Originally posted by Trowa_Barton

And you know that champions online is base one the Pen and paper RPG right?

http://www.herogames.com/productsChampions.htm

That was supposed to be the case.  In the end, all they did was use the lore.  They left the concept and intent of the game mechanics to pretty much rot.

Had they cracked open the main book, they'd have noticed that there's very little about costumes and a WHOLE lot about custom powers.  The main book allowed you to create whatever kind of comic universe you wanted; you didn't have to use the Millenium City lore.  It didn't matter.  The game mechanics were the CORE of the PnP, not the lore.

Not that that disagrees with you given the context of your reply, it's just a sore spot for me how they handled the most important concept behind the PnP game.

Originally posted by Robsolf

 

 

And... 7 years ago, a game called Freedom Force was made, where you could punch a guy and they'd take falling damage from the knockback... even more if they hit a building, AND if it did enough damage, that building could fall in on them!

 

Now, 7 years later, the tech isn't there to at least put this in instances?  I understand the outside persistent world being an issue, but instances are set up to be extraordinary events;  areas devoid of innocents where you can take the kid gloves off and knock the baddies into next week!

 

Yeah, this is something I miss.

Back in the day of playing PnP Villains and Vigilantes you needed a degree in calculus to work this out, but it was a good addition. I'm waiting to see which IP utilises this first.

And that's what progammable calculators were for.

Originally posted by X-Porter

Originally posted by Robsolf

 

 

And... 7 years ago, a game called Freedom Force was made, where you could punch a guy and they'd take falling damage from the knockback... even more if they hit a building, AND if it did enough damage, that building could fall in on them!

 

Now, 7 years later, the tech isn't there to at least put this in instances?  I understand the outside persistent world being an issue, but instances are set up to be extraordinary events;  areas devoid of innocents where you can take the kid gloves off and knock the baddies into next week!

 

 

Yeah, this is something I miss.

Back in the day of playing PnP Villains and Vigilantes you needed a degree in calculus to work this out, but it was a good addition. I'm waiting to see which IP utilises this first.

And that's what progammable calculators were for.

If DCO or the Marvel MMO don't do it, we'll be waiting a long time, methinx.

Other than the title and the superhero theme, I haven't seen anything that has got me saying "That's just like Champions" in this game.

I have seen a lot that has had me saying  "That's just like City of Heroes" on the otherhand.

Originally posted by yumpinyimini

It's too bad that Champions Online is so campy.  Its as if Joel Schumacher of 'Batman Forever' fame decided to create an MMO.

Who the hell wants to create a superhero and then run around fighting irradiated hillbillies, robot cowboys, ghost cowboys, and cheesey ice demons.  You can't tell me that this is the best that they could have come up with.  It's just too damned silly and Saturday morning cartoonish.

Now if this stuff is your cup of tea, well..more power to ya brother!  I'm not against anyone else enjoying the game and I'm not telling anyone else to drop Champs either.  I'm just venting..and I wouldn't have cancelled my subscription if the content wasn't so silly and childish.

anyone have the right to voice their opinion but your oponion is damn silly to judge a game by its theme. "childish?" "saturday cartoon"

duhhhhh its super hero theme!!!!!

what you expect? elfen lied?

again you judging a game merely by its theme is plain silly and immature judgement.

i dont like porno cause its too sexual!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this probly a troll thread anyway.

Originally posted by Robsolf

CO was good effort, but a badly focused one.

I think that is the core problem.

CoX had a running thread for years discussing all the costume additions players wanted.  It's like the initial design team saw that thread and said "see!  this is the most important thing players want!".

Well, of course players are going to constantly come up with suggestions for new costumes.  And of course players are going to love a tool that lets them dress up their avatars.  

But at the end of the day the gameplay is what is truely important, as that is what players spend that vast majority of their time with.  And this seems to have gotten lost in CO's development, particularly in regards to CoX's greatest strength which is accessible teamplay.  Heck, I prefer CoX's combat as well.

So yes, in my opinion the powers-that-be were very far off the mark when they were drafting CO's design; and frankly I was pretty surprised how far off the mark they were (and there is not just "one mark" they could have hit either).

Originally posted by Pinkerl

Originally posted by yumpinyimini

It's too bad that Champions Online is so campy.  Its as if Joel Schumacher of 'Batman Forever' fame decided to create an MMO.

Who the hell wants to create a superhero and then run around fighting irradiated hillbillies, robot cowboys, ghost cowboys, and cheesey ice demons.  You can't tell me that this is the best that they could have come up with.  It's just too damned silly and Saturday morning cartoonish.

Now if this stuff is your cup of tea, well..more power to ya brother!  I'm not against anyone else enjoying the game and I'm not telling anyone else to drop Champs either.  I'm just venting..and I wouldn't have cancelled my subscription if the content wasn't so silly and childish.

 

anyone have the right to voice their opinion but your oponion is damn silly to judge a game by its theme. "childish?" "saturday cartoon"

duhhhhh its super hero theme!!!!!

 

what you expect? elfen lied?

 

again you judging a game merely by its theme is plain silly and immature judgement.

 

i dont like porno cause its too sexual!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

this probly a troll thread anyway.

 

 

To feel a game is to immature, is to be immature? I think you've proven your age.......... but aside from that, yeah CO is way to campy. You have grond running around talking about rival MMO's and Foxbat asking for a gm to move him to another zone right there in the begining to break any sense of immersion. Sure some comics can be a bit campy at times, but never to the degree CO takes it. CO is more like the Tick's universe than it is your standard comics universe.
 

Due to the over the top cheeseyness I quit reading the quests and such to begin with and only do them till level 10. After that I PvP level my toons.

Least I still have DCUO to look forward to, if that Superhero MMO flops then it's off to a scifi or fantasy one. No biggy really, just wish more effort and less cheese went in to making CO lol.

Apparently the most important part of CO is the costume creator, nothing more.

Id have to agree with Zollen, the costume creator is all thats left. The Pvp and pve were fun at one point but no longer seem to be an interest. Maybe with the upcoming expansions theyll release something that will pull everybody back in.

Originally posted by deviladvent

Still have more than 1 month and cant even force my self to play and use the free recton...

well there isnt anything to do other than random BGs with broken powers.. and world it self is small and always giving the single player feeling to me ...

i dont care really .. i've played for almost 2 month and iam not feeling sorry but this game is one of those that i wouldnt go back even after 1 year. having unlimited fun with Borderlands and after that its time for Dragon age.

This pretty much sums it up for me too. I would say I got my moneys worth entertainment wise. I don't feel ripped off or anything, but CO is just plain boring the snot outta me at this point.

No ill will or hard feelings about the game it has just lost its umph for me.

Originally posted by yumpinyimini

It's too bad that Champions Online is so campy.  Its as if Joel Schumacher of 'Batman Forever' fame decided to create an MMO.

Who the hell wants to create a superhero and then run around fighting irradiated hillbillies, robot cowboys, ghost cowboys, and cheesey ice demons.  You can't tell me that this is the best that they could have come up with.  It's just too damned silly and Saturday morning cartoonish.

Now if this stuff is your cup of tea, well..more power to ya brother!  I'm not against anyone else enjoying the game and I'm not telling anyone else to drop Champs either.  I'm just venting..and I wouldn't have cancelled my subscription if the content wasn't so silly and childish.

Possibly the least relevant reason I could imagine for quitting the game. They remained true to their I.P, injected some humour. For me the enemies/NPCs/Zones are some of Champions best aspects.

I quit personally because they made everything "soloable" which essentially killed any reason to be in a team longer than 1 mission. Left with a server full of wandering nomads. Hugely powerful and very unique nomads, but still.

Originally posted by MrWrithe

Originally posted by yumpinyimini

It's too bad that Champions Online is so campy.  Its as if Joel Schumacher of 'Batman Forever' fame decided to create an MMO.

Who the hell wants to create a superhero and then run around fighting irradiated hillbillies, robot cowboys, ghost cowboys, and cheesey ice demons.  You can't tell me that this is the best that they could have come up with.  It's just too damned silly and Saturday morning cartoonish.

Now if this stuff is your cup of tea, well..more power to ya brother!  I'm not against anyone else enjoying the game and I'm not telling anyone else to drop Champs either.  I'm just venting..and I wouldn't have cancelled my subscription if the content wasn't so silly and childish.

 

Possibly the least relevant reason I could imagine for quitting the game. They remained true to their I.P, injected some humour. For me the enemies/NPCs/Zones are some of Champions best aspects.

I quit personally because they made everything "soloable" which essentially killed any reason to be in a team longer than 1 mission. Left with a server full of wandering nomads. Hugely powerful and very unique nomads, but still.

Was leveling up my gunman and realized the same thing... got bored and quit, and went back to Hellgate singplayer :/
 

Let's all cross our fingers and hope that TERA will pull us through this MMORPG "DARK AGES" (about the best thing I can call this period of time where the market if flooded by a multitude of MMO's that just don't seem to cut the mustard).

Originally posted by hidden1

Originally posted by MrWrithe

Originally posted by yumpinyimini

It's too bad that Champions Online is so campy.  Its as if Joel Schumacher of 'Batman Forever' fame decided to create an MMO.

Who the hell wants to create a superhero and then run around fighting irradiated hillbillies, robot cowboys, ghost cowboys, and cheesey ice demons.  You can't tell me that this is the best that they could have come up with.  It's just too damned silly and Saturday morning cartoonish.

Now if this stuff is your cup of tea, well..more power to ya brother!  I'm not against anyone else enjoying the game and I'm not telling anyone else to drop Champs either.  I'm just venting..and I wouldn't have cancelled my subscription if the content wasn't so silly and childish.

 

Possibly the least relevant reason I could imagine for quitting the game. They remained true to their I.P, injected some humour. For me the enemies/NPCs/Zones are some of Champions best aspects.

I quit personally because they made everything "soloable" which essentially killed any reason to be in a team longer than 1 mission. Left with a server full of wandering nomads. Hugely powerful and very unique nomads, but still.

Was leveling up my gunman and realized the same thing... got bored and quit, and went back to Hellgate singplayer :/
 

Let's all cross our fingers and hope that TERA will pull us through this MMORPG "DARK AGES" (about the best thing I can call this period of time where the market if flooded by a multitude of MMO's that just don't seem to cut the mustard).

Indeed. Let's hope that the impending end of WoW's lengthy golden age doesn't also signal the end of the genre.

Bringing up Wertham et al is irrelevant to the superhero genre, those were out and out  horror and sex comics.  The darkest  and perviest things in the Golden Age, e.g. Batman and Wonder Woman, were still camper than the equivalent today.  They did not take themselves "seriously" or attempt to be "realistic". 

There was some bleed-through to the superhero genre after Wertham wrt worries about scantily-clad superheroines and possible homosexuality re. "sidekicks" etc., but the spotlight would never have turned on to superhero comics alone if it hadn't been for the brouhaha re. the horror and sex comics of the 50s.  In fact, the reason for the rise of the horror/sex comics was the decline in popularity of the superhero genre from its heyday in the 40s.  (Publishers tried to be more extreme to attract feverish masturbating teen custom.)  i.e. the horror/sex comics had almost replaced the superhero genre - that's why the Silver Age, which was on the whole (apart from forays into "realism" by Stan Lee and some DC, e.g. Green Arrow) thoroughly camp, was seen as a "rebirth" of the superhero genre.

(Not that I've got anything against the modern "dark/realistic" style either, I'm just pointing out that the style of Champions Online is on point for the style of the majority of superhero comics throughout their existence since the late 30s.)

Let's not forget that "camp" can allow for some subtle and sophisticated humour and commentary, not to mention imagination.  There are some neat twists in some of the CO quest lines, as good as decent quality Silver Age stuff.

Originally posted by baff

Other than the title and the superhero theme, I haven't seen anything that has got me saying "That's just like Champions" in this game.

I have seen a lot that has had me saying  "That's just like City of Heroes" on the otherhand.

I was happy when I met Foxbat in CO, but after I got out of the intro area the game went downhill fast. It didn't help that no matter what my wife and I did, we couldn't optimize the game to run smoothly on our rigs. I eventually determined that the problem might have been severe lag coupled with poor optimization of the engine, and that it just wasn't going to run well on my once-decent two-year old machine.

Originally posted by gurugeorge

Bringing up Wertham et al is irrelevant to the superhero genre, those were out and out  horror and sex comics.  The darkest  and perviest things in the Golden Age, e.g. Batman and Wonder Woman, were still camper than the equivalent today.  They did not take themselves "seriously" or attempt to be "realistic". 

There was some bleed-through to the superhero genre after Wertham wrt worries about scantily-clad superheroines and possible homosexuality re. "sidekicks" etc., but the spotlight would never have turned on to superhero comics alone if it hadn't been for the brouhaha re. the horror and sex comics of the 50s.  In fact, the reason for the rise of the horror/sex comics was the decline in popularity of the superhero genre from its heyday in the 40s.  (Publishers tried to be more extreme to attract feverish masturbating teen custom.)  i.e. the horror/sex comics had almost replaced the superhero genre - that's why the Silver Age, which was on the whole (apart from forays into "realism" by Stan Lee and some DC, e.g. Green Arrow) thoroughly camp, was seen as a "rebirth" of the superhero genre.

(Not that I've got anything against the modern "dark/realistic" style either, I'm just pointing out that the style of Champions Online is on point for the style of the majority of superhero comics throughout their existence since the late 30s.)

Let's not forget that "camp" can allow for some subtle and sophisticated humour and commentary, not to mention imagination.  There are some neat twists in some of the CO quest lines, as good as decent quality Silver Age stuff.

Of course, a major problem with camp in superhero comics is that it's very much "on the out" right now, today. CO is trying to appeal to current players, who may or may not have a strong familiarity with the lengthy history of the comic publishing industry like the old geeks have; in fact most of those I know in their twenties (don't know any teens, sorry) don't even read comics, and are mostly familiar with the genre through film--like Dark Knight and the X-Men trilogy; the films based on superheroes these days are decidedly not camp.

So CO is providing an experience that appeals (IMO, being one of the following) to older men in their late thirties and beyond, who still have some nostalgia for the good old days of comics, whether that was when the CCA dominated everything or later on when the JLA still had Booster Gold and the still- living Blue Beetle. It might also conceivably appeal to the even smaller fan-base of those who played Champions at the tabletop and liked all its iconics, as well. That's not a lot of players, overall.

Originally posted by Tyrranosaur

Of course, a major problem with camp in superhero comics is that it's very much "on the out" right now, today. CO is trying to appeal to current players, who may or may not have a strong familiarity with the lengthy history of the comic publishing industry like the old geeks have; in fact most of those I know in their twenties (don't know any teens, sorry) don't even read comics, and are mostly familiar with the genre through film--like Dark Knight and the X-Men trilogy; the films based on superheroes these days are decidedly not camp.

So CO is providing an experience that appeals (IMO, being one of the following) to older men in their late thirties and beyond, who still have some nostalgia for the good old days of comics, whether that was when the CCA dominated everything or later on when the JLA still had Booster Gold and the still- living Blue Beetle. It might also conceivably appeal to the even smaller fan-base of those who played Champions at the tabletop and liked all its iconics, as well. That's not a lot of players, overall.

 

Young folks don't need to read comics to be familiar with camp superheroes - remember, there are wall-to-wall cartoon kids' shows, many of which have the occasional camp suphero cartoon.  Plus Batman's always being re-run occasionally, and many non-geeks love that.  The Incredibles were pretty camp in that old skool style, albeit sort of Disneyfied.

Incedentally I think the average age in CoX was a bit more to the mature side too.

It's true you need the young 'uns to bulk up the numbers though :D

Camp is not an applicable description of mainstream comics of any era, its actually a conscious misrespresentation of comics to make them an acceptible indulgence to people with preconcieved notions of what they should and should not be enjoying as an 'adult'. The Batman series of the 60's (like some of the earlier serials) was never an accurate representative of comics prior to its release although I concede it's success did have an influence beyond its own lifespan, almost to the destruction of certain titles.

In essence this is the problem with CO, there is no evidence of any real conviction or love of the core theme in its design and content just fails to reinforce or capture that theme at any time. Whereas CoH shares many of CO's gameplay faults it nevertheless feels like a game made and maintained by developers who appear to enjoy their game and the theme it presents - for this reason it becomes more than the sum of its parts - by contrast Champions feels like a game made by the accountants, staple mmo features are developed independently from a generic pool so that when they are assembled into a game there is no unifying mood or style, worse you often get the impression those assembling this mess are more than a little embarrassed or ashamed by the fact that it looks like a comicbook. The few genuine comicbook elements permitted to appear are either so low key as to be negligible or else presented in a way that just makes them a joke, even the much vaunted graphical elements are more a parody of comicstyle, a stereotyped imitation drawn from someones addled childhood recollection. 

Even if we ignore the questionable superficials. World design is profoundly careless and ignorant of either theme or reality, zones are sprawling yet cluttered and inorganic. Equally the realisation of enemies (instanced or not) is exclusively as per 'critters', herding aimlessly they are clearly present for one purpose and one purpose alone - to be culled, there is no suggestion of intellect or style or plan in their location or presence, no sense of life or reason..... in all we have a bunch of sterile, generic, fantasy elements given a lazy reskin - the lack of conviction and investment in the theme contrives to all but extinguish anything that could involve or immerse a player, this is a problem that runs right thorugh the core of the design in turn infecting new content and restraining any hope of expansion in the games overall variety or appeal.

Now thats the most eloquent smackdown of this game that I've seen! 

played 6 weeks of 6month sub, even un-installed it 2 weeks ago and have another month left(cancelled), besides performance issues which seem to have transferred to STO  the main problem with the game is its meant to be a super hero game but you never feel like one, the content is terrible and the zones are not much better, it just feels bland, boring, un-intresting and broken.

I hope SoE are  taking a great interest and transfer the lessons learned to DC online.