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56 posts found
  User Deleted
10/16/07 5:55:44 PM#41

 

 

This is the perfect time for us all to pause and reflect upon these words of wisdom...

"Don't worry, there is plenty of time to cancel your subscription."
Daron Stinnett

  Brenelael

Guide

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 3953

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

 
OP  10/16/07 8:23:15 PM#42

 

Originally posted by Dracus

 

Originally posted by Jaklet

I've lost count of how many threads and posts have been deleted from this forum in recent weeks. Of course, I'm sure you'll say that's different, right?

Threads Deleted: 0

 

Posts Deleted: Few

And quite a bit of those posts that have been deleted or moderated in the last couple of weeks has been yours Jacklet.  And I see one of your posts in this thread has been moderated.

Actually I have seen at least two threads go *poof* but they deserved to as they were direct attacks on STOnet and their moderation which sadly is what this this thread is devolving into as well. The major difference here is this thread didn't start off as a trolling attack.

 

 

Edit: I also want to point out that my own opinion of the moderation at STOnet hasn't changed. I am however trying to get my point across over there so I'm giving them a chance at redemption. It has been an uphill battle so far but I feel I am making some headway. So to anyone that may be concerned I took a small sip of the "Kool-Aid" but spit it out when no one was looking. 

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}

  User Deleted
10/17/07 3:54:32 PM#43

To the OP,  I know its a bit late. I saw the thread when you first posted. I was gonna leave it be.  But anyways, my question is....  

Why should people have to go to those forums?    Its not like we are sitting on some un-charted, no name , hard to find board.

If the Dev's do not want to post here thats fine and all. I don't need a hyped up post from a developer every week. The way I see it,  If they are developing a game "they" should be looking at places other than there own boards that are often fueled by nothing but praise.  

I know I sure as hell would be visiting more than my own site to look at discussions at the begining of each day.  So i could get  more than a mainstream perspective on things.  Even If i did not post.   When it comes to the game after release, then I do agree with centralized forums.   If I am playing I will be posting where ever that is.

As far as making a change... are you kidding??  They already  know what they are and are not gonna do with the game.  As well as what they are/will not be flexable with in their design. If anything there won't be any worring about this untill alphas and betas more than likely.   So what difference at this point do you think it would make if people went over there?  

If the community would be biased towards any of the non-mainstream ideas or talk.  Then why should I give the effort to discuss something with them that they have already made their minds up on.  When I can do that right here with out the worry of constant moderation / deletion of threads.

I am sorry, I think I kinda rambled a bit here even for me.  Its kinda late and about time to be hitting the sack. 

I understand why you might be suggesting. But essentially your not really accomplishing anything since the games probably already got the core design already laid out at this stage. And what we say will not change any of the things that people might consider big points, but only smaller changes if any later on. when its basically to late.

  Dracus

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/04
Posts: 1451

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."
- Brian Littrell

10/17/07 4:57:26 PM#44

Originally posted by Brenelael

Actually I have seen at least two threads go *poof* but they deserved to as they were direct attacks on STOnet and their moderation which sadly is what this this thread is devolving into as well. The major difference here is this thread didn't start off as a trolling attack.

I stand corrected.

I have had one post axed, eh, but so far ok for me.

 

Though to Jaklet's surprise, profanity is accepted over there.

And that is why...

Conservatives' pessimism is conducive to their happiness in three ways. First, they are rarely surprised -- they are right more often than not about the course of events. Second, when they are wrong they are happy to be so. Third, because pessimistic conservatives put not their faith in princes -- government -- they accept that happiness is a function of fending for oneself. They believe that happiness is an activity -- it is inseparable from the pursuit of happiness.

  GrumpyMel

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/07
Posts: 30

10/22/07 10:13:42 AM#45

Vanguard is a prime example of what happens when you try to rely on fan sites as your sole means for communicating with the community. It seems like the same thing is happening with STO.

It may be important for a companies marketing department to quell any negativity about a game.... but it's FAR more important for the company as a whole  and developers in particular to get unvarnished feedback. They need to hear the good, the bad and the ugly.

Alot of it they may not agree with or end up using...but it's important for them to hear it. Trying to insulate themselves from that is recipie for big problems. They just aren't likely to get that kind of unvarnished feedback from most fansites...particlary ones where the Mod's tend to have heavy hands.

I saw that first hand with VG affiliate sites. I'd post an honest and respectfull critique of the game (about the same sort of tone that I'd use in this post) only to have it shunted off to a "Rants" section because it contained even the slightest hint of negativity.

  Shannia

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/05
Posts: 2125

"World of WarCraft is held alive solely by the mediocrity of competing products." RendRegen

10/25/07 3:32:25 PM#46

I agree with GrumpyMel.  You will be hard pressed to find truer words.  I posted on the StarTrek.com forums and the STO.net forums very early on.  It didn't take long for me to realize STO.net was a fanbois only site and I stopped going there for my STO information even though PE had long ago abandoned the StarTrek.com forums.  I don't blame the mods @ STO.net.  Everyone is going to want to be an alpha/beta tester for STO and you can bet that those in power over at STO.net will be in on the first batch of invites. 

It is unfortunately, but all these companies do love their fanbois.   The sad fact is, rabid fanbois won't tell a company what they need to hear to make a great game.  Not everything works and some stuff just plain sucks.  Fanbois and Mod police unfortunately do an effective job of drowning out those with legit issues.

 

Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."

  Da3d3lus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 7

10/25/07 4:29:15 PM#47

I don't know a whole lot about developing a big budget mmo game but im sure it cant be much different from developing just about anything else. You start with a concept (and maybe a mission statement) where you flesh out what you can do. Like a big mind bubble where you write down any idea that pops into your head.

Now over time as you start to develop your individual technologies you start to see what your limitations are going to be. It may be cool to stick rigidly to canon and have a command structure where there is one captain and all the peons do your work but honestly who is going to be paying $15 a month to be told what to do? So they decide to work around that problem so everyone can be captain. Then they start to look at ship interiors and realise that maybe its going to take them X amount of hours to code and do the art works and everything for. Now thats ok but to spend X amount of hours to do interiors they have to take Y amount of hours out of character diversity and factions. You have to remember that these guys have a budget and a timeline that is probably very strict. They would obviously be doing cost analysis on all aspects of the mmo to make sure that they were focusing there time and money on key aspects of the mmo and not pissing it away on making the most fantastic sound effects instead of a story line or quests.

Unfortunatly what is going to happen here is the hardcore gamers that want strict canon will whinge and scream for boycotts if they dont get there way, and alternatly the casual gamers are going to do exactly the same if the hardcore gamers get to captain the big ships while they get relegated to watching blinking lights in the engine room.

 

just a thought.....

 

btw long time reader first time poster 

  Shannia

Novice Member

Joined: 11/06/05
Posts: 2125

"World of WarCraft is held alive solely by the mediocrity of competing products." RendRegen

10/25/07 6:01:43 PM#48

Da3d, while you thinking has logic, this is a game that has been in the works now for over 3 years?  What do have to show for it?  Absolutely ZERO, because they trashed everything and started over to go for the WoW model.  They are so sure they know what they are doing they boldly said they are not making a game for Trekkies.  Seriously, why would any company intentionally upset fans of an established IP the size and depth of Star Trek?  In one small sentence, Daron alienated 10s of millions of potential customers intentionally or not.

Fear not fanbois, we are not trolls, let's take off your tin foil hat and learn what VAPORWARE is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."

  User Deleted
10/25/07 6:51:30 PM#49

 

 

I want to take this opportunity to correct some out dated contact information I had posted previously for those that may want to contact the "Licensor" (one that issues a license) of Star Trek.

Viacom has recently gone through some significant restructuring of it's various business units, especially it's Consumer Products units.

The following is the most up to date information I was able to discover about the person ultimately responsible for the handling of the Star Trek license.

So if you would like to send a letter regarding your concerns about PE's handling of the Star Trek license, or if you want to send a letter in support of PE, this is the person you want to send that letter to:

 

Leigh Anne Brodsky
President of Nickelodeon & Viacom Consumer Products
Nickelodeon
1515 Broadway
New York, N.Y. 10036

In this role, Ms. Brodsky oversees the Viacom Consumer Products business, as well as the licensing and merchandising for MTV Networks International, Comedy Central, Nickelodeon, Nick at Nite, Paramount, TV Land and Spike TV. In addition, she co-manages the international division with the regional channels. She reports to Jeffrey Dunn, President, Film and Nickelodeon Enterprises. Prior to becoming President, Ms. Brodsky served as Executive Vice President of Nickelodeon Consumer Products.

Ms. Brodsky is responsible for leading and managing the strategic development of Nickelodeon’s multi-billion dollar consumer products businesses, including the licensing, software and publishing, and entertainment products groups. Responsible for assessing new opportunities and maximizing merchandising programs on current and new products, she has spearheaded record breaking licensing programs for Rugrats, Blue’s Clues, Dora the Explorer and SpongeBob SquarePants.

 

I apologize for any inconvenience my previously posted contact information may have caused.

  Da3d3lus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 7

10/25/07 7:18:49 PM#50

 I get what you guys are saying and unfortunatly it comes down to money. Look at the fps genre. Have we had much in the way of innovation over the years? Not really, it is basically the same concepts layed down by doom and quake back in the early 90's. RTS genre is basically the same, besides hero units in WC3 RTS games follow the basic concepts layed down by TA and SC and of course WC and Dune. For this there is one main reason. Gaming studios with the massive development costs are nervous about trying new things. What if the investment flops? So of course they look for the tried and true formula that people are already familiar with and they know works. Unfortunatly cookie cutter WoW is the tried and true formula (as was UO and EQ before it). many new MMO games attempting something new just dont cut it and are generally relegated to the mists of time. Look at Motor City or Auto Assault. Two completely new concepts moving away from the fantasy mmo that just didnt make it. Look at SWG, a true sandbox game where character creation was king, relegated to a WoW clone. Unfortunatly until the cookie cutter grindfest mmo game fans start screaming for innovation because there genre is stale we won't be seeing anything spectacular happening with the genre anytime soon.

 

To answer your post Shannia unfortunatly while a developer should be listening to the fans the voice of the shareholders and producers generally speak much much louder. Lucas Arts and the NGE sort of stand out here as a perfect example (sorry for all the SWG comparisons but its the perfect example of Not What To Do To Your Fanbase!)     I personally think that what most people should do is take it easy and just wait for alpha/beta. AFAIK they dont even have a working build yet do they? Until we see that and of course alpha/beta its going to be pretty hard us to really criticise anything they do as no one has seen it in action. Im sure also that everyone will have more than enough time to rip it all apart during beta.

Btw im not trying to defend anything that the devs have said or done. Just trying to get people to see things from a different perspective.

  Mosfet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 126

Games are like air! You wont miss either until you aren''t getting any.

10/26/07 2:05:57 PM#51

The best place to get our thoughts and ideas through to PE would be using the Official STO forums, but I dont think PE has the guts to put one up. An IP like Star Trek is abit different than others. Why? Because it has big fanbase that knows the IP pretty darn good. A fan base that big cant big ignored. Its a different story with a totally new and unknown IP, but with a known IP like ST, the words and ideas of fans should be considered with great care.  ST has a HUGE fanbase. If they are somewhat pleased, they would have alot of subscribers just waiting to type in their credit card numbers...

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures."

  Coward92

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/07
Posts: 39

REDRUM!

10/26/07 2:57:16 PM#52

Originally posted by Mosfet

ST has a HUGE fanbase.

  Is that now a popular myth, or is is true? The last 10 years Ancient Roman and Greek mythology has been more popular than Trek. You have all those Roman games, "Rome" TV show, "Gladiator" and "Troy" and "Alexander."

 What has Trek had? It's considered nerdy to even like Trek.

  There has been no culturally significant Trek success since 1996 "First Contact."

I think the Trek fanbase basically aged out. The new generations of kids (25 and under) just are not into Trek. So I don't know if STO has a chance of being anymore successful than G&H. PE is not aiming for the Trekkies of old.

PE is aiming for the WoW audience. And Star Trek will be just the skins. It remains to be seen if STO can compete any better than G&H.

 

REDRUM!!

  Mosfet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 126

Games are like air! You wont miss either until you aren''t getting any.

10/27/07 2:36:13 AM#53

Originally posted by Coward92

 

Originally posted by Mosfet

ST has a HUGE fanbase.

  Is that now a popular myth, or is is true? The last 10 years Ancient Roman and Greek mythology has been more popular than Trek. You have all those Roman games, "Rome" TV show, "Gladiator" and "Troy" and "Alexander."

 

 What has Trek had? It's considered nerdy to even like Trek.

  There has been no culturally significant Trek success since 1996 "First Contact."

I think the Trek fanbase basically aged out. The new generations of kids (25 and under) just are not into Trek. So I don't know if STO has a chance of being anymore successful than G&H. PE is not aiming for the Trekkies of old.

PE is aiming for the WoW audience. And Star Trek will be just the skins. It remains to be seen if STO can compete any better than G&H.

 

True. The fanbase most likely has diminished or rather changed from hardcore "Live long and prosper" fans to "Star Trek? Yeah, I know that show, seen a few episodes and a movie, its pretty good." But I dont believe you can remove people from the fan list  just because they dont know every detail about Cpt. Kirks life etc.

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures."

  User Deleted
10/27/07 6:03:10 AM#54

 

Originally posted by Mosfet

 

Originally posted by Coward92

 

Originally posted by Mosfet

ST has a HUGE fanbase.

  Is that now a popular myth, or is is true? The last 10 years Ancient Roman and Greek mythology has been more popular than Trek. You have all those Roman games, "Rome" TV show, "Gladiator" and "Troy" and "Alexander."

 

 What has Trek had? It's considered nerdy to even like Trek.

  There has been no culturally significant Trek success since 1996 "First Contact."

I think the Trek fanbase basically aged out. The new generations of kids (25 and under) just are not into Trek. So I don't know if STO has a chance of being anymore successful than G&H. PE is not aiming for the Trekkies of old.

PE is aiming for the WoW audience. And Star Trek will be just the skins. It remains to be seen if STO can compete any better than G&H.

 

True. The fanbase most likely has diminished or rather changed from hardcore "Live long and prosper" fans to "Star Trek? Yeah, I know that show, seen a few episodes and a movie, its pretty good." But I dont believe you can remove people from the fan list  just because they dont know every detail about Cpt. Kirks life etc.

 

 

 

OK you guys knock it off. lol

You make it sound like all of the Star Trek fans like myself are dying off. Well I've got news for you, I'm not dead yet, and the major segment of the U.S. population that knows and loves Star Trek are in a group called the "Baby Boomers" (born between 1946 - 1957). There are 80,000,000 Baby Boomers in the U.S. and more than a few of us actually know how to operate a computer, and a few of us even play MMO's and other electronic games.

Do a search on the Internet and you will find articles discussing the aging of the computer/video gaming market.

One thing I will agree with you two about is the target age for STO that PE should aim for, should be 35 - 60 and not 14 - 30.

The trouble that PE is going to have with Baby Boomers is this, we have very little tolerance for those that are rude, arrogant, exhibit a sense of entitlement or prove to be slackers or incompetent. PE and their Daron Stinnett have already exhibited many of these characteristics which may prove to be problematic for the company moving forward.

In any event, Baby Boomers may be much older than most on this forum, but we aren't all dying off just yet.

  Mosfet

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 126

Games are like air! You wont miss either until you aren''t getting any.

10/27/07 2:25:04 PM#55

Sorry!

 

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand alloys and compositions and things with... molecular structures."

  jayce

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/06
Posts: 133

10/27/07 7:57:39 PM#56
Originally posted by Da3d3lus

 So they decide to work around that problem so everyone can be captain. 


i stopped reading after that sentence. i don't want to see a captain every time i walk 10 feet. that rank should really have some meaning to it, like this person knows what they are doing and knows what to do. this person has demostrated that their ship and crew comes first. this person's service record proves that they are capable of commanding a starship. im sorry if some people don't see that the way that i do. but if all people want to do is to have their own ship, then i don't see a problem with someone, incapable of commanding a starship, taking out a runabout, a shuttlecraft or slightly larger ship that can be controlled by one person. that way, they are not endangering anyone else with an acceptable loss of that particular ship type. much easier to repair/replace it instead of crewed vessel. and if i were a captain with the option to reject someone using one of my shuttles then you best believe some people are going to be highly disappointed. especially if they are a screw-up.

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