Star Trek Online Forum » General Discussion » "YOU CAN'T" - not a good recipe for Win.

Rabbid that was bloody brilliant! I was actually picturing the TNG cast while reading.

The forums on this site are in desperate need of some good humour.

/ salute

Originally posted by FishyHat

There are usually several chief's and more times than not it turns into a cluster.

Why don't you just admit you hate grouping?

Having the same type of thing on a starship with maybe 60 people barking different orders would be, like other games, a confusing mess...only instead of loss of life it's also the loss of a starship as well.

Try actually reading up on the game. Cryptic has said you can't lose your ship from combat.

OK, so let's assume for a moment that a Chief Engineer decides to get a big head and you have little choice but to kick him right then and there....now you're in deep space without a C.E. and you have to, let say, rely on a rookie engineer to take up the reigns.

Aside from the fact that the game already offers NPC bridge crew (and I'm not suggesting removing them from the game), that's still a better option than losing a player from the middle of a dungeon run.

And this is where the problem begins...we must assume that a C.E. is a C.E. for a reason (I.E. learned skills that makes repair faster and so on) Now you got a rookie doing the job of a C.E. with half the experience and skill...that's like have a level 15 healer trying to keep a level 30 tank alive...it's possible but extremely difficult.

Yes, and losing an important member of the bridge crew during an active mission SHOULD cause problems.

So, to solve this probelm you have more than one high ranking officer on board at any given time, basically doubling your crew...but since your regular crew is keeping the ship...erm..ship-shape...you have a whole bunch of high ranking officers doing nothing.

Doing nothing? Nope. Running training missions on the holodeck or crafting.

Which means you're not going to be having this group for long...who would want to get a character to a respectable level only to spend the rest of his/her career sitting?

This isn't even considering the friends the C.E. may have had aborad ship that decide to up and leave with him, possibly crippling your starship in one fell swoop.

Crippling your ship for one mission - which is no different from screwing up an instanced dungeon run.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter 

Why don't you just admit you hate grouping?

Eh? so because i mostly agree with a NPC group on a starship and/or i've had bad grouping experiences...i hate grouping??? right...

I have no problems with grouping, I've played MMO's in which grouping is a requirement...don't assume that you know my gameplay style or what i do or do not like. The simple fact of the matter is that i've had bad grouping experience like many other have had, all i'm doing is using a worst case senario as an example. That's all

Try actually reading up on the game. Cryptic has said you can't lose your ship from combat.

Which is more idiotic than not having a PC crew.

Aside from the fact that the game already offers NPC bridge crew (and I'm not suggesting removing them from the game), that's still a better option than losing a player from the middle of a dungeon run.

Ok, so if your C.E. doesn't show up just spawn a NPC to take his place...so it's right back to square one. If you can spawn NPC crewmembers at will why even bother looking for a crew in the first place? With a full NPC crew you know that you don't have to wait for people to finally show up.

Yes, and losing an important member of the bridge crew during an active mission SHOULD cause problems.

I never said otherwise.

Doing nothing? Nope. Running training missions on the holodeck or crafting.

Right, because...you know..THAT won't get boring. So your idea for solving the problem of having PC sitting around on a starship waiting to be useful is to run the same two/three/six training mission over and over until they're needed?!? There's a differece between guild members actually playing the game as opposed to guild member running the same missions over and over again until they're needed.

Crafting?? Ok..so assuming for one minute that they even enjoy crafting in the first place, crafting for hours at a time day in and day out get's boring too.

Crippling your ship for one mission - which is no different from screwing up an instanced dungeon run.

One mission is all it takes.

It's obvious by now that were going to agree to disagree on this subject, no need to waste even more of our time on this. As i said before, not having a PC crew isn't going to disuade me from at least trying this game out, i hope the same goes for you.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by FishyHat 

I like to read what other gamers thoughts are on a paticular game.

 

You claim you like to hear opinions on this game and yet when we give you our opinion you launch into a rant about how our opinion doesn't matter because we obviously don't know anything about the game and can't judge it until it comes out. But if our opinions don't matter why do you want to hear them? What kind of sense does that make? It would be like bringing a jury to a trial and then completely ignoring their verdict.

  What?? there is a difference between a discussion and a rant...what i'm doing is discussing the con's of having a ship crew. I've taken up the Crypitc side and MMO_Doubter is defending his stance and defending it well. No feathers have been ruffled and no personal attacks have been made against one anothner. So what the hell have you been reading?

When did i say that other's opinions don't matter? Alll i said is that i'm actually going to play the game before making a decision on it, if this makes me wrong then so be it. If you want to make decisions about STO before it comes out then fine, i'll read what you have to say and if i disagree i'll post...yeesh, what's so difficult to understand about that? Since when does a disagreement=lack of respect for other's opinion's ?

"Launch into a rant" "our opinions don't matter" LOL...ok man, whatever. If i knew you're were going to get so butt-hurt over a discussion i wouldn't have even bothered.

The Internet...serious business.

Originally posted by FishyHat

I've taken up the Crypitc side 

i'm actually going to play the game before making a decision on it

i'll read what you have to say and if i disagree i'll post

See, this is what doesn't make sense about your post.

You SAY you want to hear our opinions...

...but apparently only so you can disagree with them!

And after that you say "BUT I'M GOING TO WAIT UNTIL THE GAME COMES OUT TO DECIDE"  just to make sure that nobody can argue with your opinion... apparently only you are allowed to disagree with people but they can't disagree with you without being hit with the old "your opinion doesn't count cause you haven't played the game yet" stick.

If you have truly decided to wait until the game comes out then fine, go ahead and wait. But don't then come in here and ask for our opinion on the game just so you can disagree with us. Again: Its like bringing a jury to a trial and then telling them their verdict doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter to you, don't ask the jury for their verdict in the first place.

So pick a side. Either you are here to talk about the game because we have enough information to make a decision. Or we don't have enough information to make a decision and there isn't any point in talking about it since that would be a waste of time. You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by FishyHat

I've taken up the Crypitc side 

i'm actually going to play the game before making a decision on it

i'll read what you have to say and if i disagree i'll post

 

See, this is what doesn't make sense about your post.

You SAY you want to hear our opinions...

Correct.

...but apparently only so you can disagree with them!

So, let me get this right..i can have a stance on the subject, as long as i don't discuss it or have a discussion about it, or rather, as long at it agrees with your stance? Right...got it.

And after that you say "BUT I'M GOING TO WAIT UNTIL THE GAME COMES OUT TO DECIDE"  just to make sure that nobody can argue with your opinion... apparently only you are allowed to disagree with people but they can't disagree with you without being hit with the old "your opinion doesn't count cause you haven't played the game yet" stick.

MMO_Doubter seems to disagree with me pretty well, people can disagree with me all they want...it's part of having a discussion. It might be hard for you to grasp but people can read opposing sides without being swayed one way or the other on trying out a game.

If you have truly decided to wait until the game comes out then fine, go ahead and wait. But don't then come in here and ask for our opinion on the game just so you can disagree with us. Again: Its like bringing a jury to a trial and then telling them their verdict doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter to you, don't ask the jury for their verdict in the first place.

Once again i'm simply observing on what other people are discussing and throwing in my own two cents on the matter. And once again you seem to fail to grasp the extremely simple concept that people can not be swayed by opinion yet still have a constructive discussion with others on the subject.

So pick a side. Either you are here to talk about the game because we have enough information to make a decision. Or we don't have enough information to make a decision and there isn't any point in talking about it since that would be a waste of time. You can't have it both ways.

I have picked a side, i thought i made that pretty clear.

"There isn't any point in talking about it since that would be a waste of time" LOL...that's rich coming from somebody who knows that there  isn't going to be a PC ship crew yet still harps on the subject.

Whatever man, you win...go ahead and discuss whatever you want..keep pissing in the wind if it makes you feel better. I'll not comment anymore on the subject.

 

Originally posted by FishyHat

A: i can have a stance on the subject, as long as i don't discuss it or have a discussion about it, or rather, as long at it agrees with your stance?

B: people can read opposing sides without being swayed one way or the other on trying out a game.

C: that's rich coming from somebody who knows that there isn't going to be a PC ship crew yet still harps on the subject.

A: Yes, thats pretty much what YOU are trying to tell US. I think you understand your own point of view now. When you come in here, SAYING you want to hear opinions, but then declare that you have made up your mind already and are going to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with you, that is pretty much what you are telling us: That our opinion doesn't matter and you have only come here to tell us about how wrong we are. I don't really CARE if you came here just to argue, thats fine. I understand thats why people come to this forum. I just want you to admit that you are only pretending to be open minded as an excuse to argue.

B: But why bother? WHY BOTHER? If you already have made up your mind (even though you keep claiming we can't make up our minds until the game is out) why ask for opinions? Again: Its like asking for a trial by jury then ignoring the verdict. You don't really care about our opinons. You just came to argue, just like all the rest of us.

C: This proves you don't care about our opinions because you don't even know what mine is! I have NEVER ONCE asked for ship crews. Not once. I don't approve of Cryptic's casual gamer linear randomly generated instanced design for this game but that doesn't mean I've ever asked them to add ship crews. I've argued aginst the people who try to say ship crews are impossible, because I beleive it is possible (in fact I know for a fact it is possible because I can name other games which have done it) but that doesn't mean I have ever asked for them. If you had actually read any of my opinions that I have posted on this forum you would know exactly what my real complaints with Cryptic are. But the fact you just try to lump me in with the ship crew crowd proves that you are only here to pick a fight.

If you are here to argue thats fine. I know thats what this forum is for and I'll gladly argue with you day and night if you wish. But what I want from you first is for you to admit that you don't care about our opinions, you just came here to defend the game because you already know you approve of it.

Curious after watching the youtube trailer... I came and read a few posts about the opinons...

YES: I'm kinda dissapointed Cryptic did not implement a wider idea into the Star Trek universe. Today was the first time I actually saw the trailer, but from a space game mixed with ground-play I expected something that involved group, or guild oriented spaceship control that would involve each and everyone's participation to um... go beyond (harhar) the already established MMO image. Ofcourse this idea has many flaws... like the fact that it might be too arcade-like and become repetitive, but I think it could work with clever design, only ofcourse I do not know what that might be.

NO: I won't be playing STO, not because I think it'll fail, NO MMO will 'fail' , but simply because I believe it won't bring anything new to the MMO genre.

I am posting this with my limited knowledge of star trek (watched one or two episodes LONG time ago and few of the movies, including the new one), but I still think a space MMO should be able to... expand abit more.

P.S: the ongoing argument will never end, just accept one has different views and constantly replying to each other's post by nit-picking details won't settle anything.

If what the OP posted is true. This is going to be a lame excuse for an immersive MMO. You cant look at other parts of your own ship, you cant be anything other than a captain, you cant even invite people onto your own ship, epic fail. Hopefully Star Wars TOR will do better.

Originally posted by jadonc

If what the OP posted is true. This is going to be a lame excuse for an immersive MMO. You cant look at other parts of your own ship, you cant be anything other than a captain, you cant even invite people onto your own ship, epic fail. Hopefully Star Wars TOR will do better.

All of those things are true. Cryptic has confirmed there will be no Starship interiors at launch. "Maybe" in an expansion.

Still, I doubt TOR will be better.

Originally posted by Raltar

 

All of those things are true. Cryptic has confirmed there will be no Starship interiors at launch. "Maybe" in an expansion.

Still, I doubt TOR will be better.

I do think SWTOR will be better - as it will likely have lots of pretty good single-player content.

It won't be a good MMORPG, though.

Hmm, aside from the humor of the OP, one thing stood way out for me...

You can't walk around your ship?

That was a joke right?  Tell me there's not just a 3rd person view of your ship in space?  Tell me it's not so because if it is, well, can we say "immersion lost".

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Raltar

 

All of those things are true. Cryptic has confirmed there will be no Starship interiors at launch. "Maybe" in an expansion.

Still, I doubt TOR will be better.

I do think SWTOR will be better - as it will likely have lots of pretty good single-player content.

It won't be a good MMORPG, though.

You = wrong

SWTOR is going to pwn face, eos.

Originally posted by Stevon

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Raltar

 

All of those things are true. Cryptic has confirmed there will be no Starship interiors at launch. "Maybe" in an expansion.

Still, I doubt TOR will be better.

I do think SWTOR will be better - as it will likely have lots of pretty good single-player content.

It won't be a good MMORPG, though.

 

You = wrong

SWTOR is going to pwn face, eos.

It'll be a nice single player game, but if anyone tries to call it an MMORPG they'd be a liar. 

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Stevon

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Raltar

 

All of those things are true. Cryptic has confirmed there will be no Starship interiors at launch. "Maybe" in an expansion.

Still, I doubt TOR will be better.

I do think SWTOR will be better - as it will likely have lots of pretty good single-player content.

It won't be a good MMORPG, though.

 

You = wrong

SWTOR is going to pwn face, eos.

It'll be a nice single player game, but if anyone tries to call it an MMORPG they'd be a liar. 

Can't we all just "get along" ?
 

Originally posted by Fritoman

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Stevon

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Raltar

 

All of those things are true. Cryptic has confirmed there will be no Starship interiors at launch. "Maybe" in an expansion.

Still, I doubt TOR will be better.

I do think SWTOR will be better - as it will likely have lots of pretty good single-player content.

It won't be a good MMORPG, though.

 

You = wrong

SWTOR is going to pwn face, eos.

It'll be a nice single player game, but if anyone tries to call it an MMORPG they'd be a liar. 

Can't we all just "get along" ?
 

That would make the hater's heads explode. I'm very curious what games they actually ARE looking forward to if there are any. So far we know they hate both STO and TOR, two totally different IPS that are going to be nothing alike so the question is, "what are you people looking for?" or are there no games in development that pleases your almighty high standards?

Actually the "haters" seem to be clearly stating their opinions and backing up their reasons for doubting this game.

Its the people defending this game (such as the poster before me who shall remain nameless) who use the same tired arguements in every post, rant that people who don't like the game shouldn't be allowed an opinion and back up their posts with little more than sarcasm or outright insults.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by FishyHat

I always think the best way to judge a game is to actually wait until it comes out before raking it over the coals.

Then why are you reading and posting in this forum?

I have no idea what STO will be like,

I do.

but i am willing to at least give it a try. Every MMO has limitations or simply cannot incorporate every single thing a gamer would like to see in it, would i like to be a First Officer on a starship? not really, no....i mean what exactly would a Riker-like character even do on a ship with a competent captain? Not to mention the eventual ego brusing that is bound to happen with two people basically in charge of one ship.

Frankly i think a ship manned by an all PC crew would eventually turn into a "too many chief's, not enough indian's", i mean..let's be honest here, we've all been in that one guild that has people constantly bickering about leadership or their position within that group..we've all seen that player who gets way too high and mighty and believes that the whole guild will rise and fall to to his/her presence or lack thereof.

 

Instance runs in other MMOs have one chief and the rest are Indians. Why would it work differently in this game?

Bad players can be kicked from groups/guilds.

 

Because instance runs are NOT the only things you can do in a MMO. No one is going to a play that grouping is the only option.

Plus, it really depends on the size of the audience. If 95 out of 100 players want to be the captain, it is silly to spend resources to create mini-games for the last 5 who want to be a bartender.

Seriously, how many people would want to be a bartender? I dont.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by FishyHat

I always think the best way to judge a game is to actually wait until it comes out before raking it over the coals.

Then why are you reading and posting in this forum?

I have no idea what STO will be like,

I do.

but i am willing to at least give it a try. Every MMO has limitations or simply cannot incorporate every single thing a gamer would like to see in it, would i like to be a First Officer on a starship? not really, no....i mean what exactly would a Riker-like character even do on a ship with a competent captain? Not to mention the eventual ego brusing that is bound to happen with two people basically in charge of one ship.

Frankly i think a ship manned by an all PC crew would eventually turn into a "too many chief's, not enough indian's", i mean..let's be honest here, we've all been in that one guild that has people constantly bickering about leadership or their position within that group..we've all seen that player who gets way too high and mighty and believes that the whole guild will rise and fall to to his/her presence or lack thereof.

 

Instance runs in other MMOs have one chief and the rest are Indians. Why would it work differently in this game?

Bad players can be kicked from groups/guilds.

 

 

Because instance runs are NOT the only things you can do in a MMO. No one is going to a play that grouping is the only option.

Plus, it really depends on the size of the audience. If 95 out of 100 players want to be the captain, it is silly to spend resources to create mini-games for the last 5 who want to be a bartender.

Seriously, how many people would want to be a bartender? I dont.

I wouldn't, but I could see fans wanting to be a ferengi trader just like Quark and Quark was a bartender.I know it isn't going to happen, but I think allowing playable Ferengi would have added a lot to the game. The Ferengi would be for those players who prefer the more social aspects of gaming, such as hanging in bars, talking to people, selling and trading. Fits in perfectly with the Star Trek Universe.

Originally posted by DevilXaphan

LOL.........the basic absence of any 3d movement in a space MMO is rediculous as any good space RTS game has this.

I forsee not a lot of people playing this.

I'm a little concerned by the movement issue... but I'm hoping it'll be added in time. Otherwise it'll be a 3D graphics, 2D environment game.

Originally posted by FishyHat

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter 

Why don't you just admit you hate grouping?

Eh? so because i mostly agree with a NPC group on a starship and/or i've had bad grouping experiences...i hate grouping??? right...

I have no problems with grouping, I've played MMO's in which grouping is a requirement...don't assume that you know my gameplay style or what i do or do not like. The simple fact of the matter is that i've had bad grouping experience like many other have had, all i'm doing is using a worst case senario as an example. That's all

Try actually reading up on the game. Cryptic has said you can't lose your ship from combat.

Which is more idiotic than not having a PC crew.

Aside from the fact that the game already offers NPC bridge crew (and I'm not suggesting removing them from the game), that's still a better option than losing a player from the middle of a dungeon run.

Ok, so if your C.E. doesn't show up just spawn a NPC to take his place...so it's right back to square one. If you can spawn NPC crewmembers at will why even bother looking for a crew in the first place? With a full NPC crew you know that you don't have to wait for people to finally show up.

Yes, and losing an important member of the bridge crew during an active mission SHOULD cause problems.

I never said otherwise.

Doing nothing? Nope. Running training missions on the holodeck or crafting.

Right, because...you know..THAT won't get boring. So your idea for solving the problem of having PC sitting around on a starship waiting to be useful is to run the same two/three/six training mission over and over until they're needed?!? There's a differece between guild members actually playing the game as opposed to guild member running the same missions over and over again until they're needed.

Crafting?? Ok..so assuming for one minute that they even enjoy crafting in the first place, crafting for hours at a time day in and day out get's boring too.

Crippling your ship for one mission - which is no different from screwing up an instanced dungeon run.

One mission is all it takes.

It's obvious by now that were going to agree to disagree on this subject, no need to waste even more of our time on this. As i said before, not having a PC crew isn't going to disuade me from at least trying this game out, i hope the same goes for you.

Cheers.

 

FishyHat,

What makes you assume that having the ability to do multi-player crewed ships in a game precludes it from having engaging single-player content? Most games manage to include a mix of the two without any issues. There is no need it has to be an all or nothing affair.  Most of the objections you have raised would hold equally true for any multi-player/group/raid content in any other MMO.

The way I see it working would be something like this. Player A logs in and decides what sort of content he wants to do that day

1) Single Player Options

 - Beam to Starbase Alpha. Take starbase based single-player mission (example track down and capture Klingon Spy on Starbase) .

 - Take Warp-Shuttle/Transport  to Planet Tau Ceti Epsilon. Take ground based single-player mission (example Collect 12 Rare Isotope samples on southern continent. Avoid be killed by dangerous native life forms that live there while doing so).

 - Beam to Starbase Alpha. Take SPACE based single-player mission. Player uses thier Prestiege to requsition a small single-player crewed ship (warp-shuttle, runabout, fighter, maybe even a gunboat or corvette with some NPC crewmen). Example of mission. Head to nearby asteriod field. Locate hidden Orion Pirate base. Destroy/Evade any Orion Pirate drones guarding base, return to Starbase Alpha and report.

- Trek version of crafting/research/engineering

 2) Group Options

 - Beam to Starbase Alpha. Take Space based group mission. Player advertises for Pickup Group for crew. Pickup group forms. May choose ANY of the ships that are personaly "owned" (e.g. assigned) to any of the players (frigates, cruisers, etc) OR may pool thier prestiege to requisition a generic ship of the appropriate class to run the mission. Example of mission, hunt down and destroy Kilngon D7M raider in nearby sector.

- Same mission as above but done with Guild-Mates. Players may elect to use any GUILD OWNED owned ships which they have been granted access/command permissions to use.

- Ground/Starbase based Away Team mission with Guild or PUG.