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Star Trek Online Forum » Perpetual Studios Version Discussion » DoughtNut Ships, Killer Tribbles, 2D space travel, PE people are clowns. hehe

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44 posts found
  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

 
OP  11/12/07 7:35:44 AM#1

[Yes, PE actually said they were designing doughnut ships.]

It's time to admit it. Anyone who has been following Perpetual Entertainment, and their 3 year brainstorming of ideas for STO, and their classic failure of G&H, you cannot escape the conclusion that these people have no idea what they are doing.

For 3 years, they hang around the online community spreading ideas and taking gamer input, and confusing a lot of people in the process, and NOW when they FINALLY begin development the PE people seem to have entered some black hole, as they are GONE from any online involvement sans PR speak.

Daron Stinnett thinks STO should not be for Trek fans, but for MMORPG fans (either WoW fans or preteen dweebs). And by "killer MMO" Daron envisions a shoot-em-up designed for instant gratification. He things gamers actually will pay to play Legacy Online. And that is where STO is headed, with reports of a free-for-all killer server, and more battleship-oriented ships. And your ship won't have interiors.

And if PE thinks Trekkers will play beyond the one month free trial for a crap game, well they have not seen the ratings for Voyager and Enterprise, and the box office returns of Nemesis.

But Daron laments, there was no outcry over Elite Force or Bridge Commander being action-orietned, yes but those games were not MMOS! with massive budgets, incredible scale, unlimited potential, and non-linear gameplay.

Perpetual Entertainment should be renamed PERPETUAL SPIN.

 

REDRUM!!

  Everith

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 486

11/12/07 7:43:52 AM#2

If i don't get a ship interior i'm gonna walk into traffic... Yea bridge commander was action oriented... but YOU FELT part of the universe with the ship interior and the way the game worked... turn that into an MMO with NPC interaction and away teams and planets... YOU WIN...

Take away interiors. TRY to make WoWtrekEve and you will fail.

I'm a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE trek fan... even watched enterprise as horrible as it was. PLEASE don't make me walk into traffic by making a strak trek MMO the thing i've been waiting for since birth a horrible horrible mish mash of popculture games...

  User Deleted
11/12/07 8:46:19 AM#3

II've already made up my mind about ST: O, and especially where Daron Stinnett is concerned.

  Suricata

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/04
Posts: 89

Omnes ad unum

11/12/07 10:20:34 AM#4

 

To clarify Simeet, teh doughnut ship statement was by John Eaves who was commenting ona design of ship he'd made that had a hollow saucer trype shape, giving the saucer a manticore type look. The Killer Tribbles was a joke by the storyline lead, maybe it will be in the game, maybe it won't, but it sounds humerous and harmless to me. 2d space travel is old old old news and was altered almost a year ago, so its not really relevant now.

Yes, GnH failed, but for all intents and purposes, the game was complete, does this not show that PE are capable of atleast making an MMO? If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together. Yes, it sucks they didn't release GnH (atleast for the people that want to play it), but from what I can see teh community is split both ways about it been a positive and negative thing, I know I'm happy to not have another sub-par MMO on the shelves and you have to thank PE for making the decision that alot of companies fail to make.

The Trek fans comment has been mis-construded to huge proportions, its intent was to state that the game isn't been designed solely for Trek fans but for a more rounded audiance, I realy see this as a good thing, afterall, all the games thus far for Star Trek that have been aimed solely at trek fans have flopped really. Atleast making a game that is playable and fun and then creating the content around that, instead of the other way around seems like a good idea to me. I'd like to point out that coming to MMORPG.com and labeling all MMO players as Wow fans seems a little harsh as well, yes it was stated teh game would be aimed more towards MMO players, but it was never stated anywhere that the game was been aimed at WoW fans. Daron has also stated that he thought Legacy was a mess, so why do you think he would make an online version of it?

Ship interior wise, you keep spouting out that the game will have no ship interiors, you know full well this simply IS NOT the case, hubs 'will' have interiors, both the stations and the mobile ship hubs that players can be stationed at. Personal ships will have limited interiors, as in they will probably have the bridge, but for those wanting a Star Trek experiance with interiors, they will be there, so to say they won't be is just spreading falsehoods.

The game is not released, its not even in beta yet, so really, going around all the Trek forums and stating it is and stating the games content is one way when it isn't to make it look crap is just unproductive. Thus far we've only been told about a few of the combat systems in the game, but, we have not yet been told about the mission system or teh trade and exploration systems either, so at this time, it is impossable to state the game is truthly only combat oriantated.

Feel free to flame me, or send offensive PM's as occured last time I posted here, afterall, the last thread I posted in got closed after the mods had to delete 3 pages of insults in it, lol. You can accuse me of spin all you like as well, I'm just stating it as I see it, that been its too early to make concrete statements, more so when hte game isn't even in beta.

I know you are getting impatient Simeet, but making thread after thread about why STO and PE sucks will only drive the community away from the forums and will do much more damage than a developer not making a post for a few weeks. :-)

---- "Fate protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise" ----

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

 
OP  11/12/07 10:43:48 AM#5

 

Originally posted by Suricata

 

To clarify Simeet, teh doughnut ship statement was by John Eaves who was commenting ona design of ship he'd made that had a hollow saucer trype shape, giving the saucer a manticore type look. The Killer Tribbles was a joke by the storyline lead, maybe it will be in the game, maybe it won't, but it sounds humerous and harmless to me. 2d space travel is old old old news and was altered almost a year ago, so its not really relevant now.

Yes, GnH failed, but for all intents and purposes, the game was complete, does this not show that PE are capable of atleast making an MMO? If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together. Yes, it sucks they didn't release GnH (atleast for the people that want to play it), but from what I can see teh community is split both ways about it been a positive and negative thing, I know I'm happy to not have another sub-par MMO on the shelves and you have to thank PE for making the decision that alot of companies fail to make.

The Trek fans comment has been mis-construded to huge proportions, its intent was to state that the game isn't been designed solely for Trek fans but for a more rounded audiance, I realy see this as a good thing, afterall, all the games thus far for Star Trek that have been aimed solely at trek fans have flopped really. Atleast making a game that is playable and fun and then creating the content around that, instead of the other way around seems like a good idea to me. I'd like to point out that coming to MMORPG.com and labeling all MMO players as Wow fans seems a little harsh as well, yes it was stated teh game would be aimed more towards MMO players, but it was never stated anywhere that the game was been aimed at WoW fans. Daron has also stated that he thought Legacy was a mess, so why do you think he would make an online version of it?

Ship interior wise, you keep spouting out that the game will have no ship interiors, you know full well this simply IS NOT the case, hubs 'will' have interiors, both the stations and the mobile ship hubs that players can be stationed at. Personal ships will have limited interiors, as in they will probably have the bridge, but for those wanting a Star Trek experiance with interiors, they will be there, so to say they won't be is just spreading falsehoods.

The game is not released, its not even in beta yet, so really, going around all the Trek forums and stating it is and stating the games content is one way when it isn't to make it look crap is just unproductive. Thus far we've only been told about a few of the combat systems in the game, but, we have not yet been told about the mission system or teh trade and exploration systems either, so at this time, it is impossable to state the game is truthly only combat oriantated.

Feel free to flame me, or send offensive PM's as occured last time I posted here, afterall, the last thread I posted in got closed after the mods had to delete 3 pages of insults in it, lol. You can accuse me of spin all you like as well, I'm just stating it as I see it, that been its too early to make concrete statements, more so when hte game isn't even in beta.

I know you are getting impatient Simeet, but making thread after thread about why STO and PE sucks will only drive the community away from the forums and will do much more damage than a developer not making a post for a few weeks. :-)

  Thanks for your well-thought out post, suricata. But remember you and other STO-NET mods do not speak for PE. As far as I know, STO-NET is not involved with PE and for the last month PE has not even posted there.

 

It's not good that Gods and Heroes was content complete, because after YEARS of delay the completed game was not GOOD ENOUGH to even compete. How is that a good sign of PE's capability? Or management?

It's not a stretch, Daron has been very dismissive of the STO community. Nearly everyone has picked it up. Come one, Daron made a MISTAKE saying "not for Trekkers"? Why didn't he make MMORPG change it? Daron has roundly dismissed the interests of the community and as a former WoW developer and a self-admitted fan of it, Daron is aiming for the WoW audience.

Ship interiors wise, you are misleading. The latest direction answer about it, Daron said player ships will NOT have them. The most PE has given in on this issue is a PE spokesman speculating that you might see your avatar on the corner of your screen. How immersive!

And HUBs like space stations and capital ships are basically CITIES. They probably won't even feel like a spaceship.

True, the game is not in beta yet, but as someone like you has stated you are tired of half-@$Sed MMO games, then you should see the writing on the wall, Perpetual is releasing STO, just like G&H was, as a typical WoW-clone with a action-oriented grinding leveling system. It's because they are too lazy and incompetent to do it any other way.

If I am wrong, then why is PE been so SILENT the last MONTH?

 

REDRUM!!

  Hrica

Novice Member

Joined: 3/31/05
Posts: 1140

"Yesterday is history, Tomorrow a mystery, and today is a gift"

11/12/07 10:49:50 AM#6

I think they are playing WoW

  Stradden

Managing Editor

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 6729

11/12/07 10:57:43 AM#7

Originally posted by Coward92

 

Originally posted by Suricata

 

To clarify Simeet, teh doughnut ship statement was by John Eaves who was commenting ona design of ship he'd made that had a hollow saucer trype shape, giving the saucer a manticore type look. The Killer Tribbles was a joke by the storyline lead, maybe it will be in the game, maybe it won't, but it sounds humerous and harmless to me. 2d space travel is old old old news and was altered almost a year ago, so its not really relevant now.

Yes, GnH failed, but for all intents and purposes, the game was complete, does this not show that PE are capable of atleast making an MMO? If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together. Yes, it sucks they didn't release GnH (atleast for the people that want to play it), but from what I can see teh community is split both ways about it been a positive and negative thing, I know I'm happy to not have another sub-par MMO on the shelves and you have to thank PE for making the decision that alot of companies fail to make.

The Trek fans comment has been mis-construded to huge proportions, its intent was to state that the game isn't been designed solely for Trek fans but for a more rounded audiance, I realy see this as a good thing, afterall, all the games thus far for Star Trek that have been aimed solely at trek fans have flopped really. Atleast making a game that is playable and fun and then creating the content around that, instead of the other way around seems like a good idea to me. I'd like to point out that coming to MMORPG.com and labeling all MMO players as Wow fans seems a little harsh as well, yes it was stated teh game would be aimed more towards MMO players, but it was never stated anywhere that the game was been aimed at WoW fans. Daron has also stated that he thought Legacy was a mess, so why do you think he would make an online version of it?

Ship interior wise, you keep spouting out that the game will have no ship interiors, you know full well this simply IS NOT the case, hubs 'will' have interiors, both the stations and the mobile ship hubs that players can be stationed at. Personal ships will have limited interiors, as in they will probably have the bridge, but for those wanting a Star Trek experiance with interiors, they will be there, so to say they won't be is just spreading falsehoods.

The game is not released, its not even in beta yet, so really, going around all the Trek forums and stating it is and stating the games content is one way when it isn't to make it look crap is just unproductive. Thus far we've only been told about a few of the combat systems in the game, but, we have not yet been told about the mission system or teh trade and exploration systems either, so at this time, it is impossable to state the game is truthly only combat oriantated.

Feel free to flame me, or send offensive PM's as occured last time I posted here, afterall, the last thread I posted in got closed after the mods had to delete 3 pages of insults in it, lol. You can accuse me of spin all you like as well, I'm just stating it as I see it, that been its too early to make concrete statements, more so when hte game isn't even in beta.

I know you are getting impatient Simeet, but making thread after thread about why STO and PE sucks will only drive the community away from the forums and will do much more damage than a developer not making a post for a few weeks. :-)

  Thanks for your well-thought out post, suricata. But remember you and other STO-NET mods do not speak for PE. As far as I know, STO-NET is not involved with PE and for the last month PE has not even posted there.

 

It's not good that Gods and Heroes was content complete, because after YEARS of delay the completed game was not GOOD ENOUGH to even compete. How is that a good sign of PE's capability? Or management?

It's not a stretch, Daron has been very dismissive of the STO community. Nearly everyone has picked it up. Come one, Daron made a MISTAKE saying "not for Trekkers"? Why didn't he make MMORPG change it? Daron has roundly dismissed the interests of the community and as a former WoW developer and a self-admitted fan of it, Daron is aiming for the WoW audience.

Ship interiors wise, you are misleading. The latest direction answer about it, Daron said player ships will NOT have them. The most PE has given in on this issue is a PE spokesman speculating that you might see your avatar on the corner of your screen. How immersive!

And HUBs like space stations and capital ships are basically CITIES. They probably won't even feel like a spaceship.

True, the game is not in beta yet, but as someone like you has stated you are tired of half-@$Sed MMO games, then you should see the writing on the wall, Perpetual is releasing STO, just like G&H was, as a typical WoW-clone with a action-oriented grinding leveling system. It's because they are too lazy and incompetent to do it any other way.

If I am wrong, then why is PE been so SILENT the last MONTH?

Hi, I just want to step in here for a second.

First of all, your assertion that Darron should have "made MMORPG change it" wouldn't have worked anyway. While he misspoke, that doesn't mean that we would change the quote. What we WOULD do, however, is clarify the context, which I have done a number of times. He was saying that the game wasn't justf or trekkers. He was making the point that they were trying to go out of their way to make a GOOD MMO, and that they wouldn't coast on being a Star Trek IP. To be honest, if people want to say anything about that statement, I think it should be applauded. There's nothing worse than sailing on an IP with little consideration to the genre or to the gameplay.

Second, The doughnut ship thing, which has already been explained. You make it sound like someone proposed flying around in doughnuts with sprinkles on them... What was ACTUALLY said was what was mentioned above. A ship that has a "hollow" saucer section. You see, the fact that this is an MMO and isn't restricted in the same ways that the television series were, the designers (including a ship designer from the shows, I might add) have decided to make some different and unique-looking ships alongside moe familiar ones. The same goes for aliens. They can afford to make the aliens a little less like humans wiyth crinkly noses or foreheads.

Seriously, if you want to slag on ST:O and not like it, that's fine. I just wanted to bring some fact to this discussion.

I'm going to close by saying that I am a huge Star Trek fan, and that I have yet to make a decision as to whether or not Star Trek Online is going to be for me. The fact of the matter is that it's too early for anyone to be able to make an informed decision as there isn't actually a game yet. If PE does a bad job on ST:O, I won't play it. It's that simple.

 

Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com

  User Deleted
11/12/07 11:09:50 AM#8

Suricata wrote:

"Yes, GnH failed, but for all intents and purposes, the game was complete, does this not show that PE are capable of at least making an MMO?"

I was in G&H closed beta and the truth is that the game was not complete.

  • No Auction House system
  • No personal mounts
  • Continuous server side crashes
  • No server stability
  • Missing signature quest mobs
  • Unfinished quests with place holders
  • Broken minion AI behavior
  • Broken mobs
  • Blue and white void screens
  • Npc avatars, environmental and structural elements that would disappear leaving zones completely empty of everything but  the graphic skin covering the ground.


"If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together."

  • PE doesn't even have their own fully functioning web site for STO.
  • They don't have 3-D models of any of the game environment or models.
  • All PE has is concept art and a wire frame topographical map.

The canceling of G&H by PE only demonstrates that they were incapable of successfully completing a full featured and quality MMO. It is illogical to think that after the monumental failure of their G&H MMO that some how, perhaps magically, they'll be able to successful launch STO.

Simply put, PE did not demonstrate that they can build a successful MMO, quite to the contrary, they only proved that they can not successfully build a quality MMO.

Those that think that PE can prevail and successfully launch STO, are only in denial.

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

 
OP  11/12/07 12:12:48 PM#9

Thank Keogh, a refreshing post of sharp analysis.

I was in G&H closed beta and the truth is that the game was not complete.

  • No Auction House system
  • No personal mounts
  • Continuous server side crashes
  • No server stability
  • Missing signature quest mobs
  • Unfinished quests with place holders
  • Broken minion AI behavior
  • Broken mobs
  • Blue and white void screens
  • Npc avatars, environmental and structural elements that would disappear leaving zones completely empty of everything but  the graphic skin covering the ground.

 

  And this was considered "content complete" by PE, just bug issues needed. People should never forget the true failure of G&H, the embarassment to the PE people and to those who anxiously waited for its release.

 

"If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together."

 

That's funny, I thought that this was the state of STO right now. Their preview site has been up for nearly a year now, no in-game shots. PE has never sent e-mails to its subscribers, pretty pathetic. The last few months we have only see vague itnerviews, and some concept art.

And now PE has been SILENT for a month. Yet they promised they would be moving ahead and getting the community involved.

 

 

DEAR JON WOOD:

I also was really big on STO. It was my wildest dream to roam the halls of my spaceship, team up with friends to complete missions, and then explore space or the Holodeck. When the community began to get really skeptical in late 2006, I will stuck by PE and gave them the benefit of the doubt. No more now. PE has PROVEN that all they do is spin bad news, and they produce poor games.

As for doughnut ships, those were PE's words, not mine. They never produced any artwork for their idea, which seems to make little sense. They basically want to make the centers of saucers hollow or flat. The only benefit of such a starship design would be less ship interior space, which makes sense since PE is too stupid to put them in for player ships.

Killer tribbles were not mentioned just as a joke, but almost like a subtle hint. Seems like PE is excited about a stupid Mirror Universe free-for-all servers where they can allow all gamers to kill each other.

I had faith in PE in 2005 and 2006. But they have proven that the most shrill skeptics about them were RIGHT, they produce vaporware and have hyped up STO beyond belief. The apparent reality is STO is shaping up to be a big dissapointment except for those who enjoyed Star Trek: Legacy.

Call me out for sagging STO, but you see that is not what I am doing, I am upholding the great vision of STO that thousands were expecting at one time.

 

 


REDRUM!!

  Suricata

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/04
Posts: 89

Omnes ad unum

11/12/07 12:36:57 PM#10

Originally posted by Keogh

I was in G&H closed beta and the truth is that the game was not complete.

  • No Auction House system
  • No personal mounts
  • Continuous server side crashes
  • No server stability
  • Missing signature quest mobs
  • Unfinished quests with place holders
  • Broken minion AI behavior
  • Broken mobs
  • Blue and white void screens
  • Npc avatars, environmental and structural elements that would disappear leaving zones completely empty of everything but  the graphic skin covering the ground.


"If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together."

  • PE doesn't even have their own fully functioning web site for STO.
  • They don't have 3-D models of any of the game environment or models.
  • All PE has is concept art and a wire frame topographical map.

The canceling of G&H by PE only demonstrates that they were incapable of successfully completing a full featured and quality MMO. It is illogical to think that after the monumental failure of their G&H MMO that some how, perhaps magically, they'll be able to successful launch STO.

Simply put, PE did not demonstrate that they can build a successful MMO, quite to the contrary, they only proved that they can not successfully build a quality MMO.

Those that think that PE can prevail and successfully launch STO, are only in denial.


Okies, I'll address a few of those points mentioned. Yes, you are right, GnH wasn't fully fully complete, I was maybe a bit off syaing it was, but my point still stands, that alot of teh mechanics were there. Alot of the things you mentioned as missing are very typical in Beta tests, maybe it was worse than a few others, but my point still is, they got that far and since teh gaem didn't get released, we have no real benchmark to sya what Pe is capable of in a 'finished' and 'released' product. I'm not trying to be a PE fanboi, I'm just trying to balance the discussion with oppsong speculation, instead of just saying 'PE suck and STO is doomed!!'

PE doesn't have a fully functional site for STO yet, atelast not with forums anyhow, but then since they have not decided to start thier marketing campaign yet, then this really isn't an issue.

As for no 3d models existing and the game only been concept art, this is untrue, 3rd party sources, John Eaves for example, commented on the ingame models of the ships he'd designed, also in one of the devlogs, it was mentioned that the game looked pretty cool. Your staments instead should of been 'no pictures of current ingame environments or models yet public', because 3rd parties, such as those that have interveiwed PE have commented on seeing builds of the game, thus staing as fact that there is no build at all of the game is untrue.

I think GnH will be a subject people discuss for years to come and one people will always have thier own oppisate opinions on, for me, I'm happy that a games company decided not to release a game that wasn't going to be able to compete, yes, it can be seen that they have demonstrated they can't release a game, but for me I see it as them demonstrating that they can see when a game won't make teh grade, which for me shows they know waht the mark actually is.

I'm not in denial, I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt, if STO sucks, then I'll be alongside the rest of you making my views known about why I feel it failed and what was wrong, but until I actually see the beta, and more importantly the released and finished game (afterall, using a beta to judge the final product can be misleading) then I don't want to speculate that the game is doomed.

To me it just feels a little bit pointless saying how much a games company sucks and how much the game sucks on a forum about the game, afterall, if someones made thier mind up that they've given up on a game, why keep rubbing it in hte faces of those that are looking forward to teh game, its like going to the Vanguard forums and mocking all the people that play the game. besides, half the threads here now are all the same topic again and again, that been that PE sucks and STO will fail, all made by the same three people (Warrier, Coward and Oracle) who all funnily enough have the exact same post style as each other...... :-)

It would be nice for once for a topic here to not get trolled down into an anti-PE thread :-)

(Not all the post is directed at you Keogh, just making some generic statements in there too) :-)

---- "Fate protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise" ----

  Seloth

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/06
Posts: 388

11/12/07 12:45:08 PM#11

Originally posted by Suricata

Ship interior wise, you keep spouting out that the game will have no ship interiors, you know full well this simply IS NOT the case, hubs 'will' have interiors, both the stations and the mobile ship hubs that players can be stationed at. Personal ships will have limited interiors, as in they will probably have the bridge, but for those wanting a Star Trek experiance with interiors, they will be there, so to say they won't be is just spreading falsehoods.


Sir:

To date we have been told that there will be no PLAYER ship interiors. Hubs, flagships etc are cities. there is a difference to some of us. You say that there will be limited interiors? link to statement of this from a dev please.  Or are you spreading rumor and myth\ like others that you accuse of doing?

The last I saw was Darron talking about each player having a ship that they moved as a small armada to a planet to conduct a ground mission. He has explained that combat and space travel will be 3rd person to the ship. These statements are not in line with yours, nor for some of us make for a "Star Trek" experience.

Will Doctors still have no function aboard teh ship as was stated? this is another concern for a few of us.

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

 
OP  11/12/07 1:04:51 PM#12

Originally posted by Suricata

 

Originally posted by Keogh

I was in G&H closed beta and the truth is that the game was not complete.

  • No Auction House system
  • No personal mounts
  • Continuous server side crashes
  • No server stability
  • Missing signature quest mobs
  • Unfinished quests with place holders
  • Broken minion AI behavior
  • Broken mobs
  • Blue and white void screens
  • Npc avatars, environmental and structural elements that would disappear leaving zones completely empty of everything but  the graphic skin covering the ground.


"If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together."

  • PE doesn't even have their own fully functioning web site for STO.
  • They don't have 3-D models of any of the game environment or models.
  • All PE has is concept art and a wire frame topographical map.

The canceling of G&H by PE only demonstrates that they were incapable of successfully completing a full featured and quality MMO. It is illogical to think that after the monumental failure of their G&H MMO that some how, perhaps magically, they'll be able to successful launch STO.

Simply put, PE did not demonstrate that they can build a successful MMO, quite to the contrary, they only proved that they can not successfully build a quality MMO.

Those that think that PE can prevail and successfully launch STO, are only in denial.


Okies, I'll address a few of those points mentioned. Yes, you are right, GnH wasn't fully fully complete, I was maybe a bit off syaing it was, but my point still stands, that alot of teh mechanics were there. Alot of the things you mentioned as missing are very typical in Beta tests, maybe it was worse than a few others, but my point still is, they got that far and since teh gaem didn't get released, we have no real benchmark to sya what Pe is capable of in a 'finished' and 'released' product. I'm not trying to be a PE fanboi, I'm just trying to balance the discussion with oppsong speculation, instead of just saying 'PE suck and STO is doomed!!'

 

PE doesn't have a fully functional site for STO yet, atelast not with forums anyhow, but then since they have not decided to start thier marketing campaign yet, then this really isn't an issue.

As for no 3d models existing and the game only been concept art, this is untrue, 3rd party sources, John Eaves for example, commented on the ingame models of the ships he'd designed, also in one of the devlogs, it was mentioned that the game looked pretty cool. Your staments instead should of been 'no pictures of current ingame environments or models yet public', because 3rd parties, such as those that have interveiwed PE have commented on seeing builds of the game, thus staing as fact that there is no build at all of the game is untrue.

I think GnH will be a subject people discuss for years to come and one people will always have thier own oppisate opinions on, for me, I'm happy that a games company decided not to release a game that wasn't going to be able to compete, yes, it can be seen that they have demonstrated they can't release a game, but for me I see it as them demonstrating that they can see when a game won't make teh grade, which for me shows they know waht the mark actually is.

I'm not in denial, I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt, if STO sucks, then I'll be alongside the rest of you making my views known about why I feel it failed and what was wrong, but until I actually see the beta, and more importantly the released and finished game (afterall, using a beta to judge the final product can be misleading) then I don't want to speculate that the game is doomed.

To me it just feels a little bit pointless saying how much a games company sucks and how much the game sucks on a forum about the game, afterall, if someones made thier mind up that they've given up on a game, why keep rubbing it in hte faces of those that are looking forward to teh game, its like going to the Vanguard forums and mocking all the people that play the game. besides, half the threads here now are all the same topic again and again, that been that PE sucks and STO will fail, all made by the same three people (Warrier, Coward and Oracle) who all funnily enough have the exact same post style as each other...... :-)

It would be nice for once for a topic here to not get trolled down into an anti-PE thread :-)

(Not all the post is directed at you Keogh, just making some generic statements in there too) :-)

  Suricata, I hope you did not come down here again to try to get another thread locked, because it threatens the rosy image of PE?

 No, SOE comes out looking miles better than PE with regards to G&H. Come on, PE poured in a lot into G&H and for it to be such a lackluster result it is a serious blow to PE's credibility.

PEople are not just saying PE and STO sucks, we actually give reasons for it, instead of naive PE worship and STO hope.

 Answer this, why is PE so SILENT right now about STO?

 

REDRUM!!

  Suricata

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/04
Posts: 89

Omnes ad unum

11/12/07 1:12:55 PM#13

Until we see exactly how the ship hubs are, I just think its too early to right off the shipboard experiance. So far everyone that is very pro PSI has written off hubs as the 'Ironforge' of STO, I think that the hubs can offer 'everything' those that want a players hip experiance could want, all those except the people wanting to be the captain that is. The only thing i can see thats different between a ship hub and a player ship (fully crewed) is that one hada cpatain thats an NPC and one has one thats a human. For me, that means the experiance is only different for a very small moniority of the ships crew.

For me, I'm hoping there will be guild hub type ships to offer teh exact experiance that most people pro PSI's are looking for (hell, I am one of them surprisingly). The comment about a bridge view was made by daron in an interview after the one that first mentioned the lack of full PSI's.

I think the underlying problem here though is still the whole player ship interiors issue, i'm pretty sure that it PE said tehy'd give 'every' player a fully mapped out ship then alot of people would be praising PE afterall. The only reason I can se why Pe might not be for PSI is that in all fairness, giving 'every' player a fully mapped out ship, the size of a city, seems like a waste of resources really, afterall, not everyone wants to be scrubbing plasma ducts in their spare time in the hopes that 1 day 100 people will get behind them to scrub ducts whilst they play captain, thus why I beleive PSI should be mostly for guilds, since that seems like the only situation I can imagine a group of people succdesfully running a ship together.

So basically, until we know exactly how the ship hubs are in the game, we can't say how the shipboard experiance will be in the game, if you see where I'm coming from? :-)

I think a good way to look at the PSI issue is that even before that interview where it was mentioned, peopel were at each others throats over how much detail PSI's should have, some wanted just bridges, some the main rooms, some a few decks inclusing the main rooms (what I wanted), some even wanted fully mapped out ships to command. At the end of the day, this subject was bound to have upset people, sadly thats how it is when MMO's get developed though and in all fairness, what some people have been expecting from STO have included 'alot' of pipedreams which wouldn't really work in an MMO environment :-)

 PE is silent because they are going thoguh some major restructuring as STO goes into full production, Binky is accustomising himself to STO too (remember, he was working with GnH, not STO). I'm sure once PE has got thier new game plan sorted out they'll communicate with us, afterall, theres no need for them to give us a load of information that may be susceptablke to change, more so when they may be applying lessons learnt from GnH to STO as well.

I'm not here to troll either, to the best of my knowledge this forum was a place to discuss STO and I fail to see why some people feel I should not be allowed to post here.

For infos sake, the last thread that got closed here had absolutly nothing to do with me, I addressed a part of the original post attacking another site, the reason it got closed was because of the insults flying around, you are aware afterall that the thread was 7 pages long when it got closed and ended at 3-4 pages after all the off-topic and troll posts had been removed (none of my posts were removed).

---- "Fate protects fools, little children and ships named Enterprise" ----

  njdevi66

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/05
Posts: 221

11/12/07 1:22:22 PM#14

Originally posted by Coward92

 

Originally posted by Suricata

 

Originally posted by Keogh

I was in G&H closed beta and the truth is that the game was not complete.

  • No Auction House system
  • No personal mounts
  • Continuous server side crashes
  • No server stability
  • Missing signature quest mobs
  • Unfinished quests with place holders
  • Broken minion AI behavior
  • Broken mobs
  • Blue and white void screens
  • Npc avatars, environmental and structural elements that would disappear leaving zones completely empty of everything but  the graphic skin covering the ground.


"If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together."

  • PE doesn't even have their own fully functioning web site for STO.
  • They don't have 3-D models of any of the game environment or models.
  • All PE has is concept art and a wire frame topographical map.

The canceling of G&H by PE only demonstrates that they were incapable of successfully completing a full featured and quality MMO. It is illogical to think that after the monumental failure of their G&H MMO that some how, perhaps magically, they'll be able to successful launch STO.

Simply put, PE did not demonstrate that they can build a successful MMO, quite to the contrary, they only proved that they can not successfully build a quality MMO.

Those that think that PE can prevail and successfully launch STO, are only in denial.


Okies, I'll address a few of those points mentioned. Yes, you are right, GnH wasn't fully fully complete, I was maybe a bit off syaing it was, but my point still stands, that alot of teh mechanics were there. Alot of the things you mentioned as missing are very typical in Beta tests, maybe it was worse than a few others, but my point still is, they got that far and since teh gaem didn't get released, we have no real benchmark to sya what Pe is capable of in a 'finished' and 'released' product. I'm not trying to be a PE fanboi, I'm just trying to balance the discussion with oppsong speculation, instead of just saying 'PE suck and STO is doomed!!'

 

PE doesn't have a fully functional site for STO yet, atelast not with forums anyhow, but then since they have not decided to start thier marketing campaign yet, then this really isn't an issue.

As for no 3d models existing and the game only been concept art, this is untrue, 3rd party sources, John Eaves for example, commented on the ingame models of the ships he'd designed, also in one of the devlogs, it was mentioned that the game looked pretty cool. Your staments instead should of been 'no pictures of current ingame environments or models yet public', because 3rd parties, such as those that have interveiwed PE have commented on seeing builds of the game, thus staing as fact that there is no build at all of the game is untrue.

I think GnH will be a subject people discuss for years to come and one people will always have thier own oppisate opinions on, for me, I'm happy that a games company decided not to release a game that wasn't going to be able to compete, yes, it can be seen that they have demonstrated they can't release a game, but for me I see it as them demonstrating that they can see when a game won't make teh grade, which for me shows they know waht the mark actually is.

I'm not in denial, I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt, if STO sucks, then I'll be alongside the rest of you making my views known about why I feel it failed and what was wrong, but until I actually see the beta, and more importantly the released and finished game (afterall, using a beta to judge the final product can be misleading) then I don't want to speculate that the game is doomed.

To me it just feels a little bit pointless saying how much a games company sucks and how much the game sucks on a forum about the game, afterall, if someones made thier mind up that they've given up on a game, why keep rubbing it in hte faces of those that are looking forward to teh game, its like going to the Vanguard forums and mocking all the people that play the game. besides, half the threads here now are all the same topic again and again, that been that PE sucks and STO will fail, all made by the same three people (Warrier, Coward and Oracle) who all funnily enough have the exact same post style as each other...... :-)

It would be nice for once for a topic here to not get trolled down into an anti-PE thread :-)

(Not all the post is directed at you Keogh, just making some generic statements in there too) :-)

  Suricata, I hope you did not come down here again to try to get another thread locked, because it threatens the rosy image of PE?

 

 No, SOE comes out looking miles better than PE with regards to G&H. Come on, PE poured in a lot into G&H and for it to be such a lackluster result it is a serious blow to PE's credibility.

PEople are not just saying PE and STO sucks, we actually give reasons for it, instead of naive PE worship and STO hope.

 Answer this, why is PE so SILENT right now about STO?

 

 

I have to disagree with you on that. PE is still a better company then SOE for that fact that they DIDN'T release a bad game just to make money off of people, unlike SOE who dont give a rats ass about the quality of their games and release garbage just to make a buck off of people.

That is the only respect i can and will give PE atm b/c they shut the game down before it was released b/c it wasn't a polished game. Other then that, both PE and SOE can sleep in the same bed for all i care.

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

 
OP  11/12/07 1:22:56 PM#15

Originally posted by Suricata

Until we see exactly how the ship hubs are, I just think its too early to right off the shipboard experiance. So far everyone that is very pro PSI has written off hubs as the 'Ironforge' of STO, I think that the hubs can offer 'everything' those that want a players hip experiance could want, all those except the people wanting to be the captain that is. The only thing i can see thats different between a ship hub and a player ship (fully crewed) is that one hada cpatain thats an NPC and one has one thats a human. For me, that means the experiance is only different for a very small moniority of the ships crew.

For me, I'm hoping there will be guild hub type ships to offer teh exact experiance that most people pro PSI's are looking for (hell, I am one of them surprisingly). The comment about a bridge view was made by daron in an interview after the one that first mentioned the lack of full PSI's.

I think the underlying problem here though is still the whole player ship interiors issue, i'm pretty sure that it PE said tehy'd give 'every' player a fully mapped out ship then alot of people would be praising PE afterall. The only reason I can se why Pe might not be for PSI is that in all fairness, giving 'every' player a fully mapped out ship, the size of a city, seems like a waste of resources really, afterall, not everyone wants to be scrubbing plasma ducts in their spare time in the hopes that 1 day 100 people will get behind them to scrub ducts whilst they play captain, thus why I beleive PSI should be mostly for guilds, since that seems like the only situation I can imagine a group of people succdesfully running a ship together.

So basically, until we know exactly how the ship hubs are in the game, we can't say how the shipboard experiance will be in the game, if you see where I'm coming from? :-)

I think a good way to look at the PSI issue is that even before that interview where it was mentioned, peopel were at each others throats over how much detail PSI's should have, some wanted just bridges, some the main rooms, some a few decks inclusing the main rooms (what I wanted), some even wanted fully mapped out ships to command. At the end of the day, this subject was bound to have upset people, sadly thats how it is when MMO's get developed though and in all fairness, what some people have been expecting from STO have included 'alot' of pipedreams which wouldn't really work in an MMO environment :-)

 

A very, very small number of people actually had pipedreams, and if they did most of those even admitted it was impossible. Nope, most people just wanted ship interiors for their Intrepid, Akira, or Defiant-size ships. And runabouts too.
And most did not demand full interiors, just bridge, key rooms, social areas, quarters, and shuttebay.

There is a HUGE difference between HUB ships and player ships. You need to rethink that, suricata. HUB ships are fixed on a certain course, back and forth. HUB ships will be commanded by a NPC crew, and HUB ships will like cities feature highly transient populations. Meaning people come and go.

Say an Akira-Class with interiors would feature any number of crew plus NPC. This ship would have a sense of ownership, meaning the crew DECIDES where to go, what to do, and how to do it. There are gameplay options for within the ship, space combat outside the ship, and missions on the ground. Plus the crew can socialize or train within the ship as well.

A HUB would be an OK place to pick up crew who need some ship exerience, but a HUB ship will be just as frustrating a place as typical MMO cities.

 

REDRUM!!

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

 
OP  11/12/07 1:39:29 PM#16

Originally posted by njdevi66

 

Originally posted by Coward92

 

Originally posted by Suricata

 

Originally posted by Keogh

I was in G&H closed beta and the truth is that the game was not complete.

  • No Auction House system
  • No personal mounts
  • Continuous server side crashes
  • No server stability
  • Missing signature quest mobs
  • Unfinished quests with place holders
  • Broken minion AI behavior
  • Broken mobs
  • Blue and white void screens
  • Npc avatars, environmental and structural elements that would disappear leaving zones completely empty of everything but  the graphic skin covering the ground.


"If they had no idea what they were doing, like some small studios that attempt MMO's, then they'd still be stuck at the concept stages where they'd just of had a chat channel and a game engine with some stock models, this isn't the case and as such shows they are capable of putting all the parts of an MMO together."

  • PE doesn't even have their own fully functioning web site for STO.
  • They don't have 3-D models of any of the game environment or models.
  • All PE has is concept art and a wire frame topographical map.

The canceling of G&H by PE only demonstrates that they were incapable of successfully completing a full featured and quality MMO. It is illogical to think that after the monumental failure of their G&H MMO that some how, perhaps magically, they'll be able to successful launch STO.

Simply put, PE did not demonstrate that they can build a successful MMO, quite to the contrary, they only proved that they can not successfully build a quality MMO.

Those that think that PE can prevail and successfully launch STO, are only in denial.


Okies, I'll address a few of those points mentioned. Yes, you are right, GnH wasn't fully fully complete, I was maybe a bit off syaing it was, but my point still stands, that alot of teh mechanics were there. Alot of the things you mentioned as missing are very typical in Beta tests, maybe it was worse than a few others, but my point still is, they got that far and since teh gaem didn't get released, we have no real benchmark to sya what Pe is capable of in a 'finished' and 'released' product. I'm not trying to be a PE fanboi, I'm just trying to balance the discussion with oppsong speculation, instead of just saying 'PE suck and STO is doomed!!'

 

PE doesn't have a fully functional site for STO yet, atelast not with forums anyhow, but then since they have not decided to start thier marketing campaign yet, then this really isn't an issue.

As for no 3d models existing and the game only been concept art, this is untrue, 3rd party sources, John Eaves for example, commented on the ingame models of the ships he'd designed, also in one of the devlogs, it was mentioned that the game looked pretty cool. Your staments instead should of been 'no pictures of current ingame environments or models yet public', because 3rd parties, such as those that have interveiwed PE have commented on seeing builds of the game, thus staing as fact that there is no build at all of the game is untrue.

I think GnH will be a subject people discuss for years to come and one people will always have thier own oppisate opinions on, for me, I'm happy that a games company decided not to release a game that wasn't going to be able to compete, yes, it can be seen that they have demonstrated they can't release a game, but for me I see it as them demonstrating that they can see when a game won't make teh grade, which for me shows they know waht the mark actually is.

I'm not in denial, I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt, if STO sucks, then I'll be alongside the rest of you making my views known about why I feel it failed and what was wrong, but until I actually see the beta, and more importantly the released and finished game (afterall, using a beta to judge the final product can be misleading) then I don't want to speculate that the game is doomed.

To me it just feels a little bit pointless saying how much a games company sucks and how much the game sucks on a forum about the game, afterall, if someones made thier mind up that they've given up on a game, why keep rubbing it in hte faces of those that are looking forward to teh game, its like going to the Vanguard forums and mocking all the people that play the game. besides, half the threads here now are all the same topic again and again, that been that PE sucks and STO will fail, all made by the same three people (Warrier, Coward and Oracle) who all funnily enough have the exact same post style as each other...... :-)

It would be nice for once for a topic here to not get trolled down into an anti-PE thread :-)

(Not all the post is directed at you Keogh, just making some generic statements in there too) :-)

  Suricata, I hope you did not come down here again to try to get another thread locked, because it threatens the rosy image of PE?

 

 No, SOE comes out looking miles better than PE with regards to G&H. Come on, PE poured in a lot into G&H and for it to be such a lackluster result it is a serious blow to PE's credibility.

PEople are not just saying PE and STO sucks, we actually give reasons for it, instead of naive PE worship and STO hope.

 Answer this, why is PE so SILENT right now about STO?

 

 

 

I have to disagree with you on that. PE is still a better company then SOE for that fact that they DIDN'T release a bad game just to make money off of people, unlike SOE who dont give a rats ass about the quality of their games and release garbage just to make a buck off of people.

That is the only respect i can and will give PE atm b/c they shut the game down before it was released b/c it wasn't a polished game. Other then that, both PE and SOE can sleep in the same bed for all i care.

 

  Actually PE shut down G&H because they RAN OUT OF MONEY.  The interview with the former Community Manager proves that.

 SOE dropped publishing duties for G&H on their own. PE was going ahead with PE, even pre-orders were taken. If PE could have fixed the horrible bugs, if they had the dough to fix them, G&H would have been shipped in early 2008.

G&H would have been shipped, with crashes fixed, but lackluster gameplay and frustrating content remaining.

It's hard to get the facts straight, with all the spin going around, but is clear that PE WANTED to get G&H, their self-proclaiming AAA title, OUT OF THE DOOR ASAP, but THEY RAN DRY. And no kidding, as the game was perpetually delayed.

IT's speaks volumes about PE's management, their quality control.

PE is relying on the strength of the IP of Star Trek alone, NONE of their ideas for STO make any sense beyond that. Capital ships as HUBs? Give me a break.

A real company with actual respect for the IP and its fans, would have quickly made space stations, starbases, and groundbases as HUBS, while leaving capital ships as GUILD ships, and putting in ship interiors for medium starships would have been a no-brainer.

But PE won't do any of those things, because they are all clowns. ALL OF EM. muahaa

 

REDRUM!!

  GrumpyMel

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/07
Posts: 30

11/12/07 1:52:43 PM#17

Guys, I once again re-iterate. What makes you assume that PE "decided" anything about releasing G&H?

There is nothing to indicate they had any more of a "decision" to make then when you and I "decide" we must obey the laws of gravity.

When a project gets to the phase they were at with G&H and a company just decides to shelve it on it's own..... you're going to have investors screaming lawsuit.

Investors don't make a dime of thier money back until a product releases and starts pulling in revenue. There is no way those sort of people fork over cash if the developer gets to yank the plug at the last minute when they feel like it. Contracts like that just don't get signed. That's not how business works.

I don't have any insider info, but the only way what happaned makes any sense is if PE's investors for G&H bailed on them before the final round of funding... and PE spent itself dry trying to find alternate funding and failed to secure it. They didn't have enough cash reserve to pay for Production costs.... so they had to shelve the project and can most of the staff that was assigned to it.

Try to spin it any way you like, but there is no way what happaned with G&H comes out looking good for PE. Companies don't just decide to shelve projects out of concern for gamers pocket books.  If they do, they end up in front of judges trying to explain why they took investors money, and didn't deliver anything in return. That's reality.

  Dracus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/04
Posts: 1451

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."
- Brian Littrell

11/12/07 2:04:58 PM#18

Well put GrumpyMel.

And with such a spin of Reputation was the reason for the cancellation is a creditability issue.  As for the blackout mode of PE, I'll go with that previous information is being changed and is no longer applicable.  Changes are in the works and PE wants to avoid further big debates.

PE had the chance to clarify itself with PSI's, but choose to make an official statement that no further discussion will be made by them with that topic.  There will be no PSI's; the past indicators hinted at it, the budget won't allow for it and the time of production won't allow for it.

And having PSI's does not imply scrubbing the galley.  Those are two different aspects.  There can be PSI's without the "details of a boring life simulator."  Senior officers are not tasked with such duties to begin with.

And that is why...

Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

 
OP  11/12/07 2:35:15 PM#19

Agreed. 100%. And that is why Perpetual is INDEED run by a bunch of clowns, hoping to cash in on the WoW craze. And they will take down Star Trek Online with them, sadly.

After 3 years of community involvement, sharing ideas, blogging on STO-NET, taking fan input, moderating debates, when STO FINALLY begin development for real, PE IGNORES them?

WTF?

Methinks STO will just be another lame, buggy game rushed to release to cash in on a movie release.

Man, capitalism needs to be replaced by qualitism.

Sorry Captain, Federation Cut-backs!

USS KrispyKreme

REDRUM!!

  barthburger

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 65

Nothing seperates humanity quite like religion

11/12/07 3:42:08 PM#20

   In regards to having or not having ship interiors why is this so confusing to what people are asking for?

Reading in this thread alone there are people discussing  personal ship interiors. I would be one of them, but the dialogue is going like this:

We have been told ships are mounts and have no ship interiors.

(What other people hear: What do you mean? the player hub's have interiors whats the problem?)

Is the difference in these two concepts that complicated? 

      Sometimes while playing SWG I am in my multi person ship orbiting around Naboo or some other planet and enjoying the view from the inside of the ship I can't help but feel bad. I'm a Trek fan way more than a starwars fan. Pretty bad if I have to get my ship fix from an old starwars game.

   I want to be able to set a course from my bridge and live with the consequences to what happens next. Not play legacy again with a subscription. 

  I want to see things spark and explode in battle, I want to see crewman doing their things and making comments on situations. In Star Trek no one person is an island unto themselves in any ship save a shuttle.

   They way some people are putting it if you want your interior fix just go hang out in a HUB. Cool I can see all the interior design denied me on my own personal ship. Then what? get a "quest" then back on my horse, err outside of my ship.

   As for Bridge Commander I loved that game. But for me at least as soon as I played online you no longer had access to your bridge or crew and you were 3rd person. That got boring real fast it removed for me at least what made it star trek. 

  It just boggles the mind of the consumer when there are soo many bad games for Star Trek and a few good ones. When legacy did so poorly how can any thing from that concept seem like a good idea? If it could'nt keep peoples interest for the month how is it supposed to keep interest for years?

   As for PE as a whole I won't diss on them. I have my reservations and shake my head at the things Daren has said but I'm sure they didn't like haveing to cancel GnH.

    For STO I would really like to see some ingame items though. With all negative speculation that comes from the canceling though they really ought to release some in game,,,anything  and work on their site. It really would go along way.

   (ending long winded rant)

   

Fun,Community,Graphics,immersion. Is that so hard?

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