notorious word used for the NGE) and the "oh by the way" the "other MMOish features" are mentioned (and that Vogel admitted he didn't want crafting in at all initially until some junior dev pleaded to him to let him try out his idea that promised not to get in the way of being iconic or heroic)...
Well, it should be easy to see why not everyone is "gaga" over TOR. As far as being unique goes with respect to character, it'll be hardly the case. Sure, players get choices, but per each class at each "choice point", there are only a limited number of options. Exhausting all possible "combinations" per a given class would most likely take not more than a couple thousand people. That and from what they have spoken about it does sound pretty much that you follow the storyline put before you and if you want to do something different you role another class. Personally, I'm not an altoholic so that doesn't sound enticing to me at all. I'd much rather have a wealth of very detailed, very robust to the point they could be considered games within the game options to choose from and available to the character race/class I want to be in SW.
*shrug* To each their own.
Well I'm not bothered by it at all. Look at the type of people who raid. The serious raiders that get anywhere spend their lives raiding. It's an obsessive and unhealthy life-style, in which I want no part of. The type of people that you'd likely not associate with in real life, or would want to rely on at work, or to watch your back in a war. I prefer healthy individuals, who are responsible. The old MMO formula didn't promote those types of people, so you're left playing with dysfunctional people, which doesn't exactly enhance your own life outside the game. PvPers are even worse, because not only are they obsessive, but they're also overly confrontational, rude, and immature. Crafters, especially in SWG were never a problem. They tend to be the more mature types, maybe because it takes patience to stick with crafting. But anyways, my point is that the majority of people playing MMO's are not the type of people a healthy individual would really want to associate with and the reason the genre attracts those types of people is because of the addictive and obsessive natures it takes to succeed in those games. So if Bioware is making a SPG online, with the ability to party up and play with others through their stories, that's good enough for me. That allows people to play through a good story at their own pace, without any pressures to stay in the game longer than is healthy. You also aren't exposed to the degenerates that play in this genre.
I know I sound pretty critical of the community, but a real unbiased analysis of the personalities you have playing the genre will prove that I'm right. There are always exceptions, but think about how many respectable and responsible people who are socially and professionally successful, and happy, that play these games and are successful at them. Meaning, they are able to see everything the game has to offer. You probably won't find many, because most of the people who play in the genre...oh forget it. I'm just going to rant on and get myself in trouble. To each their own, like you said, but I don't see this as a bad thing.
I don't recall Blizzard having a very good release at all with WoW. Subscription issues, server problems, infrastructure quirks and more. I even remember being glad I didn't work for their customer support for the first few months after release. They even still have some issues with patches within the first day or two of it's release (often technical due to load)
For example, see (just to list a few):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Warcraft (lists some release problems)
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/world-of-warcraft/582134p1.html (20 of 88 servers down)
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/wow-patch-beset-with-problems (2009 patch problems)
http://news.cnet.com/World-of-Warcraft-battles-server-problems/2100-1043_3-6063990.html (2006 patch problems)
Part of the problem is that after so many years a game like WoW is very well established, has most of the kinks worked out and is pretty stable. Most new releases are in the same state as Wow (or better/worse) was at release, it's just that people expect a full, complete, and stable game nowadays. I'm not saying it's unreasonable to ask; just that the standard has been raised a lot higher than it was early 2000's. I don't want to pay $15 per month to play a beta release either.
People are extremely stupid, including myself on occasion. :) However, in this case I'm plain excited and the preview here, as well as the Deceived movie sure hit the right buttons for me. You know why? Because I am 38 and it is Star Wars!!!! I was what, 8 years old when the first movie came out, and there had just been nothing like it. For many people my age, Star Wars is just one of those formative pillars of culture that (for us) is hardwired and just hearing the music is enough to make me feel like a kid again!
So, of course it is exciting for many to see this game develop and it DOES seem on solid ground with Bioware etc. I was damn impressed by the Deceived video... just an excellent mix of lore and fast-paced action of very high quality.
You really cannot blame us for getting just a bit caught up... and hey, that's part of the enjoyment of something, the looking forward to bit, and the getting excited about it bit. So it is not stupidity, even if it does end in dissapointment for some.
I agree with you, and see what your saying my friend. I'm 29 years old myself, and I am looking forward to this game as well. I am a big starwars fan just like you. But I also know to not get too caught up in the propaganda of these advertisments, because you may be very dissapointed if you find out it is somthing differn't then what you had originally perceived. I don't get caught up in all the hype anymore like I used too because I learned from it. Bioware has made some great games in the past, but with this game they have a big challange and I don't think people really understand how much of a challange they really have on their hands. It is a very big responsobility, and I hope Bioware can pull it off. They have some really talented people on their development team, and I respect them from their past games, but at the same time I can't assume that this game is going to be just as great as their previous games. This is their first MMO they have worked on. To prejudge this game is complete ignorance, because anyone can make a game look great when it comes to advertisments.
Everyone that was actually able to see the game in action at E3 has had nothing but great things to say, so those are the only opinions that matter to me. While the general public may not have any gameplay footage to see right now, the people that were at E3 did and they were all impressed with it. This type of game isn't going to appeal to everyone, but what game does? All I know is that from everything that I've heard from people that actually know what they're talking about, this is a game that I'm really looking forward to. If you like the WoW/EQ style of MMORPG's then there are plenty of those out there on the market already. I'm not a fan of them. I want an MMORPG with more depth and detail and Bioware is at least trying to create that type of game. Maybe they'll succeed and maybe they won't but I give them a lot of credit for trying to stand out and do something unique instead of being yet another clone.
I left FFXI most definitely because of the lack of single player content post level 15 and the required forced grouping.
I left LOTRO at level 35 because my quest list was nothing but group quests (they have since tried to address this).
I left EQ2 at the end of beta because of its lack of solo content, and the required forced grouping.
Watching the E3 2009 show via xplay and watching the much anticipated Bioware's upcomming MMO SW:TOR was awesome but was sadly dispointed when they gave the impression it will be geared toward those who are not part of the Deaf/Hearing-impaired community.
A major problem that Bioware needs to fix or address as soon as possible or they going to lose a major portion of the Star Wars Fan Based Community.
I myself am part of the Deaf/Hearing-impaired community and myself and many of my friends will find it hard to play in a MMO that does not have any type of subtitles in place of voice.
Sad reality is that lot of MMO developers totally ignores or discriminate against the Deaf/Hearing-impaired community thinking they would not be interested in playing a MMO, what these same devs do not realize that a small percentage of the communtity are either retired or war vets who lost their hearing and love playing MMO's but tend to cancel thier accounts when they find out that MMO CSR's are totally hostile toward the Deaf/Hearing-impaired community.
As with Mass Effect, you can bet there will be toggle for displaying subtitles.
As with Mass Effect, you can bet there will be toggle for displaying subtitles.
It's already been confirmed.
This is were I completely lost any small hope I had for this game.
I couldnt care less about a (well-made) single player game with some sort of online features attached to it!
/facepalm
/rant over
I left FFXI most definitely because of the lack of single player content post level 15 and the required forced grouping.
I left LOTRO at level 35 because my quest list was nothing but group quests (they have since tried to address this).
I left EQ2 at the end of beta because of its lack of solo content, and the required forced grouping.
I like to add some more games in my experience that I quit because of forced grouping...
City of Villians, while it was a fun and kick ass game, beautiful graphics with lots of bells and whistles, I had to quit because to even level at a remotely normal pace, you had to group up. This was painful because it took so long to get a group together...and not only that but it took even longer to find a good group and keep them together long enough to get a worthwhile amount of experience from. Some nights it was impossible to find poeple to group with and I was basically paying to ask others to group with me so I could play a game I was paying for.
I quit WoW when I first played it back when BC first came out because, same thing, back then nobody was was my level, everyone was out leveling to 70 while I was just level 10. Back then after a certain point most of my quest log was group quests and I sucked too much to attempt to solo them so I quit but I did go back later when they upped the XP per quests or lowered XP to level and soloing was easy since grouped quests were no longer needed to gain levels to move onto a new zone.
I'm a fan of solo play, I set my own play schedule, I can stop when I feel like it and not worry about pissing off my group. I do however, enjoy group quests, like in WoW, 5-man instances, they can be fun with a good group. I especially like other players, especially in a Star Wars setting, because it gives my Bounty Hunter a target to shoot at
I like to add some more games in my experience that I quit because of forced grouping...
City of Villians, while it was a fun and kick ass game, beautiful graphics with lots of bells and whistles, I had to quit because to even level at a remotely normal pace, you had to group up. This was painful because it took so long to get a group together...and not only that but it took even longer to find a good group and keep them together long enough to get a worthwhile amount of experience from. Some nights it was impossible to find poeple to group with and I was basically paying to ask others to group with me so I could play a game I was paying for.
I quit WoW when I first played it back when BC first came out because, same thing, back then nobody was was my level, everyone was out leveling to 70 while I was just level 10. Back then after a certain point most of my quest log was group quests and I sucked too much to attempt to solo them so I quit but I did go back later when they upped the XP per quests or lowered XP to level and soloing was easy since grouped quests were no longer needed to gain levels to move onto a new zone.
I'm a fan of solo play, I set my own play schedule, I can stop when I feel like it and not worry about pissing off my group. I do however, enjoy group quests, like in WoW, 5-man instances, they can be fun with a good group. I especially like other players, especially in a Star Wars setting, because it gives my Bounty Hunter a target to shoot at
Umm... CoX and WoW are EXTREMELY solo-friendly. In fact, it's one of the gripes that the people who "need" a team yell about. Hell, the reason why it's so hard to get a team in CoX is because most people are soloing! [Or with their guilds] It's one of the best reasons to play a Mastermind. You have your own team on-hand, you never have to worry about LFG. Trust me, I solo 99% when I play games. Like you said, I don't intend to pay money to play a game at some stranger's pace.
I don't think any company wants to alienate ANYONE from playing their games, after all, they're in it for money. So it isn't like they're actively trying to force people with disabilities out. Sometimes there's ignorance of the issues people have (color blindness is another big one).
But in regards to the voice acting complaint, I can see how it might rankle to not be able to get the full effect of the game as it was intended, but I'll tell you what usually happens in any game that has a lot of voice acting (and I'm hardly alone):
It gets turned OFF.
I'd MUCH rather NOT hear the same voice actors say the same things over and over again driving me insane. Same thing happens to the "music" in these games. I might listen to it for a little while, but in the end, off it goes. Not to mention in a game where people will group with others using things like teamspeak or ventrilo, you don't want a sound activated mic to trigger off of every mob's speech, lol, you'd irritate everyone in your group/raid really quick.
I tend to play all my MMO's with ALL sounds even turned down for that reason. Plus I can hear what's going on in my "real" world, especially when I'm babysitting a bunch of rowdy nephews. Or I can listen to my own music.
I wonder how they going to implement the concept of all the classes being utilized in raids for example and balance them for PvP. Is smuggler going to hide behind rocks while shooting at the beast or some PvP opponent? Or trooper will be roughly called a "nuker" in comparison to other MMOs and Jedi will become a tank again like in old SWG.
To be honest I am sick of all these templates, all these "paths" of progress they give us. Sick and tired. Been there done that, how many more times, come on. Can't someone finally make a game that is really fun and that is not following footsteps of every other game we've played and hated for the similar setup of redundant and boring game play, where you're squeezed into a choice between to be a tank or a nuker.
Or all the devs are like cave men, repeating each other like brainless idiots, excuse me for being too harsh. Can someone finally take a responsibility and risk out with a new game play mechanics where we don't need to count our levels and measure each others pen*ses based on what color of rarity it is? All these MMOs have become so DUMB its not even funny. No matter what, every damn game makes it all about loot and its rarity. ENOUGH ALREADY! MAKE SOMETHING THAT DESERVES TO STICK WITH!
I hold my fingers crossed for SWToR. I am already excited about all the promises they make and the concept of role play being worked on and payed much attention to. I just hope they deliver it. And don't create a hype to lure players in and get stuck on a loot rampage again. SWG was a great game. NGE killed the fun for many players by forcing them into a stupid template choice. I hope that SWToR will have some variety and customization choices and not dumbed down to only button mashing. I really hope that every class will be very unique and interesting on its own. When I think about them saying Raiding and PvP I am kinda getting concerned. Because when it gets to PvP and raiding thats what destroys the unique characteristcs of potentially interesting classes.
Yes, you are correct, CoX and WoW are solo-friendly....kind of imo. Back in earlier version of WoW, groups made leveling faster and solo was mind numbing to me because of no self heals exepct for pots which were expensive or food which dragged the game on. However, new WoW is way way easier to solo, groups are after thoughts when leveling now.
CoX was solo friendly but it would take you eons to max your level and you could not run instances, the 5-mans, on your own but those you want to be in a group anyways for the fun. I'm just saying about CoX is that you need a group to level at a reasonable rate or you'd take many months (us non-MMs) to solo your way to max level.
Yes, you are correct, CoX and WoW are solo-friendly....kind of imo. Back in earlier version of WoW, groups made leveling faster and solo was mind numbing to me because of no self heals exepct for pots which were expensive or food which dragged the game on. However, new WoW is way way easier to solo, groups are after thoughts when leveling now.
CoX was solo friendly but it would take you eons to max your level and you could not run instances, the 5-mans, on your own but those you want to be in a group anyways for the fun. I'm just saying about CoX is that you need a group to level at a reasonable rate or you'd take many months (us non-MMs) to solo your way to max level.
Hey, they have to balance everything for solo and team play. That's how it is. If you want "speed" then you'll need a group. But if you want to solo, the option is there. As long as you realize that the people with reliable groups will end up at max level faster than you. I, however, could care less about leveling speed. It can be done. That's all I care about. I'll find a way to win on my own. The only time I have really needless deaths are when I group. And that's aside from all the other irritating pit-falls of grouping.
What odd to me is people whining about it being storybased as if the story was being written from anyone other than Bioware. Bioware has the uncanny ability of making a linear single player RPG -feel- nonlinear by dialog and choices. Which is why even when all we knew was that Bioware was making an MMO, I was stoked. You're dealing with some of the most consistantly talented writers in the industry, so it's nice to see the company coming up front and saying "We're building this game centered around our strengths and that will make it significantly different from any other in the market in the same sense that our single player games are significantly different from any other in the market."
Asking anything else out of Bioware's first MMO attempt is just ridiculous. And if you've not had the pleasure of playing through a Bioware game, I suggest at least Knights of the Old Republic to get caught up on the story.
The problem i see is that a typical single-player RPG has maybe 20 hours of gameplay. While a typical MMO may be played for hundreds of hours total.
That's why i'm very skeptical about the whole "it's fully voiced" and "more like a single-player game" content.
How much of that type of content will they have available really ? At what rate will they be able to add new equal quality content to justify a subscription ?
I mean it's very possible that one month from release everyone finishes the super-awesome main storyline and is sitting bored on their asses with nothing to do, growing nostalgic for the "collect 20 boar intestines" type-quests of other games.