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Mortal Online Forum » General Discussion » How Is The Population On Mortal Online? I Have Played A Bit

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48 posts found
  Toferio

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1460

10/23/13 4:21:20 AM#41
Originally posted by Zeeraha
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Zeeraha
Originally posted by argirop
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by argirop
Originally posted by Zeeraha

4th employee is LGM Discord. Their current development structure model is that they hire external sources (companies and individuals) to develop content, which also partially includes necessary coding. New continent is being already developed externally at this moment, I believe. Also, Henrik announced recently that they will do ingame asset cleanup/update (NPC placement, entity placement, map and art polishing) by external developer. This is separated from latest animations/chartextures donation goal.

I thought you said that it needs a learning curve of 6 months for a dev to be familiar with Sebastian's "advanced" code.But it seems that external (companies and individuals) sources can workaround that learning curve... 

Having actual programming experience does magic. 

But that was their excuse for NOT hiring any professional developers... 

External developers do not code core game mechanics, MMO platform, nor UE modification. They can submit 3D art, built some supportive mechanics like flash UI that is implemented over the top of core code, even network solution can be outsourced. Henrik recently in MO forums stated that they are looking for inhouse coder. Inhouse coder integrates external solutions and codes core mechanics. Touching the core code is very sensitive and that's why it is hard to train that kind of coder.

I call the usual SV bullshit on that one. Any coder that is worth his salt will be able to pick up someone else's program quick enough, given that it is well structured and commented. That's most likely the issue, their code is a mess, not that it is sensitive and advanced. 

Unfortunately, it is not bullshit. I work on development of larger service platforms and we rely upon our own coders and external support at the same time. For our company it takes more than 6 months to introduce experienced programmer to handle API communication between own and external services. This does not include time to actually search for programmer. We are dealing with million of residential customers. Would you trust anyone prying open a platform, who got employed few months ago?

These are serious questions and when it comes to sensitive systems it is not easy to make fast decisions about trusting someone. SV had problems with own internal developers at launch, after they got burned, now they are blowing on cold.

Interesting. I can understand being careful about large service platforms, but game programming? I've been part of multiplayer projects and while it is not same thing as a a fullscale mmo, I couldn't imagine it taking half a year to be efficient in the code. It is a generic RPG, after all, using many solutions similar to other games. 

  Zeeraha

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/12
Posts: 68

10/24/13 6:24:56 AM#42
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Zeeraha
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Zeeraha
Originally posted by argirop
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by argirop
Originally posted by Zeeraha

4th employee is LGM Discord. Their current development structure model is that they hire external sources (companies and individuals) to develop content, which also partially includes necessary coding. New continent is being already developed externally at this moment, I believe. Also, Henrik announced recently that they will do ingame asset cleanup/update (NPC placement, entity placement, map and art polishing) by external developer. This is separated from latest animations/chartextures donation goal.

I thought you said that it needs a learning curve of 6 months for a dev to be familiar with Sebastian's "advanced" code.But it seems that external (companies and individuals) sources can workaround that learning curve... 

Having actual programming experience does magic. 

But that was their excuse for NOT hiring any professional developers... 

External developers do not code core game mechanics, MMO platform, nor UE modification. They can submit 3D art, built some supportive mechanics like flash UI that is implemented over the top of core code, even network solution can be outsourced. Henrik recently in MO forums stated that they are looking for inhouse coder. Inhouse coder integrates external solutions and codes core mechanics. Touching the core code is very sensitive and that's why it is hard to train that kind of coder.

I call the usual SV bullshit on that one. Any coder that is worth his salt will be able to pick up someone else's program quick enough, given that it is well structured and commented. That's most likely the issue, their code is a mess, not that it is sensitive and advanced. 

Unfortunately, it is not bullshit. I work on development of larger service platforms and we rely upon our own coders and external support at the same time. For our company it takes more than 6 months to introduce experienced programmer to handle API communication between own and external services. This does not include time to actually search for programmer. We are dealing with million of residential customers. Would you trust anyone prying open a platform, who got employed few months ago?

These are serious questions and when it comes to sensitive systems it is not easy to make fast decisions about trusting someone. SV had problems with own internal developers at launch, after they got burned, now they are blowing on cold.

Interesting. I can understand being careful about large service platforms, but game programming? I've been part of multiplayer projects and while it is not same thing as a a fullscale mmo, I couldn't imagine it taking half a year to be efficient in the code. It is a generic RPG, after all, using many solutions similar to other games. 

I think in SV's case it is more issue of risk handling. Although SV does not have many subs (around 2000), they are quite sensitive to not lose those subs. If core system falls due to even one line of code which is missing "free memory" command (I experienced it in one older project), whole server could go down after x amount of time online, without devs knowing the exact cause (it could be only a leak on reserved memory for one small process), only after extensive search while wasting precise time. This was only exagerated example. 

  Anubisan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/09/05
Posts: 1834

10/24/13 6:15:38 PM#43
MMORPGs are by far the most complicated type of game to program. There is nothing else that comes anywhere close. And gamers are not any more tolerant of problems than consumers of other software... in fact they are less so in most cases.
  Slapshot1188

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4186

10/24/13 6:43:28 PM#44
Originally posted by Anubisan
MMORPGs are by far the most complicated type of game to program. There is nothing else that comes anywhere close.

Which is why, given the lack of experience the developers had... the result was a foregone conclusion.

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  black777

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/31/04
Posts: 100

10/24/13 6:48:31 PM#45

The answer is : Dead.

 

 

Move along.

  aRtFuLThinG

Elite Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1087

10/24/13 9:25:31 PM#46
Originally posted by Zeeraha

I think in SV's case it is more issue of risk handling. Although SV does not have many subs (around 2000), they are quite sensitive to not lose those subs. If core system falls due to even one line of code which is missing "free memory" command (I experienced it in one older project), whole server could go down after x amount of time online, without devs knowing the exact cause (it could be only a leak on reserved memory for one small process), only after extensive search while wasting precise time. This was only exagerated example. 

All these technical details aside, the BIGGER question is how can SV possibility afford a decent programmer, whether it is per job or perm basis?

 

As someone said before 2k subs they earn monthly around $30k not including borrowed money and donations.

 

$30K split between the already existing staffs, bosses own takings, cost of maintaining hardware, connections, power bills, etc... how much can they possibly have left for a coder monthly? $2k? $3k?

 

Dude you can't even get a level 1 Tech Support at $2k-$3k before tax... that's lower than/close to the mimimum wage. You can't get coder of ANY ability for that price.

 

If outsource is even MORE expensive. $2-$3k a month almost quite certainly can't get contractors/freelancers that is any good. The reason why people go freelance/contract is to make MORE money, not LESS.

  deathshroud

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/10
Posts: 1392

10/25/13 11:21:08 AM#47
Originally posted by Slapshot1188
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Zeeraha
 

I popped in again on Friday and Saturday evening Central EU time. Tindrem bank seemed really decently populated, I counted 20 people + around 5 people per each district and graveyard was really crowded, which makes game feel quite a live. 

Few dozens in the capital is your definition of crowded? Everything's relative, I guess.. =/

Exactly...

 

Unfortunately the game has NEVER had the population required to sustain it.  This has been since it  launched over 3 years ago.  They have very brief spikes when they put out a patch (usually named an expansion) but have never, EVER been able to sustain growth.

 

They have managed to dodge death by borrowing money, getting donations from fans and recently investment from 3rd parties.  None of which would have to happen if the population was thriving.  Heck, a DEV in DFUW recently said they had 20 THOUSAND subs and needed more (I think he said 15k more) to be profitable and support a large enough team to crank out improvements and content.  As you can see from their financials, SV has roughly 1/10th of that...

 

well technically the game code has never been able to support the kind of population required to support the game, when your game can only render about 60 people in any 1 node at once you know you have problems.

there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.

  Zeeraha

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/12
Posts: 68

10/25/13 3:57:33 PM#48
Originally posted by aRtFuLThinG
Originally posted by Zeeraha

I think in SV's case it is more issue of risk handling. Although SV does not have many subs (around 2000), they are quite sensitive to not lose those subs. If core system falls due to even one line of code which is missing "free memory" command (I experienced it in one older project), whole server could go down after x amount of time online, without devs knowing the exact cause (it could be only a leak on reserved memory for one small process), only after extensive search while wasting precise time. This was only exagerated example. 

All these technical details aside, the BIGGER question is how can SV possibility afford a decent programmer, whether it is per job or perm basis?

 

As someone said before 2k subs they earn monthly around $30k not including borrowed money and donations.

 

$30K split between the already existing staffs, bosses own takings, cost of maintaining hardware, connections, power bills, etc... how much can they possibly have left for a coder monthly? $2k? $3k?

 

Dude you can't even get a level 1 Tech Support at $2k-$3k before tax... that's lower than/close to the mimimum wage. You can't get coder of ANY ability for that price.

 

If outsource is even MORE expensive. $2-$3k a month almost quite certainly can't get contractors/freelancers that is any good. The reason why people go freelance/contract is to make MORE money, not LESS.

Henrik recently on MO forums posted they are looking for a new coder. I would assume they will finance him/her from the latest 400K$ investment, by my calculations I posted on MO forums that it would be around 60K$ per year, Henrik did not dispute this info. Subs are not main MO's source of financing long time ago.  

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