Originally posted by jaxsundane

Originally posted by Quizar1973

Ok...When Champions Online first came out of Beta And went Live...I was tottally Against it 100% cause I thought Cryptic was messin up and wasnt on accedent either....But then I had friends say to me that the game got better and Cryptic actually took time and listened to what people want and did it in Champions. Well of corse I told them No way...Didnt happen....But.....Then I went home and tried it...And i have to say..I have changed my whole opinion On Cryptic and the Champions Online MMORPG...I got back on and to my suprise it was 100% better than what it was right after the Live release...I know people Will say mean things here about this post but I rather dont care cause I see it for myself....I just wondered why people still have the Hate for the game??  Cause it has changed for the better and that tells me Cryptic is trying to work with the Gamers....

 In short Champions is a mediocre game from a less than desirable dev with a so so IP.  Truthfully I am so glad that Marvel pulled it's license after seeing this game.  It is so bland and generic it isn't funny and seeing how badly Cryptic translated STO I'm sure many a Marvel exec is breathing a sigh of relief.

The one point that you can usually find people pushing as a strong point for this game is the character creator and honestly even that is not as good as I'd heard, I really enjoyed COH better which is some four or so years older than Champions.  IMO Cryptic is riding high on having created the COH customization but nothing they've done since has come close, they swore it would be a strong point in Champions (again it isn't even better than it's predecessor in COH) and again with STO and again I spent countless hours in COH just making toons that I sometimes never played but wouldn't erase because they looked so cool I've never been able to dedicate even a single hour to either the Champions or STO creator.

The customization is clearly better in CO. You can modify individual parts of the body and face, different stances, more parts of the body to change. The only advantage that CoH has is the number of pieces that is pretty much the result of 5 years of being alive. One of the free weekend of CoH I tried to make a new character and even with the power coloring it felt so limited that I gave up. I got spoiled by CO character creator. 

What I observed is that the trend of "disappointed on CO" people is more related to CO not being more like CoH or wow in one sense or the other.

CoH people were expecting that CO was CoH powerset were you could choose from all powers in powerset. CO is a faster paced game, so the system is quite different that those people were expecting.

For once, tanking was not so trivial, in CoH tanks could even tank afk, the herding stuff was pretty too brainless. CO tanking is more wow like, need to taunt and have your aggro high, a tank cannot be just a meatshield because it wont hold aggro without pulling enough damage. It is more along the classic comic were superman was tough to kill but at the same time damaging, in CoH superman build is Super Strenght/Invulnerability making a weak version of superman. 

Healing, buffing and debuffing is less relevant, full support people fans were disappointed when they weren't worship for being healazor, buff/debuff vending machine. If you heal like crazy and you will be dead soon, aggro is a serious thing in CO. It could be argue that it is diminish the sacred trinity of roles but the idea is to soft it more in the lines of the actual comics and less in the tradition of sword and magic mmos. You might not like it but still it has a reason behind it. 

Anyway, there is not much to be done about this perception. However, more people are trying the game and the population is slowly increasing, my SG is receiving more people every week, and this even with all the hate that has been spread.

Originally posted by Quizar1973

I just wondered why people still have the Hate for the game??  

Because it reminds me of my father. I HATED my father!

Originally posted by OSF8759

Originally posted by Quizar1973

I just wondered why people still have the Hate for the game??  

Because it reminds me of my father. I HATED my father!

So make a super villan and rampage across Champios with burning hatred for him :)

Originally posted by Aethaeryn

The only thing I have to say that is mean is your use of . . .instead of just a period.  I do that a lot though so I can't call you out on that.  One thing to do that is more acceptible is to change them to   a dash instead.

 

Aside from that I don't think there is anything wrong with your post.  I have a hard time believing that the game is 100% better.  I can see some improvements but not that large.   I hope you don't get flamed too bad.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion - and you are allowed to share yours.  See how I used the dash there. . . I just think it looks nicer. . oh now see I am not :)

omg I do that all the time too. I really need to get my point across by adding the extra dots so people understand the pause in between what I say...I think it's because of Anime....

Originally posted by gandales

Originally posted by jaxsundane

Originally posted by Quizar1973

Ok...When Champions Online first came out of Beta And went Live...I was tottally Against it 100% cause I thought Cryptic was messin up and wasnt on accedent either....But then I had friends say to me that the game got better and Cryptic actually took time and listened to what people want and did it in Champions. Well of corse I told them No way...Didnt happen....But.....Then I went home and tried it...And i have to say..I have changed my whole opinion On Cryptic and the Champions Online MMORPG...I got back on and to my suprise it was 100% better than what it was right after the Live release...I know people Will say mean things here about this post but I rather dont care cause I see it for myself....I just wondered why people still have the Hate for the game??  Cause it has changed for the better and that tells me Cryptic is trying to work with the Gamers....

 In short Champions is a mediocre game from a less than desirable dev with a so so IP.  Truthfully I am so glad that Marvel pulled it's license after seeing this game.  It is so bland and generic it isn't funny and seeing how badly Cryptic translated STO I'm sure many a Marvel exec is breathing a sigh of relief.

The one point that you can usually find people pushing as a strong point for this game is the character creator and honestly even that is not as good as I'd heard, I really enjoyed COH better which is some four or so years older than Champions.  IMO Cryptic is riding high on having created the COH customization but nothing they've done since has come close, they swore it would be a strong point in Champions (again it isn't even better than it's predecessor in COH) and again with STO and again I spent countless hours in COH just making toons that I sometimes never played but wouldn't erase because they looked so cool I've never been able to dedicate even a single hour to either the Champions or STO creator.

The customization is clearly better in CO. You can modify individual parts of the body and face, different stances, more parts of the body to change. The only advantage that CoH has is the number of pieces that is pretty much the result of 5 years of being alive. One of the free weekend of CoH I tried to make a new character and even with the power coloring it felt so limited that I gave up. I got spoiled by CO character creator. 

What I observed is that the trend of "disappointed on CO" people is more related to CO not being more like CoH or wow in one sense or the other.

CoH people were expecting that CO was CoH powerset were you could choose from all powers in powerset. CO is a faster paced game, so the system is quite different that those people were expecting.

For once, tanking was not so trivial, in CoH tanks could even tank afk, the herding stuff was pretty too brainless. CO tanking is more wow like, need to taunt and have your aggro high, a tank cannot be just a meatshield because it wont hold aggro without pulling enough damage. It is more along the classic comic were superman was tough to kill but at the same time damaging, in CoH superman build is Super Strenght/Invulnerability making a weak version of superman. 

Healing, buffing and debuffing is less relevant, full support people fans were disappointed when they weren't worship for being healazor, buff/debuff vending machine. If you heal like crazy and you will be dead soon, aggro is a serious thing in CO. It could be argue that it is diminish the sacred trinity of roles but the idea is to soft it more in the lines of the actual comics and less in the tradition of sword and magic mmos. You might not like it but still it has a reason behind it. 

Anyway, there is not much to be done about this perception. However, more people are trying the game and the population is slowly increasing, my SG is receiving more people every week, and this even with all the hate that has been spread.

 

 I only hear a lot of hate here. CO has the most helpful forums I've seen in a long time. I always read official forums and see what people that like the game are complaining about. People that hate a game may have valid objective points, but it is hard to distinguish them from "this game is not the type that I like."

I love both games but, there is no way that COX has better customization than CO. Not visually and obviously not in power choices.

I think the main problems people have with Champions Online stem from 5 main things:

1) Not what they were used to.

2) Emmert, the original lead developer for CoH, leaving to start this game with all the ideas he told CoH fans they couldn't have.

3) Learning curve.

4) First-time trying the game was a bad experience.

5) Lack of End-Game Content

--------------------------------------

To break these issues down and explain:

1) Most people who tried CO were coming from that type of game already, CoH, the only other super-hero MMO.  They were expecting the whole "Pick your powers", "Team up", "Easy tanking/healing" type of game, and were caught off-guard.  Champions has pretty much a solo-leveling atmosphere like WoW.  Most teaming is simply for public quests and dungeons.  Otherwise people tend to stick to themselves unless they need help with something, and then only team briefly.  This didn't ruin WoW, and in fact is what WoW capitalized on, but coming from CoH, this was a shock to many gamers, who were comfortable with their healer just sitting on the sidelines as a heal/buff-bot with only the one required attack move at lvl 1.  In Champions, they are expected to solo and pull their weight at least somewhat in more ways than healing.  Tanks are expected to pull off some damage and AoEs in order to keep aggro, rather than having threat given for free with taunting auras and an AoE full Taunt move, not to mention their inhrent power that gives them free aggro for simply punching, no matter how weak the attack.

2) Emmert, or Statesman, used to work for the Dev Team on CoH, and was notorious for nerfing, telling fans that their requests could not be done simply because the game wasn't designed to ever be able to do that, and had a general pessimism with how he ran the development of CoH.  When he left with Cryptic to create Champions, fans of CoH had more of a "don't let the door hit you on the way out" mentality about his leaving, mixed with some outrage that his new project was a hero game with all the stuff fans wanted in CoH that he told us was impossible.  This made CoH fans feel betrayed and almost robbed, and that is what kept me from wanting to try CO.  Prejudice against the guy in charge and the principle of it all.

3) There is a slight learning curve to Champions, for two main reasons.  First of all, the stat system is unlike anything done before it.  Sure some of the stats match other MMO stats in either name or purpose, but how the stats interract with your powers is what makes it so unique.  In CoH, you have damage, accuracy, defense, resistance, healing, etc., but in CO, how these stats in your individual powers are affected by your actual character stat points varies.  If you change your role from combat/dps to tanking, your powers scale completely different.  If you then go to a support role, some of your stats even reverse in purpose, such as Presence.  As a tank, you can heal yourself well, but not others, and your Presence stat raises your threat generation.  As a healer, you heal everyone well, and your Presence stat reduces your threat generation.  If you take a forcefield support move, it doesn't scale with the same stats as other heal-based support classes, and uses Endurance/Ego instead.  A tank could be built with Constitution (for HP, obviously a good choice), but as a second stat focus could choose Strength if using the power armor tanking passive, or Recovery if taking the regeneration passive.  No one job has one stat set required, like in WoW or CoH.  This is confusing to someone new to Champions Online, and I won't lie, my first two or three characters sucked miserably.  I didn't know what to use for what, but as I leveled and learned what stats I would need, my later characters were amazing.  I have someone who literally takes 4 or more people to bring down in PvP.  He is a tank in every sense of the word, and yet he still can kill people.  It took time to learn how to do this, and not all gamers like the experience of learning these things and like to jump in and have fun right off the bat.  There is nothing wrong with that, as everyone has their own idea of "fun", but this lends to some of the dislike of CO.

4) My friends who refuse to try CO won't try it because they claim they "already did."  This meaning they played the beta or right after launch.  I admit, the game had major flaws before beta that were cracked down on at release, to which my friends refered to as a "Mass-nerfing" when the game went live.  Even after release, the game had tons of issues, some of which only recently got ironed out.  They said this was bad design that the game needed altered so much, but I would like to remind people of all the bugs in CoH/CoV that these very same haters tend to overlook, lol.  If I had a dollar for every geometry hole I fell through when CoV went live, I could fund my own MMO.  How about the nearly unrecognizably different version of WoW we have now (not to mention when Cataclysm comes out) compared to Vanilla WoW?  Games are never released as a 100% final product anymore, and are fluid, living creations.  They never stay the same for long, especially when gamers like all the CO haters out there are so frustrated by these problems.  The fact that so many people were mad at release time was proof the game was going to undergo some more changes.  Obviously the devs would love to see you return, and have been listening rather well in the meantime to what the fans want.

The game as of last year was great, and I'm a huge CoH fan.  I do not consider Champions to be Cryptic's replacement for CoH/CoV, but I DO consider it to be a great competitor for my attention.  The only, I repeat, ONLY reason I do not play Champions at the moment is simply because all the people I would like to play with are either on WoW or CoH, and show no signs of ever leaving.  If I play CO, it means I play alone, and who wants to play a Massively-multiplayer online game without that multiplayer aspect?

5) Some people, most of which I can say play WoW, like tons of end-game content.  For me, the journey is the real experience of an MMORPG, or any RPG for that matter.  Sometimes it's fun to just go ape-sh** on something with your strongest character, but frankly, it's the leveling up, gaining new powers, developing your characters, and experiencing the game itself that is the most fun.  If you like this, then you will probably like CO just fine.  If you want to have a billion 25-man raids, dozens of epic dungeons, and several "tiers" of gear to work your way up only for them to make it all obsolete at the next expansion, then WoW is probably more your style.  Even when it comes to PvP, I find it more fun in mid-game levels, because there's that true, comic book sense of "You may have won this time, but I'll be back, and stronger than ever!  Just you wait!" that makes even late-game pvp feel stale in other MMOs.  Champions does not disappoint in pvp, except for where all MMOs fail in pvp: support classes are too easy to kill, and are the first to be targetted and killed.  Only Warhammer Online found a way to defeat this problem, and did it well, but Warhammer is a discussion for another thread.  :)  PvP or PvE, regardless of your preferences, is always more fun to me when I'm NOT max-level.  Once you get to the end of the game, there's nowhere to go from there really.  So I start an alt and enjoy the game all over again.

On a side-note, people forget that the only games with tons of end-game content only have all that content because of the sheer population of gamers they have subscribed.  Most end-game content: WoW.  Most players: WoW.  Not a coincidence, hehe.   :)  Champions is newer and less played.  The more people who play it, the better it will get.  The same goes for any MMO, and if Champions and Warhammer, and any of the other less-played games actually had the subscriptions to back them up, they'd be leaps and bounds ahead of WoW in overall game quality.  The lack of end-game content is actually a direct result of nobody actually sticking with and playing the game for very long.  It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

--------------------------------------

I think that anyone who hated the game should give it another shot.  It's worlds beyond what it used to be, has incredible customizability, and some of the most innovative and original attacks I've seen yet.  Never has a game re-awakened my inner child quite like when I first tried Swinging (travel power) in Champions Online.  I can't tell you how many times I screwed around just trying to see if I could accurately swing through/under/around small windows, balconies, and ledges, just to see if I could hit the mark with it.  I rolled an acrobat with pistols and super-reflex-style dodging abiltiy, and built him to be a tank, and he is one of the most elegant killers I have ever witnessed in a game.  The first time I activated my Orbital Strike power and gave it the Anvil of Dawn upgrade, I swear I just stopped fighting and watched the enemies run in terror, laughing like an evil genius.  There are experiences in CO I simply have no comparison for in other MMOs, and it's a shame so many people hate the game too much to ever experience such fun for themselves.

I highly recommend people put down their presumptions about Champions Online like I did, and honestly try it out again, even if only for a month.  Try it out, learn the stat system, level past 10, try the PvP, try different powers, and make several characters.  Learn what you like, and give the game a real chance.  It's actually quite good.  Don't forget, I used to be in your shoes hating this game too, lol.  :)

(Note: Sorry for the wall of text, heh.  :)  I figured if I was going to address the thread, I might as well do it all in one shot.  That's why I broke it down into the 5 numbered points.  If you don't care about one of the reasons, you can easily skip to one more relevant to your experience with CO.  I figured a "table of contents", so to speak, would beat a typical wall of text, lol.)

I must admit I get some of the reasons for the CO hate, but I don't agree with it.  CO is a decent game.  It's not a "second job" type of MMO, but not everybody wants a second job for their MMO.  Like CoX it's a fun game to dip into, and a fun game for those of us who suffer from alt-itis, but it could benefit from being bigger, with more content, that's for sure.  However, you can generally be having fun as soon as you log in, if you don't mind soloing a lot in an MMO.

Grouping is the only place CO really lets me down.  I just don't understand why they didn't just use the brilliant lft system and little tricks they had in CoX that made it such a great game for teaming.  I've heard the "classless" argument, but I don't buy that - CoV was pretty much like CO in terms of everyone being pretty much able to dish out damage, take it, and mitigate it, and the teaming effect in CoV was simply "steamrollering", which is plenty fun for a team.  I guess it's that the incentives aren't right in CO.  Some things have improved a wee bit (like difficulty scaling having been introduced), so hopefully they'll get the teaming sorted out at some point.

But even if they didn't, this is a good game to have on rotation - every time you play it again, the combat system is like a breath of fresh air, fun and fast-paced, and the build system is deep enough, and quirky enough, to get your teeth into.

Originally posted by gurugeorge

I must admit I get some of the reasons for the CO hate, but I don't agree with it.  CO is a decent game.  It's not a "second job" type of MMO, but not everybody wants a second job for their MMO.  Like CoX it's a fun game to dip into, and a fun game for those of us who suffer from alt-itis, but it could benefit from being bigger, with more content, that's for sure.  However, you can generally be having fun as soon as you log in, if you don't mind soloing a lot in an MMO.

Grouping is the only place CO really lets me down.  I just don't understand why they didn't just use the brilliant lft system and little tricks they had in CoX that made it such a great game for teaming.  I've heard the "classless" argument, but I don't buy that - CoV was pretty much like CO in terms of everyone being pretty much able to dish out damage, take it, and mitigate it, and the teaming effect in CoV was simply "steamrollering", which is plenty fun for a team.  I guess it's that the incentives aren't right in CO.  Some things have improved a wee bit (like difficulty scaling having been introduced), so hopefully they'll get the teaming sorted out at some point.

But even if they didn't, this is a good game to have on rotation - every time you play it again, the combat system is like a breath of fresh air, fun and fast-paced, and the build system is deep enough, and quirky enough, to get your teeth into.

You hit the nail on the head.  :)  It's a great MMO if you just want to get in for a month, quest, level up, do some PvP scenarios, etc., just don't look to team very often.  Only a select few harder missions have teaming involved, and even those can sometimes be solo'd.  This game is a lot like WoW, quest-wise; most people just solo until they want to do a dungeon or pvp scenario.  Otherwise, teaming is dead.  Unlike WoW, again I have to agree, the combat is unbelievably dynamic and exciting.  I find myself getting 2 or 3 levels in one session, never having quested all day.  I just took on hordes of zombies in the zombie apocalypse pvp scenario, or got into a cage fight 5v5.  It's like the best parts of Warhammer PvP plus WoW-style questing.

What I think Champions Online (and Warhammer Online, since I mentioned it, lol) need is SUBSCRIBERS.  The reason WoW dominates is because it has the financial backing to provide new, updated, and amazing content regularly.  Warhammer is a better game all-around if you ask me, but doesn't have enough players to fund adding much new content, and for the most part has been slowly shriveling in the shade next to WoW.  City of Heroes/Villains is a team oriented atmosphere, and does it well.  Because it thrives on that closer, more social community, it lasts despite games with more subscribers like WoW, simply through fan loyalty.  This nearly guaranteed stream of income lets CoH/V offer new free expansions every few months, plus small optional micro-transactions to keep things interesting.  If CO and WAR had the subscriptions to back it up, they would easily be tough competition for CoH/V and WoW.  CoH may be good at getting out new power sets and other content into the game, but imagine if a game as free-form as CO got its hands on the kinds of funds the other MMO giants have.  And Warhammer, look at how many races aren't playable yet, how many troops in the tabletop game haven't been represented yet... that's easily a dozen WoW expansions of content.  But it all comes down to "who has the money to accomplish it?" and frankly... not CO and WAR.  :-/

Originally posted by AgentForest

Originally posted by gurugeorge

I must admit I get some of the reasons for the CO hate, but I don't agree with it.  CO is a decent game.  It's not a "second job" type of MMO, but not everybody wants a second job for their MMO.  Like CoX it's a fun game to dip into, and a fun game for those of us who suffer from alt-itis, but it could benefit from being bigger, with more content, that's for sure.  However, you can generally be having fun as soon as you log in, if you don't mind soloing a lot in an MMO.

Grouping is the only place CO really lets me down.  I just don't understand why they didn't just use the brilliant lft system and little tricks they had in CoX that made it such a great game for teaming.  I've heard the "classless" argument, but I don't buy that - CoV was pretty much like CO in terms of everyone being pretty much able to dish out damage, take it, and mitigate it, and the teaming effect in CoV was simply "steamrollering", which is plenty fun for a team.  I guess it's that the incentives aren't right in CO.  Some things have improved a wee bit (like difficulty scaling having been introduced), so hopefully they'll get the teaming sorted out at some point.

But even if they didn't, this is a good game to have on rotation - every time you play it again, the combat system is like a breath of fresh air, fun and fast-paced, and the build system is deep enough, and quirky enough, to get your teeth into.

You hit the nail on the head.  :)  It's a great MMO if you just want to get in for a month, quest, level up, do some PvP scenarios, etc., just don't look to team very often.  Only a select few harder missions have teaming involved, and even those can sometimes be solo'd.  This game is a lot like WoW, quest-wise; most people just solo until they want to do a dungeon or pvp scenario.  Otherwise, teaming is dead.  Unlike WoW, again I have to agree, the combat is unbelievably dynamic and exciting.  I find myself getting 2 or 3 levels in one session, never having quested all day.  I just took on hordes of zombies in the zombie apocalypse pvp scenario, or got into a cage fight 5v5.  It's like the best parts of Warhammer PvP plus WoW-style questing.

 

What I think Champions Online (and Warhammer Online, since I mentioned it, lol) need is SUBSCRIBERS.  The reason WoW dominates is because it has the financial backing to provide new, updated, and amazing content regularly.  Warhammer is a better game all-around if you ask me, but doesn't have enough players to fund adding much new content, and for the most part has been slowly shriveling in the shade next to WoW.  City of Heroes/Villains is a team oriented atmosphere, and does it well.  Because it thrives on that closer, more social community, it lasts despite games with more subscribers like WoW, simply through fan loyalty.  This nearly guaranteed stream of income lets CoH/V offer new free expansions every few months, plus small optional micro-transactions to keep things interesting.  If CO and WAR had the subscriptions to back it up, they would easily be tough competition for CoH/V and WoW.  CoH may be good at getting out new power sets and other content into the game, but imagine if a game as free-form as CO got its hands on the kinds of funds the other MMO giants have.  And Warhammer, look at how many races aren't playable yet, how many troops in the tabletop game haven't been represented yet... that's easily a dozen WoW expansions of content.  But it all comes down to "who has the money to accomplish it?" and frankly... not CO and WAR.  :-/

 Can't disagree with that. For me it is a great game because I tend to get bored of ANY MMO for more than 10 hours a week no matter how much content there is, so I tend to have 2 or 3 subs going at any time. At that rate, they are feeding content at the rate I consume it. But for the gamers with a lot of time, who like to devote it to one game, I'm sure it would feel lacking.

Originally posted by Quizar1973

Ok...When Champions Online first came out of Beta And went Live...I was tottally Against it 100% cause I thought Cryptic was messin up and wasnt on accedent either....But then I had friends say to me that the game got better and Cryptic actually took time and listened to what people want and did it in Champions. Well of corse I told them No way...Didnt happen....But.....Then I went home and tried it...And i have to say..I have changed my whole opinion On Cryptic and the Champions Online MMORPG...I got back on and to my suprise it was 100% better than what it was right after the Live release...I know people Will say mean things here about this post but I rather dont care cause I see it for myself....I just wondered why people still have the Hate for the game??  Cause it has changed for the better and that tells me Cryptic is trying to work with the Gamers....

The dots are making me blind!

---

Originally posted by Chessack
COH has so much content (even leaving aside the user-made stuff) that you now can't play it all on a single character on a single play-through.

---

Nonsense. I'm really tired of hearing this "more content" stuff.

Yes, at any given level CO only gives you 1 or 2 opportunities to kill the boss, kill all, or click 5 glowies. You can choose one, the other, or do both.

CoX, otoh, gives you 10 different opportunities. Big deal. It's still kill the boss, kill all, or click 5 glowies. You just have a choice of graphics, potentially.

It's just a new coat of paint on the same-old, same-old.

FWIW, I find champs missions to have a bit more oomph to them; just a touch more than click the glowie or kill all, than CoX. Not much, but occasionally something a bit more interesting.

-Jeff

I was in the beta for champions,  reached max level a couple times, and wanted them to make a number of changes along with a large number of the community, but they never listened.

I did not buy the game on launch,  but ended up buying it for 10 dollars off of steam a couple months later.  I quit shortly after.  About a month ago I was looking for a game to jump back into, so I resubbed to CO.  I played through the game up to MI,  I was amazed I got that far.  The combat is just so simply 1 note.  The idea is good, but the execution STILL between the melee and ranged disparity though better, still exists.  PvP is and always has been a joke.   You don't need a single skill after about your mid 20s depending on the skill set chosen.    Endurance builders never made sense even in Beta,  but its their star mechanic.  The game always touted there was no auto attack,  yet there was an auto attack from the first day I played the game.

The content was dreadfully shallow and the best Cryptic could do was add paid content packs within their first 6 months of launch.  

I'll be the first to say CO is a good game,  at least for what I paid for it.  10 Dollars,  and a month of your time before you reach burn out.  theres nothing to keep you going except building alts and going through the light content.   Overall though the game is just unbalanced, and gets boring very quickly for anyone that chances to play it for more than an hour a day.  If this game was on a console, I'd chance that I'd play it longer with my xbox live friends,  but it falls dreadfully short as a long term PC title for me.

Originally posted by jaif

 

---

Originally posted by Chessack
COH has so much content (even leaving aside the user-made stuff) that you now can't play it all on a single character on a single play-through.

---

 

Nonsense. I'm really tired of hearing this "more content" stuff.

Yes, at any given level CO only gives you 1 or 2 opportunities to kill the boss, kill all, or click 5 glowies. You can choose one, the other, or do both.

CoX, otoh, gives you 10 different opportunities. Big deal. It's still kill the boss, kill all, or click 5 glowies. You just have a choice of graphics, potentially.

It's just a new coat of paint on the same-old, same-old.

FWIW, I find champs missions to have a bit more oomph to them; just a touch more than click the glowie or kill all, than CoX. Not much, but occasionally something a bit more interesting.

-Jeff

 True but some people like to read the text and like it to be a new story.

Originally posted by jaif

 

---

Originally posted by Chessack

COH has so much content (even leaving aside the user-made stuff) that you now can't play it all on a single character on a single play-through.

---

Nonsense. I'm really tired of hearing this "more content" stuff.

Yes, at any given level CO only gives you 1 or 2 opportunities to kill the boss, kill all, or click 5 glowies. You can choose one, the other, or do both.

CoX, otoh, gives you 10 different opportunities. Big deal. It's still kill the boss, kill all, or click 5 glowies. You just have a choice of graphics, potentially.

It's just a new coat of paint on the same-old, same-old.

FWIW, I find champs missions to have a bit more oomph to them; just a touch more than click the glowie or kill all, than CoX. Not much, but occasionally something a bit more interesting.

-Jeff

I play CoX, CO, Warhammer, and WoW, as well as tons of other non-MMO games, and I hear this argument a lot about CoH.  People always complain it only has killing or clicking missions.  My counter to this is: What does WoW have?  What does any other MMO have?

Click Glowies:
CoX: Glowie clicking
WoW: Click X amount of glowies/plants/mission objects

Kill a Set Number of Enemies:
CoX: Kill X amount of this enemy in [zone name here]
WoW: Kill X amount of this enemy in [area listed here]

Kill Boss(es):
CoX: Kill Boss in this instanced map
WoW: Kill Boss(es) in this instance that is always the same every time you load it


Kill All/Tons:
CoX: Kill all enemies
WoW: Kill as many enemies as it takes to collect the desired amount of items from them
(Ok, not entirely the same, but both are kill tons of stuff until the mission says done, which could take a while)

Delivery Quests:
CoX: Go talk to contact way over in that zone to tell them something I could easily call them about
WoW: Deliver this package of bug testicles to someone who will take about 15-20 minutes to get to

Escort Quests:
CoX: Lead [character name here] out of the mission to safety (or kidnap them if you are a villain)
WoW: Lead someone out of a dangerous area to safety

My point is, all MMOs and most RPGs with any sort of quest system have the same set-up.  There are only so many possible mission ideas.  The only difference between WoW/CO and CoX missions is the fact that WoW and CO de-instanced all but their dungeon style missions.  CoH uses mostly "door missions" or instances.  The downside to instanced missions is that some people see them as repetitive, whereas in WoW they feel the missions are more different just because the paint is changed every time (instead of click glowies in a jungle, it's click glowies in a desert).

The downside to de-instanced missions is that now someone else can come and kill all the bugs around so you can't collect enough testicles, then when you finally do, you run back to the guy who wants them delivered only to find a lvl 80 rogue has killed him and you have to hide and wait for 10 minutes while the contact respawns, hoping the rogue still isn't around to kill him all over again.  Then you deliver the bug testicles a half hour later.  :)

Now think back to other RPGs, like Diablo 2.  Kill bosses, kill all, collect items, talk to someone/deliver items, activate all clickable map whatsits.  It's just how RPGs work.  FPS games even have these, albeit fewer total: kill all, kill boss, collect items/activate glowies (in some FPS games like Bioshock), escort/save some people.  FPS games tend to be lacking delivery missions, but that's still the same general set of mission objectives.  What I'm trying to say is that if an MMO seems to have stale mission selection, it's only because game developers the world over have refused to take it a step farther, but really, what else CAN they ask us to do?

Originally posted by maskedweasel

I did not buy the game on launch,  but ended up buying it for 10 dollars off of steam a couple months later.  I quit shortly after.  About a month ago I was looking for a game to jump back into, so I resubbed to CO.  I played through the game up to MI,  I was amazed I got that far.  The combat is just so simply 1 note.  The idea is good, but the execution STILL between the melee and ranged disparity though better, still exists.  PvP is and always has been a joke.   You don't need a single skill after about your mid 20s depending on the skill set chosen.    Endurance builders never made sense even in Beta,  but its their star mechanic.  The game always touted there was no auto attack,  yet there was an auto attack from the first day I played the game.

This sounds more like the learning curve issue I mentioned in an earlier post.  No offense, but if that is your impression of the game, you hadn't gotten it down yet.  The combat is very similar to WoW warriors.  You build up energy and expend it on better moves.  Warhammer Disciples of Khane and Warrior Priests use this mechanic as well.  Your energy builder is mainly used like auto-attacks, but with purpose rather than mindless weak damage to fill in the gaps between other abilities like in WoW/Warhammer.  You also have other methods of building energy, be it a passive ability, bonus to another move, or especially blocking, one of the best mechanics the game added (albeit a tad clumsily).  It's the only game where blocking, like attacking, is an active player choice that can be used to great effect.  Learning when to block is the difference between soloing 3+ player missions and dying in standard minion fights.  Blocking, unless you are a DPS build, doesn't give you energy, to keep DPS players from tanking much.  Instead, their offensive moves give more energy.

My best character is a melee character.  He can tank 4 other players at once, while still killing them one at a time.  With the advent of the Brawler role option, which is the melee version of the Avenger (which is now ranged DPS, not just all DPS), melee people can immobilize and mez you a LOT.  They also tend to get better secondary effects to their attacks.  Try fighting a might character and you'll rarely be on your feet.  Fight a martial artist and you'll be hard-pressed to land a solid hit with all his passive dodge/avoid bonuses.  Psi-blades do unbelievable damage.  Melee and range are not as imbalanced as you think.  Plus, melee energy builders build more energy and do more damage, since people can run from them easier.

Also, there is such a variety of moves that combat is far more complex than most MMOs, and you never know what someone will be coming at you with because of the custom build system.  It's far from one-note.  The trick is to have a balance of survival methods and good attacks.  Most people in PvP use teleport and self-heals a lot, but that's like being mad that someone in WoW uses stealth with their rogue while having tons of potions.  It's just how PvP goes.

Originally posted by AgentForest

Originally posted by maskedweasel

I did not buy the game on launch,  but ended up buying it for 10 dollars off of steam a couple months later.  I quit shortly after.  About a month ago I was looking for a game to jump back into, so I resubbed to CO.  I played through the game up to MI,  I was amazed I got that far.  The combat is just so simply 1 note.  The idea is good, but the execution STILL between the melee and ranged disparity though better, still exists.  PvP is and always has been a joke.   You don't need a single skill after about your mid 20s depending on the skill set chosen.    Endurance builders never made sense even in Beta,  but its their star mechanic.  The game always touted there was no auto attack,  yet there was an auto attack from the first day I played the game.

This sounds more like the learning curve issue I mentioned in an earlier post.  No offense, but if that is your impression of the game, you hadn't gotten it down yet.  The combat is very similar to WoW warriors.  You build up energy and expend it on better moves.  Warhammer Disciples of Khane and Warrior Priests use this mechanic as well.  Your energy builder is mainly used like auto-attacks, but with purpose rather than mindless weak damage to fill in the gaps between other abilities like in WoW/Warhammer.  You also have other methods of building energy, be it a passive ability, bonus to another move, or especially blocking, one of the best mechanics the game added (albeit a tad clumsily).  It's the only game where blocking, like attacking, is an active player choice that can be used to great effect.  Learning when to block is the difference between soloing 3+ player missions and dying in standard minion fights.  Blocking, unless you are a DPS build, doesn't give you energy, to keep DPS players from tanking much.  Instead, their offensive moves give more energy.

 

My best character is a melee character.  He can tank 4 other players at once, while still killing them one at a time.  With the advent of the Brawler role option, which is the melee version of the Avenger (which is now ranged DPS, not just all DPS), melee people can immobilize and mez you a LOT.  They also tend to get better secondary effects to their attacks.  Try fighting a might character and you'll rarely be on your feet.  Fight a martial artist and you'll be hard-pressed to land a solid hit with all his passive dodge/avoid bonuses.  Psi-blades do unbelievable damage.  Melee and range are not as imbalanced as you think.  Plus, melee energy builders build more energy and do more damage, since people can run from them easier.

 

Also, there is such a variety of moves that combat is far more complex than most MMOs, and you never know what someone will be coming at you with because of the custom build system.  It's far from one-note.  The trick is to have a balance of survival methods and good attacks.  Most people in PvP use teleport and self-heals a lot, but that's like being mad that someone in WoW uses stealth with their rogue while having tons of potions.  It's just how PvP goes.

 Yeah, the complexity is what keeps me playing. had a good laugh with a friend that dueled me the other day. We were all basically sitting around in an impromptu fight club, some switching toons. He saw me duel someone (where we just had a melee wack a mole) and then challenged me. After I two shotted him out of the sky from 80 feet or so, he said "lol I thought you were a might toon and I could just range you." Its very easy to be a 2 or 5 trick pony.

Originally posted by AgentForest

 

Originally posted by jaif

 

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Originally posted by Chessack

COH has so much content (even leaving aside the user-made stuff) that you now can't play it all on a single character on a single play-through.

---

Nonsense. I'm really tired of hearing this "more content" stuff.

Yes, at any given level CO only gives you 1 or 2 opportunities to kill the boss, kill all, or click 5 glowies. You can choose one, the other, or do both.

CoX, otoh, gives you 10 different opportunities. Big deal. It's still kill the boss, kill all, or click 5 glowies. You just have a choice of graphics, potentially.

It's just a new coat of paint on the same-old, same-old.

FWIW, I find champs missions to have a bit more oomph to them; just a touch more than click the glowie or kill all, than CoX. Not much, but occasionally something a bit more interesting.

-Jeff

I play CoX, CO, Warhammer, and WoW, as well as tons of other non-MMO games, and I hear this argument a lot about CoH.  People always complain it only has killing or clicking missions.  My counter to this is: What does WoW have?  What does any other MMO have?

Click Glowies:
CoX: Glowie clicking
WoW: Click X amount of glowies/plants/mission objects

Kill a Set Number of Enemies:
CoX: Kill X amount of this enemy in [zone name here]
WoW: Kill X amount of this enemy in [area listed here]

Kill Boss(es):
CoX: Kill Boss in this instanced map
WoW: Kill Boss(es) in this instance that is always the same every time you load it


Kill All/Tons:
CoX: Kill all enemies
WoW: Kill as many enemies as it takes to collect the desired amount of items from them
(Ok, not entirely the same, but both are kill tons of stuff until the mission says done, which could take a while)

Delivery Quests:
CoX: Go talk to contact way over in that zone to tell them something I could easily call them about
WoW: Deliver this package of bug testicles to someone who will take about 15-20 minutes to get to

Escort Quests:
CoX: Lead [character name here] out of the mission to safety (or kidnap them if you are a villain)
WoW: Lead someone out of a dangerous area to safety

My point is, all MMOs and most RPGs with any sort of quest system have the same set-up.  There are only so many possible mission ideas.  The only difference between WoW/CO and CoX missions is the fact that WoW and CO de-instanced all but their dungeon style missions.  CoH uses mostly "door missions" or instances.  The downside to instanced missions is that some people see them as repetitive, whereas in WoW they feel the missions are more different just because the paint is changed every time (instead of click glowies in a jungle, it's click glowies in a desert).

The downside to de-instanced missions is that now someone else can come and kill all the bugs around so you can't collect enough testicles, then when you finally do, you run back to the guy who wants them delivered only to find a lvl 80 rogue has killed him and you have to hide and wait for 10 minutes while the contact respawns, hoping the rogue still isn't around to kill him all over again.  Then you deliver the bug testicles a half hour later.  :)

Now think back to other RPGs, like Diablo 2.  Kill bosses, kill all, collect items, talk to someone/deliver items, activate all clickable map whatsits.  It's just how RPGs work.  FPS games even have these, albeit fewer total: kill all, kill boss, collect items/activate glowies (in some FPS games like Bioshock), escort/save some people.  FPS games tend to be lacking delivery missions, but that's still the same general set of mission objectives.  What I'm trying to say is that if an MMO seems to have stale mission selection, it's only because game developers the world over have refused to take it a step farther, but really, what else CAN they ask us to do?

 So fundementally you are correct. If you are player who runs from mission to mission to rush to level cap this is all very true.  The difference is in the lore and dialogue. Both CO and COX have good story lines. If you read the missions for CO they are well done and have lots of funny pop culture references, etc. I mean, until something revolutionary happens you can only slice and dice fantasy/ Super hero MMOs so many ways.

I do think the fast paced combat in CO is more appealing TO ME than the tactical (you go, then I go) slower paced combat of COX.

---

My point is, all MMOs and most RPGs with any sort of quest system have the same set-up.  There are only so many possible mission ideas.  The only difference between WoW/CO and CoX missions is the fact that WoW and CO de-instanced all but their dungeon style missions.  CoH uses mostly "door missions" or instances.  The downside to instanced missions is that some people see them as repetitive, whereas in WoW they feel the missions are more different just because the paint is changed every time (instead of click glowies in a jungle, it's click glowies in a desert).

---

In WoW and most other games of its ilk, it's not the text or the glowies you click, it's about raids, solving puzzles, and getting better gear to show for it.  Note that the "puzzles" are not rubick's cubes and such, they are figuring out socially and tactically how to conquer ever more increasing challenges in the raid environment.  How do you get the right mix of people on your team?  How do you get them geared so they can all participate? How do you share the spoils?  How do you beat this particular boss with this choice of players?

That's not my personal cup of tea, but I appreciate the depth of that game.  It can be engrossing and fun for those who get involved.  At that point, the fresh coats of paint do make a difference, but it's the icing, not the cake.
Other game have other end-games (e.g. eve, DAoC).  I won't go into depth because most readers know them, but those PvP endgames were successful as well (and still are, to some degree).
 
So the problem with CoX and CO is not that one has a few extra story lines.  That's not a big deal.  The problem is that neither game has much of a metagame, so they rely entirely on their gameplay and customization (both powers and costumes) to sell.
 
Finally, please don't read me as a "hater".  I had fun with CoX, and I'm having fun with CO right now.  But a bit of extra text to read and a few extra graphics really isn't that big of a deal.  Until there's more purpose, it's just more repetition.

-Jeff

Originally posted by AgentForest

Originally posted by maskedweasel

I did not buy the game on launch,  but ended up buying it for 10 dollars off of steam a couple months later.  I quit shortly after.  About a month ago I was looking for a game to jump back into, so I resubbed to CO.  I played through the game up to MI,  I was amazed I got that far.  The combat is just so simply 1 note.  The idea is good, but the execution STILL between the melee and ranged disparity though better, still exists.  PvP is and always has been a joke.   You don't need a single skill after about your mid 20s depending on the skill set chosen.    Endurance builders never made sense even in Beta,  but its their star mechanic.  The game always touted there was no auto attack,  yet there was an auto attack from the first day I played the game.

This sounds more like the learning curve issue I mentioned in an earlier post.  No offense, but if that is your impression of the game, you hadn't gotten it down yet.  The combat is very similar to WoW warriors.  You build up energy and expend it on better moves.  Warhammer Disciples of Khane and Warrior Priests use this mechanic as well.  Your energy builder is mainly used like auto-attacks, but with purpose rather than mindless weak damage to fill in the gaps between other abilities like in WoW/Warhammer.  You also have other methods of building energy, be it a passive ability, bonus to another move, or especially blocking, one of the best mechanics the game added (albeit a tad clumsily).  It's the only game where blocking, like attacking, is an active player choice that can be used to great effect.  Learning when to block is the difference between soloing 3+ player missions and dying in standard minion fights.  Blocking, unless you are a DPS build, doesn't give you energy, to keep DPS players from tanking much.  Instead, their offensive moves give more energy.

 

My best character is a melee character.  He can tank 4 other players at once, while still killing them one at a time.  With the advent of the Brawler role option, which is the melee version of the Avenger (which is now ranged DPS, not just all DPS), melee people can immobilize and mez you a LOT.  They also tend to get better secondary effects to their attacks.  Try fighting a might character and you'll rarely be on your feet.  Fight a martial artist and you'll be hard-pressed to land a solid hit with all his passive dodge/avoid bonuses.  Psi-blades do unbelievable damage.  Melee and range are not as imbalanced as you think.  Plus, melee energy builders build more energy and do more damage, since people can run from them easier.

 

Also, there is such a variety of moves that combat is far more complex than most MMOs, and you never know what someone will be coming at you with because of the custom build system.  It's far from one-note.  The trick is to have a balance of survival methods and good attacks.  Most people in PvP use teleport and self-heals a lot, but that's like being mad that someone in WoW uses stealth with their rogue while having tons of potions.  It's just how PvP goes.

I had it down before most people even played the game. Its not hard to grasp.  Read my initial review of champions once the NDA was lifted http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/247702/A-Beta-Review-for-New-Players-Warning-Long.html

The main difference between characters like the WP and WH was that you still had skills you COULD use before your end builder, and it didn't disappear just seconds after the battle was over.  The whole endurance system is flawed.  You get many great skills, but most of them you don't get to start out with, you get to peg at them with a measly end builder first.

Eventually with many classes you can remove the end builder,  but its just rinse and repeat.  The travel powers are great because they're varied,  but some of them just aren't prudent for some of the areas,  and even worse for PvP - especially at the lower levels.   Melee and Ranged balance has gotten "better" but its only because they had to change the game drastically with their new melee rage or whatever they call it, technique.   Cryptic has been spending a lot of time trying to balance the skills, but its worthless to even try with their cherry picking system.  They should have created a solely PvE game, then try and balance PvP and change the powers the way they did. 

I bet I could hop in to PvP even now and see at least a few FOTM builds with players utlizing specific combinations that increase their chance of success 10 fold.

In the end it doesn't matter,  the game is very one-note.  You  have tap attacks, charged attacks, single shot, and aoe, and everything else is minor variations of knockback, heal, DoT.  You end up just spamming whatever one works for your situation in PvE,  and that leaves you with only needing a few attacks and a passive.  Everything else is pretty much fluff that looks different to accomplish the same thing.   Cherry picking powers sounded like a great idea,  until they realized people wanted some sort of balance, and they had just thrown it out the window.  They've been trying to fix it ever since.  If the combat didn't get so boring after a couple weeks, I may even continue resubbing every now and then,  but the last time I resubbed I barely logged in at all after the first week.  

The learning curve on this game is next to nil once you learn the ebb and flow of the end builder or your "classes" substitution for it.  Everything else just gets tedious.  The game is great for first timers or casuals that are looking for a PvE experience with more "action oriented" combat.   It holds no sway in the mainstream MMO market.  CoH runs circles around it as far as longevity and content is concerned, with its major difference being the combat, and the dated graphics.  

We'll see what happens when DCUO launches,  but I have a feeling CO won't suddenly get a resurgence of players.