Originally posted by 0over0

I've subbed to CoX twice--before and after the Big Nerfs. If that nerf had not happened, then the stuff that's in now--inventions--would've made everyone into a superman. Or inventions would not have been worth putting in.

Did they have that in mind when they did the nerfs? I have no idea--but I think those changes made it easier to put inventions in, and inventions are well worth having in the game. There's not a huge, if any, difference in power with someone adequately decked out in invention enhancements and the old enhancements.

Now, as to content and overall design--yeah, the game is shallow. So are all the other MMOs pretty much because they are made as games, not as virtual worlds. There have not been many virtual game worlds published, and most (I'm not sure if I count EVE as one, honestly) are gone now or so changed as to be gone.

So either way, I think blaming him for everything is a bit of a reach. You can blame him for what he didn't do--but, you know, he had a company to run and other people to answer to.

also, there is a huge difference in bonuses in someone decked out in set IOs (especially the not-so-hard-to-get rares) vs SOs.

The simple fact is, and Posi told everyone this in an interview, all the things that players wanted were shelved because they did not fit Jack's "VISION" for the game. With JAck we would have never had weapon customization. Because Jack didn't want it.

When it comes to Jack Emmert, Jack Emmert is the only one that matters.

I am not even going to give Cryptic (or Jack Emmert) the opportunity to swing the "nerf bat" at me again.

Champions Online may end up being a great game, but I'm a little gunshy after the I4-6 game mechanics changes in CoX.

Nerfs are one thing; but when you change multiple game mechanics across the board that affect the way every and all archetypes are played about a year after release, it hurts.

-Decreasing damage across the board (then being forced to lower opponent HP to compensate)

-Decreasing defense across the board (to the point where invulnerable Tanks were a dying breed)

-Travel power suppression (why?)

-Increasing Controller damage (when controllers were established as a support class, not a damage class. Nowadays, a controller is the most fully realized archetype in the game. There is practically nothing they can't do; heal, damage, pets, holds, etc.)

-Failing to make one single beneficial change to the Defender archetype, while they still suffered the overall game mechanic changes (particularly Force Field, whose primary strength was defense).

-Decreasing Blaster damage (while simultaneously doing nothing about how little defense/damage resistance they have, resulting in rapid deaths from the extreme aggro of attacks that failed to kill your opponents.)

They only just recently made actual beneficial changes to Blasters to bring them back to at least useful. (Sorry, I didn't count "Defiance" as useful; no ability that only activates when you are almost dead is useful unless it saves your life, which Defiance rarely did).

-Lowering the effective area/number of opponents affected by Taunt

-Reducing the area of effect (AoE) for Blasters' AoEs

-Capping the effects of Enhancements (after players spent a year developing their character and outfitting them under the existing system) and then failing to make any changes to powers that only use a single enhancement type (like Stamina or Health).

I traded chats with Jack Emmert on many occasions during that period; and even though he conceded that my points about many of the changes coming out were unnecessary, they still proceeded with them.

The worst aspect of many of those changes was that they were made in direct response to the upcoming PvP patch, which a vast majority of CoX players didn't even want and today is probably the most underused portion of the game.

I played CoH from beta through I4 initially. I loved the fact that I could jump into the game and get things accomplished rapidly without investing days trying to form raid groups. I didn't play flavor of the month characters; my only level 50 is a force field/dark defender.

But that wasn't an issue before the changes. Once they lowered defense across the board, it became a major issue. Many classes were affected, but Force Field defenders were probably hit the worst, particularly if you had a dark blast secondary. You just couldn't do enough damage to be effective and you couldn't take as much damage as you used to.

The invention system has somewhat negated the worst effects of "enhancement diversification" (probably one of most poorly conceived and implemented changes they made) but then it forces you to do those things that made many other games tedious; farm task forces and grind mobs for invention drops and salvage.

When I first started playing CoH up through I3, I felt like I was a superhero; I planned out my characters and set them up for success. I stood up to the bad guys and mowed them down. After the game changes, I just felt like it was another game.

I re-subscribed just shortly before Jack Emmert stepped down and Positron took over, mainly because my friends had started playing again. Even today though, with all of the changes, multiple respecs and grinding for enhancement combinations, it's still disappointing to log in my FF/DB level 50. In general, if my friends weren't playing, I wouldn't be playing.

If they had taken all of that effort and put it into creating more content, to include the "SUPER SECRET OUT OF COMBAT SYSTEM (SSOCS)" that still doesn't exist today, CoX would be a much better and more rounded game.

So no; I'll check in on Champions Online every once in a while, but I won't put any money into it. I just can't trust someone who is so out of touch with their customer base.

I think he did a good job in catering too the marketed crowd... an exclusively pve game with no gear for most of it's useful life.

That being said, I don't think balance was an initial concern as one player did not directly affect the others... but I feel as though this was a mistaken stance on the issue. 

I also feel as though his team was very slow to fix blatent imbalances and bugs...  I was by far NOT the first fire/fire or fire/ice tank out there, but I still managed to join the flavor of the month club and get one to 50 before they nerfed burn....  I think it may have taken me 3 days...  and like I said I think about 30% of the gaming community at that time had a level 50 fire/fire before they changed burn.

I also agree with the general concensus on this post that their general aim of changes to the game was in a under-powering angle.  Granted this game was one of the first games where a DPS class could solo 15+ mobs that were +3 levels just by alpha-striking... but the systems and rewards were in such a manner that I think it fit the context of the game.  I don't know if that NEEDED changing, but I imagine so... still we have all seen the stone/stone tanks herd 500 wearwolves and powerlevel a team of 8 for the last 2 years... so progress is still very slow.

Lastly, I remember being promised power customization back in beta... yet it wasn't until just recently that this positive change reached the game... yet magically enhancement diversification came out almost over night, and I feel as though that change added no content and was arguably the turning of the tide on this game.

Originally posted by Fion

Anyone who's been playing CoX since launch knows that while initial CoX was very fun (and at this time is also great fun.) Emmert, while he was in control of the game post-release, really messed the game up multiple times with terrible choices and changes that nobody liked, but he thought needed changed because HE didn't like the way some things turned out, no matter how much the players disliked the change.

So now that he's clearly trying to make CoX 2, will he screw the pooch this time from the start, or will he learn that players matter.

Ah, totally off topic but... 3305 local?! That's awesome! Presumably the same clan from old school Anarchy Online? I was in the clan Storm, but I remember some of you guys... Ah, memories.

You may now return to on-topic conversation; sorry!

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

Perhaps JE has learned that copying everything in fantasy MMORPGs isn't necessary, but I'm less than enthused about Cryptic doing Champions Online.    Champions was a superb pen-and-paper system, I have to wonder if they'll remember to use those great game mechanics in their version. 

Cryptic has already stated flat out in multiple place that they will NOT be using the Hero/Champions mechanics in any way shape or form other than as an inspiration.

Everything that they post makes it clearer that the only resemblence that this game will bear to the PnP version is the names of the NPCs.

Hero Games made a huge mistake in selling them the IP for Champions, and I expect that Jack's "Vision"  will destroy any real chance of significant future PnP product sales .

Healers in MMOs:

    There are more than two options with this (include healers as a dominant class or force people to wait 96 hours to recover 4 hps).  Champions, in fact, had a good health point system that wasn't dependent on heals.  Also, CoV didn't have a healing focused class if I remember right.  Simutronic's Dragonrealms also has a good health/non-PC-healer-over-dependence system.  I am waiting cheerfully for MMOs (fantasy ones included) to start dropping healing in its current EQ/WoW form because it is by far the most ridiculous part of those games for me.

CoH Nerfs:

     Apart from my scrapper's Elude super-ability cycling from crap to awesome to mediocre every other month (<=slight exaggeration), I didn't care about any of the nerfs.  The bit where people could bounce from 1-50 in 3 weekends (<=not exaggerating) fighting ninjas (correction: letting fire tanks fight) had to go.  So did the sewer monster ad nauseum.  The parts of the game that trivialized the leveling process for those that knew the right spots/builds made me quit the game for awhile.  Stalkers in PVP made me quit the game for good.  Balance is critical.  Devs should get it right the first time but if they don't, they should fix things FAST or they will probably lose more customers than they keep.  In my case they should have nerfed more, faster.

Originally posted by Fennris

 Stalkers in PVP made me quit the game for good.

Good point.  I came back to try out the PVP.  I was running around with a group of about 4 or 5 heroes, and this stalker comes along (roughly the same level as we were) and takes us all out 1 by 1.   He'd do his alpha strike, finish off the guy, then disappear.  It was by far the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in an MMO. 

They made a superhero game, which basically means they made a game with insanely overpowered characters.  PVP just wasn't in the cards for that game IMO. 

I have high hopes for CO though.  For all that COX screwed up, they did a lot of things right.  If they can change the negatives, and reinforce the positives then this could be an awesome MMO.

Originally posted by Wrymstrum

 

Originally posted by Fennris

 Stalkers in PVP made me quit the game for good.

I have high hopes for CO though.  For all that COX screwed up, they did a lot of things right.  If they can change the negatives, and reinforce the positives then this could be an awesome MMO.

Yes but Emmert had little to do with things that were gotten right. The core of the game was done by the time he had anything to do with development and Emmert was out of the development process when COH started getting better/balanced.

Most of the things that I dislike about COH was put in by Emmert and most of the failed attempts to balance was at the hands of Emmert as well. Nerphing a game for balance is one thing, but the reason that COH has such a bad reputation for it is the ping pong way they did it.

Originally posted by Fion

Anyone who's been playing CoX since launch knows that while initial CoX was very fun (and at this time is also great fun.) Emmert, while he was in control of the game post-release, really messed the game up multiple times with terrible choices and changes that nobody liked, but he thought needed changed because HE didn't like the way some things turned out, no matter how much the players disliked the change.

So now that he's clearly trying to make CoX 2, will he screw the pooch this time from the start, or will he learn that players matter.

To begin with, forums aren't an accurate representation of the playerbase.  You don't know what most people liked or didn't like.  You know what your small circle did, based entirely on anecdotal evidence.  In most MMORPG's, only 1/6 of the playerbase even reads the forums, and a much smaller fraction actually posts.  That fraction who posts tends to represent a very specific minority with a common outlook.  There also tends to be very limited interaction between casual and core gamers inside the game itself.  Don't say the sub numbers back you up, either, because they don't.

I'm not really going to go into details of all I've done, but I've played the game quite a bit myself.  Prior to I7, the release of which happened just after I quit, I had played for more hours than you want to know, gone through essentially all PvE content, had a few max lvl chars, and I had PvP'd extensively with very high KD ratios.  PvP was my favorite activity in the end, aside from hunting down the few remaining badges I needed.

As for the non-ED changes, not all of them were nerfs.  If anything, the power levels of certain powersets tended to swing up and down dramatically.  Sometimes they'd nerf, buff, nerf, and then buff again for good measure.  SR comes to mind for that kind of wild fluctuation.  As for ED, it wasn't crippling, either.  It did change things quite a bit.  It made a few extreme things not possible, but it wasn't nearly as damning as a lot of forumgoers make it out to be.

Most people here have a MMO that they've played to death, and for me, that was CoX.  I also didn't play it like most players.  Honestly, I think that was the problem with the game and how it was balanced.  It was balanced toward people like me.  I'm a powergamer.  Yeah, I've done just about everything legitimately.  Beyond that, I've participated in just about every powerleveling method, including those either borderline or clearly exploits.  I wouldn't even touch a powerset unless I knew there was a significant advantage in it.  Good = sucks to me.  I built characters to win and make things easy for me, not just to fool around.  When I PvP'd, it was with chars I had built specifically for that purpose, and I used each respec to adjust my build to take advantage of the latest changes.

See, every nerf that you can think of which you think was stupid or uncalled for, I know exactly why it was done.  I was probably the reason it was done.  I think that was Jack's mistake.  Powergamers will always be more powerful than everybody else.  If you nerf to bring down powergamers, your nerfs will only really hurt the regular people.  When I say powergamers, I don't mean who somebody who copies a build off a forum or plays around with Hero Builder for a while.  Want to see what I'm talking about?

Accuracy debuff cap: Yeah, this is one of the first that hit me.  It removed one of the ways in which I could be completely invincible when I needed to be.  Sometimes I'd get bored and very slowly kill +5 or higher groups, including bosses, doing this.  No damage.

Regen: I used to have a friend who was regen back before it started getting hit by nerfs.  I think he was banned.  Not really sure why.  Anyway, he used to take me around on my lowbies and level with me.  He mostly liked to street sweep groups with freak tanks in them.  I'll let you guess how many levels higher than him they were.  You're probably thinking +4 or something.  lol at just +4.  This was not even using MoG, by the way.  I'd go into what I'd seen done with that, but you'd probably not like it.

Target cap: You guys might not have noticed this change.  It was to prevent AoE farming.  Some guy mentioned level 50 in three weekends.  Try level 1 to 16 in one second if you have a blaster with you.  Rikti portal farming, huzzah.  I think they eventually fixed this mission, thank God.  Not that it stopped or really slowed powerleveling.  Anyway, it lowered the target cap.  There was one before this nerf, but you could only see it while Rikti portal farming.  I'd tell you just how many enemies plvl'ers would get and kill at once while using this technique, but you probably don't want to know.  Hint: if you're thinking less than a hundred per group, you're too low.  The second objective of this nerf was to prevent permcontrolling.  I'll give you an example.  For those not in the know, the most powerful control ability in the game was fearsome stare just prior to this nerf, though most DD's were too dumb to slot it.  I used to run full party runs on Praetorian AV's.  The MM FF mish was my fave.  I could pretty easily keep entire groups heavily feared even on a full party spawn.  See, when you stacked fear enough, enemies didn't run, and in 95% of cases, didn't even counterattack on hit.  If they did, they'd definitely miss with all the other DD acc debuffs.  It became essentially as good as hold.  The only function of empaths in my party was auras, AB, and CM.  I never even saw a bar drop below 95% for nearly every run.  Fearsomes stare itself was later nerfed on top of the AoE cap to bring it back into line, for this reason.  There are other control methods which involved nearly zero damage all the time on full party spawns, but they become a lot less intuitive to describe, and you'd probably believe me even less if I talked about their use.  All of them were made possible by not capping targets.  The lower target cap was also put in because of the powerset below.

Invul tanks: Invul was invincible in the hands of a good player.  They weren't tough.  They weren't hard to kill.  They were simply invincible.  The only exceptions were very specific AV's or missions which invuls could simply avoid with no penalty.  Case in point: you needed an invul tank to handle Rikti portal runs, and they did easily.  Even when Rikti portals got out of vogue and wolves in a box became the next big thing, it was still one tank taking nearly zero damage from 20+ +3 mobs in a tiny space.

Stalker stealth: This was a buff, but heroes bitched about it a lot, so I'll talk about it.  On Virtue, most stalkers were terrible.  I can count on one hand the ones I couldn't spot easily and kill, and I knew them well, since we'd meet a lot.  The pool of good PvP'ers in Virtue was super small.  Then again, I was spec'd for perception, taking tactics _only_ for that reason on _top_ of my existing perception power, and I would trail the weaker heroes around to use them as stalker bait if I needed to.  Stalker stealth was increased specifically because of characters like mine.  End result?  After the buff, almost nobody else could see them even when they didn't stack stealth that much.

I could seriously go on, but the point is that players like me made the game easy for themselves.  Nothing was really a challenge because we knew all the ways to break things.  If I knew something would be hard for one character, I'd just take another one.  Beyond that, for some reason, Cryptic basically gave plvl'ers a free ride for a long time.  Not that we actually plvl'd anything but our umpteenth alts, since you could get XP super fast just doing missions with a PUG if you knew how to.  I even used to have a friend who ran his own little plvl'ing franchise, charging money to teach his friends how to do it for cash.  Don't think they ever really came down on him.

So I can seriously see why all the nerfs came.  Were they done well?  No, they were stupid.  ED was idiotic.  I know the powers that motivated ED, but they could simply have balanced that by nerfing those specific powers.  Is ED as bad as you think it was?  No.  See, Jack never really cared about you.  By you, I mean people who whine on forums.  You're the minority.  ED was based mostly on metrics, as were all the other major buffs/nerfs.  You know the weird mishmash of enhancements you ended up with on your powers after ED?  That was what the silent majority of chars already had because they didn't build well.  ED's real purpose was to even the field between you and them.  Was that a mistake?  Yeah.  But it didn't cause some mass exodus.  CoX's numbers didn't go up or down drastically after that or any other nerf.  You want to believe they did because that would justify the fact that you can't handle change in a video game, but it's not true.

So is Evil Jack Emmert going to make some mistakes with Champions Online?  Yeah, I'm sure.  I will probably shake my head at some of the dumbassed things that he'll come up with.  Will that kill the game or substantially hurt it?  No.  It'll probably still be a fun game, even if has its ups and downs.

if no one knows coh was alot differnt then u see . before beta .. it was at with classless at mix ... then changed  it .. took 2 more yrs ... but i do like the idea of no at .. with negs to more powers u pick ..