Mabinogi News - Digging Into the Item Shop
Posted by Keith Cross on Jun 03, 2009 | 33 comments in our forums
MMORPG.com Mabinogi Correspondent Beau Turkey writes this look at item shops in free 2 play MMOs with specific reference to Nexon's Mabinogi.
In the cash shop world, it is accepted that many players spend money on virtual items. It is discussed here and there, and in some games is talked about as though the items might be "unfair," but overall the attitude is "anyone can do it, so be it..."
Mabinogi is no different. I spend a great deal of time in the game, and players rarely even discuss the cash shop... at least in the populated towns and in discussions with me. Granted, they could be staging protests that I am not invited to, but I doubt it. Most players are simply playing the game.
Why is it that most players (in cash shop games) don't worry so much about those players that spend real life money on items, while players in non-cash shop games seem to speak of the cash shop as though it is the end of the world?
Read more here.
Lately it feels like there is a push to get people to accept cash shops in their games from the staff here at MMORPG.com. F2P games are designed with that model from the beginning and the people playing them know that and like a cash shop. People playing a P2P game that all of a sudden have a cash shop forced on them understandably see that is bad. Why all the greed? Why should a player paying a sub fee not have access to all parts of the game be it cosmetic items or xp potions if the devs add an item it should be in a sub game period.
And typing comments such as "end of the world" when you are speaking of folks who do not agree with RMT is poor taste.
Granted developers are in the business to make money. Those with a cash shop generally go way beyond just fluff items. Mabinogi is no different. Sure you can still play the game free if you like, but certain activities, especially anything to do with pvp is basically not available to you. Oh yes, you can pvp if you like, but you are going to be on the losing end most of the time.
So yeah, you can marginalize the cash shops, depending on how you play, but because they go beyond fluff items they most definitely effect gameplay. Buying your way to success just seems cheap to me. The intent of a MMO is supposed to be developing your character through your gameplay NOT your wallet.
So please enjoy the game and have fun, but don't come here trying to tell us that RMT does not matter because everyone knows it does.
I agree with the poster above statement completely, but game developers of F2P not all but the ones who make sure that buying things make you more powerful quickly without having to invest game time are ones who are more worried about there status in the game rather than enjoying the experience, but on the flip side some people don't want to have to "grind" through another game so business wise great decision but if not implemented where people can get the same gear playing free then its unbalancing the game, but cash shops in P2P is a money grab and companies like SOE will continue to see how far they can push there customers before they revolt and quit playing.
I agree with you but I would also like to add. There are better ways than rmt item shops to fix the time issues some gamers seem to have or are worried about keeping up with other folks in these games. Let's keep the game in the game and real life out of it. The way I see it is if a game is so time consuming for you or you feel it is so unfun that you have to skip parts of it for real life cash then it isn't the game for you. After all these are just games meant to be played and enjoyed.
Instead of telling the MMO producers with your wallet that RMT is an acceptable way of dealing with your time constraints .. how about vote no with your wallets and wait for them to produce a game within your itme constraints without the additional cost of item shops? Face it, they are not doing you a favor with the item shop business model. They could just as easily design a game with you in mind from the beginning. I chalk it up to bad game design if someone feels the need to buy an item in game. If the person has to skip parts of your game then that game isn't designed for that person.
I am not against the player who has less time to play. I am actually for that player. I think games should be designed for that group but RMT isn't the developers throwing you guys a bone. RMT is just a marketing ploy to get more money from you. It goes against what video games are. Video games are meant to be played. When you introduce real life money into the game then you have taken people out of the game and back into real life. RMT games should be labeled appropiately as real life money games in the same category as casinos.
Im just gonna hijack this thread to point out the fact I hate Nexon for not releasing this in europe.
Is it me or does my article "read more" link not go anywhere? hehe
All I am seeing is the first three paragraphs?
I'll wait to comment till I make sure it works! :)
EDIT: Ah, while I am waiting, let me just address the issue of RMT mattering to players: it can, and it cannot. In most of the games I have played (now approaching 50 F2P games, and pretty much every other "normal" mmo) there is but a very few differences between a cash shop buyer and a non-cash shop buyer.
The biggest difference is time saved.
We will not argue if if/how much an advantage is given, being that some will believe what they will believe, and I will do the same. All I know is that in the games I have played and spent money in, most players do not spend money. Most play the game and get items from the game that are equivalent, if not better, than the ones you buy in the cash shop.
Most of the high ticket items in Mabi are weapons/armor and dye.
All things (save dye) that can be aquired in the game, without the cash shop. That's why cash (in game money) is so important in Mabi: people use it, and it has nothing to do with the cash shop.
The cash shop is a choice, and is not forced upon anyone. If you are playing within a certain very specific sphere, you might need items from the cash shop. But within the general areas of the game, in the bulk of the game, you can survive just fine without spending a dime.
Beau
I see your point but might there be a better way? Instead of whipping out the credit card for the person saving time how about a game designed around their time constraints? I feel that RMT just goes against all that is gaming. Why play a game when it isn't your character in the game getting the items through gameplay means rather swiping a credit card? It is hard for me to understand because of why I play video games. At least I hope both subscription based model and cash shop model continue to go on side by side or a gamer like me will not enjoy the genre anymore. I think games should offer either a subcription fee or RMT but the gamer should have an option which server they play on. Look what SOE has done recently. In their subscription based game Everquest which I might add is 15/month they have put the virtual item shop in as well. For the sub fee all items should be obtainable in game, even cosmetic ones.
Think about what you just said, though: whipping out a credit card for items, instead of playing for them.
When you pay 50 dollars for a box (in some cases) and pay 15 dollars a month, you are receiving virtual goods for your real life cash. It will differ in different games, but in most you receive newbie gear and items, which although low, does have SOME value. You might also receive a mount, a house, or many other examples of virtual goods that you did nothing to get. Limited Editions are never discussed this way, but often you pay a little extra and get a little extra..for no work. Yet, no one has issues with the extra "benefits" that a player gets from buying a limited edition.
Point being that the value of the items you get by playing the game is variable. But, no one can deny that you are getting virtual items with every subscription for your money. Your very avatar is a virtual item, the access to the game is the same.
Just because some players see a difference between a dagger that came from a quest and a dagger that was paid for does not mean that the "paid for" dagger is any different. You still paid money to a company for something that is virtual, not real, and that you do not own.
Let's take a low level quest, for example. That quest might take one player 4 hours to complete and yet take another 15 minutes to complete. So, for whom would the quest prize have the most value? The player that took longer because he "worked harder" or the player that happen to finish it faster? That value is variable upon the player.
Same with a cash shop item. You might pay 15 dollars for an amount of time to GET such an item, but I want to pay 15 dollars for the item. There is no difference. One player cannot say which method is more valuable, that depends only on the player. Time is equivalent to money, especially in this day and age. But money is equivalent to time as well.
Also, even in cases of PVP, (in almost all of the games that I have played that feature PVP) there are plenty of actual in-game items that are equivalent, if not better, than the items you can get in the cash shop. The game developer cannot help it if one player can afford the cash shop item and one cannot.
By that argument, should the developers consider poorer players if they cannot afford the subscription? How about should they ban those players that can afford more than one account?
There have been examples of players, and will always be examples of players, in "normal" MMO's that have used money to gain an advantage. Yet, no one has a problem with a dual-boxer or someone with an extra account just used for extra storage. But if I BUY that extra storage item in the cash shop, it is wrong?
Trading any amount of money, be it for a sub or an item, for anything virtual, is the same procedure and same principal.
Beau
I would like to point out that there is no "push" from me (can't speak for any other writers) for cash shops.
The simple fact of the matter is that there are more cash shop games, and more coming (built into normal mmos) all the time. There are more players playing cash-shop/RMT based games than not. To not cover cash shop games would actually be basically leaving yourself in the cold.
There are, of course, many reasons why other players across the world play cash shop games, but they are still players, and there are more in the US as well.
EDIT: A correction, you don't play for 20 weeks before you hit age 20, you play for 10. You start out, even after a re-birth, at age 10.
Beau
So, given the obvious bias the correspondent seems to have in regards to cash shop oriented games, does this mean we'll be seeing more of this kind of one-sided reporting on mmorpg.com in the future?
Honestly, if you can't see why a cash-shop system is a detriment to the integrity of the gaming industry then I don't even know what to say.
I only wish it was playable from europe (in a legit way)
Of course I am bias towards a cash shop based system: I prefer a cash shop based system. I am not a reporter for CNN, but someone that is writing an opinion piece.
The other side of the coin is the "non cash-shop" games which receive, if you may notice, quite a bit of coverage on this site.
And all I can say is that we obviously won't agree. The cash shop system is working in more games than not, and there are more cash shop based games giving players a chance to play that normally could not. But I won't try to convince you, you have made up your mind. But thanks for reading!
Beau
I have spent about a year with Mabinogi so I can add my view.
There are a few reasons why Mabinogi players have not complained about the cash shop:
1) Cash Shop Items offered do not add any skills advantages.
Nexon had recently made previous cash shop services (Spirit Weapons, Transformations, Storyline, Rebirths) free for all players. Buying that gacaphon weapon won't save you from a Dark Knight.
2) Premium Services are free for beginners.
Until you hit the total level of 30, beginners can try out the premium services like Nao for free. In theory you could keep on deleveling and have the premium service free forever.
3) NX is accessible.
If you played Mabinogi long enough you realize a lot of players have pets and custom characters. I have to give Nexon credit that they made NX cards accessible in a lot of stores.
Unless you're dirt poor, $10 one-time purchase should not be a heavy expense compared to paying $15/month for P2P games.
4) $10 goes a long way.
The pets in Mabinogi is probably the best purchase you can make. The pets are permanent, they act as extra inventory space, they heal you and they can fight as well.
I dont see why there should be made a big deal of it. Like someone mentioned it is choice, dont use it if you dont like it. Most of the games I played (40+) have cash shop items that can be adquired in the game but usually required a few more levels for the character or to hunt a rare monster. In which case cash shops simply save a lot of time trying to get such item due to more people hunting the same monster thus avoiding loosing game time waiting.
Another thing I noticed is that you can buy or rent a piece of accesory that usually is unavailable on the game wich give slight advantages (although I seen some that are a bit to much) and may not count towards your usual gear (IE. Trickster's glases and accesories). Another item I know sells well (based on friends using them) are hunting packets witch usually contain a few sets of different items to raise the chances of the player surviving and getting the most out of their game. Usually for people who dont like the death penalty on most games or that dont usually have a lot of time to play.
As for myself, I like fluff items just to make my character look a bit different.
Almost forgot to mention something else I see with games when they get cash shop. That is that it usually gets updates faster than it was before since they can pay (for non producing companies) for the content from the creator company.
Of course I am bias towards a cash shop based system: I prefer a cash shop based system. I am not a reporter for CNN, but someone that is writing an opinion piece.
The other side of the coin is the "non cash-shop" games which receive, if you may notice, quite a bit of coverage on this site.
And all I can say is that we obviously won't agree. The cash shop system is working in more games than not, and there are more cash shop based games giving players a chance to play that normally could not. But I won't try to convince you, you have made up your mind. But thanks for reading!
Beau
That's just it; sure, more players are able to get on the game, but how many of them are able to actually enjoy the game to the fullest without shelling out a ridiculous amount of money every month? In the end, for most of the cash shop games, you end up having to spend way more a month than you would with a P2P game in order to experience the game to the fullest or at least, experience the game at a tolerable level (an example would be the terrible grind in a lot of these F2P games that require special cash shop items to alleviate it to an acceptable level.)
Then, there's the fact that there doesn't seem to be a single F2P (at least not one that I've ever played) that can be compared to even some of the cheaper P2P games, in terms of quality. I've played Mabinogi, and it seemed like a pretty cheaply made game to me. The graphics (of the world, at least) weren't very good for the most part (as is the case with most of the graphic engines used in F2P games), the combat was subpar, despite that being one of the apparent highlights of the game, and the game itself didn't seem to have much of an endgame, aside from endlessly training skills. Sadly, it's the same way with just about every other F2P game out there. In fact, the only F2P games that I've ever played that were even remotely close to the quality level of a P2P mmo, in terms of graphics and content, were the ones that started as a P2P game and then went to F2P afterwards.
With all that said, if F2P games are really going to become the dominant force in online gaming (I seriously doubt it unless they up the quality of them, 10 fold), then this genre is going to take a serious turn towards the mediocre side of things.
If you are convinced that you have to spend money to enjoy the game, then just consider it a sub, and then we have nothing to argue about. According to you, they are the same thing, being that you cannot avoid paying cash in either case (of course, this is not the case in 99 percent of the F2P games I have spent time in, some near 50 of them) so why don't you just say that these F2P games are a standard sub game?
Basically, paying a sub is paying cash into the developers hands, period. Paying money into a cash shop is the same. None of the cash shop games out there exist on selling only items that give trye advantages in their games.
In fact, most of them exist on selling mostly fluff followed by some items that might give some advantage, but only in specific examples. There are so many choices in games now that saying "I PVP" is but one small choice in many.
Cash shop games, and their principles, have been around since you could buy collectors editions or a second account. It's all the same! :) Yet, how many of you, that do not like cash shop games, have paid extra money for a collectors edition because it comes with an in-game item?
How many of you have either used a "bank alt" or bought a second account?
Those examples are examples of the player using MONEY for an ADVANTAGE. Yet, no one has issues with that.
Beau
This argument that P2P is superior to F2P does not hold water.
P2P is littered with failed games like Matrix Online, Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa, etc.
I looked at P2P as a F2P where you have to mandatory pay to gain access to all the cash shop items (Game Features).
In Mabinogi, can you get every single item out of the cash shop for 15/month and continue to do so? Some of those items are consumables as well. Say I use aproximately 25 potions a month in my 15/month game, can you still get all items plus multiple consumables for 15/month? Curious, please someone do the math.
It will come down to how you view it. I view buying an item with a credit card without any gameplay to obtain the item wrong. I play games for the gameplay experience. My view on a video game does not have things outside of the gameworld affect a character. To answer a previous question in this thread: I have never purchased a collectors edition box for some digital item, I have always viewd collector edition ploys a scam and retarded. I also never have purchased a second account in a video game to hold items or box, that takes away from the game experience for me and I see it as a waste of money. That is your view on games. I see them differently. Once you purchase a second character to box then you are no longer just concerned with having fun and adventuring the way the game was intended, you are looking for ways to cheat the system.
If I felt the need to ever purchase another account and this goes for the same as RMT in a game, I will quit. Apparently if there is a need for either of those for me, I am playing a badly designed unfun game.
In Mabinogi, can you get every single item out of the cash shop for 15/month and continue to do so? Some of those items are consumables as well. Say I use aproximately 25 potions a month in my 15/month game, can you still get all items plus multiple consumables for 15/month? Curious, please someone do the math.
It will come down to how you view it. I view buying an item with a credit card without any gameplay to obtain the item wrong. I play games for the gameplay experience. My view on a video game does not have things outside of the gameworld affect a character. To answer a previous question in this thread: I have never purchased a collectors edition box for some digital item, I have always viewd collector edition ploys a scam and retarded. I also never have purchased a second account in a video game to hold items or box, that takes away from the game experience for me and I see it as a waste of money. That is your view on games. I see them differently. Once you purchase a second character to box then you are no longer just concerned with having fun and adventuring the way the game was intended, you are looking for ways to cheat the system.
If I felt the need to ever purchase another account and this goes for the same as RMT in a game, I will quit. Apparently if there is a need for either of those for me, I am playing a badly designed unfun game.
^ Thank you qombi, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Beau, you say that F2P and P2P games are no different in the end, but that's far from the truth. You show me a F2P game that gives me all the benefits and conveniences of a P2P game, at only 15 dollars a month, and maybe I'll agree with you. The truth is, cash shop games are made on the basis of "get as much money out of people as possible with no limit". People that can afford it will spend tons every month to always have the edge, whilst the rest of us (who only spend 15 dollars a month), will be left in the dust, in more ways than one.
I'll agree that there might be some F2P games that don't offer such significant differences from using the cash shop, but from what I've seen, they're few and far between.
As for buying the collectors edition of a P2P game in order to get the special items (something I've never done, to be honest), that's hardly a fair comparison. First of all, I can't even think of anything that's ever been offered in a collectors edition that was anything other than a fluff item - the biggest thing I can think of is maybe a special mount or something of that sort, or some special potions. The difference is, those are typically limited time use items. The cash shop, on the other hand, opens up an "unlimited collectors edition" in a sense, and that just seems wrong - especially if you want to be somewhat competitive in the game.
The bottom line is, if you want to have a fair playing field in most F2P games, or have a tolerable playing experience, you've got to shell out the cash for it, and in most cases, it will be far more than 15 dollars a month. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Mabinogi's cash shop, since I haven't played the game much, but many of the others I've played have items in their cash shop that are so damning, (here's one example) that crafters in the game actually stopped making items because it was less time consuming to buy them from the shop. I don't care how you spin it - when a game gets to the point that the developers are so focused on squeezing money out of people that they start to ruin the integrity of the game mechanics by pingeonholing people into buying their crap, versus actually playing the game, it's just wrong.
That's far different from using a bank alt for nothing but storage (I don't have a problem with that kind of thing), or using a few limited use items.
Not to mention when I am playing a game I want to be able to ultimately be able to obtain EVERY item in game if I choose to do so with my in game character's efforts. If there are things in the item shop that I can not adventure for in game then that takes away parts of the game for me be it fluff or what not.
So, you mention 3 of the only P2P games that have ever been canceled, and that's supposed to compare to the 100's of terrible F2P games out there? Not a very strong comparison.
"I looked at P2P as a F2P where you have to mandatory pay to gain access to all the cash shop items (Game Features)."
And how exactly is that worse than a F2P, where you're basically forced to spend a ton of money to have the same advantages as you would for a static 15 dollars a month on a P2P? Once again, not a very strong argument on your end.
Once again you are placing YOUR value (all items in collectors editions are "fluff") on items that many people place their own value on. You mean to tell me that the guy that paid 400 dollars for a limited edition, just to get the fluff pet, holds no value for that fluff pet? There is no definition of value that says "the item in question must have some use in combat." to some players, a fluff item can be just as valuable as a sword. The cloak I got in Mines of Moria has definite stats and usefulness, but many liked it for the look alone. One player might see it as an "advantage" while others laugh at the idea.
You are not even seeing this, though.
You keep using words like "tolerable" and saying such things as "..those are typically limited use items.." as though YOU set the standard for what someone else should value.
You are proving my point, hardcore.
One player cannot say that a health potion is more valuable than a horse, or a sword, or time saved. It is up the individual. You see no irony in the fact that you have no issues with a BANK ALT (a blatant form of cash-shoppery if ever there was one) but yet have an issue with an item that, according to you, provides an unfair advantage?
So, according to you, I can buy a second account and it's ok, yet if I buy the "extra bank slots" cash shop item (that does exist) ...I am cheating?
Whose advantage are you talking about here? That cash shop player over yourself? Are you two in some kind of competition?
Also, you see NO IRONY in the "limited cash shop" of the limited edition, because it is such a smalllllll sin, as compared to the huge evil sin of the "unlimited limited edition" of the cash shop?
In other words, it's ok to use a cash shop just a bit, but not a lot?
These are the kind of points that always prove my point: most players have no issues with "cheating", as long as they think they have been cheated.
Beau
I should mention Darkfall, where its questionable anemic content...
Spending money on F2P is optional.
There seem perception that a level 10 player can go off and buy a cash shop weapon and start beating up on level 100 players - it's just preposterous.
From an economic point of view F2P makes more sense than P2P.
With P2P you have spend $180 ($15x12months) annually regardless of how much content you use or not.
At least with F2P your content consumption is not measure on a monthly flat rate.
Well sorry to break your bubble, but that is not true at all. It is far more expensive to play in a F2P game than a subscription game. Unless of course you never want to pvp and don't mind being 10 of levels behind your friends because they do.
Just can't believe how many naive posters are in this thread.
It comes down to a difference in philosophy as what is consider to be a successful player in a MMORPG.
I can understand that there are some hardcore players that have the compulsion to spend hours on end to reach level 1000, must get that super-secret holy sword and that mega-ultra black loin mount so that they can flamboyantly show off to their friends.
I belong to the party that doesn't care if I reach level 1000 or find that super secret item because I play it to enjoy it, not to show off.
Once again you are placing YOUR value (all items in collectors editions are "fluff") on items that many people place their own value on. You mean to tell me that the guy that paid 400 dollars for a limited edition, just to get the fluff pet, holds no value for that fluff pet? There is no definition of value that says "the item in question must have some use in combat." to some players, a fluff item can be just as valuable as a sword. The cloak I got in Mines of Moria has definite stats and usefulness, but many liked it for the look alone. One player might see it as an "advantage" while others laugh at the idea.
You are not even seeing this, though.
You keep using words like "tolerable" and saying such things as "..those are typically limited use items.." as though YOU set the standard for what someone else should value.
You are proving my point, hardcore.
One player cannot say that a health potion is more valuable than a horse, or a sword, or time saved. It is up the individual. You see no irony in the fact that you have no issues with a BANK ALT (a blatant form of cash-shoppery if ever there was one) but yet have an issue with an item that, according to you, provides an unfair advantage?
So, according to you, I can buy a second account and it's ok, yet if I buy the "extra bank slots" cash shop item (that does exist) ...I am cheating?
Whose advantage are you talking about here? That cash shop player over yourself? Are you two in some kind of competition?
Also, you see NO IRONY in the "limited cash shop" of the limited edition, because it is such a smalllllll sin, as compared to the huge evil sin of the "unlimited limited edition" of the cash shop?
In other words, it's ok to use a cash shop just a bit, but not a lot?
These are the kind of points that always prove my point: most players have no issues with "cheating", as long as they think they have been cheated.
Beau
You seem to be misunderstanding my point here. My definition of "fluff" item is something that doesn't offer an advantage to the gameplay. I have no problem with "fluff" items, and I'd assume (yes I said "assume") that no one else would either. I don't care if you use the cash shop to buy extra bank slots (I say this is a fluff item because it doesn't give your character extra stats, speed, or any other kind of real advantage to your actual character aside from a little extra space), not at all, or to get a special mount, just as long as that mount doesn't give the player some huge speed advantage that can't be earned in the game through actually playing the game.
I understand that I'm using my own opinions on what I think would be considered fluff items and what wouldn't, but then again, it all comes down to the same thing that I believe is pretty much universal to all players that dislike the cash shop games, and that is - people shouldn't be able to gain some huge advantage in a game by merely buying items, while those of us who don't wish to use the cash shop don't have the option to earn the same items by playing the game. If I'm able to obtain all the same stuff that the cash shop offers, by merely playing the game for instance, or buy the xp potions using in-game currency that I earned in the game (for example), then I don't really care that the cash shop sells it. The point I'm tryng to make is that that's rarely the case in these types of games. Typically (and I say this from my own experience with cash shop games), the F2P games don't offer that kind of alternative to players, like myself, who would rather earn everything on our own (at least not at an acceptable level - what I mean is, they might offer the same items in-game BUT the time and effort involved to get them might be unrealistic), in-game. Instead, they offer these "cash shop exclusive" items that make such a huge difference, whether it be stats to the characters, increased xp gain, stat potions that can't be obtained in-game, health potions that are far superior to anything you get in-game (stuff like that makes pvp much more difficult for those who don't use the shop), etc, etc.
As for the "little sin" remark, honestly, I don't like anything that offers an unfair advantage to players, but I can accept the lesser of two evils. I'd rather deal with one-time, limited use items versus a cash shop that offers the items eternally - at least the limited items will go away eventually. But If it were up to me, collectors editions wouldn't offer anything in-game related that gave an advantage to players (notice earlier, I said "special mounts as long as the speed isn't substantially faster"). But I digress - my definition of what's fluff and what's not is pretty simple and self-explanatory. Sure, I know not everyone is going to agree with me, but I think a majority of gamers like myself have a universal understanding of what kind of items are fair and what isn't. And no, I'm not a "hardcore" gamer either, I just think that items in a game should at least have the possibility of being earned by playing the game (I mean, it's one of the reasons many of us play the game afterall - to advance our characters), not by whipping out our pocket books for instant gratification that can only be obtained by the cash shop alone.
I think the main difference between players like you and players like me is that you don't really care if things are kept fair, while gamers like myself do. Maybe it's because I started with P2P games that always offered a fair playing field to all players for the same price, I don't know.
Overall, as much as I prefer games with static subscription fees that offer the same experience to everyone, I can accept a compromise with F2P games if they allow me to earn everything on my own (without some ridiculously, in-human grind) in the game, without ever having to use the cash shop, but since I can't think of a single game like that, I'll have to stick with my belief that F2P games are nothing more than a cheap marketing ploy with a mediocre game attached.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here.
The problem is, Alacres, that there is no competition to keep "fair."
If we lived in a magical world with no death and endless amounts of gold, there would be no competition.
Beau
Clearly, your definition of competition is much different than my own.
Once again you are placing YOUR value (all items in collectors editions are "fluff") on items that many people place their own value on. You mean to tell me that the guy that paid 400 dollars for a limited edition, just to get the fluff pet, holds no value for that fluff pet? There is no definition of value that says "the item in question must have some use in combat." to some players, a fluff item can be just as valuable as a sword. The cloak I got in Mines of Moria has definite stats and usefulness, but many liked it for the look alone. One player might see it as an "advantage" while others laugh at the idea.
You are not even seeing this, though.
You keep using words like "tolerable" and saying such things as "..those are typically limited use items.." as though YOU set the standard for what someone else should value.
You are proving my point, hardcore.
One player cannot say that a health potion is more valuable than a horse, or a sword, or time saved. It is up the individual. You see no irony in the fact that you have no issues with a BANK ALT (a blatant form of cash-shoppery if ever there was one) but yet have an issue with an item that, according to you, provides an unfair advantage?
So, according to you, I can buy a second account and it's ok, yet if I buy the "extra bank slots" cash shop item (that does exist) ...I am cheating?
Whose advantage are you talking about here? That cash shop player over yourself? Are you two in some kind of competition?
Also, you see NO IRONY in the "limited cash shop" of the limited edition, because it is such a smalllllll sin, as compared to the huge evil sin of the "unlimited limited edition" of the cash shop?
In other words, it's ok to use a cash shop just a bit, but not a lot?
These are the kind of points that always prove my point: most players have no issues with "cheating", as long as they think they have been cheated.
Beau
You didn't quote me, but I always have found the limited edition fad disgusting and a start to RMT in games. I haven't and will never purchase a limited edition box for some digital item. I have tolerated some games in the past doing this because it was a one time shot. Believe me, when it has started happening on a frequent basis (WoW for instance) that has accumulated for one of the reasons I left the game.
Below is my original post, that describes my views better:
In Mabinogi, can you get every single item out of the cash shop for 15/month and continue to do so? Some of those items are consumables as well. Say I use aproximately 25 potions a month in my 15/month game, can you still get all items plus multiple consumables for 15/month? Curious, please someone do the math.
It will come down to how you view it. I view buying an item with a credit card without any gameplay to obtain the item wrong. I play games for the gameplay experience. My view on a video game does not have things outside of the gameworld affect a character. To answer a previous question in this thread: I have never purchased a collectors edition box for some digital item, I have always viewd collector edition ploys a scam and retarded. I also never have purchased a second account in a video game to hold items or box, that takes away from the game experience for me and I see it as a waste of money. That is your view on games. I see them differently. Once you purchase a second character to box then you are no longer just concerned with having fun and adventuring the way the game was intended, you are looking for ways to cheat the system.
If I felt the need to ever purchase another account and this goes for the same as RMT in a game, I will quit. Apparently if there is a need for either of those for me, I am playing a badly designed unfun game.
Before people start to pick on each other too much, there's a general question to be solved first and foremost...
What do you want to do in a game? Do you want to have fun only (i.e. just playing for some hours) or do you want to be competitive and achieve something?
P2P is a leveled playground for MMOs with deeply implemented PvP, where there needs to be balance.
Take a game like EvE Online for example. If this game would be F2P with a cash-shop, then all those, who are lucky to have some bucks to spare for the cash-shop will have a huge advantage, which will unbalance the whole story about territorial warfare etc.
F2P MMOs are a nice thing, if you don't want to PvP at all, but only play some 2 hours in the evening. It doesn't matter if you have the fanciest stuff available, when you're beating up NPCs for the fun and the nice graphics.
So from my perception, both of the systems are equally good, depending on what you want to do in the game. If you want to PvP then search for a P2P MMO, and if it's all about the cheap relief after a hard day at work, then F2P is just the right thing for you.
For the record, here is the definition of the word "competition":
1: the act or process of competing : rivalry : as a: the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable terms b: active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply 2: a contest between rivals ; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition>
We'll break it down.
First part: 1: the act or process of competing : rivalry : as a: the effort of two or more parties acting independently to secure the business of a third party by offering the most favorable terms. Alright, this part could have something to do with crafting in the latter half, but the first part about having a "rivalry" still does not apply to a game that has no contests.
There are no contests in MMO's, or at least in 99.9 percent of them. There might be a racing live event, or something similar, but those are not the norm.
The second part: (this is the important one)
b: active demand by two or more organisms or kinds of organisms for some environmental resource in short supply.
The two "organisms" we are talking here are two players. There are no resources that are in short supply, unless the players come up with them themselves (for example, the first to reach a level, the last one to die.) All resources in MMO's are infinite, there is an endless supply. If you had two people sitting at a table, and both had an endless supply of Kool Aid, there would be no competition for Kool Aid.
The last part:
2: a contest between rivals ; also : one's competitors <faced tough competition>
Again, there are no official "contests" in 99.9 percent of MMO's. Even in a pvp based MMO, or a pvp heavy MMO, there are still choices. After all, the goal is not to NOT die, but might be seen as the goal to some. Death has no meaning, so "dying" is simply a pause.
Titles are, again, endless. TRhey can be gained by anyone.
The best gear is, again, in endless supply. No competition.
I can go on and on with examples of how MMO's, 99.9 percent of them, are not set up for any true competition. They allow for players to place VALUE in certain areas of the game, and in certain accomplishments, but no game forces that one area on the rest of the game. No forced play, no contest/rules to go by to prove a "winner."
You may feel as though we are competing in these games, but what do you "win?" Nothing that I cannot gain, as well. Gold medals for everyone.
Beau
You can quote and try to explain your interpretation of the true definition of competition all day long but it wont change the fact that many people, including myself, view the term much differently. Competition isn't always about obtaining a physical prize; it's about the feeling of accomplishment through work and dedication, and when other people are able to buy everything that you worked hard to achieve, it trivializes that rewarding feeling that many of us get from those said accomplishments.
For the sake of clarity, I'll admit that competition may not be the best term to use when talking generally about acomplishing goals in the game, but to say that competition barely exists for pvp players is just ludicrous. It doesn't matter that death isn't permanent, or that anyone can eventually obtain everything that someone else obtained. That person still has to work for it just like everyone else, and still has to compete to get those things, whether they be medals, loot, or even just recognition from other pvpers on the game. It's obvious that that sort of thing isn't significant for a player like yourself, but to many, it's a very real concept, and believing that it doesn't exist is just ignorant.
Like I said, you obviously don't care if things are on a fair playing field, while people like myself do. If significant items are offered in a cash shop, that aren't also offered in the game itself, then I will continue to think very poorly of the F2P philosophy.
And with that, I'm done with this thread. It's pretty clear that neither of us is going to convince each other of anything, so I think it's time to put this argument to rest.
It is a problem today with the "I want it now" crowd. Why work for anything when you can whip out a credit card and pay for it.
The concept of earning something is a foreign concept. Hard to try to explain to someone, when they can't grasp the idea behind what you are trying to discuss.