Originally posted by GidSlack

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by GidSlack

No, unfortunately the point here is that this sandbox is set up in such a way that you are at the mercy of players with negative qualities (here prejudice) in order to take advantage of what it has to offer.  This is a design flaw that, as far as I know, other sandbox games like Eve or Darkfall don't suffer from,

You are high.

Eve has gatecampers that gloat when they pop you, and everyone in Darkfall tries to cut your balls off immediately after noticing you. I've played both, so don't even try to argue about it with me. They are full of "players with negative qualities", and I'm suprised that all it took was a chat altercation to come to this conclusion with Ryzom.

/face

 

But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Ryzom sold as having a "great community" where people help you?  Yet, here you have just compared it to Eve and Darkfall, who communities are notoriously hostile.  I haven't played those games, so I defer to your experience.

I guess I'm working with an incorrect definition of "sandbox game".  My impression was that they allowed you to do what you want, including avoiding unpleasant players.  But I guess sandbox means *unable* to avoid unpleasant players. 

WTF man...

Look at the part I underlined in the quote above. It came from *your* words, not mine.

Anything you have to say from here on out is officially donkeyballs to me.

Originally posted by GidSlack

However, when I asked about going to another zone in general chat, the veteran who answered asked me if I was a "flamer" because I wanted to go to the elf-like forest homeland that was like the tutorial.

So, in order to have some basic fun in Ryzom, I'm at the mercy of a homophobic bigot?  No thanks.

May I ask how did you get to the conclusion that the veteran was a homophobic bigot, from his question about flaming?

(Also, to use "homophob" and "bigot" in the same description seems a bit superfluous. Just sayin`..)

I'd like to state that I have tryed Ryzom, and while I had quit a while ago, the community was pretty damn nice.

Originally posted by Dubhlaith

I see the point you are trying to make, but it simply is not true. You are at no one's mercy. You could make a new character and go where you want. You chose not to, and wanted someone to help you. You did not have to. You could have done something else. You might not have ADD, but you sound a little lazy for someone that wants to enjoy a game like Ryzom.

The point about not wanting to make another character is twofold:

1) By the time you find out it's nearly impossible to change your homeland, you have already spent about 20 hours (if you do the full tutorial) playing that character.  You could roll up another one, but then you are still exposed to the second point:

2) Even if you do start again in a homeland you like, there is still no way of moving ahead in the game without co-operating with people who you would not associate with in real life, or in another game for that matter.  There is a reason most games are now guild-based, rather than world or realm-based -- it improves the quality of play because you can control who you play with in the longterm.

And I don't think you can say I played Ryzom in a lazy way.  After I was called a "flamer" for wanting to trek to the forest homeland, I decided to try and make it on my own.  I tried 7 times over about two hours.   It was *absolutely* impossible.  I got to within about 500m of the teleporter that takes you there each time, but there was a line of level 250 predator mobs from cliff to cliff in the way.  There was no way to get through without being one-hit to death.

Originally posted by WraithHunter

Originally posted by GidSlack

However, when I asked about going to another zone in general chat, the veteran who answered asked me if I was a "flamer" because I wanted to go to the elf-like forest homeland that was like the tutorial.

So, in order to have some basic fun in Ryzom, I'm at the mercy of a homophobic bigot?  No thanks.

May I ask how did you get to the conclusion that the veteran was a homophobic bigot, from his question about flaming?

(Also, to use "homophob" and "bigot" in the same description seems a bit superfluous. Just sayin`..)

I'd like to state that I have tryed Ryzom, and while I had quit a while ago, the community was pretty damn nice.

A few points here.

Bigot just describes someone who is prejudiced, not specifically who their prejudices are against (though someone could be prejudiced against everyone).  Saying a bigot is "homophobic" just points out who the prejudice is directed against (here queer folk).

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the term "flamer", but it is very old epithet used to insult gay people.  Not as bad as the f word (f*gg*t), but still a well known insult.  An equivalent might be to call someone who is black a "coon" (where the n word would be the worst thing to say).

Basically the comment was that the veteran didn't like leading treks to the Matis forest realm because the Matis were "flamers" (elves are gay), that "flamers sux", and that he hoped I wasn't a "flamer".  To understand why this is insulting, imagine if a game had a merchant class, and the nickname for the merchant class was "kike" (old insult directed at Jews).  Now imagine if this veteran asked:  are you a "kike" ?(i.e. Merchant class player).  I don't like "kikes".  "Kikes sux."  Can you see how insulting that is?

I have to say that most of the veterans I met initially were absolutely lovely, some of the best people I've ever met in a game.  The only reason I didn't quit earlier, and actually tried to change homelands on my own, was that there were some players who were extremely kind and I didn't want to take their generosity lightly.  So I gave it my best shot.

As I said before, the problem I see is that you can't really play Ryzom without associating yourself with the bad apples in some way.  In more modern games, you just join a suitable guild and get on with it. 

It is obvious that you are trolling for the sake of it, but I just wanted to say, in the alleged incident, you are lazy because you did not want to re roll a character. 20 hours in nothing in a MMORPG. And letting one person, one incident determine your opinion of the entire community and therefore your ability to cooperate with other players is, frankly, insane.

I'm a bit torn deciding on the validity of the OP's statement and follow up responses. He apparently is attempting to answer them in an intelligent fashion and not resort to attacks that most trolls would have resorted to. OP, you mentioned that you have played other RPG's. Do you feel that 20 hours is a large investment? If I quit over the amount of times I was killed in EvE through "non-provoked" PvP(something I don't believe in)...I would have left in 2006.

It seems your primary complaint is the long travel times and forced grouping. You mentioned two other sandbox games that have those same exact qualities. EvE's travel time used to considerably worse, but it's gotten better. DF's travel time(w/o Runestones) still takes awhile. 

Grouping in both of these games is necessary to achieve what most of the game mechanics are designed for. PvE and quests are afterthoughts, specifically in EvE.  I agree that clan/group based games are and will always be driving force in a true sandbox game.

Your post, if not an elaborate troll attempt, isn't without credence. It is however a bit whiney to most of us sandbox players, which Ryzom is, not just because of the reasons mentioned. It is because someone or they are ruining YOUR game experience.

These type of posts are the preface to everyone that doesn't belong in these games, usually post. Understand that players that have these type of problems and QUIT over them are why players like me and many others STAY. Again, that isn't personally directed at you, but if the shoe fits, you might be related to Cinderella.

I hope you find something that suits your gaming needs.

---

Originally posted by GidSlack

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Originally posted by WraithHunter

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Originally posted by GidSlack

However, when I asked about going to another zone in general chat, the veteran who answered asked me if I was a "flamer" because I wanted to go to the elf-like forest homeland that was like the tutorial.
So, in order to have some basic fun in Ryzom, I'm at the mercy of a homophobic bigot?  No thanks.

---

May I ask how did you get to the conclusion that the veteran was a homophobic bigot, from his question about flaming?
(Also, to use "homophob" and "bigot" in the same description seems a bit superfluous. Just sayin`..)
I'd like to state that I have tryed Ryzom, and while I had quit a while ago, the community was pretty damn nice.

---

 
A few points here.
Bigot just describes someone who is prejudiced, not specifically who their prejudices are against (though someone could be prejudiced against everyone).  Saying a bigot is "homophobic" just points out who the prejudice is directed against (here queer folk).
I'm not sure if you are familiar with the term "flamer", but it is very old epithet used to insult gay people.  Not as bad as the f word (f*gg*t), but still a well known insult.  An equivalent might be to call someone who is black a "coon" (where the n word would be the worst thing to say).
Basically the comment was that the veteran didn't like leading treks to the Matis forest realm because the Matis were "flamers" (elves are gay), that "flamers sux", and that he hoped I wasn't a "flamer".  To understand why this is insulting, imagine if a game had a merchant class, and the nickname for the merchant class was "kike" (old insult directed at Jews).  Now imagine if this veteran asked:  are you a "kike" ?(i.e. Merchant class player).  I don't like "kikes".  "Kikes sux."  Can you see how insulting that is?
I have to say that most of the veterans I met initially were absolutely lovely, some of the best people I've ever met in a game.  The only reason I didn't quit earlier, and actually tried to change homelands on my own, was that there were some players who were extremely kind and I didn't want to take their generosity lightly.  So I gave it my best shot.
As I said before, the problem I see is that you can't really play Ryzom without associating yourself with the bad apples in some way.  In more modern games, you just join a suitable guild and get on with it. 

---

"The Matis are Flamers, they suck!"
"The breath fire?"
"No! They're elves! Get it?"
"Elves that are on fire? Neat!"
"NO! They're elves! Gay Elves!"
"Oh. With fire?"
"NO NO NO! GAY! FLAMERS ARE GAY!"
"Oh. Do they have bacon? You can cook bacon on a fire. Mmmmm, bacon."
*Veteran logs out*

I don't have anything really useful to contribute. A lot of times, people are what you make of them. They can be amusing little bumps in the road or they can be road blocks to fun. Sometimes you have a choice in which they are.

Originally posted by GidSlack

Bottom Line:  the introductory tutorial is false advertising.

I really enjoyed the Ruins of Silan introductory island.  I made a dual wielding Tryker figher and had a great time running around, killing roving predators and randomly helping people do their quests.  There was a great sense of having a versatile character in a living world, the short quest lines taught you most of the game commands and lore, and veteran players were on low level alts helping newcomers with gear and advice.  In short, it was a 100% postive experience.

Once you get to the mainland, however.  The game is nothing like this.

I chose the Tryker homeland.  Mistake.  This area consists of broken up islands connected by vast stretches of water.  On these islands, mobs are bunched together in concentrated groups.  You have to swim for long periods of time to get anywhere.  Swimming moves at about half the speed of normal, and you can't use your weapons.  Needless to say, it is extremely tedious to spend long stretches of playing time in this state.  Nowhere to be found was the wide-open, exciting playstyle shown in the tutorial, where you can explore and hunt mobs.  Basically, this area is one huge maze.

You can move to one of the other homelands, but this is basically impossible to do alone, as it requires travelling through high level zones.  To rectify a simple mistake that imposes a tedious playstyle on you, you need the help of veteran, high level characters to accompany you to the other zones.   This puts you at the mercy of the long-time players of the game.  Most of those I met were extremely nice, some of the best in any game.  However, when I asked about going to another zone in general chat, the veteran who answered asked me if I was a "flamer" because I wanted to go to the elf-like forest homeland that was like the tutorial.

So, in order to have some basic fun in Ryzom, I'm at the mercy of a homophobic bigot?  No thanks.  Delete and uninstall.  This is why forced grouping was removed from games.

You reasoned in a good manner but It seems you are a bit contradictory: you met many nice and friendly veteran but felt the need to leave because of a single elitist you found.

You have some reason when you speak about having the need to rely to olders, being pretty new to the game, but absolutely you are not forced to do.

Okay, you have choosen a wrong continent and you felt upset not being able to reach another land alone?

Others told you the solution (create another char) but you told it's not a solution. Well, how many times in other MMO you felt choosing a wrong faction or class and just rerolled to have what you were searching for?

All MMo have this situation, in some form or another...

What I think, you gave up too early.

Sneaking and trekking around the world is one of the best part of ryzom, because it rely to your own ability, no skill points no master, no spells, will give you the knowledge about how to survive in the world. You have to learn by yourself, in solo or within some friend. Do a trek with the wrong olders and you all will be death in few time. The high end areas, are deadly not only for lower lvl people, but even for the masters, if they don't do the right things. Having skills at 250 doesn't guarantee any easy travel, if you don't know what to do and where to go. Lear how to survive is one of the most important aspects of ryzom, that make the game so different. At the end, you are a survivor in a dangerous world, and that is exactly what you find in Atys.

If you feel frustrated at beginning is because the challenging world of Atys is not something you experience in any MMO. It's unique.

So, why you just don't forget the single "elitist" and try to stay with the other good people you met?

Also, in any MMO newcomers have the risk to join a wrong guild, where they are served as slaves... but it all depends by you.

The good of MMOs is that you can always search and find the right people to play with, but only if you really want to.

By the way, Ryzom is group oriented, but I assure you that, if you take the high challenge, you can solo all the time to acquire the knowldge of the "world". Of course, there are things that need grouping, but also high skills, so it's not something you are losing at beginning.

There is nothing you can't do at lower skills and absolutely need the help of veterans, except some trek.

But, while Tryker->Matis thru Heretic Hovel can be a pain (because you can't really sneak, but you could make some good use of running speed+invuln+mpa once you know where the safe spots are inside, in form of small lakes), there are other treks doable even at level 1, of course if you already know the game.

For a newcomer, it's all about getting the knowledge, as in any MMO.

Treks can be very fun but they are also extremely long, depending on how well you are at sneaking and how much of the landscape you know. Of course, not everyone enjoy this kind of experience.

Why you just don't try to meet the right people and give the game another try?

Consider it as another challenge from a sandbox game that rely on player-interactions.

Hi GidSlack,

Originally posted by Gilgameesh

You reasoned in a good manner but It seems you are a bit contradictory: you met many nice and friendly veteran but felt the need to leave because of a single elitist you found.

[...]

So, why you just don't forget the single "elitist" and try to stay with the other good people you met?

[...]

Thanks very much for taking the time to answer my post, I really appreciate what you have said.

I would say though that the problem of homophobia here was not limited to one "bad apple".  To me, it appeared that the larger Ryzom community tolerated this prejudice.  And that, coupled with the fact that I would need that community in order to enjoy the game, was probably the main motivation behind uninstalling the game.

Before this particular veteran made his comment about "flamers", and asked if I was one, he was talking and joking with 3 or 4 other veterans in general chat.  This included veterans who had personally helped me earlier the game.  It was clear from this that the bigot was an integral part of the community, friends with some of the great people I had met earlier.

You could argue these great people didn't know their fellow veteran was prejudiced.  Why then did none of the other veterans active in chat correct his homophobic comments when they were made?  Not only did they not correct them, but after they were made, they continued to have a friendly conversation with him.  To me, the conclusion was inescapable:  the Ryzom community tolerates homophobia.

 Again, you could argue that there is homophobia in every online game (and you would probably be right).  But the point I made before is that in most other games, including sandboxy ones like Eve Online, you can make your own little guild community free of prejudice.  In Ryzom, that's just not possible.

You could argue these great people didn't know their fellow veteran was prejudiced.  Why then did none of the other veterans active in chat correct his homophobic comments when they were made?  Not only did they not correct them, but after they were made, they continued to have a friendly conversation with him.  To me, the conclusion was inescapable:  the Ryzom community tolerates homophobia.

 

To some the conclusion that the world is flat is inescapable.

 

 Again, you could argue that there is homophobia in every online game (and you would probably be right).  But the point I made before is that in most other games, including sandboxy ones like Eve Online, you can make your own little guild community free of prejudice.  In Ryzom, that's just not possible.

 

Yes you can. Press 'f' ingame. Add the offending player name to the ignore list and 'add'. I have ~10 people in my ignore list and scores more in my friend list

Originally posted by squareRoot-1

You could argue these great people didn't know their fellow veteran was prejudiced.  Why then did none of the other veterans active in chat correct his homophobic comments when they were made?  Not only did they not correct them, but after they were made, they continued to have a friendly conversation with him.  To me, the conclusion was inescapable:  the Ryzom community tolerates homophobia.

 

To some the conclusion that the world is flat is inescapable.

 

 Again, you could argue that there is homophobia in every online game (and you would probably be right).  But the point I made before is that in most other games, including sandboxy ones like Eve Online, you can make your own little guild community free of prejudice.  In Ryzom, that's just not possible.

 

Yes you can. Press 'f' ingame. Add the offending player name to the ignore list To and 'add'. I have ~10 people in my ignore list and scores more in my friend list

To address your points:

1) That the earth is flat is disproved by the evidence.  That Ryzom has a homophobic-tolerant community was proved by the evidence (see the "flamer" incident as recounted above).  To deny this homophobia, in the face of such evidence, is a flat-worlder view.

2) Ryzom has an ignore list like any other game.  This, however, is not a solution to the design flaw in the game where new players are almost completely at the mercy of veterans (part of the reason why Ryzom went bankrupt twice).  In a perfect world, all those veterans would be helpful, considerate people looking out for your best interest.

But in the imperfect world of which Ryzom is a part, some of those veterans are intent on pushing homophobia on others, and the rest allow it to happen.  As was said before, the solution in other games to this universal problem, is to make the larger features guild-based so you can play free of negatives like prejudice.  

That solution just doesn't exist in Ryzom, and presumably at this late stage never will.  The tutorial island that was added two years after launch tried to correct for this problem, but it obviously wasn't enough, and the game soon went into bankruptcy.  A lesson for game designers.

While your responses are eloquent and well intentioned, I feel that you either;

1) feel the need to prove that prejudice exists in an online game or

2) that you feel that you need to "win" this thread. I think you should avoid all Sandbox games in the future. I don't doubt that what you are saying is true.

I also feel that you are just stating facts? that this game caters to asshats. I would offer to you..toughen up a bit? Ignore list options were mentioned and you felt this wasn't the answer to the larger problem of what this game allows.

Do you argue this passioniately for everything? All sarcasm aside, you are just the type of personality that has a calling for the legal field.  I mean you have made several articulate posts about why you quit an endeavor that requires you to interact online with anonymous people through an avatar and have found a social injustice. You are determined or simply adamant about your intolerance for such behavior.

What have you achieved? You cancelled a subscription to a game that you initial enjoyed. Are you satisified with your decision? Are you now posting here to let others know, in a non attacking way that Ryzom allows for deviant behavior and should be avoided?

I strongly urge you to avoid any online experience that facilitates interdependence of others and anonymity. I think you will continue to find behavior or actions that are not conducive to your ethics. Perhaps you should avoid online gaming all together. Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

To address your points:

1) That the earth is flat is disproved by the evidence.  That Ryzom has a homophobic-tolerant community was proved by the evidence (see the "flamer" incident as recounted above).  To deny this homophobia, in the face of such evidence, is a flat-worlder view.

You're evidence only proves the obvious.....that in this game (and likely every game) there exist trolls or people who are truly prejudiced and that there exist people who tolerate them. What you have offered is one incident that took place one one day in one hour. No sound person would use one incident to conlcude that this is indicative of a community in general. To make that conclusion soundly and rigorously you would need a preponderance of evidence compiled at different times of day over many weeks/months.  The community not only includes the player base, but the CSR/GMs as well. You would then need to show their complicity.

2) Ryzom has an ignore list like any other game.  This, however, is not a solution to the design flaw in the game where new players are almost completely at the mercy of veterans (part of the reason why Ryzom went bankrupt twice).  In a perfect world, all those veterans would be helpful, considerate people looking out for your best interest.

Ryzom also has a CoC like any other game. It reads in part:

THE FOLLOWING RULES GOVERN THE CODE OF CONDUCTS IN THE RYZOM SERVICES (MEANING THE GAME 'RYZOM', OR ANY OFFICIAL RYZOM OR WINCH GATE PROPERTY LIMITED WEB SITE, CHAT, FORUM ETC). FAILURE TO RESPECT ANY OF THE ARTICLES LISTED BELOW WIL LEAD TO A SUSPENSION OR BAN OF ACCESS TO THE RYZOM SERVICES WITHOUT ANY NOTICES OR WARNING. NO REFUND OF ANY KIND WILL BE GIVEN TO PERSONES IN BREACH OF THE CODE OF CONDUCT.

You may not use any harmful, hateful, abusive, vulgar, defamatory, obscene, racial, ethnically offensive, nor sexually explicit language to any other players or Customer Service Representatives.

You may not organize nor be part of any guilds or groups that are based on, or espouse, any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay or other hate-mongering philosophy.

Ryzom also has a feature to report violations. Help > Support > harassment/profanity. Did you bother to report the violation? Did you take a screenshot or use fraps to record the evidence? If you did, how did the GM/CSR respond?

But in the imperfect world of which Ryzom is a part, some of those veterans are intent on pushing homophobia on others, and the rest allow it to happen.

Did you do your part to ensure that "some of those veterans" were disciplined. "The rest". Awfully broad brush you have there Picasso. What you meant was, the rest who were online and were reading uni chat on the server you were on. Ryzom is often touted for its uniqueness. Unique does not always imply good. When I was playing alot many moons ago, uni was actual "ryzom Q&A only". It was not what most people would consider uni chat. If you started chatting about things other than Q&A the CSR/GM would give a warning. If it was not heeded then uni would be muted for some amount of time. I haven't the faintest idea why it was not labelled 'Ryzom Q&A'. Not everyone (at that time) read uni. It may be different today.

Here the link to CeB (found on the Ryzom home page), which is where all complaints can be addressed.

http://www.ryzom.com/en/mmorpg-rpg-mmo-support.html

There are usually a couple of Game masters on who look at the problems that players are having, including harassment ones.

As well, in the UI box there is a '?' which will give one the opportunity to report bugs and submit harassment tickets.

Most players in Ryzom will not tolerate harassment.

Please note that I have already mentioned this thread to Game Master Sywindt.

Ryzom is game with realy good community. Joined guild after day I started and was still in tutorial area. In few days after tutorial finishing got all 4 capitals. People were realy helpful. You may run to few assholes but every game has some ammount of them, Ryzom has very low. Dont let those idiots destroy your fun.

I quit myself after few months, but for totally different reasons...

Houston, I think we have an issue of linguistic misinterpretation here. Let me give you a little crash course in "Ryzom Language 101" before we get all mistakenly labeled as homophobic intolerants.

Flamer : Someone who criticizes the game negatively, most often in a manner that can be perceived as rude or offending towards the community, someone who complains exaggerately. Of course, perceptions of rudeness and exaggerate complaining can and will be distorted by the use of written language on the internet and is ENTIRELY SUBJECTIVE. "Flamer" is often used as a synonym of Troll.

You said yourself that, in your own vocabulary, flamer is an OLD epithet that means gay or homosexual, in this context, the meaning doesn't apply as it is highly outdated. Most people in Ryzom won't even consider that possible meaning when saying Flamer. It is almost as if it never existed. Thus, in a gaming context, you can nearly always assume that flamer = troll.

It is true that the Ryzom community isn't very welcoming to trolls and flamers (as in annoying people that bring about conflict and negativity) because, well... they are considered to be bad publicity for the game. And, since they are mostly annoying as hell... no one will try to help them because, to be put bluntly, they are not welcome, and the fact that we actually don't want them to stay has NOTHING to do with their sexual orientation.

Oh and... the only reason we say the Forest people are overly girly... is because even the guys use too much make up and hairspray... and it's actually part of the lore. It doesn't mean they are homosexual, just that they like to be... pretty. Just like some of our metrosexual boys are perfectly straight but like to look good. We do tease them a bit about it, but I have NEVER seen in 4 years of Ryzom someone rejecting a Matis player and calling him gay. Never.

Also, the trek through Loria and the Heretic Hovels IS hard and painful as hell to newbies and oldies alike and that path is hardly ever used at all. Most elder players would rather trek you all around Atys than bring a squishy newcommer that dies in one hit through Loria and the MAZE OF HELL that is the Heretic Hovels bit. No place to sneak around aggro means you have to blast through or play the waiting game for hours. Hardcore gamers might do it as a challenge, most will consider it an efficient method to commit ingame suicide... multiple times. One thing to know is that, in trekking, you are not trying to gain experience, so death penalty matters not.

It's the first time I ever hear of someone interpreting the word flamer in that sense and making up stories about the community being a bunch of homophobic biggots. Thus, I really have to call shenanigans on that one.

Oh, and if you ever hear about someone going out to smoke a fag, it's a british player going out for a cigarette... not to light homosexual people on fire. And a faggot is also a ballot of wood branches. Just so you know.

 (P.S. I have a college degree in Languages.)

Bounty beaches which goes from the Lakes to Trench of Trials (named that way for a reason) and eventually ends up in the Zorai region of Witherings is possibly worse for newcomers.  There is alot more agro in and around the BB - ToT portal.  Even with my main toon, I have a very hard time getting through the cutes, zerx, torbaks and Kitin (might have forgotten some).

So...if I call GidSlack a flamer here, does that mean MMORPG.com sucks and he's going to ragequit the forums?

I'm all for people treating each other politely, but Jesus H Christ, there comes a point where you you just to admit social gaming isn't for you because you're too damned sensitive. 

Also, elves are scrawny, sissified 'fae' creatures who prance around in the forest talking to animals and wearing tights.  If comparisons between them and homosexual sterotypes are going to make you shit yourself with rage, maybe the fantasy genre isn't for you either. 

I mean, the fact that Ryzom is based around playing a member of a race (determined by skin color, nose size, etc) that each get special 'racial abilities' SHOULD have had you firing off hatemails before you even got through character creation, as strident as you seem to be.