PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download | Retail Price:n/a | Pay Type:Subscription
Desktop Client | System Req:
Mortal Online General Article: A Brief Look at Mortal Online
MMORPG.com Mortal Online Correspondent Phil Penman writes this introductory overview of some of the features in Star Vault's upcoming MMO.
By Phil Penman on May 12, 2009
Star Vault have been developing a new MMO for the past four years which is entering the final stages of Beta readiness, Mortal Online.
Utilising the third generation Unreal Engine the game looks stunning, with some fantastic alpha screenshots and excellent in-game preview movies released for public viewing. So graphically at least, they appear to be on the right track. However as with all MMOs, success will depend on more than eye-candy. The devs at Star Vault are well aware of this and are blending well proven elements from existing MMOs with some neat new features.
As the public beta nears, it's time we had a quick look at a few of the reasons you should be paying attention to this promisingly brutal new MMO:
First Person Perspective only
This will no doubt come as a shock to the system for most MMO players of late, who are use to an invisible security camera floating around their character's head. Perhaps the most controversial decision by Star Vault, many heated debates have been raging for months over the merits of such a restricted view. Some players like the idea, but many others are disheartened and calling for the inclusion of a third person view.
;)
There are pros and cons to both first and third person views. Immersion isn't a factor for most people, but third person does arguably make life easier in PvP based games, whereas first person would allow for more sneaky back-stabbing encounters and arguably requires greater player concentration due to the restricted field of vision. The debate will rumble on, probably well past release.
No levels
With this feature, Star Vault has taken the plunge and ensured that we never need to congratulate 10 people in guild chat a day each time they level.
On a more serious note, I've grown tired of the straight forward levelling grind which has become such an integrated feature of most MMOs over the past few years. In Mortal Online, end-game content starts from day one, there is no need to grind to the maximum level to participate with established veterans, or indeed have a go at sticking them in the back with your newbie sword of foolishness. Over time your character will be developed, but you'll never be excluded purely because you're a lowbie.
No compulsory class selections
;)
There are NPC class guilds, but the decision to define your character within the boundaries of one of these guilds is entirely up to you. You'll have benefits if you do, for example, a Mage's guild will increase your ability and power with magic, but there will be restrictions placed upon you. You're also free to leave and join guilds as you please, without starting over as long as you meet any guild prerequisites for membership. These prerequisites may well vary, from stats to your wealth or reputations.
The lack of clearly defined and pigeon-holed classes may leave some players feeling bewildered and confused when they're not faced with a classes selection during character creation. However, there are those who feel that this is a far more realistic method of character development and hopefully there will be as few restrictions as possible, allowing as much character customisation as possible and taking full advantage of the skill system.
The skill system
It's neither glamorous nor sexy, but at the heart of all MMOs is the skill system and like it or not, the better your understanding of it, the more powerful your character will become.
Over the past few years, we've seen a plethora of online games using character levels and point allocations to allow gamers to customise their characters, but Mortal Online provides players a return to the older, "use and improve" system.
MMOs are all about player to player interaction, whether it's verbal, written or with the business end of a sword. This is the primary reason all MMOs have some restrictions on skills and abilities. If your character is a master of all skills, you have no need for other players, which would make an MMO rather lonely. Mortal Online is attempting to circumvent this problem with relaxed prerequisites and skill caps, whilst not being overly zealous from character creation and locking even a new character into a life of robe wearing and staff wielding.
Mortal Online has primary and secondary skills, making up the familiar MMO skill tree with prerequisites and caps on abilities. However, these skills are also split into three categories: action, learning and deva skills:
Action skills are essentially "use and improve", much as you would in real life, the more frequently you repeat something, the better you become. i.e. Arming a sword, combat, blocking, stealing.
Learning skills are generally passively learned but can be boosted by your character's interaction and observations in-game. i.e. zoology might be boosted by discovering a new creature.
Deva or "shared soul" skills can affect all of the characters on your account. These will be trained to the same level for all characters on your account, but may only become available to a particular character once some prerequisites are met. Details on the exact skills are still sketchy but are likely to be minor skills only.
;)
This more natural and flowing method of character development will ultimately be far more rewarding to players, with greater variation between characters and far fewer cookie-cutter templates.
Real-time combat
The planned combat system in Mortal Online relies mostly on the player's reactions and actions to determine the outcome of combat. There's no luck based roll and very little automatic combat carried out on your behalf. In short, if you're not paying attention, you have no chance in a fight.
Each attack that you initiate will leave you open for a counter attack, each successful block will in turn leave an opening for you to strike, but at no point will random button mashing and mouse clicking get you ahead. Star Vault are trying to make combat far more instant, immersive and interactive. The player's own ability to read their opponent will be crucial, no longer can be hide behind the thin veil of excuses made up of cool down timers, low evade rates and auto-attack DPS ratings.
You are truly free
;)
Free PvP? Yes, the game mechanics will never stop one player from attacking another and unlike MMORPGs which claim to be "full" PvP, there are no areas where players are entirely safe from attack. Even when in town and under the protection of the town guard, players can still freely engage in bloody combat. There are consequences to breaking the town laws, but the game won't prevent you from doing so.
You are free to steal from other players, anything, anywhere and at any time. The game developers are currently discussing the possibly of stealing mounts and have already confirmed that a player's house key could be stolen, in effect meaning so is the house. The idea of stealing in MMOs has been somewhat frowned upon over the past few years, with players investing such a huge amount of time into the accumulation of in-game wealth and items. However, with stealing being a core part of the game along with anytime, anywhere combat, perhaps it's only fitting that there should be very few, if any, limits on what can be stolen.
This level of freedom will be new to many players who have for so many years been used to the security afforded by their character's inventory, mount's saddlebags and house vault. Players who are used to going AFK for long periods in the wilderness, only to return and pick up where they left off. Doing so in Mortal Online, that same player may find their character naked, penniless and very, very dead.
I am looking forward to MO and will indeed pick it up at release,The only fear I have is that the entire game community will be running around naked and without a silver coin in there pocket....not because they have been killed but because they fear getting killed and losing everything they worked long and hard for,if they have some sort of bank in game I very much doubt anyone will be going out with there house key in there pocket.
While 1st person view does help alot with immersion....a game full of naked warriors running around does very little for it :P
Well 1st person view only sounds interesting, the immersion will be surely increased, but there are also players who want to customise there characters: putting on a cool shield wearing nice robes when in the city to make your character seem like a rich noble etc. Those kinds of things will get pointless if you can only see the back low left corner of that cool shield of yours and you can't even see your own character. Maybe the developers should add 3rd person camera angle, but if you attack something or something hits you it automaticly switches to 1st person view.
Having combat immersion is good, but being able to see your character once in awhile is also good for character immersion.
I believe that kind of thing would be easily remedied via a paperdoll feature (dress up your character in the equipment/character menu)
either way im fine with it, ive been waiting for this game for a while and i hope its as beautiful as it sounds!
PS: good informative overview article by the way lol
Free PvP? Yes, the game mechanics will never stop one player from attacking another and unlike MMORPGs which claim to be "full" PvP, there are no areas where players are entirely safe from attack. Even when in town and under the protection of the town guard, players can still freely engage in bloody combat.
You are free to steal from other players, anything, anywhere and at any time. The game developers are currently discussing the possibly of stealing mounts and have already confirmed that a player's house key could be stolen, in effect meaning so is the house.
NO thanks. This game sounds like the the opposite of fun to me. Sounds like they actually found a way to make a gankfest less fun.
It's all just hype untill there's a "BUY" button on their website.
Sounds great.... On paper. Many of the proposed systems will need a fine balance to achieve "fun" for everyone. But they will always straddle a fine line.
Things such as the combat, I really hope the animation system is varied and unique, if the only cues we have are "reading our foe" animations will need to be top notch, and include things like visual cues and tells.
From what i have seen so far, they are not up to snuff.
I remain skeptical, but intrigued. The lack of safe zones will be an issue, unless the law system if nicely fleshed out.
I remain sceptical.
sounds 10x better than Darkfall.
I'm with you. I'm glad that this game is being made and even suspect that it will release in decent shape. However, I'm not wired in a way where having things taken from me or killed in town or having my house stolen is considered fun.
Darkfall sounded best thing since sliced bread right until it was released
Way I see it, It's not a big of an item-centric game as others, ie .You won't have some "Epic" Shield of shineyness for slaying some dragon, which in one mistake you will lose forever. It seems it's going to be a lot more player created and managed economy. I'm right along with everone else saying that they aren't too keen on being raped in a dark alley and having hard earned thigns pried from them, yet from the sounds of how things are being put in place, I'm definatly willing to see how it goes and I think it has a great potential.
I'm with you. I'm glad that this game is being made and even suspect that it will release in decent shape. However, I'm not wired in a way where having things taken from me or killed in town or having my house stolen is considered fun.
You need to let go of the preconceptions you have when it comes to MMORPG's. This game will not be like the average MMO people have gotten used to over the few years. If you don't like PvP at all, then this game will not be for you, but that doesn't mean people need to be heavily PvP focused to enjoy it. There will be pleanty to do for crafters, explorers and socializers. They just have to come to terms with the fact that they are not playing a safe PvE game and they will be able to enjoy it.
Getting killed and loosing your gear over and over again is something that you can avoid, if you know how to play the game and work together with other players. This game is about player interaction. If you get killed in town and your gear gets stolen the killer will most likely also die by the hands of city guards or other players. Then his corpse can be looted and all the gear he stole from you will be there. Then it's up to you to persuade other players to give or sell it back to you, if you were unable to loot all the gear back faster than others.
If you carry your house key with you and someone steals it, then it's your job to hurry back to your house and defend it. Whether with your sword or simply by beating the thief to the house and exchanging the locks. You need to remember, there will be hundreds or even thousands of houses in the world, the thief most likely won't know which one is yours. On the other hand, if the thief is smart and follows you after you exit your house, then he deserves to get the goodies.
To Phil Penman: A well informed and well written review. The best I've seen in a long time. Keep up the good work.
Too bad this leaves out some other interesting aspects which have recently been released, such as crossbreeding system at character developement; you also get to pick the races of your parents and grandparents to customize your looks, stats and background story to a high degree from the start on.
Also the crafting system which is material based and offers a huge amount of possible combinations looks awesome so far.
Or what about monsters, occasionaly controlled by GM's?
All in all realism, immersion and freedom are the core aspects for the team it seems and they value a great roleplaying environment just as highly as the freedom in pvp.
How can you exchange the lock if you dont have the key to get in?
Keep a spare key somewhere? Hire a locksmith? ;)
I just know what I enjoy, and this doesn't sound like it at all. I'm not hating on it. I'm sure a lot of people are waiting for a game like this. I am just not one of them.
I understand that a lot of people enjoy the simulated risk, but I am not one of them. there is plenty of risk vs reward in my real life, I play video game to have fun. Getting ganked and having my house stolen while I try to do a quest doesn't sound fun to me at all. And honestly, I don't think I want to play an RPG where gear is of so little importance that it isn't a big deal to lose it.
This never works out. Willing to be suprised though.
You need to let go of the preconceptions you have when it comes to MMORPG's. This game will not be like the average MMO people have gotten used to over the few years. If you don't like PvP at all, then this game will not be for you, but that doesn't mean people need to be heavily PvP focused to enjoy it. There will be pleanty to do for crafters, explorers and socializers. They just have to come to terms with the fact that they are not playing a safe PvE game and they will be able to enjoy it.
Getting killed and loosing your gear over and over again is something that you can avoid, if you know how to play the game and work together with other players. This game is about player interaction. If you get killed in town and your gear gets stolen the killer will most likely also die by the hands of city guards or other players. Then his corpse can be looted and all the gear he stole from you will be there. Then it's up to you to persuade other players to give or sell it back to you, if you were unable to loot all the gear back faster than others.
If you carry your house key with you and someone steals it, then it's your job to hurry back to your house and defend it. Whether with your sword or simply by beating the thief to the house and exchanging the locks. You need to remember, there will be hundreds or even thousands of houses in the world, the thief most likely won't know which one is yours. On the other hand, if the thief is smart and follows you after you exit your house, then he deserves to get the goodies.
To Phil Penman: A well informed and well written review. The best I've seen in a long time. Keep up the good work.
Oh, I love pvp, but I'm pretty certain that the game mechanic of looting corpses (myself doing the looting as well) and stealing just is not fun for me.
I was being pretty honest when I said that I'm not wired that way.
I would never loot someone. I have no desire to do so, even if I wasted 20 guys with my awesome power (and why wouldn't it be awesome? ; ) ) I still wouldn't loot them.
And I certainly don't enjoy the idea of losing what I've made. I don't "get" the fun. The only answer to that is "well, part of that is that it makes pvp meaningful" but the huge mistake of a statement like that is that what is meaningful to me is what "I" say is meaningful.
Full loot and stealing is not meaningful for me.
as a side note, there is another thread where someone is talking about hating large scale "zerg" battles. To me I like them and that is meaningful to me.
To put it in perspective, I loved the Lineage 2 siege system before they removed the xp loss from the siege deaths.
That system was meaningful to me.
But again, I'm glad they are making a game like this. The genre needs it.
Looting? Stealing? Not so much.
Let me set everyone straight. I have done the house key thing in Ultima. It did not work there and won't work here. Housing is expensive and if a thief can steal a house, you can bet what all the ass hats will be playing.
Stealing is another item that does not work well in a MMO unless there are limits and consequences.
If they leave thieving wide open, the game will die a quick death. Nothing wrong with dying and being looted, but loosing things to thieves is just another thing. UO had to eventually curb the thieves, it just does not work well in a MMO without controls. The problem with thieves, they tend to find just about every exploit available. Not great when you lose an item because someone used an exploit.
Hope they reconsider how they are designing this game. I have no problem with pvp or full loot, it could be a great game.
Check out the the detailed flagging system :
http://www.mortalonline.com/files/flagging/MO_Flagging.pdf
This is very complex and guarantees consequences for all griefing issues, you can't steal/loot/gang gank without consequences like in darkfall for instances.
About the key : stealing a key don't provide ownership to the stealer, and it don't provide him the location of the house either, in addition your house would be most likely in a secured area with guards, so that a trespasser can't make it to your house.
A real life thief would have been incarcerated or hung. Even with the penalty systems thieves and murderers would just pop up from their binding stone or whatever and come back.
I really like the idea of having totally free world and even the less lawful players. I just hope the system works well both ways.
Thanks for the heads up on the flagging system. Seems like they have put some thought into this. Going to need a "guards" macro to play this game.
They need to include a safe area or heightened security area around the bank, otherwise it becomes a cluster point for thieves.
People always say open PvP is more "realistic". Lets go all the way with it. I'll play an open PvP game with real consequences. How about an ingame prison system for murderers and thieves. They could still play the game once arrested, they would just be relegated to playing inside the prison until their sentence was over. Lock them in a small area with all the other thieves and murders and let them have at it. :)
I like that. But let's take it one step further. After all, it is a game.
Make it so that if I murderer or thief is caught they are sent to some deep underground prison. And in order for them to leave they have to figure out not only how to get out but they have to overcome whatever special guardians are down there.
The flipside of that is that if their sentence is done before they can get out, they are released.
Hey folks - Just wanted to point something out. The preview was written a few weeks ago and seeing as it's in alpha and a constant state of development flux, I wouldn't be surprised if things have changed so I appologise in advance if they have :)
I did try to get some new screenshots but I think they're too busy developing, so I think we can all forgive them. The latest screenies and footage was released after submission and looks fantastic though, really wish the dev team all the best in getting this one up and running to beta ASAP!
I've noticed alot of concern regarding the full loot system, I found this interesting post in the MO forums for an alternative full loot system that still retains the risk vs reward of the full loot system as well as deter naked zerging and using the same skill system that MO will employ: www.mortalonline.com/forums/17-we-listening-you-27.html#post209534
I'll paste it here as well:
A new spin on the full loot system:
First let me clearly state I enjoy full loot PVP with no restrictions and the below suggestion was just an idea at work I was entertaining.
In other words relax, it's just an idea, do not resort to name calling, flaming, or trolling.
So I was thinking the other day about a way to lessen the "ouch" factor of full loot PVP to the newer generation of players who aren't accustomed to the harsh "full loot" PVP system some of us enjoy so much. And I came up with this idea:
A "Search" skill for all players.
This skill will allow newer players, who will most likely be together hunting around the same racial areas at the beginning, a chance to hunt/quest/pvp without losing everything at the start yet reward the experienced players, who will most likely be able to travel far & wide, with the ability to rape a player's corpse for all its worldly belongings.
How does it work?
The higher your "Search" skill is, the more loot you can pillage from someone's hulking corpse. It gives players a very slight chance of keeping a few items after death while still allowing the concept of full loot to seasoned veterans who have put in work in leveling their skill.
Break down the victim's inventory into percentage. Now depending on your "Search" skill, the higher it is the more loot you get from the corpse.
You can even make it so that rarer items (for example a very rare sword or material component) a lesser chance of being looted as opposed to a common drop such as a regular longsword. Or larger common items have a higher chance of being looted as opposed to smaller common items. Obviously the higher your "Search" skill, the lesser that matters because you will be able to loot it all.
How will I increase my "Search" skill?
The more dead player bodies your loot the higher your "Search" skill becomes using a similar scaling system to the rest of the skill set in-game.
Eventually your "Search" skill will be so high that you will most likely always loot everything on a player's corpse. So we still have the full loot system die hard player love, but we also have a learning curve for those who aren't used to it but want to give Mortal Online a chance.
But can't I exploit it by just inviting my friend who has a higher "Search" skill to come hunt players with me?
Yes, that makes grouping more prominent and easier to identify those who have put in PVP experience as leaders of hunting parties without forcing a grouping option to those that just like to hunt players alone.
If three players are in a group and one of them loots a PVP corpse, all party members should get the appropriate skill up relative to their current skill level.
Wouldn't you rather group with an experienced PVPer or would you waste your time with "LeetLegolas911" who just joined the game? I'd rather group with the more experienced player.
Also looting the same player corpse over & over in a limited time will offer diminishing returns to stop players from exploiting each other by killing each other over and over to loot each other and raise their skill.
Wait, but is this for PVE as well?
No, leave it as a PVP skill only. And it should only be allowed to be leveled up by PVP kill looting. All players should be able to loot all drops from a NPC creature they have killed.
Hey that's not fair! So an experienced player can full loot me but if I engage him and risk more, shouldn't I be allowed a larger reward?
Whose to say a player on a mount in full epic gear has PVPed enough to have a higher "Search" skill then you? This is a sandbox game. Someone who has spent their entire career PVPing but has crappy gear will easily have a higher "Search" skill and therefore have a near excellent chance of getting ALL that player's epic gear that hasn't PVPed much at all. So if you opponent has better gear than you, and you attack them, you end up risking more because the odds might be against you, but if you win, your reward is "oh so much" better.
Now as for those who PVP and PVE alot, obviously you should watch out for them. They have put in the time to become "great" for a reason, and should be feared.
"Hark, this is Sir Rogerlynn III, this 'skill' thou speakth of has not the REALISM I desire!"
Slow down there big fella RPer. While I do enjoy the RP aspect of MMOs and do love the realistic direction MO has taken, we do need to remember that in the end it is still just a game. It is not very realistic to be able to loot someones armor in the speed it takes you to click it over to your inventory.
How can I miss something as big as an armor if I failed my skill check?
Just because you didn't have a high enough skill check to loot everything does not mean you missed it.
It could mean you just didn't understand how to unequip it from the corpse. Ever seen a samurai adorn their armor? it is a long process with many intricate locks and overlaying flaps of studded leather.
Interesting idea, especially if it were put in as a primary skill which was subject to a hard cap. They'd mean people essentially having to sacrifice something else useful to get a very high search skill.
That is stupid, stealing mounts is one thing but a house stays in place. While someone with the key might robb you if they are fast I never heard of a time when the key was the thing that made you own a house. In IRL at any time of history the guards would hang the guy for living in another persons house.
Full loot is a controversial thing but to be able to steal a house is just retarded, they must take that feature away.
That is stupid, stealing mounts is one thing but a house stays in place. While someone with the key might robb you if they are fast I never heard of a time when the key was the thing that made you own a house. In IRL at any time of history the guards would hang the guy for living in another persons house.
Full loot is a controversial thing but to be able to steal a house is just retarded, they must take that feature away.
We don't know the full extent of other features, such as banking or the like. In fact, i think a lot of people here are thinking of the features as you have seen them before in other games, This games specific implementation could be completely different. Such as laws, that may exactly what you have said.
Interesting slip of the tongue. Review (and others) have stated the game is firmly in beta and due to release sometime soon [TM].
i doubt it will release any time this year myself, but the review did make it sound interesting.
Like others, I'm not a fan of allowing thieving, unless thieves suffer serious consequences like they would in the real world.
FFA PVP everywhere makes me have doubts also, unless the consequences system is amazing and beyond anything I've ever seen the game will devolve into a gankfest.
To the aplogists who say I'll need to re-learn how to play MMO's and what not, I say you sound exactly like the Darkfall folks and we all pretty much know how that game's turning out.
We'll see how it goes, and I'm sure some folks will thrill to the game's mechanics, but probably not me.
I was looking foward to this game. But i dont like how they want to make is a complete free for all. With everything being able to be stolen and you can be killed anywhere even in cities. Sorry i dont want someone who plays 12 hours a day because they have no job or life stealing all my crap and killing me.
Why the HECK cant someone make a sandbox game that is combat restricitve. People dont just run around and kill each other and steal there stufff. I want a sanbox world that is civilized. I hope someone makes one some day so i can finally find a sandbox game for me.
If you look at the first item in the news on the M.O. website you'll see that they're talking about starting the first phases of beta testing, it hasnt' actually started, so it's in limbo between the alpha post-dev testing and being suitable for public beta testing.
I'm with you in that I doubt it'll be out this year, but lets hope they release it when they think it's ready to be released and not early to get some revenue flowing, I've seen too many games prematurely released on us in the past few years! :)
If you look at the first item in the news on the M.O. website you'll see that they're talking about starting the first phases of beta testing, it hasnt' actually started, so it's in limbo between the alpha post-dev testing and being suitable for public beta testing.
I'm with you in that I doubt it'll be out this year, but lets hope they release it when they think it's ready to be released and not early to get some revenue flowing, I've seen too many games prematurely released on us in the past few years! :)
Yep it is true that they are about to start the beta phase though I also find it strange they are still saying it will release in summer 2009,maybe thats just the way mmo's are these days with release's...put an impossible release date to drum up interest then hit them with the delay's.
I agree, but then again I like the risk and danger of simply not knowing what's coming next. There will be consequences for attacking players in town, so it's not all doom and gloom.
Ultima Online was arguably one of the most civilised MMOs, before they released carebear land (Trammel). We could have been murdering each other, but oddly a majority of players stuck within the rules and targetted other guilds. Eve Online has a few pirates, but a majority of the player base don't run about killing newbies all day, again it's about competition and for a majority of players that means good fair fights.
The developers will simply have to balance the game, give benefits for those that follow the rules most of the time, but then again not overly punish those that don't, part of the appeal for some players will be the sense of danger :)
That was then, this is now.
"Players will do WHAT they can, IF they can, when THEY want to".
Both UO and Eve Online have certain barriers that worked in their favor that newer MMOs do not.
UO had something working in its favor called the "Technology barrier".
When UO was released, computer gaming wasn't so readily available to everyone. Computers, in general, able to run games were not so easily available as they are now. Remember when EQ came out and people were flabbergasted they had to buy an additional graphics card to enjoy the game? This technology barrier deterred some of the more immature and younger crowds from playing UO and EQ1, hence why some of the best gaming communities I encountered were from those two games alone.
Eve Online has the steep learning curve as its barrier.
Most simple minded individuals are easily turned off by Eve's massive learning curve. It acts as a barrier weeding out the strong and dedicated from the weak. This doesn't mean just because you did not like Eve Online that you are weak, please do not take offense. But it does filter out those who share the common traits such as short attention span and immaturity from the more mature crowd who are more patient and willing to delve deep into a complex gaming system.
Yep.
I really believe more people are turned away from Eve by the open PvP than the steep learning curve. The game isn't really that much more complicated than other MMOs, it's just that it throws the noobs in with vets. It certainly makes it more difficult to learn the game, or discover the subtle nuances when you get locked in place and quickly killed upon spawning in at a gate. Eve is the only game I have ever played where spawn point camping wasn't looked down upon, but rather an integral part of the game.
I was never turned off by the complexity of pre-cu SWG or Anarchy Online... but then, I also got to learn the game without some asshat killing me and losing all my worldly possessions every time I logged in. ;)
This is not likely to happen, as if you are in a city :
1) you can defend yourself
2) everybody can attack your aggressor without consequences + city guards
3) everybody can loot him without consequences
4) even if he kills you he wont be able to loot you before dying
5) even if he kills you, people who try to loot you will be flagged and have the same fate as the aggressor.
And outside a city, even if he plays 12 hours a day and you 2 hours a day, the chances in 1v1 are quite even, because the game is more player skill based (you aim your strikes and your sheild blocks) than character skill or gear based.
All of this remains to be seen. I have yet to see a brand new flagging system that didn't have a large number of loopholes and exploits - where people "play the mechanics" of the system to make it work contrary to the way it was intended.
Same thing with the "player skill based" claims. Just about every PvP game makes this claim. Still, MO characters will have skills, and I presume those skills will make some sort of difference. Just how many afk-macroers will infest this game from the start, in the pursuit of every possible statistical advantage?
I'm interested in this game, but these days, these types of games seem to attract the worst type of human beings available, in numbers much larger than what you'll find in most other MMOs. So many want complete freedom, with no consequences. If MO goes that direction, this community will become the same cesspool you see in a game like Darkfall.
As someone above already stated, why is "sandbox MMO" most often synonymous with "MMO playground for the most sociopathic losers on the face of the planet". I guess a more civilized sandbox, with some actual consequences for the most aberrent and antisocial behavior, just wouldn't be "hardcore" enough, huh?
I honestly hope MO is better than this, but I'm extremely skeptical.
All of this remains to be seen. I have yet to see a brand new flagging system that didn't have a large number of loopholes and exploits - where people "play the mechanics" of the system to make it work contrary to the way it was intended.
Same thing with the "player skill based" claims. Just about every PvP game makes this claim. Still, MO characters will have skills, and I presume those skills will make some sort of difference. Just how many afk-macroers will infest this game from the start, in the pursuit of every possible statistical advantage?
I'm interested in this game, but these days, these types of games seem to attract the worst type of human beings available, in numbers much larger than what you'll find in most other MMOs. So many want complete freedom, with no consequences. If MO goes that direction, this community will become the same cesspool you see in a game like Darkfall.
As someone above already stated, why is "sandbox MMO" most often synonymous with "MMO playground for the most sociopathic losers on the face of the planet". I guess a more civilized sandbox, with some actual consequences for the most aberrent and antisocial behavior, just wouldn't be "hardcore" enough, huh?
I honestly hope MO is better than this, but I'm extremely skeptical.
Well the main man, Henrik, behind the game claims to have been a red in UO for some time so I'm guessing they will be fairly lenient to their reds, although I hope otherwise.
This game is my new home for the next coming 5 years if it lasts that long. This game is going to be proof that swedish people make the best damn games! And that we know what is good and not, when it comes to MMO mechanics features.
Quite the contrary. Henrik wants playing as a red to be a challenge. It in no way means that he will be lenient towards reds.
I am looking forward to this game as well and I only have a couple of things at the moment that really concern me. The lack of 3rd person view and how they are going to be handling combat. If they put in auto blocking instead of player controlled blocking (like Mount and Blade has) I suspect this game will not hold my interest for long. As for the 3rd person view. I understand the reasoning behind having only first person view, but I seriously think this will stop a huge amount of people from playing simply because - players like to see their characters! I know I do. I like to watch my character perform actions and to see how she looks in her gear and for RPing purposes it is nice to be able to see my character and the other peoples characters I am playing with in game.
I think the lack of 3rd person view is really going to hurt this game in the long run.
Darkfall sounded best thing since sliced bread right until it was released
the hell it did..........
Haven't read the conversation thread yet, but this game is looking very interesting. Free pvp and stealing? Awesome. I probably won't be stealing or attacking people...well not attacking people much, but just the risk of it is fun.
I like that idea. Giving up a primary skill in order for just the chance to be a better pvper sounds great on paper. I hope they take that idea and make it work.
Well, I hope your faith in this game is confirmed.
I should think that a first-person view would come more in handy for RPing purposes. You can always open the charecter sheet or find a mirror i you wanna play dress up :)
But seriously, i'm thrilled that a game like this comes out, they really target a niche market, but if they hold on to their convictions, they'll have a loyal fanbase for years to come. I'm also always happy to see my neighboors to the north be succesful at video game making!
There are so many aspects and features which appeal to me it is uncanny. Before these guys went to work on this game they really did some great thinking by focusing so much on game mechanics rather than how they want to attract a massive amount of very different people or how to best exploit an existing IP.
To me (as a concept developer but not game related) it seems they took the words; "immersion", "freedom", "realism" and "diversity" and had those in mind when brainstorming on every feature or mechanic.
From the way how you can tame wild animals to become mounts (which will never be in your inventory) to the crossbreeding system where you can pick your parent's and their parent's races at character creation which decides the blend of your racial stats and looks. (And has RP'ers shaping their character's background story from the very start).
From how tooltips give different information based on your skill levels (the generic 'Red Flower' is a 'Desert Rose' for specialists) to the crafting system where players are free to use a vast amount of materials and designs and make them into different parts which combine into the weapon you want.
From player housing and how you can expand on those to the way how unique boss monsters only die once, to be replaced by another menace and probably somewhere else (and how they can be controlled by GM's during an encounter).
From the way you discover the map and how discovery and cartography can actually be proffitable proffessions, to how your alts learn certain things your main learned in the game with the Deva skill system.
Etc, ect.
I haven't even touched how they aim for exciting and immersive, real time combat and the freedom in world pvp.
I am not saying "this game can't go wrong" or that there won't be aspects in which they can screw up big time at launch, but what I've read so far really appeals to me. In theory this game comes close to the perfect MMORPG to me.
:)
Amen to that! They even talked about how, when you kill all the carnivors of a certain forest the herbivore population are going to take overhand. I know they said that they weren't going to include that at launch, but just stating it means that they have put some thought into the mechanism, and if and when they include it, THAT will be the perfect mmorpg for me.
That sounds awesome as well. The whole idea of a developing, changing world is ace in my book. So many mmorpgs take the easy way out to make the world static and only governed by day and night cycles and respawn timers.
When the world and it's non-player population is dynamic you never know what is around the next corner. That will generate some disapointments; ("I swear you gusy! It was here yesterday!"), but also many "WTF!" moments and it gives incentives to also visit places where you have been before.
Most mmorpgs I played have a world devided strictly in zones tied to player level ranges with not much incentives to be in places outside your level range (a.k.a. the biggest part of the world), in MO, where you were merily picking flowers yesterday, a tribe of trolls might have moved in this morning. I really love that unpredictability :)
It's not the thieve that made something bad, because he wanted to play as a thieve/rogue, but the player, who let him do it.
"consequences system" is simple. It doesn't have to have billions of restrictions. It should rather have only couple, to make players think before doing things considered as unacceptable.
Do not forget about FF, cause everyone whines around about zerging and other shit like this.
Every time i read someone post (I was looking faward to that game) What is coming next? Carebear request or they still get concerned about the third person view. Well... MO is not for everyone so go back to wow and dont make my game become a trammel like UO.
There will never be any insurence, 3rd person view will never be implemented, stealing will be balanced, but it will stay.
Posts like this just get me. They show complete ignorance of what has happened in past MMO's. All I can say, boy are you in for a rude surprise. The playerbase has gotten a lot worse than when UO was around pre trammel. It was not trammel that hurt UO, it was the Age of Shadows, where they made equipment determine the out come of fights rather than skill.
Without consequences, servers self destruct. Too many people take advantage of gaps in rules and the rest just say to heck with it.
So for the ignorant, I reiterate, without decent consequences you end up with a dead game. Any knowledgable developer knows that and I am sure from what I have seen so far of this game that will be true here.
I wish them luck, I would like to give this game a try. Darkfall is such a disaster waiting to happen because of completely clueless developers.
Posts like this just get me. They show complete ignorance of what has happened in past MMO's. All I can say, boy are you in for a rude surprise. The playerbase has gotten a lot worse than when UO was around pre trammel. It was not trammel that hurt UO, it was the Age of Shadows, where they made equipment determine the out come of fights rather than skill.
Without consequences, servers self destruct. Too many people take advantage of gaps in rules and the rest just say to heck with it.
So for the ignorant, I reiterate, without decent consequences you end up with a dead game. Any knowledgable developer knows that and I am sure from what I have seen so far of this game that will be true here.
I wish them luck, I would like to give this game a try. Darkfall is such a disaster waiting to happen because of completely clueless developers.
This.
What a shame, this game looked like the MMO of my dreams until I read about the full loot, completely open PvP, and thieving. Have sandbox game developers learned nothing? The sort of player that this sort of open PvP/PvP looting system attracts are the rabid frothing-at-the-mouth griefers who enjoy making the game unplayable for anyone not in their "1337 z3rg clanz0r" and anyone who doesn't travel with an army. We need a sandbox game that appeals to more than the average PvP griefer.
The flagging system won't matter. People will exploit game mechanics to get away with whatever they want, whenever they want. That's just the maturity level of the PvP griefer crowd that this sort of system attracts. Don't believe me? Think i'm just trolling? Go play Darkfall, or Age of Conan open PvP server, or even a WoW PvP server. Any of those will have stealthed rogues ganking and backstabbing and stealing from you just because they can get a kick out of it, and just because they have nothing better to do. Any of those will have groups of immature asshats camping instance entrances and spamming "lolcopter you all sux your mom is fat i pwn you etc etc" in global chat while they zerg anyone who tries to get in. Any of those will have a group of immature asshats who hang around at the side of a well traveled road like a pack of starving animals waiting to zerg, kill, and usualy corpse camp/grief, anyone unlucky enough to cross. And these types of players are -everywhere-. Most of them -are- like that.
With full looting to stack on top of it all? Wow, good luck accomplishing -anything- -ever- outside of a zerg guild. You'll end up with a few barbaric zerg guilds just randomly killing people and looting them in the end, and drive all those players who want no part of griefing away from the game entirely. And not a lot of players playing your game.
So let the handful of rabid griefers go at it in the PvP servers, and add a more realistic PvP system as part of a different server. The world isn't ready to responsibly and maturely handle a fully open PvP system, let alone PvP looting. Past MMO's have proven that fully open PvP -always- degrades into total anarchy and gankfests.
This.
What a shame, this game looked like the MMO of my dreams until I read about the full loot, completely open PvP, and thieving. Have sandbox game developers learned nothing? The sort of player that this sort of open PvP/PvP looting system attracts are the rabid frothing-at-the-mouth griefers who enjoy making the game unplayable for anyone not in their "1337 z3rg clanz0r" and anyone who doesn't travel with an army. We need a sandbox game that appeals to more than the average PvP griefer.
The flagging system won't matter. People will exploit game mechanics to get away with whatever they want, whenever they want. That's just the maturity level of the PvP griefer crowd that this sort of system attracts. Don't believe me? Think i'm just trolling? Go play Darkfall, or Age of Conan open PvP server, or even a WoW PvP server. Any of those will have stealthed rogues ganking and backstabbing and stealing from you just because they can get a kick out of it, and just because they have nothing better to do. Any of those will have groups of immature asshats camping instance entrances and spamming "lolcopter you all sux your mom is fat i pwn you etc etc" in global chat while they zerg anyone who tries to get in. Any of those will have a group of immature asshats who hang around at the side of a well traveled road like a pack of starving animals waiting to zerg, kill, and usualy corpse camp/grief, anyone unlucky enough to cross. And these types of players are -everywhere-. Most of them -are- like that.
With full looting to stack on top of it all? Wow, good luck accomplishing -anything- -ever- outside of a zerg guild. You'll end up with a few barbaric zerg guilds just randomly killing people and looting them in the end, and drive all those players who want no part of griefing away from the game entirely. And not a lot of players playing your game.
So let the handful of rabid griefers go at it in the PvP servers, and add a more realistic PvP system as part of a different server. The world isn't ready to responsibly and maturely handle a fully open PvP system, let alone PvP looting. Past MMO's have proven that fully open PvP -always- degrades into total anarchy and gankfests.
1) There are no instance entrances. If you can go into a dungeon, so can everyone else, into the very same dungeon with you and everyone in it.
2) Zerg's work well when there is unbalanced AoE mechanics and no friendly fire. MO will have friendly fire. Careful with that zerg Eugene. You could do more harm than good.
3) gear has weight. You can only carry so much much gear before you cant move. Sure in the early days people will loot everything, just like Fallout 3. But you learn to drop the plates and cups and mugs and only loot the things you want.
4) Some people are tired of waiting for the world to change. These people are the ones trying to make the change.
5) There is no global chat. They have talked about your first 20 hours (in game) you cannot be attacked. So the first 20 hours is your "tutorial" time to get your wits about you.
6) This game isnt for everyone. We can all argue back and forth of what we think makes a great MMO. The developers of this game created it with the idea in mind that it is for a niche group. They are making their game the way they always wanted a game to work. They know it wont appeal to everyone and are not looking to be the next massively great thing. They want to be the next great thing to the player niche that this game will appeal to.
I understand where you are coming from. I have seen the things you have described. I also have heard the Dev's in this game talk about those very issues. IMO they dont want a giant gank-fest. They want a world where people have choices. Instead of linear paths that every single person playing the game does the same thing. This is their baby, without publishers pushing their hand one way or another. This is the game they wanted to always play themselves when they imagined a game. The game isnt even released (about to enter closed beta) and the mob and pitch forks are out in mass numbers without seeing how the game play even works together or even venturing to their website to have a more than general clue of mechanics.
That sounds awesome as well. The whole idea of a developing, changing world is ace in my book. So many mmorpgs take the easy way out to make the world static and only governed by day and night cycles and respawn timers.
When the world and it's non-player population is dynamic you never know what is around the next corner. That will generate some disapointments; ("I swear you gusy! It was here yesterday!"), but also many "WTF!" moments and it gives incentives to also visit places where you have been before.
Most mmorpgs I played have a world devided strictly in zones tied to player level ranges with not much incentives to be in places outside your level range (a.k.a. the biggest part of the world), in MO, where you were merily picking flowers yesterday, a tribe of trolls might have moved in this morning. I really love that unpredictability :)
That, along with your previous post, sounds great.
I know a lot of people are worried about the pvp/looting, but overall the game seems really interesting, and I can't wait to try it. The only other game I'm this interested in is Chronicles of Spellborn, which I'm waiting a few months to try.
How many mmo-failures does it take before sheeps quit going "OMGOMGOMG" over every piece of hype they are fed?
Here is my biggest issue with an open game like this: open PvP. Right now, I am playing in an RP-PvP Age of Conan which is pretty open, anyone can fight anybody. Right out of the gate, I step onto the White Sands Isle and get ganked by people several levels higher than I. Now, lets say someone in MO has played for a long time and knows what they are doing and have their skills trained while I step right out of a small village and they attack me. Will MO's gameplay allow me a fighting chance to beat said person? If so, then why do I even need to train skills? Why not just kill people with my lowbie sword all day long? If not, then it will just be another GIANT gankfest just like more open pvp games.
The major issue with open pvp is there is no way to tell a player, "Hey, this is a PvP game, but there is no reason to just kill and slaugher lowbies and people who can not fight back just because the game allows it" but then say "This is a PvP game! Lets slaughter people!". From the many pvp games I have played, Shadowbane and EQ (Vallon Zek Racial PvP) was the only ones that seemed to work for me.
I liked Vallon Zek because you knew who you could count on. I am human, I see a barbarian, lets group up! Oh there is a dwarf over there, be careful! You knew your enemies and allies (now sometimes people played the Lightie vs Darkie but that is different and is a server community thing).
Shadowbane I really do not have a clear memory of why it worked. I remember several times playing an Ireki (sp?) and learning a language that someone developed specifically for them. I was amazed by the community there. But from what I remember, that game was totally open also. But yet I do not remember being ganked.
There was an article that was recently published on a website, an interview with the head director for Age of Conan. What he said was that the issue with open PvP now days is that players and communities are different now. Back then, sure, people would kill you on sight, but rarely would they kill you again if they saw you. And a lot of times, they would fight fights that made sense with the game. Now days, people just want to kill you because the game will let us. They do not care about anything except just themselves and not their characters or others in game.
But, like every other company that has produced a MMO that allows PvP, how do you make it fair but fun. Maybe MO will find that sweet spot, if not, maybe a future company might find it. I loved the thrill of world PvP. Its the incesent killing of every person you can see for a mile just because the game allows it that has left a bitter taste in my otherwise sweet mouth.
Edit: I also looking foward to the openess of how the world will be in terms of non-PvP related stuff. Hopefully it will bring me back to my old EQ days of just running around in the world looking for interesting areas and meeting friendly, and not so friendly, people and creatures, it be AI controlled or player controlled.
MO sounds very interesting. I have been following this game for a while now and I think this one have alot of potantial.
Aye, Zyllos. Your fear of this becoming a ffa gankfest is shared by many people who are also attracted to all the other great aspects of this game.
I do think the devs are trying to prevent this from happening though. They are going out of their way to keep the total freedom but make the consequences realistic, so people will think twice before they attack or rob someone in towns and cities and really have to weigh their chances.
They have devised this pretty complex flagging system to deal with random pvp and theft in different situations and when you are being attacked or getting stolen from in towns you are able to call the guards on that person. You can also do this on people who only assist the 'criminal' with friendly spells for instance.
Also the first 20 hours you play on a new character you will be flagged as 'fledgling' and unable to be attacked (unless you are a bold fledgling and do nasty stuff yourself; than your invulnerability flag will be promptly removed). I also understood you can remove this flag if you don't fancy being invulnerable as a new player.
Coupled to the flagging system is a character linked token counter where you get to place a token on those who killed you; (but you can choose not to) if that person assembled 5 of those murder tokens in a certain time period he will be labeled a murderer with certain nasty consequences. If I remember correctly the cooldown is around 20 hours so it could be a pretty hefty price to pay for a PK'er in some occasions. I also read something about jails recently :)
Anyway, we will have to see how it pans out; it's pretty hard to balance realism and freedom in regard to world pvp but they try to accomodate both for lawfull & good as well as the evil / chaotic kind of player. We shall see :)
MO will have a flagging system, which AoC has not, in AoC, i believe in the open pvp server you can kill anyone without facing any consequence, in MO you are flagged Red (KOS) for 20 hours of game time when you "murder" someone, and the timer is cumulative.
The aim of this game is not to be a giant gank fest, that's not what they mean by open pvp. it means that In MO you are not restricted by stupid rules which says : "you cannot hit that target", actually you can hit anyone, but then you have to face consequences. It's the same for FFA, FFA here doesn't mean it will be a persistant deathmatch,it means that you have no "built-in" ennemies and friend. You make your own ennemies and friends, your choice.
MO is about freedom, but freedom doesn't necessary mean chaos.
About the fairness of pvp, the pvp-related skills are quite easy to train "in 2 weeks" said the devs. So why why having skills at all ? It's about choosing a playstyle, you can't be a ninja-mage-in-full-plate-with-a-giant-claymore but you are not restricted by rigid "classes". It's a bit as if each player created its own class by picking the skills he want.
Basically like Ultima Online but in 3D. There, I said it and without walls and walls of text.
I didn't play UO (shame on me) but yes it would be kind of a UO pre-Electronic Arts (i heard how they wasted the game, and continue to do it)
But when you say it's like UO, it doesn't give a clue to people who hadn't played it, so wall of texts are necessary :D
That's how I'm hoping it essentially turns out, granted it won't have the millions of items you can interact with and probably better AI for any mobs, but if it gets the UO basics nailed down then they'll be onto a winner.
Bringing up the AI in UO reminded me of the blade wall in the dungeon (can't remember the name) with the ogres and the giant tables.. Cast blade spirit (I think that was the name) and then run to the other side of the table and watch the ogres get taken down. For those that don't know: Ogres were very powerful and could kill you with just a few swipes, even if you were in full plate.
I remember going in there the first time they fixed it so they wouldn't get stuck.... About 6 ogres cornered me and smashed my face in before I could recall out. Took a good hour and 4 of my friends helping to get all of my inventory back. :D One of the bastards took my mandrake root though... (the ogre, not my friends)
Dont ALL MMO's have potential? ;)
I'm all for ffa PvP, but what's to stop a group of 20-30 people from camping inside a town and killing and robbing everyone. The guards better be pretty damn badass, I would hope there is a major deterrence from crime occuring within a town that only the most bravest or foolish would dare try and get away with it.
In UO guards were "pretty damn badass" as you put it. So if MO goes with the UO style guards, there would be no way someone would survive once the guards were called.
Personally I always felt the UO guards were a bit too much. One hit and you died. I would rather see at least SOME way to escape. Not by killing the guards, mind you, but by running away or rooting them (if there is going to be roots in the game). Of course the guards should have the utilities to counter this tactic, but at least it would give a very small chance to get away.
I liked running around towns shouting "GUARDS!!" all the time. The way that you had to manualy call them yourself was a nice little touch i thought.
Im sure guards will be badass, and if you kill too many blues, youll be so deep in stat loss that next time you die, youll be reduced to newbie.
Davo, look at your avatar quote. Within that you shall find your answer.
The deterrence is you and your friends and the others who finally decide to step-up and do something. Remember, this game is going to be about your personal skill and not fully reliant upon the "Holy Handgrenade of Antiok" or something that a guild has farmed endlessly so as to provide a significant advantage.
People who go "red" are taking as much a chance at losing their gear as those who are being ambushed. Think of this.. do you think it was good for your health, or a wise decision, to roam the countryside with your wares that you wanted to sell the following day in a large city? Or, was it equally as good for you to just, haphazardly, ambush a merchant caravan that is protected by guildies and perhaps a merc or ten?
There's alot more here to come so you might want to keep an open mind. I too hate the zerg aspect of some games and the destruction that it creates to some subscribers "gameplay." But I feel quite confident that Henrik, Mats and the rest of the dev team have this in their minds continuously.
Fantastic!sa