Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Honestly what good is an alt?

An alt is primarily used to travel incognito, with the purpose of ripping people off, taking advantage of them, or otherwise evading responsibility for a set of actions on your main.

• Dissatisfied with your guild?  Roll an alt and join your rivals!
• Need some extra cash?  Roll an alt and make some easy money!
• Want boobs instead of pecs?  Roll an alt and tranny it up!

About the only thing alts have been good for is testing out other character archetypes.  But in upcoming games, as well as games like Darkfall, Entropia, and even Ultima Online (Siege Perilous) alts have been done away with.   This is a good move, by these designers.   One I'd personally like to see repeated.

Hmm, i think more people would agree that the primary purpose of an alt character is to play another archtype....  Consigning its primary purpose to the various other activities you suggest seems to reflect the type of play you immerse yourself in (apparently pvp) or your bias.

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Honestly what good is an alt?

An alt is primarily used to travel incognito, with the purpose of ripping people off, taking advantage of them, or otherwise evading responsibility for a set of actions on your main.

• Dissatisfied with your guild?  Roll an alt and join your rivals!
• Need some extra cash?  Roll an alt and make some easy money!
• Want boobs instead of pecs?  Roll an alt and tranny it up!

About the only thing alts have been good for is testing out other character archetypes.  But in upcoming games, as well as games like Darkfall, Entropia, and even Ultima Online (Siege Perilous) alts have been done away with.   This is a good move, by these designers.   One I'd personally like to see repeated.

Hmm, i think more people would agree that the primary purpose of an alt character is to play another archtype....  Consigning its primary purpose to the various other activities you suggest seems to reflect the type of play you immerse yourself in (apparently pvp) or your bias.

Yes but more games are starting to eliminate the need for that argument by allowing a single character to master all archetypes (Earthrise included). It would be stupid to make an alt to test out new skills when you could just learn them just as fast on your original character.

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Honestly what good is an alt?

An alt is primarily used to travel incognito, with the purpose of ripping people off, taking advantage of them, or otherwise evading responsibility for a set of actions on your main.

• Dissatisfied with your guild?  Roll an alt and join your rivals!
• Need some extra cash?  Roll an alt and make some easy money!
• Want boobs instead of pecs?  Roll an alt and tranny it up!

About the only thing alts have been good for is testing out other character archetypes.  But in upcoming games, as well as games like Darkfall, Entropia, and even Ultima Online (Siege Perilous) alts have been done away with.   This is a good move, by these designers.   One I'd personally like to see repeated.

Hmm, i think more people would agree that the primary purpose of an alt character is to play another archtype....  Consigning its primary purpose to the various other activities you suggest seems to reflect the type of play you immerse yourself in (apparently pvp) or your bias.

Yes but more games are starting to eliminate the need for that argument by allowing a single character to master all archetypes (Earthrise included). It would be stupid to make an alt to test out new skills when you could just learn them just as fast on your original character.

I actually addressed that a bit in theprior post I'll post my 2 reasons here again. 

1.)  It can break immersion when you're capable of simply swapping out skills for whatever you need.  Yes, it works for the Matrix and Dollhouse, because thats the reality they established.  Being able to swap from King conan, mighty battle-axe master to fireball caster seems like a stretch.  It compromises character identity outside of the matrix/dollhouse universes.

2.)  How far do we go down this slippery slope of eliminating player consequences for their actions?  Easing death penalties is one thing but eliminating the implications of character skill/power decisions by allowing unlimited respecs takes it to another level of  the IWIN-button.   Why give someone the choice of taking skills at the expense of not taking others when it can all be undone?  It trivializes the system. 

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Honestly what good is an alt?

An alt is primarily used to travel incognito, with the purpose of ripping people off, taking advantage of them, or otherwise evading responsibility for a set of actions on your main.

• Dissatisfied with your guild?  Roll an alt and join your rivals!
• Need some extra cash?  Roll an alt and make some easy money!
• Want boobs instead of pecs?  Roll an alt and tranny it up!

About the only thing alts have been good for is testing out other character archetypes.  But in upcoming games, as well as games like Darkfall, Entropia, and even Ultima Online (Siege Perilous) alts have been done away with.   This is a good move, by these designers.   One I'd personally like to see repeated.

Hmm, i think more people would agree that the primary purpose of an alt character is to play another archtype....  Consigning its primary purpose to the various other activities you suggest seems to reflect the type of play you immerse yourself in (apparently pvp) or your bias.

Yes but more games are starting to eliminate the need for that argument by allowing a single character to master all archetypes (Earthrise included). It would be stupid to make an alt to test out new skills when you could just learn them just as fast on your original character.

 

I actually addressed that a bit in theprior post I'll post my 2 reasons here again. 

1.)  It can break immersion when you're capable of simply swapping out skills for whatever you need.  Yes, it works for the Matrix and Dollhouse, because thats the reality they established.  Being able to swap from King conan, mighty battle-axe master to fireball caster seems like a stretch.  It compromises character identity outside of the matrix/dollhouse universes.

It doesn't break immersion at all. There is nothing to keep me from learning, in real life, how to use both a pistol and a sniper rifle, and a machine gun, and a rocket launcher, and an assault rifle, and a grenade launcher etc. I can't carry all that at once, so what I can use at any given moment is limited by what I have on me. That's how it works in Earthrise. Maybe that wouldn't make sense in a fantasy setting, but this isn't fantasy. In fact, a sci-fi setting provides much more freedom in this area. Genetic manipulation could for instance, allow to change your physique and intelligence.

2.)  How far do we go down this slippery slope of eliminating player consequences for their actions?  Easing death penalties is one thing but eliminating the implications of character skill/power decisions by allowing unlimited respecs takes it to another level of  the IWIN-button.   Why give someone the choice of taking skills at the expense of not taking others when it can all be undone?  It trivializes the system. 

First of all, you do know that "slippery slope" refers to a logical fallacy right? As for easing death penalties, ER's system is less harsh than say, Darkfall, because you can keep your gear, but it is still harsh overall. You have to pay money to keep those items safe, and part of that money goes to whoever killed you. Next, I don't see how respecs give you an i-win button. I-win buttons exist whether or not you can respec at all.

More importantly, Earthrise does not have respecs! You cannot take skill points out of one thing and put it into another. You must put the time in to learn any skills you want to know. This is very similar to how Eve operates. You cannot use tech 2 frigate skills while piloting a battleship. But you must still learn both, and which you are using is dependent on the gear (or in Eve's case, which ship/mods) you are using.

I voted yes.  I wish Fallen Earth would have went with that there is a major problem with being able to make an alt in a heavy crafting game. It makes people able to do basically anything all by themselves and never rely on the community.

If Earthrise has this feature it might just be enough to make me want to  try it out. I really haven't payed much attention to this game.

No.  I like alts to test out new builds w/ different class/skill combinations.  That's the only way I can find out what suits my play style best.  If the game allows for classless skill leveling like Darkfall than I suppose having an alt is just a moot point... that is unless you want to create a mule... and again it's a moot point if the game offers shared stash bank.

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Honestly what good is an alt?

An alt is primarily used to travel incognito, with the purpose of ripping people off, taking advantage of them, or otherwise evading responsibility for a set of actions on your main.

• Dissatisfied with your guild?  Roll an alt and join your rivals!
• Need some extra cash?  Roll an alt and make some easy money!
• Want boobs instead of pecs?  Roll an alt and tranny it up!

About the only thing alts have been good for is testing out other character archetypes.  But in upcoming games, as well as games like Darkfall, Entropia, and even Ultima Online (Siege Perilous) alts have been done away with.   This is a good move, by these designers.   One I'd personally like to see repeated.

Hmm, i think more people would agree that the primary purpose of an alt character is to play another archtype....  Consigning its primary purpose to the various other activities you suggest seems to reflect the type of play you immerse yourself in (apparently pvp) or your bias.

Yes but more games are starting to eliminate the need for that argument by allowing a single character to master all archetypes (Earthrise included). It would be stupid to make an alt to test out new skills when you could just learn them just as fast on your original character.

 

I actually addressed that a bit in theprior post I'll post my 2 reasons here again. 

1.)  It can break immersion when you're capable of simply swapping out skills for whatever you need.  Yes, it works for the Matrix and Dollhouse, because thats the reality they established.  Being able to swap from King conan, mighty battle-axe master to fireball caster seems like a stretch.  It compromises character identity outside of the matrix/dollhouse universes.

It doesn't break immersion at all. There is nothing to keep me from learning, in real life, how to use both a pistol and a sniper rifle, and a machine gun, and a rocket launcher, and an assault rifle, and a grenade launcher etc. I can't carry all that at once, so what I can use at any given moment is limited by what I have on me. That's how it works in Earthrise. Maybe that wouldn't make sense in a fantasy setting, but this isn't fantasy. In fact, a sci-fi setting provides much more freedom in this area. Genetic manipulation could for instance, allow to change your physique and intelligence.

There's a difference between "it can" and "it doesn't" break immersion.  I went out of my way to state how it could for something like the matrix or dollhouse (sci-fi, which earthrise falls into) and how it wouldn't for conan (fantasy).  I was making a general comment and you decided to narrow it to earthrise before finally conceding that it might not work for fantasy too.  So, you basically spat out a paragraph to agree with me.... Argumentative much?

2.)  How far do we go down this slippery slope of eliminating player consequences for their actions?  Easing death penalties is one thing but eliminating the implications of character skill/power decisions by allowing unlimited respecs takes it to another level of  the IWIN-button.   Why give someone the choice of taking skills at the expense of not taking others when it can all be undone?  It trivializes the system. 

First of all, you do know that "slippery slope" refers to a logical fallacy right? As for easing death penalties, ER's system is less harsh than say, Darkfall, because you can keep your gear, but it is still harsh overall. You have to pay money to keep those items safe, and part of that money goes to whoever killed you. Next, I don't see how respecs give you an i-win button. I-win buttons exist whether or not you can respec at all.

Slippery slope is perfectly acceptable if the premises are logically connected to the conclusions.  Eliminating consequences eventually leads to an iwin button situation.  First, ease the consequences of stupid actions that get you killed.  Next, ease the consequences of the decisions you make specing, allowing you to switch to whatever build you need at a given play session (I want to be a healer.....oh now, no i need to be a melee expert, oh now i need to be  a master thief....instead of dealing with it using the build you chose.)   The iwin buitton is the concept of removing all challenge from a game....

More importantly, Earthrise does not have respecs! You cannot take skill points out of one thing and put it into another. You must put the time in to learn any skills you want to know. This is very similar to how Eve operates. You cannot use tech 2 frigate skills while piloting a battleship. But you must still learn both, and which you are using is dependent on the gear (or in Eve's case, which ship/mods) you are using.

Earthrise again....wow.  So, first of all, in a game other than ER which does not have respecs, if you're attempting to learn everything, all you can ever be is jack of all trades and master of none.  Rather than have alts specialized for tasks by their classes and specs, you're basically claiming to make one character who performs everything at some level of mediocrity.  No you're going to say?  Well then something needs to be compromised in order to be a master at something else. 

"Taking skill points out of one thing and put it into another" as you say is exactly what people are talking about when they say one character can do anything.  I don't know if I can make this any clearer...you have 10 levels: level up fireball to 10 and axe to 0; level up fireball to 5 and axe to 5; level axe to 10 and fireball to 0.  Without alts and/or respecs, you are either mediocre in 2 skills, or a master of one and incapable of another. 

Now, prior to this thread, I really knew nothing about ER and now I know a few tidbits...because the game isn't even out YET.  So, in Earthrise, everyone can master everything eventually.  Wow....so, rather than everyone possibly starting out identical in the game (like most), everyone eventually ends up identical at the end....unspecialized...Yes, I guess you don't need an alt when everyone....is....the same.  That's an untraditional mechanic and I'm willing to concede that to you, as totally unfun as that sounds. ( ' :

 

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by dar_es_balat

Honestly what good is an alt?

An alt is primarily used to travel incognito, with the purpose of ripping people off, taking advantage of them, or otherwise evading responsibility for a set of actions on your main.

• Dissatisfied with your guild?  Roll an alt and join your rivals!
• Need some extra cash?  Roll an alt and make some easy money!
• Want boobs instead of pecs?  Roll an alt and tranny it up!

About the only thing alts have been good for is testing out other character archetypes.  But in upcoming games, as well as games like Darkfall, Entropia, and even Ultima Online (Siege Perilous) alts have been done away with.   This is a good move, by these designers.   One I'd personally like to see repeated.

Hmm, i think more people would agree that the primary purpose of an alt character is to play another archtype....  Consigning its primary purpose to the various other activities you suggest seems to reflect the type of play you immerse yourself in (apparently pvp) or your bias.

Yes but more games are starting to eliminate the need for that argument by allowing a single character to master all archetypes (Earthrise included). It would be stupid to make an alt to test out new skills when you could just learn them just as fast on your original character.

 

I actually addressed that a bit in theprior post I'll post my 2 reasons here again. 

1.)  It can break immersion when you're capable of simply swapping out skills for whatever you need.  Yes, it works for the Matrix and Dollhouse, because thats the reality they established.  Being able to swap from King conan, mighty battle-axe master to fireball caster seems like a stretch.  It compromises character identity outside of the matrix/dollhouse universes.

It doesn't break immersion at all. There is nothing to keep me from learning, in real life, how to use both a pistol and a sniper rifle, and a machine gun, and a rocket launcher, and an assault rifle, and a grenade launcher etc. I can't carry all that at once, so what I can use at any given moment is limited by what I have on me. That's how it works in Earthrise. Maybe that wouldn't make sense in a fantasy setting, but this isn't fantasy. In fact, a sci-fi setting provides much more freedom in this area. Genetic manipulation could for instance, allow to change your physique and intelligence.

There's a difference between "it can" and "it doesn't" break immersion.  I went out of my way to state how it could for something like the matrix or dollhouse (sci-fi, which earthrise falls into) and how it wouldn't for conan (fantasy).  I was making a general comment and you decided to narrow it to earthrise before finally conceding that it might not work for fantasy too.  So, you basically spat out a paragraph to agree with me.... Argumentative much?

Yes...actually. My bad.

2.)  How far do we go down this slippery slope of eliminating player consequences for their actions?  Easing death penalties is one thing but eliminating the implications of character skill/power decisions by allowing unlimited respecs takes it to another level of  the IWIN-button.   Why give someone the choice of taking skills at the expense of not taking others when it can all be undone?  It trivializes the system. 

First of all, you do know that "slippery slope" refers to a logical fallacy right? As for easing death penalties, ER's system is less harsh than say, Darkfall, because you can keep your gear, but it is still harsh overall. You have to pay money to keep those items safe, and part of that money goes to whoever killed you. Next, I don't see how respecs give you an i-win button. I-win buttons exist whether or not you can respec at all.

Slippery slope is perfectly acceptable if the premises are logically connected to the conclusions.  Eliminating consequences eventually leads to an iwin button situation.  First, ease the consequences of stupid actions that get you killed.  Next, ease the consequences of the decisions you make specing, allowing you to switch to whatever build you need at a given play session (I want to be a healer.....oh now, no i need to be a melee expert, oh now i need to be  a master thief....instead of dealing with it using the build you chose.)   The iwin buitton is the concept of removing all challenge from a game....

Slippery slope specifically describes the situation when there is an illogical leap in a chain of reasoning. Here, your slippery slope is assuming that easing some consequences removes all challenge. In most games, I don't have to worry about losing all of my character progress every time I die, but that doesn't mean the game can't be hard. So again, in ER, there is a serious death penalty, and there is no respeccing. If you know a skill, you put in the time to learn it.

More importantly, Earthrise does not have respecs! You cannot take skill points out of one thing and put it into another. You must put the time in to learn any skills you want to know. This is very similar to how Eve operates. You cannot use tech 2 frigate skills while piloting a battleship. But you must still learn both, and which you are using is dependent on the gear (or in Eve's case, which ship/mods) you are using.

Earthrise again....wow.  So, first of all, in a game other than ER which does not have respecs, if you're attempting to learn everything, all you can ever be is jack of all trades and master of none.  Rather than have alts specialized for tasks by their classes and specs, you're basically claiming to make one character who performs everything at some level of mediocrity.  No you're going to say?  Well then something needs to be compromised in order to be a master at something else. 

Yes, Earthrise. Welcome to the Earthrise boards, the place in which we are having this discussion. Why do you see alts as a better alternative to just learning everything on one character? If I play, and take the time to level one of every class, how is that different from playing a game where I can learn everything on one character, but can only use one skill st at a time? Does having to log out and then back in really mean that much to you?

"Taking skill points out of one thing and put it into another" as you say is exactly what people are talking about when they say one character can do anything.  I don't know if I can make this any clearer...you have 10 levels: level up fireball to 10 and axe to 0; level up fireball to 5 and axe to 5; level axe to 10 and fireball to 0.  Without alts and/or respecs, you are either mediocre in 2 skills, or a master of one and incapable of another.

You don't seem to grasp the concept at play here. To use a skill, you must do two things: learn it, and then equip the necessary gear to use it. This is different from traditional games where you have access to all skills you know at any time, you only have access to the small subset made active by your equipped gear. This is no different than having a game with classes where you can have alts (except that you have more flexibility in making your builds).

Now, prior to this thread, I really knew nothing about ER and now I know a few tidbits...because the game isn't even out YET.  So, in Earthrise, everyone can master everything eventually.  Wow....so, rather than everyone possibly starting out identical in the game (like most), everyone eventually ends up identical at the end....unspecialized...Yes, I guess you don't need an alt when everyone....is....the same.  That's an untraditional mechanic and I'm willing to concede that to you, as totally unfun as that sounds. ( ' :

Yes, you can master everything eventually. And in WoW, War, or other such games, I can make an alt for each class. Again, in ER we'll have more flexibility in building your character, but there is no reason to believe that everyone will the same anymore than you could believe that everyone playing WoW is a warrior. For one, if everyone chose the same build, I would just choose a build to counter that one. Besides, preference for different styles alone would drive diversity.

If you would like to actually know about ER instead of rambling about the ills of a game you know nothing about, I can suggest some useful links where you can learn about the game.

Unofficial faq

Question of the Week board

Wiki

I believe it will make the game better becuse it will strenghten the games community. But thats just me.

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

 

2.)  How far do we go down this slippery slope of eliminating player consequences for their actions?  Easing death penalties is one thing but eliminating the implications of character skill/power decisions by allowing unlimited respecs takes it to another level of  the IWIN-button.   Why give someone the choice of taking skills at the expense of not taking others when it can all be undone?  It trivializes the system. 

First of all, you do know that "slippery slope" refers to a logical fallacy right? As for easing death penalties, ER's system is less harsh than say, Darkfall, because you can keep your gear, but it is still harsh overall. You have to pay money to keep those items safe, and part of that money goes to whoever killed you. Next, I don't see how respecs give you an i-win button. I-win buttons exist whether or not you can respec at all.

Slippery slope is perfectly acceptable if the premises are logically connected to the conclusions.  Eliminating consequences eventually leads to an iwin button situation.  First, ease the consequences of stupid actions that get you killed.  Next, ease the consequences of the decisions you make specing, allowing you to switch to whatever build you need at a given play session (I want to be a healer.....oh now, no i need to be a melee expert, oh now i need to be  a master thief....instead of dealing with it using the build you chose.)   The iwin buitton is the concept of removing all challenge from a game....

Slippery slope specifically describes the situation when there is an illogical leap in a chain of reasoning. Here, your slippery slope is assuming that easing some consequences removes all challenge. In most games, I don't have to worry about losing all of my character progress every time I die, but that doesn't mean the game can't be hard. So again, in ER, there is a serious death penalty, and there is no respeccing. If you know a skill, you put in the time to learn it.

My reference to slippery slope is about game design and it's progression towards an iwin button in general.  The original post and poll was asking "would you play A game being unable to create alts" so I'm talking about games and game design. 

More importantly, Earthrise does not have respecs! You cannot take skill points out of one thing and put it into another. You must put the time in to learn any skills you want to know. This is very similar to how Eve operates. You cannot use tech 2 frigate skills while piloting a battleship. But you must still learn both, and which you are using is dependent on the gear (or in Eve's case, which ship/mods) you are using.

Earthrise again....wow.  So, first of all, in a game other than ER which does not have respecs, if you're attempting to learn everything, all you can ever be is jack of all trades and master of none.  Rather than have alts specialized for tasks by their classes and specs, you're basically claiming to make one character who performs everything at some level of mediocrity.  No you're going to say?  Well then something needs to be compromised in order to be a master at something else. 

Yes, Earthrise. Welcome to the Earthrise boards, the place in which we are having this discussion. Why do you see alts as a better alternative to just learning everything on one character? If I play, and take the time to level one of every class, how is that different from playing a game where I can learn everything on one character, but can only use one skill st at a time? Does having to log out and then back in really mean that much to you?

Thank you for that welcome.  I honestly thought I was on the general boards, given the phrasing of the op's question.  It goes along way towards explaining why this dude [you] keeps focusing on Earthrise when talking about a generic question and, hopefully, explaining where I was coming from.  I see alts and caps on learning skills as an important game mechanic that forces you to make decisions about how you will design your character.  The ability to master everything kind of trivializes the process and begs the question, "why bother having it?"  it feels like the ultimate slap-in-the-face timesink.  It's just an opinion.

"Taking skill points out of one thing and put it into another" as you say is exactly what people are talking about when they say one character can do anything.  I don't know if I can make this any clearer...you have 10 levels: level up fireball to 10 and axe to 0; level up fireball to 5 and axe to 5; level axe to 10 and fireball to 0.  Without alts and/or respecs, you are either mediocre in 2 skills, or a master of one and incapable of another.

You don't seem to grasp the concept at play here. To use a skill, you must do two things: learn it, and then equip the necessary gear to use it. This is different from traditional games where you have access to all skills you know at any time, you only have access to the small subset made active by your equipped gear. This is no different than having a game with classes where you can have alts (except that you have more flexibility in making your builds).

I fully understand the concept at play.  Really, mining requires a hammer and doesn't level up your gathering skills when used.  Leveling up your sword skills do not transfer to your hammer.  This isn't original in any way.  Again, the author posed the question about "a" game, not earthrise spcifically, which you kept steering towards and I intentionally separately addressed in the next paragraph.

Now, prior to this thread, I really knew nothing about ER and now I know a few tidbits...because the game isn't even out YET.  So, in Earthrise, everyone can master everything eventually.  Wow....so, rather than everyone possibly starting out identical in the game (like most), everyone eventually ends up identical at the end....unspecialized...Yes, I guess you don't need an alt when everyone....is....the same.  That's an untraditional mechanic and I'm willing to concede that to you, as totally unfun as that sounds. ( ' :

Yes, you can master everything eventually. And in WoW, War, or other such games, I can make an alt for each class. Again, in ER we'll have more flexibility in building your character, but there is no reason to believe that everyone will the same anymore than you could believe that everyone playing WoW is a warrior. For one, if everyone chose the same build, I would just choose a build to counter that one. Besides, preference for different styles alone would drive diversity.

But not everyone in WoW is a warrior.  People make dcisions about what they're willing to give up for what they will get.  In ER, apparently everyone eventually is converging on the same build.

If you would like to actually know about ER instead of rambling about the ills of a game you know nothing about, I can suggest some useful links where you can learn about the game.

Unofficial faq

Question of the Week board

Wiki

With all due respect, I wasn't rambling about the ills of the game you are so passionate about so much as phrasing my responses (except towards the end where I specifcally mention ER) within the context of the original post.  My original reply was to someone complaining that primary purpose of alts is for doing nefarious things.  I'm well aware that some people like to exclusively play mains and I  merely disagreed with that, in the context of games, not this game....which is when you came charging in.  Try reading post 100.

As for ER specifcally -- no doubt you don't need alts when your character can do everything --I'm not going to disagree with that.  Without constraints on the skill system though, it doesn't sound very appealing to me.  THanks for the head's up! ( ' :

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

Originally posted by Harabeck

Originally posted by therain93

 

 

2.)  How far do we go down this slippery slope of eliminating player consequences for their actions?  Easing death penalties is one thing but eliminating the implications of character skill/power decisions by allowing unlimited respecs takes it to another level of  the IWIN-button.   Why give someone the choice of taking skills at the expense of not taking others when it can all be undone?  It trivializes the system. 

 

First of all, you do know that "slippery slope" refers to a logical fallacy right? As for easing death penalties, ER's system is less harsh than say, Darkfall, because you can keep your gear, but it is still harsh overall. You have to pay money to keep those items safe, and part of that money goes to whoever killed you. Next, I don't see how respecs give you an i-win button. I-win buttons exist whether or not you can respec at all.

Slippery slope is perfectly acceptable if the premises are logically connected to the conclusions.  Eliminating consequences eventually leads to an iwin button situation.  First, ease the consequences of stupid actions that get you killed.  Next, ease the consequences of the decisions you make specing, allowing you to switch to whatever build you need at a given play session (I want to be a healer.....oh now, no i need to be a melee expert, oh now i need to be  a master thief....instead of dealing with it using the build you chose.)   The iwin buitton is the concept of removing all challenge from a game....

Slippery slope specifically describes the situation when there is an illogical leap in a chain of reasoning. Here, your slippery slope is assuming that easing some consequences removes all challenge. In most games, I don't have to worry about losing all of my character progress every time I die, but that doesn't mean the game can't be hard. So again, in ER, there is a serious death penalty, and there is no respeccing. If you know a skill, you put in the time to learn it.

My reference to slippery slope is about game design and it's progression towards an iwin button in general.  The original post and poll was asking "would you play A game being unable to create alts" so I'm talking about games and game design. 

That is still the very definition of the slippery slope fallacy. Making certain things more convenient does not mean that players get access to an iwin button.

More importantly, Earthrise does not have respecs! You cannot take skill points out of one thing and put it into another. You must put the time in to learn any skills you want to know. This is very similar to how Eve operates. You cannot use tech 2 frigate skills while piloting a battleship. But you must still learn both, and which you are using is dependent on the gear (or in Eve's case, which ship/mods) you are using.

Earthrise again....wow.  So, first of all, in a game other than ER which does not have respecs, if you're attempting to learn everything, all you can ever be is jack of all trades and master of none.  Rather than have alts specialized for tasks by their classes and specs, you're basically claiming to make one character who performs everything at some level of mediocrity.  No you're going to say?  Well then something needs to be compromised in order to be a master at something else. 

Yes, Earthrise. Welcome to the Earthrise boards, the place in which we are having this discussion. Why do you see alts as a better alternative to just learning everything on one character? If I play, and take the time to level one of every class, how is that different from playing a game where I can learn everything on one character, but can only use one skill st at a time? Does having to log out and then back in really mean that much to you?

Thank you for that welcome.  I honestly thought I was on the general boards, given the phrasing of the op's question.  It goes along way towards explaining why this dude [you] keeps focusing on Earthrise when talking about a generic question and, hopefully, explaining where I was coming from.  I see alts and caps on learning skills as an important game mechanic that forces you to make decisions about how you will design your character.  The ability to master everything kind of trivializes the process and begs the question, "why bother having it?"  it feels like the ultimate slap-in-the-face timesink.  It's just an opinion.

The player still has to decide what to train, and what to make active with equipment. Skill caps just mean you have to use an alt.

"Taking skill points out of one thing and put it into another" as you say is exactly what people are talking about when they say one character can do anything.  I don't know if I can make this any clearer...you have 10 levels: level up fireball to 10 and axe to 0; level up fireball to 5 and axe to 5; level axe to 10 and fireball to 0.  Without alts and/or respecs, you are either mediocre in 2 skills, or a master of one and incapable of another.

You don't seem to grasp the concept at play here. To use a skill, you must do two things: learn it, and then equip the necessary gear to use it. This is different from traditional games where you have access to all skills you know at any time, you only have access to the small subset made active by your equipped gear. This is no different than having a game with classes where you can have alts (except that you have more flexibility in making your builds).

I fully understand the concept at play.  Really, mining requires a hammer and doesn't level up your gathering skills when used.  Leveling up your sword skills do not transfer to your hammer.  This isn't original in any way.  Again, the author posed the question about "a" game, not earthrise spcifically, which you kept steering towards and I intentionally separately addressed in the next paragraph.

Not quite. Any experience earned goes to a combat pool. You can distribute the points however you want. It is not an uber exploitable level-as-you-use system like Darkfall.

Now, prior to this thread, I really knew nothing about ER and now I know a few tidbits...because the game isn't even out YET.  So, in Earthrise, everyone can master everything eventually.  Wow....so, rather than everyone possibly starting out identical in the game (like most), everyone eventually ends up identical at the end....unspecialized...Yes, I guess you don't need an alt when everyone....is....the same.  That's an untraditional mechanic and I'm willing to concede that to you, as totally unfun as that sounds. ( ' :

Yes, you can master everything eventually. And in WoW, War, or other such games, I can make an alt for each class. Again, in ER we'll have more flexibility in building your character, but there is no reason to believe that everyone will the same anymore than you could believe that everyone playing WoW is a warrior. For one, if everyone chose the same build, I would just choose a build to counter that one. Besides, preference for different styles alone would drive diversity.

But not everyone in WoW is a warrior.  People make dcisions about what they're willing to give up for what they will get.  In ER, apparently everyone eventually is converging on the same build.

Not everyone in WoW is a warrior? Uh, ya... I said that. Actually, its central to my argument, not sure what you're getting at. And you're wrong, I don't have to give up my rogue to level my warrior. I just chose to spend the time in a different direction. In the same way, in ER I can spend my time training whatever I want, I just don't have to log on to a separate character to access those other skills, and I'm free to mix and match. There is no reason to believe everyone would converge on the same build (unless the whole system is just horribly designed, but that's another issue that could take place in a class based game as well).

If you would like to actually know about ER instead of rambling about the ills of a game you know nothing about, I can suggest some useful links where you can learn about the game.

Unofficial faq

Question of the Week board

Wiki

 

With all due respect, I wasn't rambling about the ills of the game you are so passionate about so much as phrasing my responses (except towards the end where I specifcally mention ER) within the context of the original post.  My original reply was to someone complaining that primary purpose of alts is for doing nefarious things.  I'm well aware that some people like to exclusively play mains and I  merely disagreed with that, in the context of games, not this game....which is when you came charging in.  Try reading post 100.

As for ER specifcally -- no doubt you don't need alts when your character can do everything --I'm not going to disagree with that.  Without constraints on the skill system though, it doesn't sound very appealing to me.  THanks for the head's up! ( ' :

 We made a rainbow!

Originally posted by therain93

As for ER specifcally -- no doubt you don't need alts when your character can do everything --I'm not going to disagree with that.  Without constraints on the skill system though, it doesn't sound very appealing to me.  THanks for the head's up! ( ' :

Earthrise is not about training upt to max lavel and grind out the best gear after you've maxed out your toon. Earthrise is about territorial warfare and control of ressources in that.

So the training of skills, and the possibility to train every skill in the game isn't breaking the game at all, especially, as you can't switch your "class" in the middle of a fight. All skills and abilities are tied to the equipment you are wearing. So to switch your "class" you need to re-equip first, like switching a shipin EvE Online.

And now, as this game is basically all about PvP, people are asking for single-characters on an account, as this would lead to more player-responsibility... e.g. you can't be a prick without the consequences.

  To stay more on topic, I rarely use alts. I dont wake up and decide which version of me to use today ( and please no psychological breakdowns of moods and personality blah blah) I just think you only need 1 character, but to go along with that you need flexibility with that 1 char to change and re-develop as your mood changes, just like you as a person can.

Im currently playing Darkfall so my answer was a yes for sure. I actually enjoy only one character mostly because it makes it easy to avoid the douchbags. I'll admit I would like one more character slot for gathering but I cant imagine myself skilling up another whole toon from the start so its not a big deal to me.

yeah if it one sever that way the way u act means how other view u. but i think maybe 2 toons max would be awesome that why u can try something new with out losing your main.

The whole reason they go with one char is the above-mentioned reputations build upon how the player acts... though Tabula Rasa basically allowed you to have 8 characters using the same name a while back, and I question why it hasn't been considered to patch-up this issue.

Doesn't bother me at all.

I'm a Darkfall player, and I actually LIKE the fact that we only have one character per account. Of course, it's a skill based system, with no cap, so it kinda works well in that respect. No need to have an alt when your one character can learn everything.

I agree that a skills-based game that uses just one avatar should not employ respecs, at least not to the extent that you swap one set of skills for another. I am sure many of you remember the PreCU SWG system. You dropped skills to gain skill points, but you had to earn your new skills. Oh, SOE did, from time to time, allow grind-free Respecs, but that was when they were messing with the CU and NGE changes.

As for an ALT-free game that allows unlimited skill development? Hmmm,... I honestly don't know. Maybe if there were some challenges put up to make such powerful and flexible characters harder to develop.

I would have zero reservations about playing a game that didn't allow you to create 2nd characters... on a given server.  As long as the game had multiple servers and allowed me to play alts on other servers OR a dev server/test server that I could play on for testing spec's or other classes.

If the game was 'classless', then sure.  A single toon works.  I agree with someone else that talked about preCU SWG type of skill/class system that was employed there... that worked well, imho.  It doesn't call for a complete 'respec' and it also has you use the skills that you wish to 'develop' or invest points into.  I'm all for that. 

I'm also someone that generally has 2-3 accounts in any given game.  That does have some influence on my opinion here, but not much honestly. 

I don't mind (in fact, I prefer) a system like SWG where you have one character *per server*, so in one server I am a mage, in another server I can play my rogue, for example.