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What is it about Entropia Universe?
MMORPG.com's Carolyn Koh submits this Entropia Universe interview from the ION conference, talking to developer and player alike, Koh tried to get to the bottom of the question: "What is it about Entropia Universe anyway?"
One of the topics of a panel discussion as well as keynote and lecture at the 2008 ION Game Conference was that of the blurring of lines between Virtual Worlds, Online Spaces and traditional MMOGs; how they were integrated and how to integrate them. John Bates of MindArk who develops and publishes Entropia Universe brought up the topic in our interview.
“Entropia is not about quests and missions,” he said, “but an ongoing storyline and events that take place during this storyline.”
Entropia has a single world and it’s not just a virtual world, but also an exploring, tradeskill and adventure game as well. Parts of it are akin to Second Life, but players can also explore and adventure in this world, then come back to the cities and enjoy the social aspect of the game. Like Second Life, Entropia has a monetary system which has its in-game currency pegged at 10 PEDs (Project Entropia Dollars) to 1 US dollar.
“Entropia may be the bellwether of where things are going,” said John, “We have both the adventure gaming aspect as well as the virtual world aspect in our game. If you’d rather be off hunting creatures, you can do so.”
John believes that gamers do enjoy the social aspect of gaming, citing the example of the number of Halo3 players that “crashed” Xbox Live in their enthusiasm.
“We don’t just provide a space for you to go do your own thing, we have content updates every six to eight weeks.”
Buzz Erik Lightyear was present as a volunteer with Entropia’s ambassador program – a program which players can apply and be accepted to. A pool of players that MindArk draws from to help man their booths at shows and act as “Ambassadors” to meet and greet the public.
I spoke at length with Erik who has been playing the game since beta and has stayed with the game since its Project Entropia days to the current Entropia Universe. I asked him why he enjoyed a game such as Entropia. “What’s the hook?” I asked, “What made you first play the game and what made you stick with it for five years? Why are you still playing it?”
“I’m playing a game,” was his answer, “that actually gives me something back for playing it. I’m not paying to play. I’m profiting from playing.”
Entropia Universe is free to download, and free to play. It has a Sci-fi setting which first attracted Erik and he played it like he played EverQuest, World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy. He explored the world. He killed creatures and gathered raw ingredients to sell. Then he tried crafting and was hooked when he received his first “Hall of Fame” for the creation of a high value object which are broadcast globally and received congratulations from friends as well as strangers.
“You also get these fireworks over your head, so even if players filter out the Hall of Fame globals, they still see the fireworks and will congratulate you.”
Most players of the game are hunters, and Erik soon discovered that players were willing to pay him for better equipment. The more he crafted, the better his skills, and more blue prints opened up to him to create even better equipment.
“I put some money into the game at first, for better weapons and equipment. I harvested my own raw materials, but eventually, I specialized. I’m a dedicated craftsman now and I buy the raw materials in the auction house or from hunters that regularly supply them to me.”
Sound a little too good to be true? Entropia does have money sinks. There are auction house fees, shops have monthly maintenance fees and armor and equipment decays. Money does not make money. It takes a business savvy player to quickly figure out the most profitable items in terms of time, effort and demand. One can however, sink in a lot of real life cash into the game to make a lot of cash in return. A player relying to newbie armor and weaponry to bootstrap themselves may take a bit longer to establish a viable return the monetary sense than a player putting down more real cash. For example, you can’t kill a dinosaur with a pop gun, and as in any other game, the tougher the critter, the more valuable it’s hide.
“What about the barrier to entry?” Entropia is five years old and I believed that the barrier would be high for new craftsman to break into the market. Erik did not think so.
“Sure, there is competition, but most players are hunters. There’s always a demand for low level armor that the more skilled craftsmen will not make anymore as the profit margins are low. But for the new craftsmen, it’s a perfect niche for them to fill until their skills ramp up.”
“Is playing Entropia your job?” I wanted to know. “Do you do this full time?”
“It’s a game,” said Erik. “I’m having fun with it. I can walk away from it, explore new areas when they are patched in, enjoy doing things or just hanging out with friends. Shops and the auction run 24 hours and I don’t have to attend them. All transactions are secure and automatic.”
I probed a little further, “Does it pay your rent?”
“Well,” Erik volunteered. “I drew about $10,000 last year.”
Substantial chunk of change for a part-time job that you are having fun with, I’d say. Erik obviously loves the game. “At the end of the day,” he said, “What do you have from playing a game for years? In playing Entropia, I have money.”
Entropia Universe is growing. New planets will soon be launched and a publicity blitz planned once the CryEngine2 platform is ready to be rolled out and new planets announced.
“Now is the time to come in and look around,” said John Bates. “It doesn’t cost you a thing to try it out. You may like it, and you may become an online entrepreneur, earning money for having fun.”
John Bates of MindArk who develops and publishes Entropia Universe brought up the topic in our interview.
“Entropia is not about quests and missions,” he said, “but an ongoing storyline and events that take place during this storyline.”
lol ..theres a lack of storyline .. and whith every new VU theres lots of bugs
so its moore like a beta
It was a great idea but once they went currency exchange it pretty much became a scam. They've continually nerfed loot drops over the years so you're forced to throw a lot of money at this game just to play it.
This isn't so much a game as it is an online casino. And just for quick reference, a pair of jeans ingame costs three to four times as much as a pair of nice designer jeans in RL. No, I'm not kidding. I'm not talking with equivalent currency denominations either. The PED cost of jeans when exchanged into USD is about $200.00 USD.
That's why this game is
I agree this game is strictly a money scam as it exists today.
Sorry Carolyn, but why can't you ask the hard question, why this game is so expensive? It certainly does not offer much for the high cost to play it!
Far as I am concerned this is one of those HIGHLY NOT recommended games.
Nothing wrong with paying for something, I don't object to that, just that this game takes it way way too far to the point they are gouging the playerbase.
Im confused. I thought the game was free to play ? It sounds like the perfect MMO Ive been searching for ever since Star Wars Galaxies changed.
Technically speaking, it's F2P. You don't buy the client. You don't pay any subscription. The ingame currency, however, costs you money. One PED, Project Entropia Dollar, is worth 1 cent USD. 100 PED is a dollar, 1,000 PED is ten bucks, et cetera.
You can't really make any money in this game though unless you buy land or are a real high end crafter which takes an investment of thousands of real dollars. There are people who have invested $30,000+ in this game.
The basic rule of thumb for this scam is that you pay a dollar an hour because you have to buy ammunition from system vendors (like bullets and power cells for guns, bombs for mining. Those are the only things you can do really when you start).
Basically, even if you dropped fiteen bucks PED, like you would for client, and then paid up fifteen bucks a month after that you would not be able to sustain yourself.
I know this because I actually tried it and was completely scammed by "this great sounding sandbox that let's you do anything." I did not play this game like a tard. I was ultra conservative on my hunting, I didn't splurge for nice things once, I didn't pay taxes to hunt on private land. All of my money went towards ammunition and most bombs and it is straight up online gambling.
This website should really quit supporting this "game."
Bingo! I "invested" $20 in this "game" a few years ago, about when it started, and blew it all on armor and ammo, and whatever drops I got never was enough to keep me supplied with ammo even. What I saw of it was neat, but it was a money losing situation. If it had been sub. based, I would have played longer.
Did anyone even find the $1M ( or whatever it was ) gem they said was hidden someplace?
LoL, I just found an e-mail from 10/14/2002 Subject: Project Entropia Server Stress Test
DOH!
LOL, I guess I've deleted the e-mails I used to get every 6 months telling me how long it's been since I played and that my account would be closed! I got those for about 2 years! LOL
Delete.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I agree with lkavadas.
Many people on the games "official" forums are starting to complain about having to pump more and more money just to do basic things. Some people in EU defense claim to make money you have to spend money. If thats true then this isn't really a game at all. Most games will let you dabble in many of the features and skills to see what its like. Even with a real cash economy you shouldn't have to spend thousands of dollars just to get started.
I found out it was a cash machine when I invested some money and got some hunting/fighting skills past 2000. It doesn't matter what your skill is, you will always get the same loot. The also made items L for limited so you cannot repair them and have to buy new ones.
One PED is TEN cents. 10 to a dollar, 1000 for $100.
You can "sweat" mobs for a basic resource that people will buy for one half of one penny each. (200 Sweat = 10 PED = $1) If you get good at it, and get lucky, you can gather about 80 sweat in an hour. Sometimes you might get 1/4 of that.
Economically, you're WAY better off just getting a Sunday Morning Paper Route and putting the money from that into the game than you are spending your hours sweating, since sweating carries with it the risk of being attacked by the creature you're sweating. Being attacked = Repair Bill = even less economic viability.
Every single shot you fire from a gun costs you PED (remember: PED = Real Money). You kill a creature and loot it with traditional mechanics. However - quite frequently, the loot dropped isn't worth the money you spent on the ammo you used to kill the creature. It's like trying to hunt bear (for bearskin rugs) with $500 (each) bullets.
It is possible to come out ahead (temporarily), but, in the end, Entropia Universe is EXACTLY like feeding dimes into a slot machine in Vegas. Winning only encourages you to feed the beast more dimes.
Ouch. It's a very dark day indeed when the MMO money sink becomes an ACTUAL money sink.
Terrible idea Entropia. You're giving micro-transactions a bad name!
actually it would be easier to go to a park and pick up soda cans and return them for the deposit than to sweat.
This game does nothing more than feed on the same behavioral addiction that many folks have towards gambling. Which imo is the reason that people play this game. I played this game for 2 years and I can't speak for the crafting, but on the adventure/hunting side of the game every mob I killed was like putting money into a slot machine. I really felt the same rush of adrenaline that i got from gambling, every time the loot window would pop, I also had built my skills to a pretty substantial level and saw no improvement in my returns. I actually returned to this game later and found it to be even more of a cash drain.
If you started hardcore in beta or when the game went gold you might have positioned yourself at the top of the pyramid for making money. Maybe MMORPG should interview all the folks who have lost thousands of dollars playing this game instead of this public relations poster boy.
Occasionally, MMORPG.com should not run these kind of promo articles. Even though all games deserve a chance, after a while there are some that do not deserve promotion.
If this truly is online gambling, then I'd hesitate to call it an MMO.
Paying real money just to perform the most basic functions like attacking mobs?!
That's like a tax for breathing in real life. Killing mobs is the fundamental gameplay of MMOs!
When I played for a while, just about everyone I ran into in this game considered their gaming costs to be "investments". I never did understand that reasoning.
This move is one of the crappiest things they have done to the "game". You can no longer make real investments with your real money. You used to be able to spend a lot of real money on a gun and keep it, now you spend a lot real money on a gun that is gone in a few hours
Also, there are also a couple other key things missing from Entropia Universe:
I particapate in Entropia, but I do wish MindArk would get rid of the Limited (L) item concept and implement mounts/vehicles and a good postal system.
well Im so desperate for a sandbox MMO that I downloaded Entropia. However I couldnt get past naming my avatar. No matter what name I choose, someone else either had it or it was too close to someone else's name. I was using common english names, artsy fantasy names, any combo, etc and no matter what name or variation of it, entropia said it was taken. After a half hr of this, I deleted the game
Quote from the article:
I hope that anyone considering this game realizes that the $10,000 Erik "drew" came from players who lost money. MindArk did not pay him to play the game, nor will they pay you. More than likely, if you play this game, you will just feed the top players like Erik.
"If you started hardcore in beta or when the game went gold you might have positioned yourself at the top of the pyramid for making money."
I have been playing since March 2001
and I am telling you this game is not a cash drain . Period.
I played back in the Project Entropia days...
At first you were able to break even fairly regularly which was fun and enjoyable, but they continually changed the way that loot drops so that it became pretty much impossible to make back what you were spending so I stopped wasting time and money on it.
I dropped in last year to look at the game and the loot has changed even further so that no PEDs dropped at all, only materials.
The only people that are profiting from the game are the very old players that spent large amounts of money when it was viable to get ahead, no new player will ever be able to reach their levels without spending a phenomenal amount of money.
If the Entropia Universe had static rules that never changed then it would have been possible to play and actually make progress just through hard work, but since the developers can change the rules whenever they like it has become nothing but a money pit for any new players.
Unless you are willing to spend stupidly LARGE amounts of money and ridiculous amounts of time I would stay as far away from Entropia Universe as possible.
Hmmmm, 18 posters who say it is and even provide examples of why.
And then 1 poster ( you ) who says it's not.
Who to believe...............
It is true, game will cost quite some money in order to have fun. And yes each time you loot a mob you expect that jackpot.
Doing anything in this game raises related skills. And skills can be extracted to a chip and then sold. As long as there is demand for skills you can chip out and sell skills.
I spent over $700 for various items mainly weapons and armor etc. over 6 months I played. I scored few loots that kept me playing and payed for ammo. However when I chipped out and sold all my skills I gained in that time I got $750 back. My experience wasn't that bad. Although I agree that I played with low-med armors and weapons and didn't really go for several hundred PED hunts like vets and ubers do. I also tried to have most economical weapons etc.
I am a EU player and have played for about 2 years I put a small amount of money in once a month just like i would and do pay a monthly fee for a number of other games. I really enjoy the game and have had many fun hours hunting crafting and mining. The thing with EU is you dont have to spend a fortune to play the bigger stuff you want to hunt or craft carries a bigger risk as you are using more ammo or items to do it so if you dont get loot from the result then you have lost more. So all this talk about it been a big money pit all depends on how you play. I have deposited around £500 in total over 2 years. I have just dont a check on my current value of items and skills which can all be sold and if i wanted to leave the game now after selling everything I would be able to withdraw £1100 from the game right into my bank account. Of all the other MMO's I have spent money on not one of them has given me any money back never mind more than twice the amount I have paid to play it.
If you rush into EU without reading up about the best ways to play you will lose alot of money very fast. If your in it to make money you will likely lose money very fast. If you just after a different type of game for some fun then take a look but dont rush to spend money until you have a good idea of how it works.
I saved more money on that game than any MMO with montly payment.. because i can cashout anytime... i guess there involve the investment stating... at July it will be 2 years i play that game... Just don't expect to make any money in that MMO... its just a game
I also played this game back in early 2004. I admit that the game was insanely fun and definitely got your blood pumping and gave you that "rush". I tried hunting, I did mining for minerals, and I tried the crafting. Everything you do gives you a "rush" and that makes the game fun. But that rush is most likely because EVERYTHING you do is a risk. A risk of REAL CASH.
Minerals that can be mined are worth a lot to crafters, so I tried this aspect of the game first. I had to invest like $30 USD I believe just to buy the needed mining equipment and a few "bombs" as they are called. If I remember right, each bomb costs 1 PED (which is a real world dime). And you basically go randomly dropping these "bombs" all over the world and use your mining equipment to read the feedback of your "bomb" drop. 90% of the time your bomb will read NOTHING IS HERE or something like that, so you've just wasted a dime. And another dime. And another. Finally, you'll get something and it will likely be something like a "SMALL DEPOSIT OF OIL" or some other mineral. So then you use some other piece of mining equipment to mine up your discovered stuff. If you get lucky, you'll discover a "ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF POOP" or whatever mineral. And when you mine it all up, it might display to the world that 'yourname' mined 1,345 PED worth of "poop" or some bs. But more then likely, by the time you find and mine a good amount of value in minerals, you have spent double or triple or more in real cash on bombs then what you find and mine up. And going back to the same spot and waiting on a re-spawn of that mineral doesn't work. I tried that, trust me hehe.
Hunting is played in real time and is a helluva lot of fun and is the reason most players hunt. But the armor you need and the weapons are expensive and wear out and need repaired or replaced way too often and the ammo that all the weapons use is utterly ridiculous. It's easy to blow $3 to $6 worth of ammo to take down a monster and then you'll be lucky if you get 20 cents USD of loot as a prize.
Crafting is rewarding and fun to learn new blueprints etc etc to make better and cooler stuff, but it too, is VERY expensive.
I can't even recall how much I blew on this game in about a months time back in 2004. If I was to be honest, it was probably over $200 USD. And in the end I wound up with a bunch of crap that probably was worth about $10 if I had sold it all and cashed out.
The game is a lot of fun. But it is WAY too expensive to have the fan that the game almost demands you invest in. I won't deny that it is fun and a pretty well designed game.
However the real genius in the game as I've said many times on this website is that money they are sucking out of the players. Mindark is a big ugly spider waiting on fresh prey to try their game out. And the more people that play it and try it, the more blood (money) Mindark sucks from it victims. The web(the game) this spider(Mindark) has spun can easily trap its prey into a almost certain losing battle (Cause the players to get obsessed and lose way more money then they will ever get back).
They should rename this game "CHING CHING!" because that's a lot more honest and accurate name for this game, regardless of the fun to be had in it's virtual world.
- Zaxx
Wow
I never suspected the existence of such games.
But if the game is such moneysink why is it still live? The graphics are gruesome, which is no wonder, when EO has existed for so long. No improvement in textures or models since creation. Players need to pay to do basic things. What keeps the players in, at all?
EU has had a number of updates to the graphics since I have been playing but the biggest one is yet to come later this year with the move to the new CryENGINE 2 im not sure what sreenshots you have been looking at but visit EU's homepage to get some real shots of what its like.
- The game is ugly. Let's face it, bad graphics, poor sound
- It's a gamble. No matter what MA tells you, this game is and will be gamble for 99% of it's citizens
- If you are smart (or insanely lucky) you can make money. I know people who are not ubers but very hard workers (all traders to set things straight) that are living of it. It's possible but you need to invest money first and then invest a lot of time in the game itself.
- I made 2000$ in 12 months and I had a blast with my friends. It is frustrating very often, but with good friends you can havy fun even when you are not making money
So before you start putting money in you need to knoe exactly what this game is about. Do not expect WOW or AoC or EVE or something else. This is EU, it's unique in the market. It's the only game where virtual items have astronimical value and virtual landa are worth millions of dollars in real money. Sounds crazy but that's what it is.
But also be warned, golden times are over, you can not get rich now without putting a lot of money in already. Beta items like modified FAPs or Adjusted guns do not drop any more. Land prices went up by 1297192721% in the last few years, loot systems have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed many times over the years and being profitable or breaking even is not possible now for the majority of the players.
And all of the above comming from someone who made 500$ in his first run in 6 months and now 2000$ in his second run in 12 months. And I'm still playing it becouse I don't have false expectations from it.
It's a casino but I'm a professional gambler.
LMAO. I'm not calling you a liar. But seeing this just reminded me of my experience in the game. Almost everyone you run into and talk to in the game will tell you some total BS like all the money they have made or all the thousands of dollars they have made due to their "uber" skills and "mighty brains". And you just KNOW when you're playing looking at them watching them work/play that they are sooooo full of crap.
Just look at the post above. He tells you how "99% of the players" will lose money or whatever but not him, oh ofcourse not. He MADE $2,000. Lmfao. Ofcourse. He is in that special 1% (that you'll run into with 90% of the players) that have made a fortune in the game.
Pretty funny stuff. Atleast I admitted the truth that I lost over $200 USD in about a months time in the game. {winks} But I know... it's 'cuz I'm just a dumbass "Nub" and cuz you're infinately more intelligent then myself. {cough}
Hehe. Sorry, just had to point that out. I had forgot about how 90% of the players in the game will stand around broke as hell in the game but tell you how many hundreds or thousands of dollars they have made playing it. Pretty funny shit actually. Hehe.
- Zaxx
What it needs is a massive overhaul, I won't deny that. I mostly play just to talk to friends and maybe do some low budget activities
Lots of disgruntled people here... I had to register just so that I could say this.
I think much of the negativity comes from people who expected something else than what they got. EU is quite different from most other MMO's, and those who expect to become uber after a few weeks of grinding will of course be disappointed. And if you expect quests and storylines, you will also be disappointed.
EU is a game for people with money. Other MMO's gives benefits to those who spend a lot of time, EU gives benefit to those with cash. To me this is great, as I can't compete with youngsters who has nothing better to do than spend 12 hours a day in front of the computer.
And jeans does not cost $200. More like $60-70. :)
I find it amazingly silly how some complain it's a scam because it costs money.
It's a game, people. Games cost money. It's also an MMO which means it regularly costs you money. You don't really, honestly, expect to make easy money off a game, right?
By this logic, WoW and most MMOs are huge scams, after all they cost you money but give you no chance to get any back!
It doesn't necessarily cost you more money than your average MMO either.
Anyone above saying something positive about this game is just a shill for the owners. You and everyone else that plays knows for a fact this game is outright gambling in every shape and form.
Pretty sad when you stoop down so low that you can say something positive about this game, it certainly does not say much for you as a person. This game is very much like a pyramid scheme, the older players encourage younger players to play so they can make money off of them. Shame on you.
"It doesn't necessarily cost you more money than your average MMO either"
Elucca either you have never played this game or you are naive. Just playing this game like a normal MMO you can drop $50 a week into it, and that is just playing evenings. I don't know about you, but there is no game that I have found where you NEED to spend money on like this with little in return.
This game is gambling plain and simple and if you can't see that blatant fact you really need to reevaluate your value system because it is definitely off kilter.
Ignore those that try to reinforce that scam saying they made money off the game, for every 1 that does 10 don't. Typical pyramid scheme, those at the top attempt to reinforce the fact that money can be made in the game, they just neglect to tell you that most don't, but if you are foolish enough to play this game just be aware that you are throwing your money away on others.
Hmm.. I saw this thread mentioned in a EU forum and thought Id come in here and give my two pecs on the subject.
1) Entropia is not a gamble, although I see that it can be seen as one. That being said, Swedish Gambling Comitee (MindArk, the Entropia Developer is swedish) have investigated Entropia to see if its gambling or not. It wasnt.
2) Definatly not a scam. Im not sure if I should find it amusing or sad that people here that once put 20 $ in the game without making it back yells scam.
To make the money come around in EU you need dedication, creativity or intelligence - or all of the above. EU's target have always been mature players, and that for a reason. You dont need to own a landarea or have 30 000 $ in crafting skills to make the money come around, but you can't expect to play the game like you would play WoW and expect your 20$ to last. You need a different mindset.
You can relate it to being a teenager and taking on alot of stray jobs before becoming a pro at the job you want to do. There is people in Entropia that makes their living out of hunting, crafting or trading. Alot of them also do a combination of these. Taking upon such professions as hunting you'll need to be efficiant and economic, and very few can pull of acctually earning on hunting in the long run.
However, you can take the loot you got, trade the oils for the extra few % of money that brings in, do a bit of trading or some other service, to make some money back for another hunting spree.
You should also use the equipment thats most eco for the level you are currently on. I had been using the same set-up for years, until someone who plays entropia for a living told me that other some other gear would be 14% more economic for me, meaning Id be able to kill 14% more mobs for the same amount of money, meaning 14% more possibilites of loot.
What people also forget is that when you hunt, mine or craft -or other activities, you get skills. Those skills are worth money, and you can surgically chip them out later on to sell it. Most people forget this when they calculate how much they have earned/lost on a hunting/mining/crafting-spree.
There is also other ways of earning while you're not hunting, like if you're artistic you can do Make-Up, or you can upload original art and try selling that. I know some graphic designers who's made a neat amount of money making advertisement signs for shops.
There's also the free way of getting money, like collecting 'sweats' from mobs, find fruit and stones on the earth, and get oil at the oil rig (prepare to be killed alot though.) however that tends to be alot of work for little money.
I had a friend who was tired of 'losing money' in entropia. So he figured he'd sell out. When he had sold all his skills and items, he realized he had more then he ever put into the game. He PM'ed me saying "I hate them even more now", and went off to buy himself a new computer irl. He was a mid-level hunter. Or not even that.
Bottom line is, just like RL, Entropia is a challenge. But its fully possible to play without losing big bucks, or even small bucks. You just need the know-how and the will. And if you do lose a couple of bucks a month on it, then thats what you payed for the entertainment.
Regards,
Skam
Oh and btw just to make it clear. My nickname isnt Scam, its sKam (means Shame in the scandinavian languages) before anyone comments..
What?
ROFL! Dude find me ingame and I will show you my ped card. I dont care if you believe me or not. The facts that I have put out stand. Peopel are loosing money like mad in that game. And are paying huge amounts of cash for virtual items. And I did make money but I worked hard for it, I didn't gamble like the others. It has nothing to do with being intelligent, it has all to do with understanding bussiness of EU. But I'm just a small fish compared to big winners like Neverdie or Akoz or Neomaven, the big land holders.
I gave you the truth now you do with it whatever you want. I understand you being pissed off for loosing money but that is entirely your fault.
Hi there...
Just wanted to share my opinion about Entropia Universe, as a semi-long-time player.
I started ~3.5 years ago, and I still love EU, though it ofc it has it's ups and downs.
My view on EU is that it's basically a service, and you can use it in a lot of different ways, hence the many different opinions about it.
Ways to use 'the service' called EU:
Me, I'm there for the fun. Yes, it has a price, but I decide how much to spend, and I'm perfectly able to enjoy myself for a price I find reasonable. I think that if I wanted to quit and sold everything, I'd actually make a little profit, but that's not gonna happen in any foreseeable future.
The thing is that while you deposit money month after month (for the entertainment), you tend to build up more and more valuables in the game, both in the form of skills and various gear. It can be hard to control what's lost and what's still there, because it's not efficient to sell your skills, and as they build and your avatar grows, you 'bind' more and more money in your virtual life. My advice would be not to think of it as investment, but just as money paid to have fun. If you some day wanna quit entirely, you'll have a nice bonus there, but don't base your future RL economy on risky things like virtual valuables.
That ad hominem about "you're sad and can't go any lower" i'm not even going to try to answer. That's just childish.
I've played this game on and off since 2004, so i know what i'm talking about. Usually, when i'm most active, i use around 10 USD a month. I'm not contesting that you can use ridiculous amounts of money for it, but you don't have to.
Some play it like a game, others play it like a casino, a few invest. I play it as an MMO and i accept it costs me some money every month or so.
Hey, going by your pyramid scheme theory, shouldn't i be making money off the newbies since i'm a long-time player? Damn, i guess they forgot to give me my cut.
Actually, the majority of the big spenders don't make money, they use a lot. I'd never use that much but hey, if you have the money and this is where you want to spend it, i don't mind and don't really care.
Edit: Looks like EU_Vedder beat me to most of it.
Skam as Skalmanson?
If yes then he is one of the EU celebrities
Wow, drama and conspiracy theories! All in one post!
But you are right, EU can't be played as other MMO's. You must manage your money more carefully. If you keep playing like a moron after losing the first $50, perhaps you should blame yourself and not the game...?
And most people don't make money, that is also right. 95% of the players play for fun, then there's the profiting 5% that sell items and services to those players. If you call this a pyramid scheme you are making a fool out of yourself.
I can have my issues with EU and the developers, but I try to keep things in perspective. EU is not a pyramid scheme, and the players don't scam small children out of their allowance. It is possible to make money, but you have to invest both time and money to do so.
EU is different. Some people are mature enough to handle it, others are not...
No not skalman just Skam but she is also a well known and much respected player.
As for all the comments about the game been a scam and everyone that says they have not lost a massive amount of money been lairs just grow up people. Yes some people lose money some lots of money but this but there are lots of people who only put in a small amount each month and get along just fine by playing the game using the right gear for there skills and in the case of hunting going for the right lvl of mobs. I have never had a big loot and I never play expecting one I just enjoy the game and play for fun. Going off what the value of my account is now I have doubled what I have paid to play so far but i have not made any money out of the game as I have no intention of selling or withdrawing money from the game. Its just to much fun.
If I started ~3.5 years ago I'm sure I would be still loving it as well.
Its is like a casino. No matter what you do in the game, even sweating, you are not guaranteed a profit. Its all on chance. The reason the globals and hall of fames are broadcast are to keep people playing in hopes that they will get lucky. The more money your deposit doesn't mean your luck will go up any at all.
And don't get me started on Club Neverdie. The company gave a B celebrity a ton of cash and simulated an auction, disconnected the server when it was about to end, etc etc... It was all a marketing gimmick. Yeah don't give up but keep depositing.
I'm not bitter either, I withdrew about 70% of what I put in before I stopped. It definitely has the compulsive/gambling feeling.
You have to love low post wonders defending their game. You can call it what you please, but the game is gambling pure and simple. If you play this game and you can't recognize you have a gambling addiction I feel sorry for you.
Sorry I have seen first hand what gambling does to people, it is not a pretty sight.
Call this game a MMO is strictly a front, it is exactly the scam it is reported to be. Calling someone respected in this game is like calling a mad dog, nice.
Skam as in Skam indeed ;) Im definatly not Skalman.
Um, what? If you managed to make a loss on sweating, you're doing something very very very wrong.
When I started out the game, I was 17 years old and didn't have a creditcard. I spent my first months hunting with 500 ammo a round (=5 ped = 0.5 $) when I wasnt chatting or running errands or doing so-called "running". Thats how I earned my first armor set. :) It wasnt worth much, but it was a profit.
Sweating is completely free to do. You dont only earn sweat, you also get evade skills and other attribute skills that is worth some if you get enough to chip it out later on. On entropiaforum there has been a couple of threads like "Sweat yourself to a mastercoat" etc, where people have succeded sweating enough to be able to buy themself a piece of garment worth 1000 Peds.
Thats $100 pure profit, without taking into concideration all the evade skills he'd earn from that aswell.
It took him a while, but he proved it to be possible. I have a few society (same as guild/clan..etc.) friends of mine that regulary go sweating when they are low on Peds.
Myself I find it horribly, terribly boring. I make some extra cash by doing Make-Up masks.
(Ped= Project Entropia Dollars. 100 PED = 10 $)
As for the poster above me
I find it quite funny that you think you know better then the swedish gambling commition, too ;) They have been investigated for gambling and pyramid schemes and guess what, they were found innocent.
Like I mentioned earlier though, Entropia is for grown-ups who cares for a proper challenge and has the know-how to make it.
Im sorry you kids didnt make it in there, but at the end of the day, you only have yourself to blame, as there is so many ways to make it in Entropia.
How would showing me how many PEDs you've made in the game prove how much money you've made? That wouldn't prove crap because you could have easily invested ten times more then you currently have as a balance in the game. But I know.. just like all the other people unwilling to face the truth and likely their own gambling..err I mean Entropia Universe Addiction, you'll tell me you invested only $10 or some other total outright lie.
Call it what you want. This game is WORSE then gambling. Atleast with a slot machine, you can see its a simple gambling device. People use Entropia Universe to basically gamble, and it IS nicely disguised as a game, so people USE that as an EXCUSE. "Oh, it's no big deal that I've BLOWN $5,000 buying PEDS for this game one day I'm gonna strike it rich" must be a line people actually convince themselves of in this game.
It's hard for real world gamblers to admit their gambling addiction, and I can easily see that this game is ever bit as bad... actually it's probably WORSE. Again, this is the brilliance of Mindark as I said in my first post in this thread above. They have created a monster which only feeds peoples own addictive behavior and they are sitting back making a fortune off of peoples natural addictive behavior.
See look at the guys post in response to me. He acts like he spent way less then what he has made in the game. I'm calling BULLSHIT. Then he acts like I and the thousands of players who at least admit to losing money for a short time in this game "idiots" or something by saying "Yeh I'd be mad too if I lost money in the game". All I can say to this is whatever man. The sooner you admit to yourself how much you're pouring into this game VS what you are actually getting in return, the better off you'll be. If you wanna pay $100 or $200 or $500 a month or w/e you spend for an online game, that's perfectly fine and your choice. But atleast be honest with yourself and stop trying to act like because of your super intelligence blah blah blah that you are making mad $$ playing this virtual casino mmo.
- Zaxx
Originally posted by admriker4
Ikavadas, I'm sorry to say it, but it prooves only the fact that EU is not for you and even if you have tried it, you did not do it properly. This is a game that requires thinking for yourself, patience, sticking to your goals and achieving them. And you are wrong, you do not have to buy a land area or thousands of crafting skills to make profit from this game. Bah, even buying a land doesn't mean you will be making money on this game if you do not manage it properly. Nothing is granted, so if you are not able to make a living for your avatar in game it means you did something in wrong way or you have no idea what this game is about.Im confused. I thought the game was free to play ? It sounds like the perfect MMO Ive been searching for ever since Star Wars Galaxies changed.
Entropia is free to play in the meaning that you can download the client for free and play for free too. You can deposit money, but noone forces you to do so. I can deposit when I want or need it and this is just beautifull. If I do not have money to deposit, I can do hundreds various things ingame.
I used to deposit in the past and will be depostining in the future. But for example did no single depo since April 2008 (that's almost 2 months by now) and noone locked my account or smthn like this. Decision if you want to deposit is yours and yours only. All depends on how good your imagination is and what a kind of game you want to play. If you want to be the best equipped and highest skilled avatar it can take a couple of years to catch the top players. Or lots of $ if you want to be there faster. But you don't have to be actually the most skilled avatar in this game to enjoy it. You can be succesfull even when your skills are much lower. It's al about what your goals are and what you want to achieve.
I know ingame movie makers, traders, event organisers and also hunters and miners who are basically playing for free. I know also people who were withdrawing money from EU and it was enough to buy a new, state of the art computer. This is the best part of this all. If you decide to quit the game, you can exchange all your skills, items and estates into USD send directly to your bank account. I'm not saying that you will buy yourself a small tropical island for it, but most likely after a while and with some luck you will be able to buy yourself something like high end PC and similar stuff. There are also people who make a living in this game, but true, they have spend few years to achieve this or invested large sums of money before.
And no, you do not have to pay a single penny to be able to survive, get ammo for your hunting or probes for mining. I played almost 2 years from my 3 ingame without even a single deposit. Now I am forced by RL circumstances to not to deposit again, yet I'm able to have 500 peds on my ped card most the time. Yes, I do not have Skallman's (mentioned by someone here) skills nor eqiupement, but I'm still able to handle 90% of creatures and find 90% of resources.
20$ is not an investment mate. It's trying something. Try going to your bank and tell them that you are willing to "invest" 20$... I wonder what money you will make from this. And that's a shame that you quit back then, my society mate who has been playing since about the same year is now selling some stuff she obtained in the past and she doesn't need anymore... She will make about 4000 USD from this... And this is about how much you lost because of not playing EU since you started an account... You have to pump nothing unless you want to. And yes, even in RL you won't make any money without investing money in the beginning, unless you either rob someone or winn a lottery. EU is not a lotery nor gambling, so why it should be different here. If you want to make real money, you need to invest real money. Trying it out requires not even a single buck spend. Just a bit of patience. Unless you mean by trying out running in the most expensive armor, with the most expensive weapon and after having skills like person who spend 5 years playing this game. Looks like your expectations were just to high or you really ahd a bad mentor or no clue what to do in this game.And no, skills do matter. You had 2000 in rifle or pistol only or in all combat related skills (including evade, athletics and such)? If it's the second case, you have been probably playing for a week or so. It's really not much to learn something about EU. Shame you did not get decent mentor or you were not listening his advices...
Yes, there are Limited items these days, and yes, they can't be rpaired. We can argue how realistic or unrealistic it is, but nowadays Limited items have one good function: they allow you to compete with higher skilled and equipped in expensive stuff guys without having to wait for 5 years until you catch them. Not mentioning, that there still are decent and rather cheap unlimited items you can use and that will be enough for 90% of avatars.
Sweating causes no decay. If it costs you, it means you use armor for that, which you shouldn't do. Plus, if you sweat in proper places you will be supported by other participants: hunters, who will kill creatures that have no more sweat, thus saving your life, focusers, who will make sure you do not loose concentration during sweating, thus saving your time, healers, who will heal you if something kills you anyway. So if you want to gather sweat properly, you have to do it in certain places too.Shoting can cost you as many peds as you want. You choose your weapon, you choose how much ammo you shoot, you choose what creatures you shoot with this weapon.
EU is not gambling. If you play smart, you won't be feeding any slot machine, but you will cycle money you have through the device allowing you to get better skills, better gear, better loot...
It's not the game fault if someone is crazy gambler. If someone lost anything playing this game, it was entirely decision of that person. And such person is the one to blame. Yes, noone will prevent you from selling your house and depositing the money ingame and spending it on hunting or mining... You will have lot's of fun probably, but if you don't think it out carefully, you won't get anything more than fun. It is your choice how to spend money ingame and if you want to waste them or not. If you are a gambler type, you can probably loose that money anyway, in any online game on the market... Yes, even subscription based one, bu buying virtual items on auctions for example. Reasons are simple. 1st, many players think that they did something good that will give them profit. Which is speculation actually. 2nd, all you buy or do in game is some kind of investment. I can for example cash out and get more than I ever deposited in this game. Which means it is kind of investmentas it gave some profit. Real invesments made with real money are: buying a land area (small scale) or buying and asteroid, like Neverdie did. Witha small money you will make smaller investments, means you will have smaller profit. So what? World doesn't contain only Bill gates and The Mass of Rest, there are many stages between Gates and owner of a fish shop in Africa... Don't expect plz, that you will instantly become a new Gates, better find yourself some place in between and maybe if you stick to the goal of becoming as rich as Gates is, you will find yourself equal him someday... Plus, what is different in buying Limited item and selling it with profit from buying unlimited item and selling it with profit? I'm not reselling stuff ingame, but I think you get profit from both selling limited items and unlimited items. The difference is only if you actually use these items. But in RL, when you use the car for X months, you rather do not expect to sell it for exactly the same price you bought it, do you? And if you are just selling cars, without using them, what is the difference if it is blue or red? Once again, you do not have to spend even a single penny. There is no difference if you get ped in loot or resources. Well, actually there is one difference: resources have some markup peds didn't have. It's not much markup, but always something. Better for you if you are a crafter, as you can get things you need just from loot, below market prices. It's better for you if you are a hunter, because you can sell it with markup and get some more peds for your loot. It's the matter of patience and saving your looted stuff or finding a buyer who will buy any ammount of them with some markup. Belive me, it's not that difficult.Yes, oldest avatars are making largest sums. But it's what you were asking for: bigger profit for your hard work. They worked several years for it.
Once again, the more money you spend in game, the more money you will make. But it is up to you if you want to spend them or not. Try going to your bank with 10$ and telling them you want it to be 1000$ next month, I wonder what they say... In EU it actually can become 1000$ next month if you are lucky. If you are not, it will take some more time...
And finally someone who understood EU... It's not about making money like in Vegas casino, with one lucky tosiing the dice, yet it is possible to be just lucky one. It's about constant progress of your skills and not paying for the game. Everything you gathered in game, including your skills can be sold and you can withdraw the money, so they are actually paying you for your time online. No, you do not get 1000$ extra money monthly, unless you want to invest some real money here. But you are being paid for your free time and for your fun. Without having to sell your items on ebay to get something valuable.Dilletti, if your skills were worth 750$ this means you were veteran yourself...
HawkwoodEU.. ANOTHER 1 post guy that comes trotting in here defending this game.
You're whole defense of EU can be COMPLETELY DISCREDITED based on your insanely idiotic statement that "putting money into EU is just like putting money in a bank where you can withdraw it back anytime".
That line of logic is so untrue and such a steaming pile of outright LIE crap that I can smell the stench from here.
Then you really go off the deep end saying that "the more real money you invest, ofcourse the faster you'll make money"
Do you just work for MindArk, or are you really buried that deep in despair and hopelessness to make such statements and actually believe what you say??
Pathetic.
- Zaxx
I will not even comment calling me an idiot, as it only shows the emotional and intelectuall level of some disputants...
But ok, I will post once more, to not to be "1 post guy defending EU".
I won't defend EU completely. As I mentioned, every avatar has better and worse times. And ofc I would prefer to have only those better times. And yes, EU is addictive. But not more addictive than any other MMOG I played so far. Addictive, baceuse it's fun and excitement. Just like fun and excitement is looting some high end sword in any fantasy universe, getting a global or hof or uber item in loot in EU is very exciting.
Now facts.
1. I deposited in EU about 2000$ during 3 years (most last year anyway).
2. Real value of my skills and gear I have in game is about the same. Maybe slightly more, maybe slightly less, it depends on current market prices. Last time I checked I have found out that I can get about the same anytime I deposited in this game.
3. Most of MMORPGs require monthly subscription which I HAVE to pay without a choice other than not playing the given game. In EU I am the person who decides how much and how often I want to deposit, plus I can play without deposits at all.
4. If I decided that I need to cash out, MA will pay me the money I have in game. So actually having fun online I already have earned enough to buy myself state of the art computer, few years old car, house elctronics or something like this. And without going to work, just having the fun with friends, doing what I would do anyway in my free time: playing the game.
5. If I decide that I want to quit RL work, EU gives me possibilities to make a living from this game. Yes, I would have to make an investment, but if I wanted for example to get rid of my boss and start my own company IRL, I would have to make such investment too.
All "defenders" above are right that EU player has to be just mature. It's not game for everyone, definetely not for teenagers living in their soap bulb, thinking that they can become rich and famous just with one snap of their fingers. You can not. It's not a dream or fairy tale. If you want to succeed, you have to be realistic and work hard to achieve it. That's what EU requires: working hard and sticking to your goals.
Ah, about bank account, I will explain it as it seems to be not easy to understand.
When you start bank account, it works basically like this: you put there money, bank is investing your money, you get some profits from it too. Am I wrong? I don't think so. If you withdraw your money, leaving almost no cash on your account, your bank will be able to make only much smaller profits from your money. If you place a bigger sum there, they will be able to invest more, thus making bigger profit for themselves and you too.
Here comes EU. You deposit some money and if you invest them wisely, you will make some profit. If you deposit more, you can rotate bigger ammount of money, invest in more profitable things and make bigger profit. Just like in RL bank. The profit you are able to make depends on ammount of money your are able to invest. But, to make any profit from the RL bank you actually have to give them money. In EU you can choose not to deposit and pay with your free time.
I didn't call EU a bank account, I just compared it to bank account to let all who never actually played or understood EU to understand it now. As an example, parabola. But it looks like I overestimated ability to understand even simple things by some people. I hope you will understand them eventually when you will reach the age allowing you to buy a beer in the pub. Otherwise you have already wasted your lives, I'm, affraid...
What I find interesting is the topics of investment and earning money from this title.
But yet, providing the same amount of time, energy, work and even money will provide greater results in the real world. How so? Using such resources to buy properties to improve one's passive income (no, it is not flipping houses).
Which is why I do not participate in this title. I pay to play games for fun, not .... for work.
I never called you an idiot. I said you made "idiotic" statements. BIG difference.
I atleast thank you for coming back with an intelligent and non deceptive response.
The fact is that playing EU and having fun is MUCH more expensive if you were to figure it out per hour then paying $15 for a traditional style mmo. You can EASILY dump $15 and be spent and out of ammo and have broken armor in less then an hour, where a traditional mmo you'll have a full month of game time.
- Zaxx
Noone prohibits you from having fun in EU. It is fun, but you get some nice bonus too which you do not get in other MMOGs
I am able to cycle even hundreds of USD in EU, but what for? I used to cycle about 20$ per month, now I do not deposit at all. Temporarily probably, have more important expenses IRL and probably will be depositing in the future again. Still, decision when and if to do this is mine only.
15$ per month is enough for having fun in EU, especially that you do not need even this. It's just the matter of "fun" term and it's definition. If fun for you means killing hundreds of monsters around some village, than EU is not for you. Here you will have to make good choices of what to do with this money and find some fun which does not need money at all. There are lots of things one can do in EU without money (usually without making any profits too, but if you use your RL skills, you will be able to make some profit without peds too). EU is demanding and challenging games, requires creativity from participants. If someone can't be creative and can't find anything to do ingame, obviously it's not the place for him.
But for some reason EU has plenty of active players. Yes, we sometimes complain about some things on entropia forum, but we still play. Most of us having fun - those who do not have fun in this game usually just sell all their posessions and cash out. And I don't think EU community is kinda masochistic one and that we are all allowing MA just to scam us all the time. The playerbase is quite stable, there are still players who started few years ago and they are still having fun. It all means that EU is just a well made piece of work. Well made not for MA only, but for us, participants too...
Do you also feel sorry for everyone drinking beer, since they are alcoholics?
One lovely thing about EU is that there are few to no 12 year old squakers playing them game, the community is probably one of the best out of any game I've played because, like mentioned by Skam (who is not the person from Warants lol), they are mature and want civilized game play.
I've played about 3 years now and actively take part in the game/community as much as I can. Myself, like many, like looking at ourselves as Pioneers in what is still a very grey zone of gaming. There aren't many titles that are like this one but if you look into it you'll find many about to pop up in the next few years.
The game is doing ground breaking things and it's that thrill that keeps up playing. We all want to be the first wave of people who got to experience world changing gaming. Try doing that in WoW (which don't get me wrong, I also play it but it has done all it can do.)
I have no lost money in EU. I've managed it properly and do have more then I have deposited, while not alot more but it's still more and I'm getting to the point where I can see how to make more.
You grow to like the players, and the players are a large part of the entertainment of EU. While many trying and push the boundries of what we can do and create and Mindark watch and listen. It may not always seem that way but they do.
Yes, there aren't any quests but that could change -- you never know. They game doesn't intend to go away anytime soon and wont because players will always hold interest in games with RCE economies.
There is a bit of learning involved, to start really having fun with EU but there are many different types of fun to be had as well.
- Dustin Encicra Parker
I agree.
People who started playing back 3+ years ago have an immense advantage over new players starting today. New players today cannot experience or catch up to veterans who had different advantages from years before. The company keeps making changes to skill gain, loot, etc to slow people down. I think the game is pretty interesting but the vets selling items at obscene prices do not help. I know people who have been playing for a really long time and "invested" thousands of dollars should have an advantage but the game as it stands now is ridiculous. I just wanted to try different things out but to do that you need to buy items and some of the prices are astronomical. If someone started out years ago and leveled something hard like coloring up pretty high why would a newer player have to pay extra to achieve the same thing?
The idea of "to have fun you are going to have to pay" is a bit extreme. I know its a simulated economy but damn!
Ah right, fun. Depends on the diffinition of what "fun" is.
I do not like competing with players over real money, I prefer to do so in the real world. In a “game” environment, real money should have less impact as it carries over real world issues and events. If real money is being used, might as well use a taxation system (and why stop there?). People do play games as a means to escape from the real world issues, but with systems which incorporate real money directly into the system's economy, then that escape is dampened; hence not fun, but work.
There may be slow down with gaining skills, but most of these "slowdowns" are the matter of balancing and adjusting the project that is supposed to last for years. Plus, MA releases new items, which can be used by less skilled players to compete with the more skilled/seasoned ones. Noone forces you to buy Improved MK2 for 150k ped (if u even could find any to buy), you can get almost as good gun spending just few bucks on L one. Not mentioning that you don't actually need that powerfull gun for 99% of mobs. Yes, for special professions, like player killer, you would need uber gear and at least mid level skills, but to be a normal hunter you do not need anything above average. And you do not actually need to have skills like Skalman or Jenna Star Mercury or Neomaven to be able to just wipe out everything on your way with new weapons and wearing new armors.
To help provide an even field for veterans and new players, a taxation system should be put into effect. Tax on the rich players, and provide "refunds" to the poorer players. Institute a "government program" to provide aid to new and poor players. After all real money is being used, so real world economic models should be incorporated. That would help provide an incentive for new players to join and maybe even stay with it. Seems that EU's economy is pure Capitalism, so it could use some regulation to it.
EU is a game which requires discipline and teaches discipline too...
I got to toss the BS Flag here. You counter that his statement is BS, but yet you do not know how those "avatars" have performed better. Could be by putting in more real money, or by buying other accounts with transfers. Could be the same person, with different accounts.
Noone forces you to buy Improved MK2 for 150k ped (if u even could find any to buy), you can get almost as good gun spending just few bucks on L one. Not mentioning that you don't actually need that powerfull gun for 99% of mobs. Yes, for special professions, like player killer, you would need uber gear and at least mid level skills, but to be a normal hunter you do not need anything above average. And you do not actually need to have skills like Skalman or Jenna Star Mercury or Neomaven to be able to just wipe out everything on your way with new weapons and wearing new armors.
F2P Sales Speech Package #8
Seriously, it's ridiculous to call it a scam. It's your fault if you expect to make easy money off a game.
And because i use under 10 euros a month to play it, i have a gambling addiction? Oookay... I still say i play it as a game. It's pretty much "Choose your own subscription fee".
Why are you attacking the game anyway? It's not like you're going to play it since you hate it from the start.
Don't get me wrong I admire many of the players who have been there for years. I'm just saying this. As a new player looking in and seeing the economy, slow skill gain, random loot, L items it seems like newer players are at an immensely greater disadvantage. The company looks like its doing everything in its power to hinder player progress and encourage them to deposit more and more money. It would be nice to accomplish something like the older players with the same advantage as they had.
Other games you can experience the same gameplay as others who have been playing for years. Games like WoW that has made leveling even faster(don't know if thats a good thing though) or EvE where player skills are auto-trained. Other games don't take too long to catch up to experienced players and skills and items are not long since forgotten and are attainable with reasonable gameplay if you want them. Everyone has a fair chance. Many times the game companies make changes that actually help the players enjoy the game more.
Entropia is not the same kind of fun as other games, also it does not have the same BANG for your BUCK as other games...
One day I hope EU would get a complete restructure, but it would never happen
As I stated above, I was not depositing since the beginning. I played over one year without deposits at all. Later deposited and now I do not deposit again. (still, I'm free to do not to deposit, noone will punish me for this, bear it in your mind please)
I had few months of break ingame after first year of playning, when I could not play. Means I lost few months of raising my skills and upgrading my gear.
No, they are no avatars made by the same person. There is no point of creating several avatars in EU. You can't sell them. Yes, you can sell skills, equipment, but not your avatar. Skilling with several avatars will lead you to nowhere too, because if you would like to transfer skills from one avatar to another you would loose some of these skills. Skilling needs time, so there is no point of sharing your time between many avatars. You will not get more skills this way. You just have to focus on one ava and preferably one type of skills at a time. Buying skills on the market from other avas is just cheaper than having another avatar for skilling. There are also people in EU who regularly sell their skills and play for the money they get this way.
Why some avas could be more succesfull than me? For example they did something better than I or wiser. There is no official guide telling you: "if you go and shoot X ammount of X creatures at X hours, you will get 1k ped". You need to learn yourself what you should do and adapt to circumstances. Maybe I wasn't adapting fast enough. Yes, they could have deposited more than me, so having more money to cycle they received higher reward. Some of them might have used exploits ingame. Some could have used bots for skilling (yes, like in every online game there are players in EU who do not play fair) and noone caught them doing so. Some of them could trade more than I (which is not difficult, as I do not trade at all) and make some profit from this, which allowed them to get better gear. Some of them were probably just lucky.
Don't really understand what do you mean by saying F2P Sales Speech Package #8? I'm just telling you the truth. Yes, there are uber items that are far beyond the reach of not only average player, but even quite wealthy and seasoned one. But, at the same time MA introduses new items, which minimize or remove the gap. At the moment you can have a gun as good or close to be as good as gun for 150k peds and use it effectively. Yes, there is a catch that you won't be able to repair it, but you can always buy the next one. Not paying 150k peds for it, belive me. Someone complained about limited items introduced ingame. And I'm an oldfashioned player, preferred unlimited ones. But still I can see how usefull Limited items can be for average player. Not for the one who plays since 2003, but for someone who plays even few months...
Link to the EU Forum on mmorpg.com: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/category/218
It's true that far the majority of people spend more money than they get back, but that's the same for all MMOs.
You should play EU for the fun imo.
Pay as much as you think the fun is worth to you, or play for free if you don't like paying at all. If you don't have fun, then quit. Simple as that.
You obviously don't like EU. Most people who hate EU as much as you, came to EU thinking they could win some easy money, and get very disappointed.
That's ofc not the right reason to start playing EU, and it's really kinda stupid if you think about it. Only your own stupidity to blame if that's why you hate it.
Kinda lame too, to spread lies about it being a scam.
But I guess 'high post wonder' on this forum doesn't really mean your have any credibility. Sad sad, but now that I've stated my opinion, I don't really care anymore.
I'll just go back to 'my game' and have some fun.
bb
/Vedder
I completely disagree that Entropia Universe is "gambling" or a "casino".
Casinos have SET RULES that NEVER CHANGE so the gambler plays against the odds and nothing else.
Entropia does not have set rules and the developers are able to change the odds at their whim, it's like going to a casino that has loaded dice or marked cards.
The end result is that EU is a scam/money pit and only those that have put in tremendous amounts of money ever reap any reward.
EU is only for people with very LARGE disposable incomes that can throw away thousands of dollars on entertainment.
If throwing away thousands of dollars is something you are financially comfortable with then EU could be entertaining, but I have to ask myself why anyone, that isn't a wealthy shut-in, would want to spend thousands of dollar on a "virtual world" that isn't graphically good looking and offers very little in the way of "game play" ?
This is hands down one of the most absurd posts I've ever seen on this forum.
All MMOs? Ahem, B.S., sir. EU is the only MMO I've ver heard of which absolutely forces me to invest RL cash just so I can subsist ingame and play casually. When I pay $15.00 a month for a sub fee I know that no matter how broke my character is at least I can have fun.
In EU? Absolutely not. I can sit around sweating animals for about 50 PED an hour or I can throw away a few RL dollars on PED so I can buy something as simple as ammunition for hunting or bombs for mining but no matter how lucky you are the average player, or not even average, more like nearly every new player, is going to lose, lose, lose, lose, and lose that cash.
Without a "big score" you can't support yourself. That's why this is game is nothing but a pyramid scam online casino. It's an absolute racket and I hope it goes under. Not to mention MindArk has done it's utmost to not fix bugs and change the loot rules every five seconds to keep screwing over all of the new marks they keep scamming out of RL money.
This game is trash anyways. FFS, you can't even smoothly walk in this game (your toon rubberbands like a mofo every single time you move irregardless of lag). This game is pathetic, the people who play it are pathetic, and most of all MindArk is pathetic.
Here's a pro-tip to the EU defenders: deposits into a game are not investments. Investment schemes have their risks on front explained, their average expected rate of return, their legal liabilities (for you and them (those seeking your investment) to you), and other such properties. Depositing a few bucks into EU is no different than having a credit account with a casino. You can win big one day and cash out, and you can lose big another where you're down to zero and the house won't forward you anymore to your account. This difference is what irks people with regard to EU, especially MA's line that one can win big. But they never produce the actual percentages of break-even. Even my state lottery tickets have a percentage that I can find out, either on the ticket or from the lottery office. I can even ask a random casino what will be my percentages of break-even at a given game (especially slots). MA with EU does not provide this data, and thus make their dealings very shady, regardless of if you believe in governmental regulation or not (I don't, I'm a market anarchist...). I don't deal with gambling institutions that don't tell me their percentages, not because I'm trying to win big, but because I want all the information on the table as to know that they're not cheating by changing the games (especially slots) odds in the house favor beyond what is alloted by design.
-- Brede
Most people who complain about Entropia seem to have done no research what so ever.
Of course an online game will not make you rich if you don't understand it.
This quote is taken from the company behind Entropia, Mindark's, homepage: "The normal service fee for an active user lies between 0.5 and 1.5 USD per hour."
If you play PvE the system is designed to COST you on average $1 per hour. They are OPEN about it. If you haven't taken the time to find it out, your loss. But pleeeeease don't come crying afterwards.
The beautiful thing about Entropia is that it is a MARKET where people with litte time but with lots of money can compete on equal terms with those with much time and no money. The people who has become rich in Entropia ENGAGE on this market and trade and deal with OTHER PLAYERS. If you ONLY play PvE against the "system" you will lose a buck an hour. That is why you almost never should sell thing back to Mindark, instead you should try to sell stuff at a markup. Like a free economy.
People screaming about scams are just ignorant to the facts presented. Players get their real life money when they withdraw from Entropia. There are many, many examples of this.
If Entropia was a complete scam like some of you suggest, WHY THE HELL do this still exist as a popular online game after release over five years ago? They make money and have pleased customers.
If you want to have more in-depth figures and financials it is all publicly available on the Mindark webpage: www.mindark.com
And exactly how many current and active users does this "popular" game have?
And not how many accounts, but active current users.
Some play for fun, some play for the lure of fat cash.
Why do millions of people gamble? For exactly the same reason.
Do you seriously think MindArk would seriously release that sort of information anymore? They stopped in August 2005.
Man you got some serious issues, don't you?
I made clean 2000$ on this game by hard work, out of an initial investment of 300$. But I'm aware its a money pit for most players. And that's it, no hidden agendas, no hidden intentions. In fact, I strongly suggest all who have gambling problems to stay out of EU as I have seen people blow away 1000s of peds in one day on a bad luck streak.
End of story.
But you should start working on your social skills as they suck big time. Saying to me that I'm talking bullshit just becouse you lost money in EU is BULLSHIT itself. Get a chill-pill and stick with WOW.
Oh EU is not "popular" when compared to WOW or AoC. Even EVE surpases number of active players.
But I know you can see 100 people in neas or sweat camp at any time of the day, mostly noobs. I also am a member of the soc with 15 people who are active daily. I would say some 4000-5000 people are very active players and another 5000 is semi-active. If I was to go trough all the high-activity areas like Twin, PA, Nea and sweatcamp, and then check up on all the high activity hunting areas like argo lands above Twin and CP, and then check CND for active miners and hunters I would think I could count 1000-1500 people who are there for all to see.
But I could be wrong as MA never realeases official numbers (or any other usefull information at all, they are very secretive) and EU world is big (for 5000 people that is).
Hi Skam, Vedder, Nytewolf, Sarah, Kaiser, etc
And hi to everyone who's been here for ages as well
Yes, my first post here too and for the same reason. And, as an EU player of over two years now, I have to say that almost every post in this thread *can* be true. While I have some issues with MindArk (the developers), overall I have to say that I enjoy playing, I enjoy the friends that I have met through playing and I enjoy the time I spend there.
The option to deposit RL money has advantages and disadvantages - if you lose the amount you deposit for the month in the first week then yes, you're broke for the rest of the month. But if you want to take a break for a month or two, you don't have to pay for that month just to keep your hard-won account. You can choose whether or not to deposit and how much. You can tailor your expenses to suit your pocket. You have that choice. I'm on a low budget, I can't afford to deposit large amounts so I stick with what I can afford and play at that level.
MindArk is a business, not a charity. They have to pay their electricity bill, staff wages, etc. They have to make a profit or they go under and they chose to go with the micropayments option rather than monthly fee one. That's just the way it is - some people will prefer it, others won't.
'Sweating' the mobs (gathering a resource called 'Vibrant Sweat') is boring but free. Let's face it - if it was fun, no-one would move on from that. And of course you will get attacked by the mobs while doing it, and your avatar will die. Often. Big deal. Revival is free, you don't lose experience, items or anything else except health - which regenerates with time - and you gain skills which are very useful later on when you start hunting. These skills can also be 'chipped out' and sold so you can make money from putting in $0.00 in RL terms. It also gives you a chance to try the game for free (without a time limit) and decide whether you like it and want to continue playing. Do any other MMOs offer that?
And while we're on the subject, wearing armour to sweat the mobs is pointless. Of course it will decay when you get hit by the mobs - that's what it does - and the decay will eat up the profit you make from sweating. And with no Evade skill you will get hit a lot. So you start by building up your Evade by sweating, then when you start hunting the mobs will hit you less often because you already have some Evade skill!
To anyone wanting to try EU and see what all the fuss is about, I'd recommend the following, in this order:
I look forward to hopefully seeing some new faces ingame
Best regards
Molly 'Red' Macguire
Captain
Pyrates of Calypso
Nothing like making false statements to make this game seem innocuous.
If you don't get it by now, they want you to feed the game money, it just means more for them.
Anyone who says you can play this game without spending any money is basically lying through their teeth. About the only thing you can do freely is wander around aimlessly.
Saying anything positive about this game just marks you are a shill for Mindark, one of the more dispicable developers out there.
Point 2: You say that feeding the game means I will get more back. I'd like to hear how you reach this conclusion. Do you mean that MA will somehow reward me for posting my experiences on this forum?
Point 3: It's a cheap shot to call someone a liar from behind the safety and anonymity of your internet connection. What I don't see is anything more than your opinion . Care to give me something to support that opinion?
Point 4: To consider that everyone who has something positive to say about EU is simply 'a shill for MA' is naive and simplistic at best. You present as someone who hasn't enjoyed the little time they spent there and who couldn't or wouldn't see that there are positive as well as negative aspects to EU - the same as everything else.
Rather than throwing out blanket assertions about 'everybody' or 'everything', try addressing yourself to the actual issues that concern you. And give some evidence or experience to back up these assertions. If you have any.
People mentioning the game being a scam got me thinking. Is Mindark doing the following?
A confidence trick, confidence game, or con for short (also known as a scam) is an attempt to intentionally mislead a person or persons (known as the mark) usually with the goal of financial or other gain. The confidence trickster, con man, scam artist or con artist often works with an accomplice called the shill, who tries to encourage the mark by pretending to believe the trickster.
Sometimes I get the feeling that Neverdie is the shill because he tries to make you believe you will get financial gain while there are long time players have never gained anything. Why wouldn't he explain to players that in order to experience the game to the fullest they might need to deposit, not invest, large amounts of money.
Is it misleading for them to say the game and software are free to play, but once you get into the game and discover its mechanics other players have inflated expensive items and they are not attainable unless you deposit large amounts of money? Sure you can have fun and not deposit but if you want to try other professions you are forced to deposit large sums of money. This is misleading and does not seem balanced to me. Everyones perception of fun is different but having to deposit more money to have more fun does not seem like a game to me and Mindark should not call it a game so much.
MindArk does have problems when it comes to marketing the game, which we can see very clearly in this thread for example. Some people who had the wrong idea about EU when they tried it become very bitter and hostile, and this in turn creates a lot of negative publicity. MA should focus more on showing the gaming aspects of EU instead of how much money you can make.
A part of what creates this problem is that the media (naturally) focus on the spectacular aspects of EU, like the fact that there are people making money in it. The article this thread is based on is a good example. They interview Buzz, one of the most well known players in EU, who has spent insane amounts of money and time on the game and is one of very few who can withdraw large sums of money. He is hardly the average EU player.
Here's a good interview with MA-Frank.
Even though the interviewer is clueless ("can you play against your friends in this game?" No, it's the first single player MMOG... ffs...), I think Frank does a good job. He is hardly scamming or misleading anyone.
Yeah, I played this. Look, it's not a scam, per se, as they do deliver the promised gaming experience, they disclose everything..but, the deck is stacked. It's a setup for you to lose money. You WILL deposit, if you want to have fun, because sweating is about as fun as having your balls stuck in a vise. It's possible to make money, but, hey, it's also possible angelina jolie will leave brad pitt for me, but I don't think it's gonna happen
Unless you have a lot of time and disposable income, don't bother.
I'm sorry, but not everyone who sees MA and EU for what it is "...had the wrong expectations." I sat there and scoured over the EU forum site for weeks before I even started. I had a great mentor to help me along. I knew what I should have been doing. In fact, if you ask my former mentor (Poisonhearts, a pretty respected member of the community) what my goal was when I started it was to plunk down my initial investment and then basically pay into EU the cost of the average subscription per month (I was willing to ratchet it up to twenty a month because I was desperate for a sandbox).
I threw down an initial investment, bought my pixie armor, my opalo carbine, and my TT mining reader and mineral extractor. Every last cent I had thereafter went to ammo and bombs. Mostly bombs.
I spent 25% of my time hunting and 75% mining. I knew full well that hunting would be a losing proposition from research (I hunted those dinosaur and octopus looking things in that northern area which basically looked like it had a bunch of dicks growing out of the ground). I knew full well that resource spawns apparently followed no observable pattern of spawn (like there won't be a vein of a certain resource that you can key on) and that for some reason people said mining on the coasts was the best (this is indeed confirmed by a huge amount of people on the EU Forum site).
I never once bought any upgrades over the course of the month and a half I played this game. The equipment I have on my toon right now is the same equipment I had first purchased when I entered the game world. I had every expectation and knew full well I had to manage my money wisely.
End result? I made it about a week on my thirty dollars. I rarely ever died. I explored around to get the various teleporters. I never once paid any taxes for private land use. I never bought anything nice. Every last cent went towards bombs and power cells.
What did I have to show for it after my thirty bucks of PED ran out? Dick. How people can defend this game as anything but a gambling racket is beyond me. How does a dime slot machine work? You put in a dime, pull the lever, and hope for the best. How does mining work? You buy a bomb (the dime), drop it (pull the lever), and hope for the best (hope for the best).
I feel absolutely retarded that EU scammed me out of about seventy bucks but at least I realized what this game was before it was too late. And if I couldn't make it, after all of that research, having hard copies of continental maps at my disposal (basically the same care and forethought I put into SWG which is pretty substantial) what chance does an average player have?
That's why this is a casino. Intelligent approach means nothing and gets you nowhere. You either have a massive amount of PED banked that you can invest into something which will easily provide returns (basically any piece of land in the game will pay for itself over time pretty easily if you're not retarded and just keep it stocked with game) or you hit a few big payouts through sheer luck when hunting or mining or finding a spaceship.
But really though, the only difference between a casino and EU is the interface.
I started playing EU during the beta (rather, Project Entropia beta). I've never been a die-hard player but I keep going back to it. Basically I've seen quite a bunch of version updates.
Anyway a few misconceptions I've seen in the comments so far:
- "Avatar skills don't mean much". Not quite true, the higher your skills, the more proefficient you get at using equipment to its maximum potential. With guns that means getting the most damage out of each shot, if you have high evade you're get hit less often and your armor deteriorates slower, while mining you can prospect larger areas with each bomb/probe.
Sure, whether you "hit the jackpot" (since the gambling analogy seems popular) doesn't depend on skills, but the loot/revenue sure does since you're able to go after bigger stuff at a lower cost.
- "Old timers have an edge over newcomers". Again, not quite true. Yes they do have the advantage of higher avatar skills and potentially better stuff, though doesn't that sound familiar?
However, over the course of the VUs, several things have been implemented to make it easier for new players to get into EU. Like the oil rig or sweating. One can also collect fruits and dung (not too glorious but hey...). New arrivals now all happen in one major city, with tutorial NPCs and a live Guide. The crafting system was revamped and streamlined a few years ago which got the veterans grind teeth. And so on...
EU shares a lot with MMOs but builds on a different philosophy... The developers don't even market it as a game, insisting on the "virtual universe" tag line. I find that kinda lousy myself though I can see their point.
Anyway, it's got a steep learning curve and investing time and/or money is definitely needed. It's another niche product that is easy to trashtalk in an attempt to compare to everything else, but then you're missing the whole point.
I like that it's completely open-ended and that I can pretty much do whatever I want (within the game's mechanics of course). Mining (primarily), hunting, crafting...
I prefer mining because it requires a good understanding of how deposits work and YES it DOES make a difference if you play it right. Basically, if you all do is "click and hope" you got it all wrong.
Do I have any gripes towards EU or MindArk? I sure do, I could have done without some features and changes they implemented. Though as I said, you have to take a completely different approach if you really want to have an objective view about it.
You have to think long term.
This is being a game for people with money is 100% true. EU is unique in that it allow people with disposable income to use their wallet to make them better than everyone else in game. Most MMO's best players are the folks who don't leave the house for weeks at a time. The only way a casual gamer on a budget can compete is to play a pure twitch game like an FPS.
Admriker4, are you kidding? you quit over not able to find a name? After that long post on AoC forum about finding the perfect sandbox game.
Well let me tell you, EU is THE sandbox game, there will never be another like it.
You can buy a store, you can buy a mall and rent out the stores inside, you can organze your store however you want with different layouts and furnitures, you can own land then buy/find different DNA to create creatures to put in your area for other players to hunt, you can become a beautician, you can craft most anything in the game, you can fly a spaceship, you can literally do whatever you want. You gain skill by doing it, there are no artifical level or caps.
Dont listen to all those wow idiots, EU is a completely different game, it is an adult game and takes more than just leet fast finger skillz and trash talk to succeed. Yes it takes money to play for some professions and the end game is very expensive. But that's the whole point of a sand box mmorpg, otherwise everyone would be right on the top tier doing the same thing. There are so many different paths in the game once you get pass the initial learning curve, it's really up to you.
What most of those newbies are whining here is going down the path of a strict hunter(killing monsters). Of course if you played the entire game as a hunter, you are playing against the developer. Mining and hunting, you are trying to get developer to give you money (in the form of mob loot/ores). OBVIOUSLY they will not give you more than you invested in the game. This is not (*#*(@ wow where you can farm 100000 gold a day and every item in the game is in 6 figures after a few months. Even if you play a hunter, if you play efficiently and do your research, you still dont need a lot of money, about the same as a monthly subscription.
But the meat of the game is not as a hunter, here's a giant hint for your morons, you make money in the game by playing a profession that makes money FROM PLAYERS NOT MINDARK. Of course some players love to hunt and dont mind paying a bit money each month, which is perfectly fine too.
The only downside of the game right now is the graphics are a bit outdated so it doesnt look that nice, once the game gets facelift from crytek2 probably by next year realistically, it will be truely perfect.
I love the idea of putting a real dollar vaue to the in game currency, everyone takes the game much more seriously and the quality of people playing the game is also much different than your "i ownz j00" high school crowds in wow.
Well, maybe for you the point of a sandbox game is paying real cash out the ass for things, but for a lot of us the definition is different.
What are you talking about, having the currency pegged to the USD does not mean paying cash "out of the ass" for everything. You can certainly play it that way just blow cash on the game, but you dont have to, and most dont. Get a clue.
What a bunch of hogwash trying to call this game a perfect sandbox lol. It is strictly a casino, nothing else, it is NOT even close to being what us MMOer's call a sandbox. How dare you to denigrate the definition of a sandbox game.
It is tragedy that some try to paint this game in a favorable light.
The amount of time and money being sunk into EU to make positive money would produce better results if used in the real world.
One thing is blatantly obvious when reading this thread. Entropia creates emotion. That is good.
Another thing this thread proves is that people that don't get gets angry and people that get it gets rich.
Money does crazy stuff to people.
So you know better than the swedish gaming commision then do you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
I don't get what he was talking about with Storyline. There really isn't a fluid state of affairs in that game.
I really despised EU after having to do something called "Sweat" (harvest sweat off animals) for 3 days when I first started. I found that pretty crappy of any development team, and because of that have done my part to dissuade people I know from trying it.
You should never introduce such a tedious form of grinding from the very start of a game.
I really think MMORPG shouldn't support this game.
The Ped for Cash system is borderline fraudulent/scamming. Despite being F2P.
I could care less who or what the Swedish gaming commission is. I only know from personal experiences with the game. I think that overrides what any silly commission does or thinks. Too many commissions are just rubber stamps for their industry, leaving most of us to pretty much ignore what comes out of any commission.
Next time quote a viable source.
Sorry if I insulted anyone that plays this game, but I do feel sorry for you.
guys this game is not what it seems to be. You get stupider as you play it.
You can make more money with a job common now. you have to sweat as a newbie and the chances of you becoming really rich is pretty hard in the game. everything is hard but trust me when i say this is not worth your time. you'll sweat for hours and you'll end up with a few buck real life money. you'll merchant and everything but the sum all ends up being way LESS THAN YOUR ENERGY BILL.
DOn't think you can play and make money easy. it'll be better to work for it in real life.
Here is a good example of how Entropia is funny and rewarding:
http://www.massively.com/2008/06/05/entropia-universe-bidding-war-leads-to-12-000-payout-for-newbie
"How would you like to wake up and find that you made $12,000 overnight? Seems like a dream, doesn't it? How would you like to have that $12,000 come from a single drop you found one day while farming in your favorite MMO? Now it seems even more like a dream."
Which other MMO can the above happen? None. Correct!
You can also call the thing we all share, Life, as a casino as well if you take that perspective. Everything in life is a gamble. So your comment is in my pov useless.
I put 10$ in like 3 -4 years ago and I haven't had to put money in again! I could play 2 maybe 3 hours a year!!! Amazing! Wooohoooo.
Whether a few people make money because they "know" how to play doesn't take a way from the fact that this game has the amazing ability to make people broke! The game basically feeds on the weak, who can get addicted to their game. But unlike every other MMO the weak don't just get ganked, they get broke in Real Life and are subject to the same effects of gambling addiction. For mmorpg.com to promote these guys (oh I'm sure they paid the right price) is very sad.
I liked alot of things about this game, reminded me alot of Ultima Online with it's vast open world. If you honestly want to make the most of this game, then just go in to socialize and run around, which you can do for free... as exciting as that sounds.
They should be forced by law to put gambling warnings and supply links to support groups for those poor souls who get addicted.
I'm all up for business in MMO's. Getting users involved in RMT is amazing, giving them the ability to make profits, not many games offer that. SOE has their exchange servers, while not the best and most popular the concept is there. I'd rather the ability to make profit (from a game) from time investment rather than gambling. Having a monthly subscription is like having an investment cap on a game, so you don't go broke.
But let's now look at the business models that are becoming more mainstream. While pay-per-month is profitable alot of publishers will now offer Free games with item malls. In moderation, it's not so bad. Games are still very playable and fun without purchasing from these "malls", but those users who are addicted can end up spending ALOT of money, just like in EU.
I just don't like seeing gamers go poor. It's just not cool.
Everything in moderation. I just wouldn't suggest EU to anyone just like I wouldn't suggest gambling to anyone, but those who love to gamble would do so.
Sounds about right to me.
all to often people are drawn to things by compulsive behaviors. In reality a vast majority of humans have something that can trigger them. One thing about EU is that it also tries to feed off that compulsive behavior, obviously its not going to be the same for each person. some of you purported I make good money playing this game people arnt going to believe its compulsive. Go ahead, try to quit and not play it, see how you feel, and act without playing the game. Only then you may realize that it has gotten your attention and that you cant live without it. its called an addiction. Just not the same sort. When I read the article on this game, and I thought hey this guy talks about a rush in the game doing various things, then I sat back and said, yeah in my view that classifies as an addiction because you will continue to do it to feed your mind. Best part is, ive ran into that type of addiction when playing a MMO, never again will something preoccupy me like that again.
As for all of those posts regarding the swedish gaming commission- again the first mistake is to assume that any one group of people is the absolute be all and end all of a decision about EU and what it classifies as. It may be their discression locally in that country, however I know it wont be viewed the same in other countries. I know plenty of gaming commisions that would be on both sides when considering what EU is or isnt. However what you say, or what I say, really doesnt matter, people will form their own conclusions and in the end, are responsible for their ups and downs regarding what they do.