Originally posted by Tuyet

 Aeralin, you are wrong about my gameplay -- I have been Multiboxing for 10 years iirc.

I not only put a lot of effort into the gameplay but also everything I need to accomplish it.

I have spent weeks making my furniture to 4 box Ryzom.

My characters are in sync because I place the mouse cursors over the macros that i expect to be using next -- if I'm caught off guard, I'm gonna have problems -- which is why I'm not very good at OP battles 4 boxing -- gameplay at OPs is just too fast and unpredictable for my 4 boxing to be very effrective --- some of best effects for factions I have supported have come when the other faction focus's on me, I can distinctly remembering twice my 4 going done and my rezzing thinking we had lost the battle only to find out the others had won the battle, hehe.

As regards Power Leveling -- It is legal and you do it too. I have seen many guilds attempt pretty much the same thing the 2 of us did. You may not have wanted to do PLing with me helping you but it was a challenge for me to do it. PLing another player to Master PR dig and ability to do all craft patterns in game was a big accomplishment for me that took a lot of effort on my part and the other players part. It pushed my boxing ability to the max, by far the most difficult grinding activity I have boxed. By the way it was also a very big challenge for the other player too, to me it looked like it was about as hard for her playing one character as it was for me to do my 4 boxing part PLing her. I believe it was actually a lot harder and more fun than the normal way players level their dig skills. It was also a lot faster -- about 2-3 months, 4-6 hours a day iirc. And it was a Social Activity for both of us. We did not bot -- either of us!!!!

It was also a disappointment to me that you were not up for it as I had things I wanted to try out Pling you and her at the same time, but after PLing her, I doubt any of them would have worked even if you had been willing to put forth the effort.

As for SMs leaving Ryzom, SM was a very good ingame friend of mine and yes I do blame you for creating the situation that caused her and my other very good ingame friend to leave Ryzom. And maybe I wouldn't have joined those complaining of blatant and major violations of botting and sharing of characters if I was still allied with you and your allies.

As for a lot of players disliking me. I have never botted, never even looked for botting hardware or software. Many players seeing me 4 box and 4 box well from reactions I get -- presume and believe that I bot -- and no matter how much I try and tell them I don't, they just do not believe me. Even you and the great 6 boxer who have spent weeks doing ingame activities with me, think I bot.

There are several other reasons many of the other players dislike me and I dislike them, There are many legitimate game activities that cause friction among players and sometimes lead to disliking of others -- for instance I don't think Iala or Gilga much care for me or I them. I don't expect to like everyone or everyone to like me. Oh btw, not everyone dislikes me, some even like me.

Guess I need to make a home movie of myself 4 boxing and killing Raj, Kinkoo, trekking thru PR, digging Kitin Larvae, etc... and then you'ld still think I doctored the video, right?

As for your violation of the Rules of Behavior, you can read obviously. Read it -- no sharing of characters! When you create an account -- its your account and no one elses ever, simple ( my opinion of course ).

That goes for Spouses, Children, Parents, other relatives, Friends, Guildies -- just as much as it does for 2 players living on opposite sides of the world who only interact in Ryzom. Nowl, I could care less of minor violations but I have already posted what it has led to ingame and I did complain to the GMs about it.

There's a free 21 day trial for anyone that wants to try out Ryzom for free, of course your free to have anyone watch you play Ryzom.

As for myself, I am the only person who has ever played any of the characters on my 4 accounts.

Glaz, Isahbel, Dureena, Galenn

The thing with SM is you don't know what the hell you're talking about. SM created that bs and ONLY SM. So the way you treated Aeralin was uncalled for. Simple as that. 

Originally posted by Tuyet

 Aeralin, you are wrong about my gameplay -- I have been Multiboxing for 10 years iirc.

I not only put a lot of effort into the gameplay but also everything I need to accomplish it.

I have spent weeks making my furniture to 4 box Ryzom.

My characters are in sync because I place the mouse cursors over the macros that i expect to be using next -- if I'm caught off guard, I'm gonna have problems -- which is why I'm not very good at OP battles 4 boxing -- gameplay at OPs is just too fast and unpredictable for my 4 boxing to be very effrective --- some of best effects for factions I have supported have come when the other faction focus's on me, I can distinctly remembering twice my 4 going done and my rezzing thinking we had lost the battle only to find out the others had won the battle, hehe.

As regards Power Leveling -- It is legal and you do it too. I have seen many guilds attempt pretty much the same thing the 2 of us did. You may not have wanted to do PLing with me helping you but it was a challenge for me to do it. PLing another player to Master PR dig and ability to do all craft patterns in game was a big accomplishment for me that took a lot of effort on my part and the other players part. It pushed my boxing ability to the max, by far the most difficult grinding activity I have boxed. By the way it was also a very big challenge for the other player too, to me it looked like it was about as hard for her playing one character as it was for me to do my 4 boxing part PLing her. I believe it was actually a lot harder and more fun than the normal way players level their dig skills. It was also a lot faster -- about 2-3 months, 4-6 hours a day iirc. And it was a Social Activity for both of us. We did not bot -- either of us!!!!

It was also a disappointment to me that you were not up for it as I had things I wanted to try out Pling you and her at the same time, but after PLing her, I doubt any of them would have worked even if you had been willing to put forth the effort.

As for SMs leaving Ryzom, SM was a very good ingame friend of mine and yes I do blame you for creating the situation that caused her and my other very good ingame friend to leave Ryzom. And maybe I wouldn't have joined those complaining of blatant and major violations of botting and sharing of characters if I was still allied with you and your allies.

As for a lot of players disliking me. I have never botted, never even looked for botting hardware or software. Many players seeing me 4 box and 4 box well from reactions I get -- presume and believe that I bot -- and no matter how much I try and tell them I don't, they just do not believe me. Even you and the great 6 boxer who have spent weeks doing ingame activities with me, think I bot.

There are several other reasons many of the other players dislike me and I dislike them, There are many legitimate game activities that cause friction among players and sometimes lead to disliking of others -- for instance I don't think Iala or Gilga much care for me or I them. I don't expect to like everyone or everyone to like me. Oh btw, not everyone dislikes me, some even like me.

Guess I need to make a home movie of myself 4 boxing and killing Raj, Kinkoo, trekking thru PR, digging Kitin Larvae, etc... and then you'ld still think I doctored the video, right?

As for your violation of the Rules of Behavior, you can read obviously. Read it -- no sharing of characters! When you create an account -- its your account and no one elses ever, simple ( my opinion of course ).

That goes for Spouses, Children, Parents, other relatives, Friends, Guildies -- just as much as it does for 2 players living on opposite sides of the world who only interact in Ryzom. Nowl, I could care less of minor violations but I have already posted what it has led to ingame and I did complain to the GMs about it.

There's a free 21 day trial for anyone that wants to try out Ryzom for free, of course your free to have anyone watch you play Ryzom.

As for myself, I am the only person who has ever played any of the characters on my 4 accounts.

Glaz, Isahbel, Dureena, Galenn

As I said, you've an issue with my using my husband's account, ticket me.  Simple really.

You prove my point, that botting and running several toons on several different computers looks identical.  And yet, players who run multiple toons are followed by CSRs.  I don't doubt that multi-boxing can be done by a single person's hand, on multiple systems at that.  I've seen builds that allow just that and look the same as any given software.  Once again, I do not use this software.  I see why others are upset by it.  I also see the other side of the coin.  I see players who went to those responsible for right from wrong, and those responsible did nothing.  And now, they revise their decision, which they have the right to do.  I'm not asking that they even reverse their decision, although it would make lots of people I know happy.  I'm asking that they be professional.  Convey the decision change as Boroshi posted in the past.  Make the ToS less vague.  Leave no room for interpretation.  I'm not asking for Rocket Science, just simple change.

I also never said I haven't powerlevelled, nor would I.  I have 1 alt, 1 simple alt.  At times, I feel guilty for even using him, but over time, I've seen the difference that alt makes for my main, my guild, the amount I can give back to Atys.  If the CSR's see fit to ban me for this, so be it.  At least I'd have a clear cut answer. 

Regarding SM, you didn't live inside of HoT.  You got to see the sweet SM who bent over backwards for your help.  You didn't see the insults she hurled at guildies, the way she treated me and others for having a different play style than she had.  I asked for change within guild.  I asked for a chance to make change.  I gave months and months for that to happen.  I asked SM to stay in game, to prove me wrong.   I left HoT because I didn't want it to implode.  I didn't want to create innerguild drama that would cause it to ultimately fall apart.  Instead, I waited patiently for change, and when it didn't come, after giving notice that I was very unhappy, I left HoT.  I even respected you enough to tell you personally of my decision, which took a lot tbh.  Those who followed me did so of their own volition.   It's apparent they were staying because I was in HoT, and when I left, so did they.  I left HoT because logging in every day felt like going to work, and being the buffer between an unhappy guild and an egocentric GL wasn't my position of choice. 

The other player who left game, Elo, I had personal reasons for not admitting to IF.  She and I never got along.  She talked about me behind my back to other guildies.  Told others I was just a cat dispenser, that I was an ineffective leader, that the title of HO meant nothing.  She fed into the very innerguild drama that I wanted to avoid, and lead to my leaving HoT.  In addition, the other founders of IF had personal issues with her as well.  Calling people noobs because they don't have as many titles as you do doesn't tend to go over well.  Lording titles, when she was powerlevelled from start to finish, was insulting to those of us who'd worked like hell for our titles.  If you feel the need to blame me that your friend didn't play well with others, then so be it.

I don't expect anyone in game or out to like me.  My merits or lack thereof speaks for itself.  I've worked hard to make IF successful, and will continue to do so.  I love my guildies, and my friends.  They are all family to me.  Anyone who takes the time to get to know me can join that family as well.  I don't ask for anything for IF, and expect nothing as well.  We have fun in our little corner of Atys, and, as my little guild grows, even attracting members of other guilds because they see us having so much fun,  I look forward to sharing everything I have and who I am on Atys and in RL with those who care to ask.  Judge me as you will, anyone is welcome.  

I play Ryzom because I love our community. I feel at home on Atys when I have nowhere else.  I play Ryzom because it's fun, and, yes, fun is relative.  I play Ryzom because I can go on a midnight mektoub run through PR with my guildies and laugh my ass off when we all die.  I play Ryzom because I can dig a zone til the KT expires, have a friend show up to watch me die, laugh at me, and then rez my bum.  I play Ryzom because I love it, just as the rest of you do. 

How have I treated Aeralin after SM left -- I guess ignoring someone could be considered unfriendly but I basically do what I believe is reccommended if you don't get along with someone ingame -- play elsewhere as much as you can. As far as Aeralin's breaking the Rules of Behaviour -- its her posts -- its a public admittance as far as I can see -- apparrently she just doesn't get it -- these are after all MMORPGs --- now I'm not much of a roleplayer myself, more of a goal achiever than roleplayer, but I do enjoy the atmosphere at least -- but to me its obvious that 2 people can not roleplay the same character.

The situation that caused SM and my other ingame friend and another ingame aquantance that was a member of SMs guild to leave Ryzom ( lets see that there is 3 subs ), oh and should add another ingame friend that came back a month or 2 later and only stayed a week or so --  was well within the normal gameplay of Ryzom. I guess an example of how normal gameplay can cause hard feelings and even drive some from a game they have loved for years.

Did I react nicely to my allies that not only wouldn't help me defend my ally's OP but encouraged its being attacked while my ally's guild was still active even if SM had apparrently left Ryzom? Don't think so, I was terribly upset. Even managed to ward off the first declare with some friends helping and Kamis had to declare a second time and bring in more Kara friends to take the OP. Pretty proud of that. Normal gameplay, no problems as far as that goes. But if one thinks that is going to get my friendship, think they are mistaken. I've even tried to see if the Kara would be open to letting me help them at some OPs if they could use the firepower. I even think I could take down the 6 boxing setup, at least would have enjoyed trying. But I was never able to get anywhere with that, don't think the Kara like me much and I don't care for some of them either.

I've enjoyed Ryzom for years, I may end up leaving Ryzom soon myself and maybe that's why I am willing to make these posts. I've pretty much run out of content and would just have left the challenge of growing a guild and/or alliance and its pretty obvious that is not really my thing.

As for players leaving Ryzom, a lot are going to come and go for reasons similiar to what happened with SM and what is happening with all of this stuff around use of botting and sharing of characters, But the big problem is new content, Occupatoions were the big new content for a lot of us and to me it was pretty disappointing, maybe advanced occupations will deliver more but I haven't heard much about that. The Dev's seem to want to focus more on Events and Player involvement like the player run governments -- I wish them well with that but that isn't really what I personally care for much, I tried the events a bit but just not my thing and didn't seem to go well for a lot of others either.

Originally posted by Tuyet

The situation that caused SM and my other ingame friend and another ingame aquantance that was a member of SMs guild to leave Ryzom ( lets see that there is 3 subs ), oh and should add another ingame friend that came back a month or 2 later and only stayed a week or so --  was well within the normal gameplay of Ryzom. I guess an example of how normal gameplay can cause hard feelings and even drive some from a game they have loved for years.

Did I react nicely to my allies that not only wouldn't help me defend my ally's OP but encouraged its being attacked while my ally's guild was still active even if SM had apparrently left Ryzom? Don't think so, I was terribly upset. Even managed to ward off the first declare with some friends helping and Kamis had to declare a second time and bring in more Kara friends to take the OP. Pretty proud of that. Normal gameplay, no problems as far as that goes. But if one thinks that is going to get my friendship, think they are mistaken. I've even tried to see if the Kara would be open to letting me help them at some OPs if they could use the firepower. I even think I could take down the 6 boxing setup, at least would have enjoyed trying. But I was never able to get anywhere with that, don't think the Kara like me much and I don't care for some of them either.

As for players leaving Ryzom, a lot are going to come and go for reasons similiar to what happened with SM and what is happening with all of this stuff around use of botting and sharing of characters, But the big problem is new content, Occupatoions were the big new content for a lot of us and to me it was pretty disappointing, maybe advanced occupations will deliver more but I haven't heard much about that. The Dev's seem to want to focus more on Events and Player involvement like the player run governments -- I wish them well with that but that isn't really what I personally care for much, I tried the events a bit but just not my thing and didn't seem to go well for a lot of others either.

If anyone has had a problem with me, I've always welcomed them to bring it to me.  If the third person you speak of is the one I know to have returned and left, he has done so on his own.  He left IF of his own choice.  We've welcomed him back with open arms every time we've seen him.  Part of the reason he won't rejoin IF is that he is a Kara at heart and only joined HoT to follow SM originally.  He also won't rejoin because he values your friendship, and though his friendships with us are important to him, he would rather not slight you just to have a guild tag over his head.  He's also extremely busy irl.

IF didn't help defend HoT's OPs because we were completely brand new.  We wouldn't have helped anyone going to war at that point in time, ally or no.  We hadn't even decide whether we were going to be Kamis or neutrals yet.  IF was only a few days old, and to ask us to help defend any guild, much less the one we'd just left, was a stretch.

There is no new content because the devs aren't actively dev'ing the game anymore.  They are fixing bugs, fixing broken content and adding it in.  This seems like new content, when in reality its old content that was broken so not added.  At this point, the Devs have focused on Ryzom's Engine and fixing broken content so they can move on.  Ryzom is a finished project, just being completed now.  The Event Team is the only content really being introduced, and that is a set of volunteers who work to keep the server active and interesting. 

Impossible to quote everyone, but my answer will be very short.

x nationalcity:

You have to consider the close relationship established over the years in a small community. Relationship problems happens in every MMO, sure they should not be debated in a public forum, but this just show how passionate are the ryzom players.

Personally I never had any specific problems with all the other ryzom players. Sure there are many (expecially from the opposing faction) that i almost had very little chat if not at all, but I think it's not a problem. At the same time I had good relations even with people of the opposing faction.

In a game started without factions at all, of course some relations remained even if the gameplay decisions divided the path.

My pvp actions never involved specific players or anything personal. I never hated anyone and my ignore list is empty.

My answers in this topic were deserved, because misinformation is the worst thing, worse than trolling (easy to discover).

About the story around SM, I can't and I don't want to judge something external my game experience. ANyway, better if you debate this privately.

Also I want to tell that my answers were directed solely to the quoted people.

For instance, I found most of you all speaking in a (almost)  good manner explaining your opinions.

Sure I didn't had relations with Glaz, as he said (unfortunaltely for him, he is kami.... :D ), but I think factions actually are the less important thing. We all, in our way, love the game and I'm sure we all agree that ryzom need to restore a fair play and have the devs reacting faster to infringments. It will be more fun for everyone, kami, karavan and neutrals.

But don't misunderstand me: I don't want anyone banned. Also, the example about "owner of a single account" is a bit forced. You have to understand that some paragraph are "formal" rules a company must have, not because they really want it, but it's needed for any legal controversy. Of course no one would complain if someone use the husband's or son's account!!

Same for PL, it's legal as long as you play the game. Personally I spent much more time than 2 months to master PR, anyway I think different from majority of people: the slower you play, the more time you will have fun in a MMO (the longer it will last).

Last thing (i know, this "short" answer is not really "short"): the event team is doing an awesome job.

But I agree a MMO cannot rely only on events, even a MMO rp oriented.

Well didn't read all teh posts that's a ton of info ;p. I asked along time ago the GM's Policy on use of programs like Keyclone and such, Here is a copy of the sent email.

> Many know me in game as a multiboxer. Playing multiple toons. Many complain,
> gripe, and accuse me of botting, in universal, tells, ect. Which I find quite
> annoying, and bordering on harrassment.
>
> I'd like an official standing from the csrs on multiboxing.
>
> 1. nothing in the coc/eula about it.
>
> 2. nothing in the coc/eula about what is allowed/not allowed 3rd party wise. (as
> a matter of fact nothing at all about botting or automation, unless i'm blind, I
> just assumed it was still against the coc, you all might want to add it in to
> the eula, only thing that comes close is #14 but even then doesn't say anything
> about 3rd party software, that does NOT modify data from server to client, as
> well as doesn't modify the client in anyway)
> http://www.ryzom.com/en/mmorpg-rpg-mmo-policies.html
>
> I ninja'd the following from another games forums but works for my purpose.
>
> I will define multiboxing as such:
> Multiboxing is the art of playing multiple characters on multiple accounts
> simultaneously. Multiboxing is typically played via a single user interface
> (i.e. one keyboard) connected to multiple instances of the game (on one or more
> computers) and are controlled via actions available in the in-game /macro
> feature.
>
> Semantics issue #1:
>
> Is sending an identical signal to all client windows or switching between them
> to send commands botting?(note the player must still be there mashing the
> buttons)? In other words, what is the definition of botting as it applies to
> Ryzom?
>
> Semantics issue #2:
> Software, widely excepted on other mmorpgs such as World of Warcraft (examples:
> Keyclone, Octopus, etc) used to emulate a keyboard (aka sending whatever key you
> pressed on your main keyboard to multiple clients/pcs), is by nature, "3rd
> party". Is "3rd party software" synonymous with "bot" or "automation"? Are all
> types of "3rd party software" bannable?
>
> Likewise, hardware (such as keyboard with built in macro and rapid fire
> features), by nature, are "3rd party". What kinds (or uses) of 3rd party
> hardware are bannable?
>
>
> Semantics issue #3:
> Does multiboxing give a player an in-game advantage? Therefore, can multiboxing
> be considered an exploit?
>
> Semantics issue #4:
> Multiboxing can be considered by some as "against the spirit of the game" or, at
> least, "against the spirit of the game the way I want to play it". Is
> multiboxing against the "spirit of the game"?
>
> Semantics issue #5:
> Multiboxers provide any game with a significant amount of extra income, and
> that, and only that, is the reason why is it currently allowed. True/false?
>
>
> Thanks in Advance,
> Dustin
> ~Faile and company in Game~

i still have the response email

My reply was as followed

"Hi Dustin/Faile and company

Your definition of mutiboxing sounds correct to me and is "tolerated"
Other popular games also tolerate this activity http://www.wowwiki.com/Multiboxing

That said ..
1.Mutiboxing must not be used to cheat
2.Mutiboxing must not be used to harass others players in any way.
3.Mutiboxing or the configuration of, must not hack the client.
4.Mutiboxing must not be used to exploit any part or functionality of the game that would lead to 1 or 2 or 3

Multiboxing could be interpreted as a "playing style" and as such is a personal choice of the player, and the combination of players make up the "spirit of the game"

Botting could be described as "Any program or device that will make or take a action automatically without human presence"
unattended being the focus and this could involve any of the macro methods or programs you described, any admission or evidence of this activity will not be tolerated and any sanctions would cover all accounts associated with the player.

If another player witnesses or suspects another player of "botting" then they must report it in the normal way, there must be sufficient evidence supplied with the report for any sanctions to occur. ie screen shots of a chat screen with an admission that they use such and such a program or method while they go and have a shower or to the shops or similar such evidence etc is sufficient.

A CSR would need to make a determination on the player's actions and responses during any "suspect" game play activity and decide if it were are unusual in any way and take any appropriate action.

I hope this answers your query

Regards,

Mokoi
SGM Arispotle
Ryzom Support Team"

So if programs such as Keyclone weren't allowed, (which i would like to point out, in no way modify data from client to server, which is a violation of the TOS).

We shouldn't have been told they were allowed.

Now as to why they suddenly ban the use of Keyclone and like programs that still require manual play, I haven't the foggiest. Literally every MMORPG i've ever multiboxed, allowed and continues to allow programs such as keyclone. If you'd prefer to lose a bunch of income to pretty much banning your multiboxers I just lolz at you ;p.

As a player I did alot of multiboxing for personal reasons.

1. It's hard to find people, and/or enough  people to experience the end game content, so instead of waiting around all day alone, i worked and made it possible myself.

2. Solo'ing in Ryzom is horridly designed and multiboxing fixes this

3. I like the Challenge of running multiple toons, it's fun and it's fun to show it off

For years i used my multiboxing to help others. Solo (multiboxer) treking many people, helping them down bosses to not take any loot. Mass farming materials to donate to a friends craft leveling. 

I guess most of people's complaints came from pvp related issues with multi-boxing. Well as with any other games, multiboxed characters are easily handled if you know how to handle them. The character configurations have major flaws and rely heavily on one another to stay afloat so to say. If you take out the weaker parts of the multiboxers chain, they crumble.

I always found it entertaining that people focused on my strongest toons first, attempting to take down cosmose and Faile, as apposed to the much weaker other three.

There is another major thing people forget about multiboxers.

Sure the person may have five toons. But they put in 5 times the work. Leveling 5 toons, gearing five toons, takes quite a bit.

I keep seeing the misinterpretation that the use of third party software is against the TOS. No that is a complete misintrepretation. Or at least i hope it is. You do realise everything that isn't Ryzom is third party right? Windows, linux, MacOS all third party, Ventrillo, teamspeak, gamebooster, directx, Overclocking programs, all third party non ryzom developed programs that could improve your gameplay and give you and edge. If you could kindly explain how sending the 3 key to 5 different clients is botting. As you are literally pressing the button. No different then setting 5 keyboards right beside one another and  pressing all the buttons at once. I just don't understand how you can equate this to botting, which is automation, when no automation is involved, everything requires in game macros and your pressing a button, over and over and over.

Now what is illegal, against the Terms of service on all MMORPG's, is botting programs. Botting requires the toon and/or toons to be unattended. any program that allows you to go afk, take a shower, make some lunch and all the while have your toons grinding out levels/profs, is botting. Spamming buttons for hours, is not botting.

Programs such as keyclone, octopus and various other multiboxing software that send commands to all clients are in no way botting. You have to push the button. If you don't push the button the toon doesn't do anything. It doesn't matter if that button is set up to make one toon jump and another toon dance. You still have to press the button. Aka no automation-no botting. You are in also no way modifying the clients data, nor are you modifying data sent from client to server.

I haven't been playing much recently due to a massive hardware failure causing a lack of monetary funds to pay for all my toons. However i got back to a good spot financially to discover that Ryzom has pretty much banned me from game play due to my style of multiboxing play.

To be honest I think i should be afforded some sort of refund. To put so much time and money into many toons. To have them just block off my whole style of play some months later, when i was specifically told this style of play was accepted with Ryzom. They are losing a good dose of revenue and potential revenue by banning this style of gameplay as well.

As for people playing other peoples accounts and sharing info, well this is a common practice among friends, as long as they realize they are responsible for what happens on that account I don't see a problem. I've never shared my Ryzom accounts, however in other games, such as Aion, and WoW, I have shared my account info, so close friends and very trusted guildies could use my toons to craft gear or down a particularly tough mob when i wasn't around. As for family using the same account, well duh they're family, who gives a crap if a wife plays on a husbands account, or a kid plays there dads toon for a bit.

You've lost me as a player. Don't get me wrong. I love the game and most of the people. But Ryzom has made it so I wouldn't be able to effectively play 3 of my toons that i worked so hard to level up. Which to me is the same as deleteing my toons.

My 3 accounts are unsubbed. 

Never used any programs to control my other toons other than loading up two accounts up on one computer - the instructions how to do that are in the technical forum on the main website, and squishing the displays onto my tiny monitor (which was the reason I stopped).

I stopped my last subscription due to this thread and others like it.  I got tired of the politics.

Take care everyone.

Originally posted by Tuyet

How have I treated Aeralin after SM left -- I guess ignoring someone could be considered unfriendly but I basically do what I believe is reccommended if you don't get along with someone ingame -- play elsewhere as much as you can. As far as Aeralin's breaking the Rules of Behaviour -- its her posts -- its a public admittance as far as I can see -- apparrently she just doesn't get it -- these are after all MMORPGs --- now I'm not much of a roleplayer myself, more of a goal achiever than roleplayer, but I do enjoy the atmosphere at least -- but to me its obvious that 2 people can not roleplay the same character.

The situation that caused SM and my other ingame friend and another ingame aquantance that was a member of SMs guild to leave Ryzom ( lets see that there is 3 subs ), oh and should add another ingame friend that came back a month or 2 later and only stayed a week or so --  was well within the normal gameplay of Ryzom. I guess an example of how normal gameplay can cause hard feelings and even drive some from a game they have loved for years.

Did I react nicely to my allies that not only wouldn't help me defend my ally's OP but encouraged its being attacked while my ally's guild was still active even if SM had apparrently left Ryzom? Don't think so, I was terribly upset. Even managed to ward off the first declare with some friends helping and Kamis had to declare a second time and bring in more Kara friends to take the OP. Pretty proud of that. Normal gameplay, no problems as far as that goes. But if one thinks that is going to get my friendship, think they are mistaken. I've even tried to see if the Kara would be open to letting me help them at some OPs if they could use the firepower. I even think I could take down the 6 boxing setup, at least would have enjoyed trying. But I was never able to get anywhere with that, don't think the Kara like me much and I don't care for some of them either.

I've enjoyed Ryzom for years, I may end up leaving Ryzom soon myself and maybe that's why I am willing to make these posts. I've pretty much run out of content and would just have left the challenge of growing a guild and/or alliance and its pretty obvious that is not really my thing.

As for players leaving Ryzom, a lot are going to come and go for reasons similiar to what happened with SM and what is happening with all of this stuff around use of botting and sharing of characters, But the big problem is new content, Occupatoions were the big new content for a lot of us and to me it was pretty disappointing, maybe advanced occupations will deliver more but I haven't heard much about that. The Dev's seem to want to focus more on Events and Player involvement like the player run governments -- I wish them well with that but that isn't really what I personally care for much, I tried the events a bit but just not my thing and didn't seem to go well for a lot of others either.

 lol your the biggest botter and user of programs on the server, you bot dug for hours on end to level you crafting skills. your posts dont mean anything like jwenting you both set double standards, if fine for you both to run muntiple characters using third party programs but it isnt ok for others who can do it better then you.

Originally posted by Nazak

Well didn't read all teh posts that's a ton of info ;p. I asked along time ago the GM's Policy on use of programs like Keyclone and such, Here is a copy of the sent email.

 ...... cut ......

My answer is very simple.

My opinion is that such conversation you got with Mokoi should have been public.

I mean: Mokoi, given the sensitive question from you, should have opened a topic on the official forum to speak about the argument and clarify to everyone the rules and meaning of "multiboxing" and "botting".

For me, using keyclone is an "automation". Even if you need to press the buttons, it's still an automation. That is my opinion. And, as me, many other people think the same.

So, given the different opinions about what is botting and what is not, the game owners, once they knew about your question, should have understood how sensitive is the argument.

And they should have written clear statements about it.

As i wrote in my previous posts, I don't want anyone banned. I just want, and sure most of other angry people, clear rules.

We already asked that in the past, if you go read the Boroshi's post about several questions, clearing the rules of engagement in Outpost battles and other questions.

Multiboxing, without any automation is, in my opinion, correct and perfectly legal, because you need to press buttons for each toon, as they were on different computers (and without specific hardware).

You have, obvioulsy, a different playstyle, and you consider your multiboxing with keyclone and macros an "art" of gaming.

I don't think so, but I can accept it as long as the game rules clearly allow it, with an official statement, so any player, before starting playing the game knows what it is and what it offers, and can decide if they want to subscribe or not. And can also decide to use your same playstyle or not.

Given the conversation between you and Mokoi, it's clear that the major fault was not from you but from Mokoi, leaving this argument private, not recognizing the importance of such questions.

That's it. Personally I hope you will be unbanned and the game owners make a clear statement on the public forum about this so sensitive argument. And, of course, that you adapt to whatever rule will be accepted (if you want ofc)

Once we have a clear statement, in one way or the other, I think many people will return.

EDIT:

last thing, I really don't understand all the WoW references.... I never played WoW and I never will. I never was interested in it. Why other MMO should consider the Rules of another competitor? I don't think other MMO do the same.

WoW is not the "bible" of MMO's... I started playing textual MMORPG (and graphical some year later) long before WoW. I don't care if WoW got 1 billion players, I care of the games I like to play and they must have their own rules. I suppose the owners of MMO should have the same care about their games.

Oh my accounts are not banned, but they essentially banned my style of gameplay.   Meaning I have no reason to resub now lol.

Automation, perhaps there's a language barrier, but to 90% of the mainstream MMORPG's search there forums.

Automation is a program or software playing the game for you while you are not present at the pc. Which is the defintion of botting.

At least to a majority of the world, personal definitions and intrepretations aside.

It looks to me like Swindt just made a decision that these programs were not allowed, rather then consulting the higher ups on there opinion. Though Ryzom doesn't clearly state who holds what level of power in the game, there is no posted heirarchy that I've found. However i haven't indeptly searched for one.

At this points it seems there is no clarity from the game owners on there perspective on multiboxing and multiboxing software, just from one gm saying don't do it, and one sgm saying it's ok.

But as i understand it. GM's are not employee's persay but volunteers? So really a few volunteers are now allowed to make vital decisions that drastically impact the game?

If you use aripostle as an example, a few months ago alts, ran with multiboxing programs, made up nearly a 1/4th of the active population. By active I mean logging on more then once a week, or sitting afk all day at stables.

The rules are very unclear in terms to multiboxing. With no clear and concise definition, one is forced to take the interpretation of other mmorpg's to use as a basis for comparison. Sense all those types of technology are allowed on the bigger named games, WoW, Eve, EQ, Ect, one comes to the conclusion that they are allowed in Ryzom. And with conflicting answers from GM's, who's to say what is really allowed and not allowed?

Originally posted by Nazak

Automation, perhaps there's a language barrier, but to 90% of the mainstream MMORPG's search there forums.

At least to a majority of the world, personal definitions and intrepretations aside.

 

Glad to read you were not banned. I hope you can find your way to enjoy Ryzom even with different rules.

But I want to clarify my opinion:

Speaking as a game owner, you cannot rely on someone else rules. You cannot ask to your customers to be well informed about other games rules.

Personally, till now, I never knew WoW allowed Keyclone, for example. Just because I don't care to read anything about a game I don't play. In the MMOs I played no 3rd party software was allowed, keyclone included. But this is not the main part of the discussion.

I can accept keyclone if this is allowed by the rules. The real point is "what are the rules", if they are considered ambigous or clarifications are taken privately? The game's owner MUST write clear rules, regardless of any other game around, because I, a customer, cannot have the knowledge of everything on the market. Even if I know WoW by name.... do you think I cared to read it's CoC or EULA or any other thing related to the game rules or their forums? Of course I never did.

I'm surprised to read that to play a game i need to know the MMO history and all the other games around.

Of course, by the game's owner perspective, this cannot be accepted. If they want to rely to common terms or common behaviour, they must specify them, and the context used, in their own rules. Or do you think it's possible in a service agreement to write something like "for this question, go read WoW's CoC"???? Of course it would be ridicule.

I have a game, these are the rules, enjoy playing it. That's it.

For instance, I didn't unsubbed in december because of this debate. I unsubbed for personal rl issues, but when I decided to come back at beginning of february, I jumped into these topics, here and other forums. So, I decided to wait, because I want to play Ryzom, but I want clear rules for everyone.

So, the point is the Ryzom's owner (not gm's or volunteers, that are not guilty, in absence of directions from the owner) must tell the whole community, publicly, what is allowed and what's not. They must update the CoC and write into the official "externally accessible" forum. Writing anything into the ingame forum has no sense at all.

I understand your point. I'm just meaning, when definitions, rules, instructions are unclear, you go to something similar to seek out a resolution. Like if something is wrong with your Ford truck you will use your experience, working on your chevy truck. They are both trucks but what may work on one might not work for another. But if nothing is there to tell you it wont work, you'll just use what you know, because that's the best you can do.

Though in my case i specifically asked gm's if this form of play was allowed. They said yes. So not only did I use it, but I informed others on useage of the programs for multiboxing, from my days in many other games multiboxing possibly leading to some of the larger conflicts.

I personally helped many multiboxers set up multiple clients, get them running smoother, and directed them to multiboxing software and sites on how to effectively multi-box. Players from both factions, and many different guilds. Which I was informed both directly via email, and indirectly in game tells, was acceptable form of playstyle.

We were misinformed on the policy on keyclone and multiboxing software. For them to suddenly change there opinion is quite a bit unfair after taking our money for months, under the pretext it was accepted play style.

From my point of view it's like.

"Sure i'll take your money, oh your alts are starting to have in influence on the power of your faction, guild, social circle? Well sucks to be you, they are now banned."

Again this is how I as a paying customer feel. And the reason I will not resub.

One thing that multiboxers either didn't realize or most likely just didn't care about - your playstyle ruined fun of other players. While it may be ok to use in PvE, it drastically change things in PvP. Why many people gave up on OP battles? Because there was always TI's army of alts, and, considering low numbers of Karas, hence there was no chance to win. Even more, there was no fun. Battles stopped to be player contest, where both sides having fun, instead they turned out into constant whipefests.  And if there is no chance to win and even no chance to have fun, then why bother to attend. People had only two ways to go: either start using multiboxing as well (which not many can afford due to various reasons, from lack of funds to having no time to train alts), or just give up. So they gave up.

As for CSR's, perhaps they also had no idea, how multiboxing can affect the game. They been thinking something like "These guys want to use multiple accounts? Ok, nothing wrong about that, let them go". But when they saw that a couple of people ruining fun of many others, they changed their minds. Also it badly affects Ryzom publicity, which is already miserable. "- Does this game have PvP? - Yes, but in order to win you must have 6 healbots, otherwise you suck. - WTF?!.." They decided to sacrifice a bunch of mulitiboxer's accounts for the sake of the rest of the community. And i applaude them on this decision. I'm glad we got rid of multiboxers. And i hope they will never come back - neither themselves nor their swarm of alts.

Worst regards, Kimmerin.

The pr ganker debating fairness in pvp, you made me giggle, and I thank you ^.^.  Pvp in Ryzom has always been completely imballanced. The faction with the bigger numbers and or most high levels has always dominated. Sure there was the occasional ballanced fight, once in a blue moon, 5 years ago or so. But that isn't the fault of the players nor there playstyle, it's a fault of the games system. With no limitation on the number of people a side can have, the weaker side will surely lose to the stronger one. That being said there have always been a huge group of whiners in terms of pvp, world wide in every single game. IF multi boxers are ruining your pvp system, fix the damn system don't kick out the multiboxers. If one class/tree is really OP, do you remove the tree? NO you fix it.

The major arguement in all posts seems to be, multiboxers suck because they can bring more toons then we can. Well, that's not our fault. Get more friends, recruit more people, or hell whine to the GM's about ways to ballance Fights other then banning toons. Do you all realize how stupid the whole situation looks? Via the games design one group/faction got power, enhanced that power and used it against a much weaker oposing faction, so they were banned from that form of play after previously being allowed to play that way.  Going along that line of logic, if you were always winning Outposts, versus the multiboxers, then you would fully support them? If that's not Gm's interfering in player politics, i'm not sure what is.

PvP Multiboxing is difficult to set up, it takes lots of configuring, practicing, and difficult manuvering, not to mention how difficult it is to reposition toons. One screw up, one kink in the chain ruins all your toons effectiveness. It's not as easy as people might think, but if they have never tried it, they'd never know. That's why you end up seeing huge alt heal pods. Little movement required. So imo nerf healing, or force people to respawn at OP's. if your complaint is multiboxers are impossible to beat.

The major problem with Outpost battles seems to be a few thing. Healing (the side with a large number of good healers can usually prevale due to healing being a bit OP, One healer can completely restore a dead team of 50 people given a few minutes, and assuming they heal other healers first), AL/Launcher (do way too much damage if a few people are using them focus targeting people), Number's (It's a game that favors swarming, if you can, why wouldn't you?). There is nothing being done to help ballance pvp at all. No number caps on people allowed to attend fights, no stat boosts for the weaker faction. Only thing is the Guards which most of the time seems useless even at 250's, Untill the rounds get stacked really high, they should at least dynamically increase guard numbers based on ammount of players present.

The major thing i don't get is. You all sure loved it when we multiboxers helped you down bosses, farm the last 100 levels of a skill (god knows how many time I had all my toons out of team healing, dps, ect a plod team for hours on end, just to help out some people I wasn't even guilded with) , or trek you to a new zone. But you suddenly hate us when we beat you in pvp, very hypocritical. Also a bit sad that most of those same people are now preaching my downfall, but eh what can ya do.

I also don't comprehend why your all so antsy over outposts, ya'll constantly down talked us, and even harrassed our faction and expected us to leave your Op's alone? That's retarted ;). Not like it's hard to get anything they produce anyways. With the super low ammount of players there are cat's plugging up everyone's Gh's, alt gh's, packers apartments and more. Just gotta ask for them and you'll get more then you need, even from an oposing group most of the time.

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Originally posted by Nazak

The pr ganker debating fairness in pvp, you made me giggle, and I thank you ^.^.

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I don't give a crap to fairness in PvP. The only fair fight is the one you won. Ofc that doesn't include third party software being involved in process. Personally, im ok with aggro dragging, yelking packers and players, hiding between wandering npc's, killing afk people or killing noobs in the Ganklands with launcher and such. In my previous post I was pointing out the facts why one of the parts of Ryzom endgame content became useless for many people. If you are outnumbered by actual players, it's ok. It happened a lot in the past and afaik there were no complaints. But we were "outnumbered" by relatively small group of players that used tens of alts with help of automatisation software, prohibited by Ryzom ToS. No wonder, people felt a bit disappointed about this situation.
 

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Originally posted by Nazak

 

IF multi boxers are ruining your pvp system, fix the damn system don't kick out the multiboxers. If one class/tree is really OP, do you remove the tree? NO you fix it.

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Wake up, this is Ryzom. Asking for changes in PvP mechanics here is like asking for a glass of water in the middle of Sahara. I'm sure the devs are busy with much more important things, like modelling new cool-looking furniture, or repainting some icons, or something as important as that. Besides, it's not multiboxers ruining the system, it's software they have used in order to be effective in PvP.

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Originally posted by Nazak

The major arguement in all posts seems to be, multiboxers suck because they can bring more toons then we can.

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No. They suck because they use their toons all as one simultaneously via Keyclone program or whatever software they have been using. Thus gaining a massive advantage over those, who can't or don't want afford it.

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Originally posted by Nazak

 

after previously being allowed to play that way

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Aha, here we come to the funny part. All you have shown so far is a wall of text, pretending to be "a message" from CSR, positively responding to the question if keyclone-like software is allowed in Ryzom. I can spend about 5 minutes to write and post here another "message" from a CSR, telling me that such kind of software has been restricted to use since Ryzom relise. Screenshots? Links to the forum posts of CSR confirming such discussion has taken place? Any other proofs? What are those?.. You have to believe me, because i'm such a trustful person.

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Originally posted by Nazak

PvP Multiboxing is difficult to set up

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Oh yeah. Put a bunch of alts on follow and use a program to synchronize healing. Or put them all tightly in one spot and surround them with accurately built packer wall (that was restricted by CSR's years ago, but who cares, right?)

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Originally posted by Nazak

I also don't comprehend why your all so antsy over outposts, ya'll constantly down talked us, and even harrassed our faction and expected us to leave your Op's alone? That's retarted ;).

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It's not about outposts, it's about having fun. The Karavan faction on Arispotle is already small enough that 2 or 3 outposts can cover up the needs for cats and OP materials. It's ok to lose a battle to opponents outnumbering you. But it feels kinda lame to lose to people you can't even kill, because they have like 5 healbots on a leash, synchronously healing them with help of restricted software.

And, to prevent possible arguments about Keyclone-like software being legal in Ryzom: if you play say 4 characters at the same time and want them perform an action, you have manually press the key or mouseclick 4 times - one for each character you are playing with. But if you are using a program allowing you to press the key only one time, while program multiply signal and sending it to other characters - that's automatisation of gameplay, as you don't have to press buttons more than once, you don't even have to watch your characters, as you know that program will do the trick and all your toons will act simultaneously. Now, go find Gilga's post quoting the ToS and pay attention to red-colored string saying "to use any procedure to make it easier to obtain any instruction faster than through the ordinary course of play". Keysync programs definitely allow multiple characters obtain instructions from player faster, than it's supposed to be (manually via keyboard and mouse). That's prohibited by ToS.

That also means you was either blind while read The ToS, or you didn't bother with that, or you have read it, but still used keysync software on purpose.

Originally posted by Kimmerin

It's not about outposts, it's about having fun. The Karavan faction on Arispotle is already small enough that 2 or 3 outposts can cover up the needs for cats and OP materials. It's ok to lose a battle to opponents outnumbering you. But it feels kinda lame to lose to people you can't even kill, because they have like 5 healbots on a leash, synchronously healing them with help of restricted software.

Anyone who has really seen a multi-boxer fight would understand that it's just a matter of strategy to take them down.  In fact, multi-boxers fall harder than the average single player, as when 1 toon dies, the whole group follows suit.  Spamming bomb heals, whether multi-boxing or not, isn't enough to rez a toon in a timely enough manner to save the whole of the multi-boxer's team. 

The entirety of PvP became more challenging when the multi-boxers brought their alts, yes.   It made people think.  God forbid players be asked to think, come up with a strategy to win, and then implement it.  Wars have been won with smart use of strategy; like organizing healers, using ranged weapons to ward off casters in the other faction, a faction working together as a team to accomplish a goal.  All of these things happened, regardless of multi-boxing, and the Kamis won battles.  Bum rushing with melee when facing sheer numbers, not doing anything to fill the gap between the very high and the very low within faction, not using jewels made with the spells frequently used in PvP combat, not using spells that aren't commonly used; these are the things to blame for Karavan loss, not multi-boxers. 

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Originally posted by Leagolx
Ive recently started playing ryzom and im really liking it but is it likely to shut down pretty soon or is it doing pretty well?

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Ryzom was and is utter trash. Talk about "snore me to sleep combat", this game is like all the EQ clones wrapped into one with some utter shit graphics on top of it.

Stay well clear.

Originally posted by FreedomBlade

 

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Originally posted by Leagolx
Ive recently started playing ryzom and im really liking it but is it likely to shut down pretty soon or is it doing pretty well?

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Ryzom was and is utter trash. Talk about "snore me to sleep combat", this game is like all the EQ clones wrapped into one with some utter shit graphics on top of it.

Stay well clear.

and in rift its just bashing pixels and wasting your life as you said 5mins agon in a rift thread....dude why are you here then, in most mmos, you "bash pixels"..

and calling rysom an EQ clone just confirms you havent tried it, i dont like ryzom particularly, i can see its a good "gem", but its certainly NOT an EQ clone..lol.

edited some spelling.

Er...this thread sort of dispells the myth that smaller titles have smaller, more friendly communities.  While the botting issue seems to be a topic worth of discussion, all the back and forth drama sort of masks the issues (learn to edit posts people, and don't quote en masse).

Regardless what the rules were, the Dev's have changed their position on it.  If it makes the game less fun for those who formerly engaged in the botting practice, then its time for them to find a new game. 

As to the folks who are leaving, regardless of how important people seem to think they are, just keep thinking about the effect of pulling your hand out of a pail of water....yeah, more likely than not it still will look like a pail of water.

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Originally posted by Aeralin

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Originally posted by Kimmerin

It's not about outposts, it's about having fun. The Karavan faction on Arispotle is already small enough that 2 or 3 outposts can cover up the needs for cats and OP materials. It's ok to lose a battle to opponents outnumbering you. But it feels kinda lame to lose to people you can't even kill, because they have like 5 healbots on a leash, synchronously healing them with help of restricted software.

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Anyone who has really seen a multi-boxer fight would understand that it's just a matter of strategy to take them down.  In fact, multi-boxers fall harder than the average single player, as when 1 toon dies, the whole group follows suit.  Spamming bomb heals, whether multi-boxing or not, isn't enough to rez a toon in a timely enough manner to save the whole of the multi-boxer's team. 

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Sure, that's why all healbots usually have been organised in tight group, cross-healing each other and mixed with a couple of single players, paying attention to dead healbots, if any of them ever got killed.

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Originally posted by Aeralin
The entirety of PvP became more challenging when the multi-boxers brought their alts, yes.   It made people think.  God forbid players be asked to think, come up with a strategy to win, and then implement it.  Wars have been won with smart use of strategy; like organizing healers, using ranged weapons to ward off casters in the other faction, a faction working together as a team to accomplish a goal.  All of these things happened, regardless of multi-boxing, and the Kamis won battles.  Bum rushing with melee when facing sheer numbers, not doing anything to fill the gap between the very high and the very low within faction, not using jewels made with the spells frequently used in PvP combat, not using spells that aren't commonly used; these are the things to blame for Karavan loss, not multi-boxers. 

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Thank you! You just enlightened us all! Because we are just a bunch of noobs playing this game only for a week or so and having no clue about all tricky things like that. Thank you again, now we are gonna really start to kick butts. Sure thing, PvP in this game has nothing to do with numbers of participants and nuking or healing with use of action syncing software.