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Star Trek Online Forum » Perpetual Studios Version Discussion » Gods & Heroes Community Manager Interview on the cancellation

20 posts found
  Chiko

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/05
Posts: 2

 
OP  11/07/07 7:57:00 PM#1

I am sure most of you know about Gods & Heroes being canceled because the company wanted to focus on Star Trek Online.  Well if you cared at all about Gods & Heroes, here is an interview with the associate community manager for the game.  enjoy.

 

http://www.lgrnexus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=1

chiko Xfire Miniprofile
  Dracus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/04
Posts: 1451

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."
- Brian Littrell

11/07/07 8:44:33 PM#2

Thanks for the article.

And so the dirt is getting out there to the public, expect more to come out in time.

Reputation... rriigghhtt.

And that is why...

Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  TheFonzV2.0

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/07
Posts: 206

Bollocks!

11/07/07 9:55:22 PM#3
Originally posted by Chiko

I am sure most of you know about Gods & Heroes being canceled because the company wanted to focus on Star Trek Online.  Well if you cared at all about Gods & Heroes, here is an interview with the associate community manager for the game.  enjoy.

 

http://www.lgrnexus.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=1

So they rather can a game that was pretty much complete other than some bug fixes and polishing and they move over to a half made piece of crap that is STO?

Bollocks!

  User Deleted
11/07/07 11:00:27 PM#4

 

More spin and, surprise, glaring contradictions.

How close was the game to being done?

Content wise the game was 100% complete. As in we had all the features and game play content implemented that we intended to ship with. What was left was bug squashing and polishing.

Why was the plug pulled?
 
Budget, plain and simple. MMO games are huge investments and for a new company to take on two of them at once is a pretty big undertaking. I think at the end, we had a pretty awesome game however we couldn’t implement the features and content that the game needed to be competitive in the market because of budget and time constraints.

Game was feature and gameplay complete, but they cancelled because they couldn't put in features and content.

These guys need to just disappear.

  fatalimpact

Novice Member

Joined: 8/05/03
Posts: 32

11/07/07 11:07:32 PM#5

Just because they had all the features and content they were planning on shipping with, doesnt mean they had what they needed to be competitive.  To alot of people this game would have been nothing more than something to hold them over until the bigger games hit the shelves.

  Toadmonkey

Novice Member

Joined: 4/16/06
Posts: 249

Acquisition rule # 40 She can touch your lobes, but never your Latinum.

11/08/07 12:33:58 AM#6

It has been a while since I poked my head in.........  not good.  >.>

With all the other eye-candy  MMOs out there,  I am passing on Perpetual.   I don't think they are the correct company to get the job done RIGHT.

Can't believe I said that.   I so wanted to play STO.

PS:  Now I will return for comic relief

 

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

11/08/07 5:04:11 AM#7

It was just bad conditions all around and I’m sure if Perpetual had the money they would hire us all back up and make Gods & Heroes the game it deserves to be.

 

This after 5 years of development, and some people still defend PE and are confident STO will be great. It seems Paramount/CBS will license the Trek IP to anyone with two nickels to rub together.

It's plain as day that Perpetual is a totally green company, very young and inexperienced, with very limited resources. Why anyone has confidence in them is beyond me.

There is no excuse for Gods and Heroes failing like that, except incompetence. PE was not pushing the genre with it, it was a standard MMORPG.

PE cannot make it.

REDRUM!!

  Wickersham

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/19/06
Posts: 2359

11/08/07 5:34:30 AM#8

It didn't seem like a great game anyway.  Aside from that, a new company should focus on one thing at a time, and since star trek comes with a massive fanbase that should be the game to focus on.

What I read from that is that if PE released gods and heroes as it was it would have done poorly which would of reflected poorly on a company also making STO.

Just a guess here - they probably tanked that game because they wanted to double thier efforts to release STO when the new star trek movie comes out.

"The liberties and resulting economic prosperity that YOU take for granted were granted by those "dead guys"

  mackdawg19

Tipster

Joined: 5/28/07
Posts: 868

"If men were created equal, then what happened to game developers?"

11/08/07 5:46:25 AM#9

Originally posted by Coward92

It was just bad conditions all around and I’m sure if Perpetual had the money they would hire us all back up and make Gods & Heroes the game it deserves to be.

 

This after 5 years of development, and some people still defend PE and are confident STO will be great. It seems Paramount/CBS will license the Trek IP to anyone with two nickels to rub together.

It's plain as day that Perpetual is a totally green company, very young and inexperienced, with very limited resources. Why anyone has confidence in them is beyond me.

There is no excuse for Gods and Heroes failing like that, except incompetence. PE was not pushing the genre with it, it was a standard MMORPG.

PE cannot make it.


People defend them because as he stated, they havent produced anything publically that could showcase them. I understand you frustration for what happened with GnH. But think of it like this. WOuld you of been happy if they delivered a POS game? Would you not be on there boards complaining about why they released such a half ass game? All defending put aside, any intelligent person would want a full product thats great, rather than a half ass product thats not. The way they went about business was wrong of course. But in the end what they did helped the community. It saved thousands of people from paying 50 bucks plus subscription costs for a game that had alot of bug problems.

GnH was your standerd MMORPG. But it had alot of good qualitys about the game that almost no mmo's have. Its quest advancement system was one of a kind. Allowing you to complete quests without turning them in and moving to the next step. There combat was also nice. To have mobs that actually react instead of standing there doing completely nothing was a nice feature. Of course it had its flaws, but with money and more time im sure the devs would of made that game great. PE was pushing a genre. I bet you can only count one maybe 2 dedicated MMO's that fall into roman mythology and greek mythology that are online.

People retain confidence in them because people give others second chances. Will PE deliver some amazing STO game? Who knows and only time can tell. But in no way am I going to down a company because they were smart. As stated atleast they knew what they had, and that it wouldnt make it. If only more game companys would have the same thought process they have. Then we wouldnt be getting spoon feed horrible games, just for money. Only thing that shocks me, is why they didnt sell the game to another company such as SOE. With what they had, it could of easily been fixed and ready to ship as a solid game with just a few more months and some cold hard cash. Who knows, maybe they sold it to bioware, and this is there secret MMO ( for you kotor fan bois!)

  Oculitus

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 204

11/08/07 6:16:18 AM#10

The interview struck me as a guy being asked questions while trying his best not to bash his former employers, as he wants a job at another game company some day. 

 

I mean the whole thing basically amounted to:

Q: "So is Perpetual Entertainment a bunch of frickin' idiots?"

A: "No, they're not idiots at all.  They're a group of really smart and competent people that just make a lot of really stupid decisions.  Well, not stupid decisions exactly, just you know...mistakes.  So they have to layoff a lot of the staff.  Like me.  But it's cool. Really. I don't mind."

 

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

11/08/07 6:21:51 AM#11

Originally posted by mackdawg19

 

Originally posted by Coward92

It was just bad conditions all around and I’m sure if Perpetual had the money they would hire us all back up and make Gods & Heroes the game it deserves to be.

 

This after 5 years of development, and some people still defend PE and are confident STO will be great. It seems Paramount/CBS will license the Trek IP to anyone with two nickels to rub together.

It's plain as day that Perpetual is a totally green company, very young and inexperienced, with very limited resources. Why anyone has confidence in them is beyond me.

There is no excuse for Gods and Heroes failing like that, except incompetence. PE was not pushing the genre with it, it was a standard MMORPG.

PE cannot make it.


People defend them because as he stated, they havent produced anything publically that could showcase them. I understand you frustration for what happened with GnH. But think of it like this. WOuld you of been happy if they delivered a POS game? Would you not be on there boards complaining about why they released such a half ass game? All defending put aside, any intelligent person would want a full product thats great, rather than a half ass product thats not. The way they went about business was wrong of course. But in the end what they did helped the community. It saved thousands of people from paying 50 bucks plus subscription costs for a game that had alot of bug problems.

 

GnH was your standerd MMORPG. But it had alot of good qualitys about the game that almost no mmo's have. Its quest advancement system was one of a kind. Allowing you to complete quests without turning them in and moving to the next step. There combat was also nice. To have mobs that actually react instead of standing there doing completely nothing was a nice feature. Of course it had its flaws, but with money and more time im sure the devs would of made that game great. PE was pushing a genre. I bet you can only count one maybe 2 dedicated MMO's that fall into roman mythology and greek mythology that are online.

People retain confidence in them because people give others second chances. Will PE deliver some amazing STO game? Who knows and only time can tell. But in no way am I going to down a company because they were smart. As stated atleast they knew what they had, and that it wouldnt make it. If only more game companys would have the same thought process they have. Then we wouldnt be getting spoon feed horrible games, just for money. Only thing that shocks me, is why they didnt sell the game to another company such as SOE. With what they had, it could of easily been fixed and ready to ship as a solid game with just a few more months and some cold hard cash. Who knows, maybe they sold it to bioware, and this is there secret MMO ( for you kotor fan bois!)

 
PE was PREPARING to relesae G&H, but their investors bailed on it. Releasing it would have threatened PE's image as well.
How is that a GOOD thing?

PE was not being accurate when they described G&H as a AAA title.

It is naive to think now that PE will magically transform into a efficient and quality studio. STO looks like it be a standard MMORPG, but we will see.

PE is REALLY silent now, and that's not a good sign. Their silent is a loud symbol of their coninued incompetence.

REDRUM!!

  Graff

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/07
Posts: 95

11/08/07 7:00:08 AM#12

Coward/Warrior/Oracle makes a lot of assumptions and presents his opinions as fact without much evidence to back them up, all he has ever done on this site is trash PE and he's not going to see the light in anything they do or have done, so don't waste your breath. 

PE's silence is a great sign in my books, sure like everyone I would love to hear and see more but they've got a huge team working on the game as evidenced in the recent team photo and must obviously be making progress, I'd rather wait and see than be drip fed like we have the last few years only for the inevitable changes that come and the trollfests that causes because people don't understand development practices. That STO is now their single concern is a good thing, the failiure to release GnH will always be a weight around their neck but it can be overcome. 

 

 

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

11/08/07 7:27:06 AM#13

Originally posted by Graff

Coward/Warrior/Oracle makes a lot of assumptions and presents his opinions as fact without much evidence to back them up, all he has ever done on this site is trash PE and he's not going to see the light in anything they do or have done, so don't waste your breath. 

PE's silence is a great sign in my books, sure like everyone I would love to hear and see more but they've got a huge team working on the game as evidenced in the recent team photo and must obviously be making progress, I'd rather wait and see than be drip fed like we have the last few years only for the inevitable changes that come and the trollfests that causes because people don't understand development practices. That STO is now their single concern is a good thing, the failiure to release GnH will always be a weight around their neck but it can be overcome. 

 

 

  Nah, I just am saying PE  has been  PROVEN that the games they make are not very good, and that they hype their games above and beyond the true quality of their games. (Gods and Heroes was content complete, and the content was not good enough)

   They hyped up STO in 2005 and 2006, only to come down in honorable honesty that STO is going to be a standard MMORPG, meaning the dreams about STO breaking the mold and being something a bit new is now pretty much dead.

   No, I think PE can still come around, but I think it is highly likely that the game will look and feel like WoW/SWG/LOTRonline.

  Is that a bad thing? Yes and no. I guess for unsophisticated gamers it could be good enough, as long is it is not as buggy, unsatisifying as Legacy. But for gamers who want a immersive, non-linear, living and breathing Trek universe I guess now. For role players who want to be captain of their ship and during off time head to their luxurious quarters to relax or play Holomatches it is going to dissapoint.

It's up in the air, but Gods and Heroes was a serious problem it had with server stability, bugginess, content, gameplay, and fun factor. Can PE erase all these problems with STO? I don't know...THE SIGNS ARE THAT NEW INVESTORS WILL RUSH STO TO RELEASE IN TIME FOR THE MOVIE

 

REDRUM!!

  Abangyarudo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/01/07
Posts: 156

11/08/07 7:45:09 AM#14

Originally posted by Graff

Coward/Warrior/Oracle makes a lot of assumptions and presents his opinions as fact without much evidence to back them up, all he has ever done on this site is trash PE and he's not going to see the light in anything they do or have done, so don't waste your breath. 

PE's silence is a great sign in my books, sure like everyone I would love to hear and see more but they've got a huge team working on the game as evidenced in the recent team photo and must obviously be making progress, I'd rather wait and see than be drip fed like we have the last few years only for the inevitable changes that come and the trollfests that causes because people don't understand development practices. That STO is now their single concern is a good thing, the failiure to release GnH will always be a weight around their neck but it can be overcome. 

 

 


I know people in game development and PE's actions are not professional in the least. Yes games have long development cycles but do not spend all those years on artwork. Some say they can't show ingame engine footage which seems very doubtful I'd rather see screenshots in the game engine then the load of concept art they keep putting out. Concept art will not show how the final game will look due to how hardware affects the gaming environments so I just can't see the point of mindlessly sending out concept art without even 1 inengine screenshot or inengine game footage. STO is their single concern but thats not really a good thing if they can't make quality products. PE is bashed because they put themselves in the postion to be bashed not because of a few disgruntled members of this community.

 

Personally I've given up on STO becoming a good game there is nothing to show that they can make a good game. There is no measure in the sand we have to go by plus I know the interview today was to the contrary but most people I know in that industry say cancelling during preorders is rarely ever done. It comes across as they sent out the preorders and then were like damn we can't afford these server deals. Its a very sad state of affairs but if your saying that the user you mentioned does not have reason to bash PE your working on blind faith. The problem with working on blind faith is you'll usually be dissappointed 95% of the time in life.

PrinceDestiny Xfire Miniprofile
  JohnnyMotrin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/06
Posts: 441

We've got the streets suckers!!!

11/08/07 8:22:04 AM#15

Plain and simple, anyone who can pull the carpet from under their fans at the drop of a dime cannot be trusted. Furthermore, anyone who will back STO is just opening themselves for another huge disappointment.

You don't just drop a game that's near 100% complete in favor of a game that may be years away from complete. That doesn't make sense. There's a huge part of the truth that's been left out and because of that they no longer have my trust.

  Dracus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/04
Posts: 1451

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."
- Brian Littrell

11/08/07 3:37:46 PM#16

The article does provide some tidbits of info that contradicts the public spin.  That was the cancellation was based on Budget and not of Reputation.  Sure saving Reputation can be a reason, but it was not THE reason.

More info will become available for the public, I'm certain of.  PE should take proactive actions, or otherwise more of the inside info will leak out and tarnish PE even more.  Such as with this interview.

The for STO is of decent size, but not huge, nor will it grow.  The budget is tight and the work will be outsourced.

And to be released in about 18 months....

And that is why...

Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  GrumpyMel

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/07
Posts: 30

11/09/07 12:36:02 PM#17

Ok, no one really knows what happaned for sure except those on the inside of the story. But here is the way things typicaly work for startups like PE in the software industry.

Investment is typicaly for specific projects, not the company as a whole. There are typicaly contractual stipulations on what the money invested can be spent on (i.e. Investments that come in for company project A can not be spent to pay for resources for company project B). Investments usualy come in multiple rounds... it will be very rare that a company will get all the funding estimated to complete a project up front. For each round there are typicaly milestones/benchmarks that  need to be met before the next round of funding is secured. This allows investors to manage risk a little better. They don't need to throw all thier money down up front.... they can throw a little down, see if the company is meeting expectations and if not, either cut thier losses or negotiate for a bigger share of the pie or (very often) more control over the company/project to make sure it gets back on track.

The vast majority of all costs in producing something like an MMO are sunk up front during the development cycle. Once something like that gets into production costs are fairly minor. Of course, a healthy MMO will have a decent sized staff dedicated to ongoing development, bug fixes, improvments and customer support. However, if a project is cash strapped it can be released with a skelton crew to keep it afloat... and that costs very little overhead....everything else taken in going to pay back investors/debt for the money that has ALREADY BEEN SPENT on it.

That is why you see alot of projects get canned during Development and Pre-Development phases. However, projects that make it to the end of Development almost always get launched.... and almost all that are launched remain live in some form. It takes a monumentaly unpopular project to not earn enough to pay for skeleton life support.... and any money earned above that goes to pay back investors. It also takes monumentaly bad financial planning  (although it does happen) to get to the end of development and not have enough of a cash reserve left to get over the last hurdle of release when your project can start earning back at least a little money to repay investors (even if only a trickle).

Furthermore, unless a project was internaly financed (i.e. no extrenal investors put money into it)... it is pretty much unthinkable that a company would get through development and choose voluntarily not to release. Doing something like that would typicaly result in letters from the attornies for the projects investors that used all sorts of nasty phrases like  "breach of contract", "bad faith" and "fraud".

 

Now, as to what actualy happaned in the case of G&H, it's all conjecture. However, at least outwardly it would appear that funding for the G&H project came from external investors and that it was seperate from the STO project, hence the seperate staff's working on the project. It also would not be an unfair assumption to believe that prospects for G&H's profitability were so bleak that they lost funding for it somewhere late in development..... and spent themselves dry while trying to secure emergency funding to continue.... to the point where they litteraly could not afford to continue to pay staff for it.... and could not meet, the relatively minor, expenses required to get it into Production at least in some form. Again that is conjecture.... but it's educated conjecture...and if true it really, really does not bode well for the fate of other projects handled by that company.

 

P.S. Keeping a low profile is not always a bad strategy for a project that is in early development. Doing so right after you've had a nearly complete project that just tanked is not, however, a confidence builder.

 

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

11/09/07 1:15:47 PM#18

Originally posted by GrumpyMel

Ok, no one really knows what happaned for sure except those on the inside of the story. But here is the way things typicaly work for startups like PE in the software industry.

Investment is typicaly for specific projects, not the company as a whole. There are typicaly contractual stipulations on what the money invested can be spent on (i.e. Investments that come in for company project A can not be spent to pay for resources for company project B). Investments usualy come in multiple rounds... it will be very rare that a company will get all the funding estimated to complete a project up front. For each round there are typicaly milestones/benchmarks that  need to be met before the next round of funding is secured. This allows investors to manage risk a little better. They don't need to throw all thier money down up front.... they can throw a little down, see if the company is meeting expectations and if not, either cut thier losses or negotiate for a bigger share of the pie or (very often) more control over the company/project to make sure it gets back on track.

The vast majority of all costs in producing something like an MMO are sunk up front during the development cycle. Once something like that gets into production costs are fairly minor. Of course, a healthy MMO will have a decent sized staff dedicated to ongoing development, bug fixes, improvments and customer support. However, if a project is cash strapped it can be released with a skelton crew to keep it afloat... and that costs very little overhead....everything else taken in going to pay back investors/debt for the money that has ALREADY BEEN SPENT on it.

That is why you see alot of projects get canned during Development and Pre-Development phases. However, projects that make it to the end of Development almost always get launched.... and almost all that are launched remain live in some form. It takes a monumentaly unpopular project to not earn enough to pay for skeleton life support.... and any money earned above that goes to pay back investors. It also takes monumentaly bad financial planning  (although it does happen) to get to the end of development and not have enough of a cash reserve left to get over the last hurdle of release when your project can start earning back at least a little money to repay investors (even if only a trickle).

Furthermore, unless a project was internaly financed (i.e. no extrenal investors put money into it)... it is pretty much unthinkable that a company would get through development and choose voluntarily not to release. Doing something like that would typicaly result in letters from the attornies for the projects investors that used all sorts of nasty phrases like  "breach of contract", "bad faith" and "fraud".

 

Now, as to what actualy happaned in the case of G&H, it's all conjecture. However, at least outwardly it would appear that funding for the G&H project came from external investors and that it was seperate from the STO project, hence the seperate staff's working on the project. It also would not be an unfair assumption to believe that prospects for G&H's profitability were so bleak that they lost funding for it somewhere late in development..... and spent themselves dry while trying to secure emergency funding to continue.... to the point where they litteraly could not afford to continue to pay staff for it.... and could not meet, the relatively minor, expenses required to get it into Production at least in some form. Again that is conjecture.... but it's educated conjecture...and if true it really, really does not bode well for the fate of other projects handled by that company.

 

P.S. Keeping a low profile is not always a bad strategy for a project that is in early development. Doing so right after you've had a nearly complete project that just tanked is not, however, a confidence builder.

 

 I agree with your reasoning and your conclusions. It is obvious the cancellation of G&H was not a good thing, as some desperately sprout.

It seems there is nothing PE will not do to damage its own reputation. Adding to a long list, it month-long silence on the wake of G&H being cancelled is deplorable. They have not really said anything, except hand out prepackaged and well-worded PR statements to the press.

You really cannot blame PE for trying, as a newbie game company to do something unique. But they have proven they cannot handle the massive investment it takes to produce a leading MMO. Which begs the question, who thought it was a good idea to sell the IP for a Star Trek MMO to PE? It makes sense of PE to start out with projects like G&H, that are their own creation. But Star Trek has such a built-in fanbase, and mainstream appeal, that it attracts a lot of interest AND critcism.

It's a shame that PE seems to be now totally relying on the battered IP to sell a game. They have yet to prove anyone wrong on that charge.

 

REDRUM!!

  Xris375

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 1031

11/10/07 6:00:44 AM#19

This seems like a ruthless business to me. I guess it's not too bad if you can be rehired fast but still getting fired on an matter you could not influence must feel terrible. Especially if those that could influence the matter, is not fired.

---
And when we got more women on the team, it was like ‘No, no, no. We need puppies and horses in there.’ ”
John Smedley, SOE

  arvainis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/13/04
Posts: 552

11/10/07 8:03:11 PM#20
Originally posted by Xris375

 Especially if those that could influence the matter, is not fired.


EXACTLY!  I do not blame the investors for pulling out resulting in GnH getting cancelled I blame the poor leadership at PE which is still there.  Funny how the little guy who breaks his back gets canned but the pompous fools who ruin everything keep their jobs.  I am all for capitalism but the business mentality in this country needs to refocus. 

"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." ~ Ronald Reagan