Bottom Line:  the introductory tutorial is false advertising.

I really enjoyed the Ruins of Silan introductory island.  I made a dual wielding Tryker figher and had a great time running around, killing roving predators and randomly helping people do their quests.  There was a great sense of having a versatile character in a living world, the short quest lines taught you most of the game commands and lore, and veteran players were on low level alts helping newcomers with gear and advice.  In short, it was a 100% postive experience.

Once you get to the mainland, however.  The game is nothing like this.

I chose the Tryker homeland.  Mistake.  This area consists of broken up islands connected by vast stretches of water.  On these islands, mobs are bunched together in concentrated groups.  You have to swim for long periods of time to get anywhere.  Swimming moves at about half the speed of normal, and you can't use your weapons.  Needless to say, it is extremely tedious to spend long stretches of playing time in this state.  Nowhere to be found was the wide-open, exciting playstyle shown in the tutorial, where you can explore and hunt mobs.  Basically, this area is one huge maze.

You can move to one of the other homelands, but this is basically impossible to do alone, as it requires travelling through high level zones.  To rectify a simple mistake that imposes a tedious playstyle on you, you need the help of veteran, high level characters to accompany you to the other zones.   This puts you at the mercy of the long-time players of the game.  Most of those I met were extremely nice, some of the best in any game.  However, when I asked about going to another zone in general chat, the veteran who answered asked me if I was a "flamer" because I wanted to go to the elf-like forest homeland that was like the tutorial.

So, in order to have some basic fun in Ryzom, I'm at the mercy of a homophobic bigot?  No thanks.  Delete and uninstall.  This is why forced grouping was removed from games.

Hmm, treking is a sort of right of passage for Ryzom.  There are plenty of nice people in the game, but every game has it's miscreants.

Although if you want to participate in anything social in the game you are indeed at the whims of the long time players.

I actually quit because I was basically part of a heal battery for some high level. Bored me to death.

Originally posted by terroni

Hmm, treking is a sort of right of passage for Ryzom.  There are plenty of nice people in the game, but every game has it's miscreants.

Although if you want to participate in anything social in the game you are indeed at the whims of the long time players.

I actually quit because I was basically part of a heal battery for some high level. Bored me to death.

I was thinking about this some more, and there is a reason that Ryzom went bankrupt.  It wasn't because it was "niche", it was because it was a poorly designed game.

The four racial capitals, including the Tryker lake district and all its swimming, were the starter areas when Ryzom shipped.  The tutorial island was added later.  Because the tutorial is nothing like the game itself, it was obvious why it was added:  the old starter areas were so bad most people would say, stuff this, I'll go play Warcraft (or Star Wars Galaxies pre-NGE for deep crafting).  The devs obviously learned the WoW lesson and made the tutorial pure fun, unlike the actual game environment they originally designed.

There's another lesson too, similar to the Ultima Online pre-Trammel experience.  Utopian ideals of pure freedom in MMO's always end in tears.  Someone said that Ryzom had a "hippie economy" and it's true.  There's no auction house, so everything is hand made and shared amongst people.  This means you soon have a network of reciprocal obligations like a real community, and that personally, you are really making a difference in other people's play experience.

But this also means there's no way of protecting yourself against ingame bigots who ruin your experience short of uninstalling.   I don't associate with bigots in real life, so I avoid them in games, and the only way to do that in Ryzom was to uninstall.

Why let one player ruin your gaming experience.

I think you were being oversensitive, and its clear the Ryzom wasn't really for you.

Its OK, some games really are too hard.

You had 5 characters slots...

I used the free trial to take 4 out to each mainland, figured on which one I liked best, then kept one on the starter isle to help others pass it. The forest or jungle ended up being my favs, so I played on the two characters that I had there. Simple.

Originally posted by GTwander

You had 5 characters slots...

I used the free trial to take 4 out to each mainland, figured on which one I liked best, then kept one on the starter isle to help others pass it. The forest or jungle ended up being my favs, so I played on the two characters that I had there. Simple.

And that is explained in the tutorial where?

The Karavan teleporter actually tells you that chosing a captial is an important decision, but that you will be able to change it later.

What they don't tell you is that some of the starter areas are designed around tedious gameplay, and that in order to get back to the fun, you have to depend on the charity of veteran players to trek you across the map, players who may or may not be vocal bigots.

You only learn this after investing 20+ hours in your first character.  At that point, starting again really isn't a option, who knows what other surprises are in store.

Originally posted by GidSlack

You only learn this after investing 20+ hours in your first character.  At that point, starting again really isn't a option, who knows what other surprises are in store.

I learned it in the first 15 minutes, because I got on the chat and started asking questions. That's when I decided I'd try them all out, and I actually redid the noob isle 4 times to try out different specs - which I didn't need to do - because you can leave the noob isle at any given time and go straight to the mainland (something else acquired by "asking questions", try it sometime).

You'd also be given that latter hint about leaving early if you bothered to read the text dialog as well.

there's a reason MMO's are the way they are now.  you just found that reason.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Why let one player ruin your gaming experience.

I think you were being oversensitive, and its clear the Ryzom wasn't really for you.

Its OK, some games really are too hard.

 

 

My complaint wasn't that the game was hard, but that part of it was extremely *tedious*, and that that tedious part was hard to escape from.

By all means make a challenging game (such games probably keep more players in the long run).  But don't create tedious gameplay in your game, and then make it impossible to move to funner areas you know exist. 

That's just an exercise in frustration, and nothing kills a gaming experience dead more than frustration.

I just told you that the "tedious" part (the noob isle) can be skipped. Can you not be bothered to absorb facts, or what?

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by GidSlack

You only learn this after investing 20+ hours in your first character.  At that point, starting again really isn't a option, who knows what other surprises are in store.

I learned it in the first 15 minutes, because I got on the chat and started asking questions. That's when I decided I'd try them all out, and I actually redid the noob isle 4 times to try out different specs - which I didn't need to do - because you can leave the noob isle at any given time and go straight to the mainland (something else acquired by "asking questions", try it sometime).

You'd also be given that latter hint about leaving early if you bothered to read the text dialog as well.

I actually asked in Universe chat if I should do all the quests to the end, or leave early for the Mainland.  (You can't say I was a selfish soloer; that isn't true).

I was advised that you could leave as early as level 1, but that finishing the quests to the end did provide some good equipment.  (Which was true, the second-to-last quest from Chiang gives you a full set of armour).  So I finished the quests.

I also did read all the quest text straight through.  It was really well-written, and the story of Altys, the living planet was excellent.  The Ryzom quests are probably the best I've seen in a graphical MMO (probably because of the lore), and on a par with what I used to read in text MUDs.  The only flaw was that Chiang got a little over-enthusiastic with his praise for saving the world (which clearly wasn't true).

I did everything right when I started playing Ryzom because I wanted it to be a good experience, and a possible new home.  But it wasn't, for reasons detailed above.

I tried that game some time ago. I fpund a lot of nice players always ready to help or give money or items. Can't remember why I left.

Originally posted by GTwander

I just told you that the "tedious" part (the noob isle) can be skipped. Can you not be bothered to absorb facts, or what?

I think you've misread my post.

My basic argument is that the noob isle was 100% fun, and that the tedious part started once you got to the Tryker homeland (having to swim everywhere) and not being able to get back to the fun without high level help.

Originally posted by alakram

I tried that game some time ago. I fpund a lot of nice players always ready to help or give money or items. Can't remember why I left.

Probably because there wasn't enough of them as a visual presence once you get to the mainland. I seriously ran into one person on all four mainland starter cities during my playtime.

Sorry that your experience sucked. It sounds like you gave up pretty fast. Honestly, I played it several years ago, and the starter area I didn't find too bad. I liked the character creation. I enjoyed that you could build your spells and the foraging for mats was a bit different.

I got bored with it, but I didn't join a group. I think playing a few MMO's has taught me that no matter how good the game is, it really all goes back to whom you are playing with. 

Crafting wasn't bad. Overall the game was fun, but a bit unremarkable. I remember cancelling and not really caring either way. I believe the French company was still in charge of it back then. Not sure if it got any better.

Good luck finding a game that is more suited to your needs. Patience doesn't seem to be your strong point though. I would avoid sandbox style games and stick with quest driven games. Fast cash prizes and quick xp rewards aren't usually found in sandbox games.

Originally posted by CactusJack

Sorry that your experience sucked. It sounds like you gave up pretty fast. Honestly, I played it several years ago, and the starter area I didn't find too bad. I liked the character creation. I enjoyed that you could build your spells and the foraging for mats was a bit different.

I got bored with it, but I didn't join a group. I think playing a few MMO's has taught me that no matter how good the game is, it really all goes back to whom you are playing with. 

Crafting wasn't bad. Overall the game was fun, but a bit unremarkable. I remember cancelling and not really caring either way. I believe the French company was still in charge of it back then. Not sure if it got any better.

Good luck finding a game that is more suited to your needs. Patience doesn't seem to be your strong point though. I would avoid sandbox style games and stick with quest driven games. Fast cash prizes and quick xp rewards aren't usually found in sandbox games.

My point was not that the sandbox nature of Ryzom was boring or not "fast" enough.  I was actually excited to try a game that would be like the old MUDs I used to play in terms of complexity.  (I also played on the new Linux client, so you can't accuse me of having ADD).

No, unfortunately the point here is that this sandbox is set up in such a way that you are at the mercy of players with negative qualities (here prejudice) in order to take advantage of what it has to offer.  This is a design flaw that, as far as I know, other sandbox games like Eve or Darkfall don't suffer from, as you can see from their success (relative success in the case of Darkfall).  Ryzom went bankrupt, they have not.  And the reason was not bugs, or poor marketing.

As for the matter of having to swim everywhere.  There's nothing sandboxy about being unable to leave a zone with unpalatable game play.  That's just poor game design.

I see the point you are trying to make, but it simply is not true. You are at no one's mercy. You could make a new character and go where you want. You chose not to, and wanted someone to help you. You did not have to. You could have done something else. You might not have ADD, but you sound a little lazy for someone that wants to enjoy a game like Ryzom.

Originally posted by GidSlack

No, unfortunately the point here is that this sandbox is set up in such a way that you are at the mercy of players with negative qualities (here prejudice) in order to take advantage of what it has to offer.  This is a design flaw that, as far as I know, other sandbox games like Eve or Darkfall don't suffer from,

You are high.

Eve has gatecampers that gloat when they pop you, and everyone in Darkfall tries to cut your balls off immediately after noticing you. I've played both, so don't even try to argue about it with me. They are full of "players with negative qualities", and I'm suprised that all it took was a chat altercation to come to this conclusion with Ryzom.

/face

Originally posted by GTwander

Originally posted by GidSlack

No, unfortunately the point here is that this sandbox is set up in such a way that you are at the mercy of players with negative qualities (here prejudice) in order to take advantage of what it has to offer.  This is a design flaw that, as far as I know, other sandbox games like Eve or Darkfall don't suffer from,

You are high.

Eve has gatecampers that gloat when they pop you, and everyone in Darkfall tries to cut your balls off immediately after noticing you. I've played both, so don't even try to argue about it with me. They are full of "players with negative qualities", and I'm suprised that all it took was a chat altercation to come to this conclusion with Ryzom.

/face

But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't Ryzom sold as having a "great community" where people help you?  Yet, here you have just compared it to Eve and Darkfall, who communities are notoriously hostile.  I haven't played those games, so I defer to your experience.

I guess I'm working with an incorrect definition of "sandbox game".  My impression was that they allowed you to do what you want, including avoiding unpleasant players.  But I guess sandbox means *unable* to avoid unpleasant players.