Mortal Online Forum » General Discussion » 100% first person view in an MMO just does not work...

Originally posted by marcust

I'm a fan of the MO team but unfortunately I have to agree with the OP.

 

FPv works just fine cause of foot steps sounds even tho it hink it needs lil wider view in front

Eh, to each his own.

To me, the FPV is wonderful but will take some getting used to in an MMO. Ive played Oblivion and i think that FP melee works great and is very immersive. You feel like you are in the fight and not just controlling your avatar. This is a turn on for me; i like to be in the action. Of course, i have never played MO and i am judging the melee experience off of videos and my experience playing other FP melee games, not through MO gameplay experience. Also, the game is not finished yet, and im not going to kick the game until it has had a chance to stand up. I do agree with the OP about how the FPV makes this game less apealing to many people and puts it in the category of a niche game. Well, thats what the developers are going for and im pretty sure they see the detramental effects that FPV has on their game even more so than the good stuff, Immersion being the main good thing. At this point, the FPV has set in with me and im used to the idea and am excited, So wait a couple of months, rent oblivion if you havent played it, and see if your view changes. If not, to each his own.

FPV works out pretty good, however, i dont think its a good idea to have it unless you are gonna go all the way and give ppl necks as well. Its annoying to have to stop gathering whatever resources you are gathering to look behind you because you cant just look over your shoulder... its not a hard thing to implement just make it shift held or something. Doing FPV without putting in some soft of neck turning feature is lazy

I've not played this game, nor have I read much about it. The first person view in an MMO caught my attention though. To me all I can say is: FINALLY! Immersion, immersion, immersion. If they can figure out how to rework combat systems, timing, and make an FPV MMO, then kudos to them and I may try playing it.

I don't care if third person is easier, it's just that - easier. First person does something for players and adds a whole new depth to a game. First person makes the world look much bigger, everything because size oriented from the player's perspective, which is the character's perspective. Rather than playing quasi-god over a character running around and being able to essentially point and finger what is happening around them like they have a 6th sense that no one in the world has and making the game seem smaller itself by pulling away from the up close details. The designers probably thought through many different scenarios when doing this.

Oblivion strictly in first person I found it incredibly enjoyable and really loved it. I tried WoW in third person but just couldn't due to the need to run 3rd person alongside everyone else. I think this has real potential, but has to be done properly. This is a matter of opinion and taste as well. Not everyone will enjoy it, but I am one of those who would.

 FPV and 3rdPV are both a feature of a game, there will ppl liking it and hating it, as every other feature of a game. The thing for a FPV to really work in a MMO is to made it mandatory, otherwise for competition purposes all will be using the easier to play 3rd person view.

Personally I like both mechanics, but they feel really different. Give it a try, if you dont like it just drop it, it wont be the first MMO that you dont like >)

edit: i also agree that vision should be wider in FPV at least in the released games that use it.

I don't like the FPV. It would be nice to have the option to switch.

Originally posted by Polarisation

The main reason why FP-only view doesn't work is that in real-life, we all have peripheral vision allowing us to perceive motion and limited detail out to almost 180 degree frontal arc. FP view necessarily retricts the viewing arc to closer to 90 degrees, or as in MO's case, extends a bit further, resulting in the (IMO, disturbing) "fish-eye" effect seen in MO videos.

The problem is that 3rd person view allows much more than can be attributed to real-life peripheral vision - it allows 360 degree vision.

So, in a game that is trying to simulate more realistic views, with stealth not necessarily being more akin to magical invisibility, which affront to realism is the greater sin?

Personally, I'm all for the permanent FPV.  It'll take some getting used to, but that's only because it's different from the MMO norm, not because it is less "realistic" than 3rd person.

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Originally posted by Rohn

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Originally posted by Polarisation

The main reason why FP-only view doesn't work is that in real-life, we all have peripheral vision allowing us to perceive motion and limited detail out to almost 180 degree frontal arc. FP view necessarily retricts the viewing arc to closer to 90 degrees, or as in MO's case, extends a bit further, resulting in the (IMO, disturbing) "fish-eye" effect seen in MO videos.

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The problem is that 3rd person view allows much more than can be attributed to real-life peripheral vision - it allows 360 degree vision.
So, in a game that is trying to simulate more realistic views, with stealth not necessarily being more akin to magical invisibility, which affront to realism is the greater sin?
Personally, I'm all for the permanent FPV.  It'll take some getting used to, but that's only because it's different from the MMO norm, not because it is less "realistic" than 3rd person.

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First person in a game has been proven to lack the real vision a human would have also. It would seem 180 degrees, but it is more like 130. You also lack the inherant senses that one would have if something was moving out of the field of vision. So how do you balance it in a game setting?

But at least I can agree with the 3rd person being too much field of vision sometimes.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

 

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Originally posted by Rohn

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Originally posted by Polarisation

 

The main reason why FP-only view doesn't work is that in real-life, we all have peripheral vision allowing us to perceive motion and limited detail out to almost 180 degree frontal arc. FP view necessarily retricts the viewing arc to closer to 90 degrees, or as in MO's case, extends a bit further, resulting in the (IMO, disturbing) "fish-eye" effect seen in MO videos.

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The problem is that 3rd person view allows much more than can be attributed to real-life peripheral vision - it allows 360 degree vision.
So, in a game that is trying to simulate more realistic views, with stealth not necessarily being more akin to magical invisibility, which affront to realism is the greater sin?
Personally, I'm all for the permanent FPV.  It'll take some getting used to, but that's only because it's different from the MMO norm, not because it is less "realistic" than 3rd person.

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First person in a game has been proven to lack the real vision a human would have also. It would seem 180 degrees, but it is more like 130. You also lack the inherant senses that one would have if something was moving out of the field of vision. So how do you balance it in a game setting?

But at least I can agree with the 3rd person being too much field of vision sometimes.
 

I believe that with the current technologies commonly available, it's not feasible to balance the two (without doing some really wierd/disorienting things on the computer screen).

So, it's going to come down to personal preference.  At least by locking it into FPV only for everyone, it ensures that all players will be playing under uniform conditions.

As I said before, I think that FPV will take time to adjust to, and some people may not ever like it, but it certainly doesn't make the game unplayable.  It's also not any less realistic than the God's-Eye view of 3rd person.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

 

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Originally posted by Rohn

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Originally posted by Polarisation

 

The main reason why FP-only view doesn't work is that in real-life, we all have peripheral vision allowing us to perceive motion and limited detail out to almost 180 degree frontal arc. FP view necessarily retricts the viewing arc to closer to 90 degrees, or as in MO's case, extends a bit further, resulting in the (IMO, disturbing) "fish-eye" effect seen in MO videos.

---

 
The problem is that 3rd person view allows much more than can be attributed to real-life peripheral vision - it allows 360 degree vision.
So, in a game that is trying to simulate more realistic views, with stealth not necessarily being more akin to magical invisibility, which affront to realism is the greater sin?
Personally, I'm all for the permanent FPV.  It'll take some getting used to, but that's only because it's different from the MMO norm, not because it is less "realistic" than 3rd person.

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First person in a game has been proven to lack the real vision a human would have also. It would seem 180 degrees, but it is more like 130. You also lack the inherant senses that one would have if something was moving out of the field of vision. So how do you balance it in a game setting?

But at least I can agree with the 3rd person being too much field of vision sometimes.

I agree. Thats why I always want a game to go for a compromise, like 3rd person (camera looking over shoulder) with very limited zoom out.

Originally posted by someforumguy

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

 

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Originally posted by Rohn

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Originally posted by Polarisation

 

The main reason why FP-only view doesn't work is that in real-life, we all have peripheral vision allowing us to perceive motion and limited detail out to almost 180 degree frontal arc. FP view necessarily retricts the viewing arc to closer to 90 degrees, or as in MO's case, extends a bit further, resulting in the (IMO, disturbing) "fish-eye" effect seen in MO videos.

---

 
The problem is that 3rd person view allows much more than can be attributed to real-life peripheral vision - it allows 360 degree vision.
So, in a game that is trying to simulate more realistic views, with stealth not necessarily being more akin to magical invisibility, which affront to realism is the greater sin?
Personally, I'm all for the permanent FPV.  It'll take some getting used to, but that's only because it's different from the MMO norm, not because it is less "realistic" than 3rd person.

---

 

First person in a game has been proven to lack the real vision a human would have also. It would seem 180 degrees, but it is more like 130. You also lack the inherant senses that one would have if something was moving out of the field of vision. So how do you balance it in a game setting?

But at least I can agree with the 3rd person being too much field of vision sometimes.

I agree. Thats why I always want a game to go for a compromise, like 3rd person (camera looking over shoulder) with very limited zoom out.

Realistically, that's probably the closest thing to a compromise there is.  Still, the more you limit the zoom-out, the more "view" will be blocked by your character's body on the screen.  That would probably be even more annoying over the long haul.  A very limited pull-back wouldn't probably add much peripheral vision either.

I'll try that tonight in my current game (scrolled back a limited amount), to see how it looks and plays.

I still think that FPV is the closest to "being there". I've never had the hair stand up on the back of my neck on 3rd.

Originally posted by Gestankfaust

I still think that FPV is the closest to "being there". I've never had the hair stand up on the back of my neck on 3rd.

I'm with you on that.  3rd person view has always left me feeling disconnected from my character - like I'm just remote controling some thing in a game.

FPV, to me, is more intimate, more immersive.  It gives me much more of the feeling of myself actually being in the game.

I'm sorry I have to disagree with the OP.   How did HL Quake Unreal and the countless others all work in First Person?  Regardless of the genre the perspective is a game design choice and is there for a reason.  I think the countless other problems with this game (I've been playing the beta recently) are a bigger cause for potential sales loss atm than the perspective choice.

Originally posted by Polarisation

 and FP melee is downright terrible. FP magic loses a lot of immersion and wow factor due to magic animations being restricted to a "glowy hands" effect. FP melee is (IMO) particularly bad - the restricted viewing angle doesn't work well with the wide swinging arcs of medium to large hand-held weapons, leaving the FP melee feeling restricted, closed in, and claustrophobic - the precise opposite of what the experience should be like. Darkfall's approach of keeping archery and magic as FP but melee in 3rdPV in my opinion was the best possible compromise, though I would have preferred to have been able to manually flip between 1stPV and 3rdPV at all times.

Feel free to share your thoughts.

Hmmm...I thought the same thing as well until I got into a certain games beta.  There are times you are right that melee in first person is a bit claustrophobic, but it is also very challenging and exhilarating.    I like melee in first person.  But I agree with one thing, the option to have over the shoulder should be there for those that prefer it - like the way Mount and Blade does it - this would be really cool IMHO however the developers for MO feel differently and it is their game to develop the way they see fit.   MO and other games like it that go strictly FP will most likely end up niche' games.   Which is OK.  Not every game is for everyone.

In some cases in mmos i will agree that 3rd person is better.Hell i loved FPS and thought it was the best view in gaming after years of playing games like Quake,Doom,Golden Eye(N64) and then a game called Socom came out and proved that you can have great games im both fps and 3rd person view.Fps for gun games are more realistic and in my eyes better because when you have that 3rd person view option you can use it to look around corners without actually exposing your character in games that are 3rd person which was the only knock i had on the socom series and any other 3rd person shooter/game for that matter.

Perhaps this is one of the many reason's they decided not to use 3rd person for casting/ranged attack like games like Fallen Earth do.In a game skill and pvp based as this game seems to be you dont want people taking advantage of easy situations like the one previously listed but its also nice to be able to view your character in full at times.Perhaps make it so you zoom into Fps when entering and exiting combat?

Anyways i dont care much about Fps as these are the types of games i started with and i will feel at home with the fps style more so then the 3rd person style but i have no issues either way.I just cant wait til it goes live so i can give it a try as im roughyl new to the mmo scene and would love to play or try a game like this or darkfall(will wait for MO since DF had such a shakey launch and has built a bad rep)

Hope my post helps justify why one would not want to have a game like this with 3rd person view.Youd have every noob in 3rd person hiding around corners ganking mofos lol.I know i played socom like that.Hide at a corner with a shotgun and jump out and boom GG.Later MMOer's!

Will

The FPV works great in MO. People that havn't before played a MMO in FPV will be impressed by how well it works and most of them will understand why FPV is superiour to 3PV. 

IMO the game is coming along, slow but who wants a rushed product, the FPS view is awesome even though the core combat system is not even in yet...The FPS is weird to some and people have a hard time accepting change but if you give it time you will learn to love it, yea it requires skill to be good at this game without a doubt and with practice you will have some pretty good epic fights, Starvault should be adding some nice features to this next patch, maybe even all the core features who knows, but the way the game is now is allot funner then most Betas i've played.

It works.
Very well.

Great animations in FPV can really bring a game to life.
You can't feel like your swinging a sword, or being run down in 3rd person.

For me it's the difference between watching something unfold, and actually being in the middle of it.

I think MO is very impressive.

The alpha combat explanation  is a very good read if you want to familliarize yourself with the combat system.
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/3579-alpha-combat-system-short.html
Darkfalls combat is more twitch.
You can't compare the two.  Nothing alike.

Anyone that thinks SV is working slow is completely out of thier mind and irrational.
The public patch notes every two weeks are introducing a ton of content, and quickly.
I could imagine that the developers would love the opportunity to work slow.

According to what's been released in the public patch notes, it would appear they're rather close to implimenting basically everything they said they would.   

I expect when the game releases it'll be a rough gem; one I'll enjoy for some time. 

I actualy pretty much prefer 1st  Person to 3rd Person and play that way exclusively in almost every game where it's offered.

As far as perphrial vision goes, it's true screens are somewhat limited in their field of view. However games can impliment mechanics to compensate for that somewhat. Good use of directional sound can help alot there. As can having hot-keys that allow you to glance to either side when pressed. Maybe even the flash of an icon near the edge of the screen to indicate movement.

In real life, you'll often pickup on things more by sound then vision...especialy at the periphery. Any of you guys that spent much time hunting in thick terrain know what I'm talking about.

Another point, though it would only apply to some types of characters,  is that some-one wearing heavy armor will tend to have far more restricted vision then is even represented in most computer games. If you ever get the chance, try on something like a Sugarloaf Helm sometime and see what it's like.   Heck, even open-faced helms (basicaly football helmets) can cut down your field of view a little.

First Person View works.

For the right people.

like asking 3rd person view to counter strike source.....................................................

Originally posted by inBOIL

like asking 3rd person view to counter strike source.....................................................

*this

 Oblivion, Morrowing and Fallout 3 all have proven that an RPG works well with FPV. I don't see why an MMORPG would be any different.

Yes!.. bring 3d person view so i can see above walls, trees and bushes.. and then i will never get  ambushed!!