Originally posted by pstruth

In the thread I made, the example was only two days old, the guy was being rude to someone else (not me), and the guy wasn't trying to make amends with anyone.

In fact he even felt he was justified in doing what he did.

He's just one guy though.  The team on average is improving, and the change seems to be driven by the leadership.

 

I don't like the answer "if you want things to improve, join the team".  It feels like a cop out, and it isn't a realistic solution anyway.  But it seems like the leadership is listening.  It's just going to take a lot of work before the rest of them follow their example...

Not to sound like a broken record, but...

It is a completely realistic solution....  All you do is apply, and then you can start to work on the project.  Admittedly, the phrase is a constant thing, sort of mantra-esque, but it is true.  If you want things to improve to your liking, join the team.

And believe me, Mathy is a constant victimizer.  She continually acts like everyone hates her, finds ways to paint herself as the victim, and she has minimized major accomplishments of the Dev team.  While she is part of the community, she seems hell-bent on alienating herself from it. 

I don't think that's true at all.

In that particular situation, attacking her for what she said was uncalled for.  Mathy's comment was provokative, but the post he was replying to was dismissive.

~does research~

Mathy's posts are very positive and agreeable.

It looks to me like Mathy is trying very hard to be a good member of the community.  I found a thread where mathy is trying to arrange for a reunion of ps players.

~does more research~

Here's another quote from mathy:

"The bottom line is that we are all in this together and should try to be polite to each other whenever possible. No we do not have to love each other, but we can try to be a team and play the best we can."

It seems like mathy is a "give peace a chance" kind of person.

I'm looking at stuff now where mathy is saying people should remember to be nice and welcoming to players on the forums.  Ah, I guess that's why mathy is so hated?

More quotes...

"I could totally wrong here, but this just shows me that the person behind the character has feelings. This means that we should all play respectfully with each other."

"Encouragement is a much better way to help us, yet criticism done correctly is useful also."

"Over the years playing Planeshift I have learned it takes patience."

"Planeshift is great fun and I hope you enjoy it and welcome."

"To the person who I wish to thank the very most

Talad

Thank you for making this wonderful game for us to play and enjoy!!!"

"I want to say thank you to neko. Thank you for always answering my PM’s and helping me make the right decisions. Thank you for your patience when I ask you questions that make you think long and hard to give me the answers that work for the forums. We shall continue as always, you can count on that! Thanks.

I also want to thank Xillix. Not only do you put up with my snide remarks and ridiculous comments, you make it fun when you give it right back. Of course I thank you for all the work you do for PlaneShift. Mostly I want to thank you for being kind and fun to talk to."

Oh no, look at this one:

"I think this is sad. When I first started playing I was so welcomed. I could hardly keep up with the 'tells' and 'group chats' and the role plays going on. The thing is that I was invited to be part of this family so warmly I could not wait to play again!! What happened to that? Why do our newer players feel so put out and uninvited? Could this lead to the real reason for this thread? If we try to make the new people feel welcome, wouldn't that lead to less boredom because there would be more people to role play with and more things to do?"

I guess she's evil.

See?  A comment that brings up past irrelivancies doesn't help at all with any current argument.  I bring up Mathy, and you bring up a large list of moderately useless quotes.  You bring up Xillix, UtMoon, Talad, and most players rush to defend them as well.  I'm sorry I had to use Mathy to illustrate the point, but I hope it's clear.

However, Mathy -did- minimize the accomplishments of the developmental team of a free online game.  The accomplishments of people who work on this game in their free time.  I can see why such a reaction occured. 

I can also see that arguing over her previous statements won't help....  So... 

Why not apply for the team, PStruth?

Mr. pstruth,

I am honestly glad there are people out there trying to defend other people, but I truly believe you are trying to back the wrong person.

I am speaking of course about Mathy.  I've had some personal dealings with that individual though IRC, E-mail, Forums, etc.  and you need to know that Mathy is not who she claims to be.

Now, you of course have the option of disregarding what I am telling you.  That's your choice.  But you should really know the truth before you react in that person's defence.

Mathy has been caught numerous times in outright lies and more than once in provoking people into hating her (if in fact she is a woman).  You heard me...  provoking people into hating her.  She will post things or send things in personal e-mails that entice others to say something, then the moment you do, POW, "you hate me and how dare you tell me that", or the ever popular, "please don't, you are making me feel worse."

I've spoken with many people about these posts you continue to upload and frankly, you are starting to look rather foolish.  Anyone who does the slightest amount of research on Mathy and reads through the entire postings of the forum she posted in, will be able to tell you that she is the commiserate Victim in all she does and she entices others to bash her so that she can make a point.

I read in another of your posts that the Devs have to treat people well.  Not true sir (or miss...  apologies if I got it wrong...)  The devs don't owe the general everyday user anything.  They sure as hell don't owe me anything!!!!  They could simply develope the game on their own, perfect it, then sell it and we'd all then have to pay enormous amounts of money to play something we've all come to love.

No one that I know of (in game that is) complains about their beards looking the same as someone elses or their fur doesn't have the right texture.  We are all focused on other things like, "how the hell do you get this quest", or "(Player x) said what about my fighting skills?  Where is he.... let me at him".

I for one am very thankful of the Developer's hard work and constant fixing of the game.  They are wonderful people and take to heart everything that is presented to them in the Bug Tracking System.   I can't even begin to tell you about the thousands of bugs that have been caught and dealt with.  AND LETS NOT FORGET THIS IS STILL A BETA GAME!!!!!!

Please sir, let it go.  You are backing the wrong horse (as it were).  Unless of course you have a personal stake in this Mathy person????  You and Mathy aren't the same person are you???

If your not, then you really should ask around.  Talk to people in game about that person.  I could give you many many many names including that of her latest victim.  He contacted me in game after she told him not to.  (smart man to check someone out first after a person tells you not to and before posting stuff in forums about a person you've had little dealings with).

Let it go.

Originally posted by Araroyige

See?  A comment that brings up past irrelivancies doesn't help at all with any current argument.  I bring up Mathy, and you bring up a large list of moderately useless quotes.  You bring up Xillix, UtMoon, Talad, and most players rush to defend them as well.  I'm sorry I had to use Mathy to illustrate the point, but I hope it's clear.

 

However, Mathy -did- minimize the accomplishments of the developmental team of a free online game.  The accomplishments of people who work on this game in their free time.  I can see why such a reaction occured. 

 

I can also see that arguing over her previous statements won't help....  So... 

 

Why not apply for the team, PStruth?

I'm very confused.  You and Utmoon have both said bad things about mathy.  I looked for proof in mathy's posts.  Instead of being a trouble maker, it looks like mathy is really nice and wants to make a positive contribution to the ps community.  That's why I found those quotes and posted them.

You've told me that mathy is a trouble maker who's trying to hurt others and alienate herself.  But I just don't see the evidence.

It's fine to be critical of someone.  Just back up your assertions with proof.

We aren't arguing over her previous statements.  You said she was, basically, a jerk.  And because she's a jerk, it's ok to be mean to her.  I'm just trying to evaluate the validity of your claim.

Originally posted by pstruth

I'm very confused.  You and Utmoon have both said bad things about mathy.  I looked for proof in mathy's posts.  Instead of being a trouble maker, it looks like mathy is really nice and wants to make a positive contribution to the ps community.  That's why I found those quotes and posted them.

You've told me that mathy is a trouble maker who's trying to hurt others and alienate herself.  But I just don't see the evidence.

It's fine to be critical of someone.  Just back up your assertions with proof.

We aren't arguing over her previous statements.  You said she was, basically, a jerk.  And because she's a jerk, it's ok to be mean to her.  I'm just trying to evaluate the validity of your claim.

I don't remember saying that Mathy was a jerk.  Quite the contrary.  I think the individual is quite sad.  A jerk; most definitly NOT the word I would use.

Not all proofs pstruth are in the forums.  As I mentioned,  I have many many people who have dealt with that person.  To protect them, I will obviously NOT post their names in this forum.  As I said, I have many e-mails and chat logs from IRC.  If you wish for proof, go find Mathy, start up a conversation and lets see how long you last.

The point is that you claim that simply by looking through a forum you are going to find proof?  Uh...  No.  However, after I looked through the ps forums, even I could see the pattern of her woe is me persona.  If you are unable to see that, then perhaps speaking with others in game and asking them might also be appropriate. 

All I'm saying here is gather more proof than what you have.  Forums are not the end all be all (as it were).

I've done research on mathy.  I looked at all her posts on the forum.

It's true that I don't know what she's done with irc, email.

Right now, I see no evidence that mathy is a bad person or a trouble maker.  All I have is your testimony.

The devs should treat people well unless they don't care about the project.  A community based project based on community contributions won't work if you have no community.

Are they able to be mean to people?  Yes, They have the power.  But that doesn't mean they should.

People complain about the Ylian model and how you can't customize the face.  The lack of character models is one of the sore points of the game.

I don't have a personal stake in mathy.  I do have a personal stake in the truth.  If ten people tell me she's a jerk, then I have the testimony of ten people.  But what if they only think she's a jerk because they were told she's a jerk?

Maybe there's evidence that she's a jerk, but there's no proof on the forum.

I might try talking to her.  We'll see what happens.

Originally posted by pstruth

I've done research on mathy.  I looked at all her posts on the forum.

It's true that I don't know what she's done with irc, email.

Right now, I see no evidence that mathy is a bad person or a trouble maker.  All I have is your testimony.

The devs should treat people well unless they don't care about the project.  A community based project based on community contributions won't work if you have no community.

Are they able to be mean to people?  Yes, They have the power.  But that doesn't mean they should.

People complain about the Ylian model and how you can't customize the face.  The lack of character models is one of the sore points of the game.

I don't have a personal stake in mathy.  I do have a personal stake in the truth.  If ten people tell me she's a jerk, then I have the testimony of ten people.  But what if they only think she's a jerk because they were told she's a jerk?

Maybe there's evidence that she's a jerk, but there's no proof on the forum.

Again,  You have pulled only those things that you wished to focus on.  You have also used the word Jerk as if someone had called her that.  Please re-read my post.  I have never called her, nor would I call her a jerk.  I think she's rather pathetic.  I think she is sad.  I think she is an instigator, but a jerk??  That is your term not mine.

Sir, you need to look at the whole of a thing before you can denounce or praise a thing.  To pull out individual circumstances and assign empirical data to it based purely on your perspective is cafeterianism at best.

Should the Devs be polite?  Only in so much as other people are polite in the general public.  There are people who are not, and people who are.  Read through the thousands upon thousands of posts the devs have made and you picked out what?  10 tops? which fit the particular profile you wish to exploit.

Should they have bad mouthed a person or wanted to Slap someone publicly?  Perhaps not, but the point is, you are finger pointing at something you know very little about.

Let me ask you about the other 10's of thousands of posts they have made which do not support your theory.  What about those?  Why haven't you mentioned the polite posts?  What about those posts in which they praise people for their helpfulness or for the particular bug they found?   What about the hard work they have done to bring us great events like the night rogue event?  Your going to pick out a handful of posts over 10s of thousands?

I'm sorry, but that to me seems like you either owe this Mathy person something, or you are somehow connected to that person.  It doesn' t seem fair and biased to me at all.   I am NOT accusing here, merely pointing out that somehow a person who cries foul repeatedly without completely researching something isn't using all avenues available to them.  You only have my word so far as you have mentioned, but you also have the word of 3 other people from other posts in this forum.  That makes 4 of us.  Now...  you have an account on PS I assume.  Go in, talk to people about Mathy and see their responses.  That's all you have to do.  If you are unwilling to do so, then what may I ask are you afraid of OR in which way are you connected to Mathy?

Should the PS devs treat their customers with respect?  Again sir I ask you: What Customers?  We are allowed to play their game.  Nothing more.  If we wish, we can have fun and help out with programming, but we do not own the game; they do!  It is free and open source, but the characters and server are theirs, not ours.  We can compile similar worlds, but only they have the quests and character builds and so forth.  There are limitations to the license.  Perhaps you should read it before you make your claims against them.  http://www.planeshift.it/license.html

You are right that there is no community support without a community, but you somehow missed the fact that the game is developing, moving forward, progressing, and there are people who are quite happy with the game.  They make simple suggestions, and are for the most part, very very patient.  If they are not patient, they get in there and help out where ever they can and that too makes them feel good!  AND THEY ARE THANKED CONSIDERABLY for that help.  Something you have obviously overlooked in your perusing of the development forums.

At this point there is obviously nothing you will listen to other than your own soap box blathering so I will bid you good day and hope that you are somehow able to get over what ever it is that the person did to you to make you so angry.  Perhaps talking it out with that person may be a better way of working through things than bad mouthing something you know very little about.

and I shant be responding any further.  I put my voice out there for the public to read.  They can make up their own minds.

Edited to add:  hmmm...  very interesting.....  www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/173971  Guess you've been down that road before eh?  It's absolutely amazing what one can find when someone takes the time to look in the right places.  Or am I taking something out of context there?

YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.  All I'm saying is the proof about mathy might be out there, but I haven't been able to find it, and so I'm not going to believe you OR disbelieve you.

I HAVE NEVER CALLED THE PLANESHIFT PLAYERS "CUSTOMERS", EVER.

You are posting to offend, then running away from the discussion.

Originally posted by pstruth

YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.  All I'm saying is the proof about mathy might be out there, but I haven't been able to find it, and so I'm not going to believe you OR disbelieve you.

 

I HAVE NEVER CALLED THE PLANESHIFT PLAYERS "CUSTOMERS", EVER.

 

You are posting to offend, then running away from the discussion.

You need to re-read your posts in the other areas you have posted then.  YOU have in fact referred to the players as CUSTOMERS.

You have also used an exact match to what Mathy claimed other people would do.  Post and run.  How interesting.

I post to offend no one!  I have merely made clarifications that you have misread several times now.   It is you who are accusitory.  Not me.  I have called no one names.  You did.  I have never said you were this or that, You did. 

Personally I don't care what you believe or don't believe about me.  But I will put all this out there for others to read and make their own minds up rather than listening to you rant without warrant.  Your actions and words have been baseless and frankly childish.

If you have that many problems with the game and the developers,  

                                          THEN STOP PLAYING AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

OH...  who did I offend?  You?  Then I apologize.  I certainly didn't mean to offend you as you have done to the PS Development team.

Originally posted by apsendplayer

 

Again,  You have pulled only those things that you wished to focus on.  You have also used the word Jerk as if someone had called her that.  Please re-read my post.  I have never called her, nor would I call her a jerk.  I think she's rather pathetic.  I think she is sad.  I think she is an instigator, but a jerk??  That is your term not mine.

 

Sir, you need to look at the whole of a thing before you can denounce or praise a thing.  To pull out individual circumstances and assign empirical data to it based purely on your perspective is cafeterianism at best.

Should the Devs be polite?  Only in so much as other people are polite in the general public.  There are people who are not, and people who are.  Read through the thousands upon thousands of posts the devs have made and you picked out what?  10 tops? which fit the particular profile you wish to exploit.

Should they have bad mouthed a person or wanted to Slap someone publicly?  Perhaps not, but the point is, you are finger pointing at something you know very little about.

Let me ask you about the other 10's of thousands of posts they have made which do not support your theory.  What about those?  Why haven't you mentioned the polite posts?  What about those posts in which they praise people for their helpfulness or for the particular bug they found?   What about the hard work they have done to bring us great events like the night rogue event?  Your going to pick out a handful of posts over 10s of thousands?

I'm sorry, but that to me seems like you either owe this Mathy person something, or you are somehow connected to that person.  It doesn' t seem fair and biased to me at all.   I am NOT accusing here, merely pointing out that somehow a person who cries foul repeatedly without completely researching something isn't using all avenues available to them.  You only have my word so far as you have mentioned, but you also have the word of 3 other people from other posts in this forum.  That makes 4 of us.  Now...  you have an account on PS I assume.  Go in, talk to people about Mathy and see their responses.  That's all you have to do.  If you are unwilling to do so, then what may I ask are you afraid of OR in which way are you connected to Mathy?

 

Should the PS devs treat their customers with respect?  Again sir I ask you: What Customers?  We are allowed to play their game.  Nothing more.  If we wish, we can have fun and help out with programming, but we do not own the game; they do!  It is free and open source, but the characters and server are theirs, not ours.  We can compile similar worlds, but only they have the quests and character builds and so forth.  There are limitations to the license.  Perhaps you should read it before you make your claims against them.  http://www.planeshift.it/license.html

You are right that there is no community support without a community, but you somehow missed the fact that the game is developing, moving forward, progressing, and there are people who are quite happy with the game.  They make simple suggestions, and are for the most part, very very patient.  If they are not patient, they get in there and help out where ever they can and that too makes them feel good!  AND THEY ARE THANKED CONSIDERABLY for that help.  Something you have obviously overlooked in your perusing of the development forums.

 

At this point there is obviously nothing you will listen to other than your own soap box blathering so I will bid you good day and hope that you are somehow able to get over what ever it is that the person did to you to make you so angry.  Perhaps talking it out with that person may be a better way of working through things than bad mouthing something you know very little about.

Took the words out of my mouth.  Thank you.

I have NEVER called the planeshift players customers, and I challenge you to find a post where I have. :)

I haven't talked about what I believe about YOU.  I've talked about what I believe about mathy.

I've often posted evidence to back up my assertions, so my assertions are not "baseless".

Nothing you do can offend me.  However, your intent is clearly to offend. :) :)

Originally posted by pstruth

YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.  All I'm saying is the proof about mathy might be out there, but I haven't been able to find it, and so I'm not going to believe you OR disbelieve you.

 

I HAVE NEVER CALLED THE PLANESHIFT PLAYERS "CUSTOMERS", EVER.

 

You are posting to offend, then running away from the discussion.

Look harder?  I've seen several reactions from her that were more and more of the "Woe is me, everyone hates me, Wah. " Whenever someone jokes around slightly, any joking comment is taken as "I HATE YOU.  DIE." 

If you like, I could go ask ten more people to post on here and say that Mathy victimizes herself.  Would that work?

You could also get ten people to testify that there's nothing wrong with planeshift.  Testimony is only worth so much.

If you want to convince me you're right about mathy, I'll need good evidence, like a confession, or a link to a post she's made.

Originally posted by Araroyige

Originally posted by pstruth

YOU ARE BEING RIDICULOUS.  

 

Look harder?  I've seen several reactions from her that were more and more of the "Woe is me, everyone hates me, Wah. " Whenever someone jokes around slightly, any joking comment is taken as "I HATE YOU.  DIE." 

 

If you like, I could go ask ten more people to post on here and say that Mathy victimizes herself.  Would that work?

Araroyige,

It's obvious this person is solely out to hear their own words as they have now accused me of being offensive then running.  So...  I am going to leave them to their own delusions and let you have fun for a while. 

I've posted my say and people will now see pstruth's remarks for what they are:  blatant disrespect and OFFENSIVE posting regarding something he/she knows very little about.

This isn't about Mathy as they are trying to redirect.  The point is that pstruth took something completely out of context to suit his/her own needs.  The fact that he/she used Mathy as an example is suspect in and of it'self.

I am not running away from anything. I done what I set out to do and there is no sense rehasing something with someone who is only out to destroy something they don't own or even understand.

Have fun with him/her.

Edited to include:  www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/196330/page/4

Originally posted by pstruth

You could also get ten people to testify that there's nothing wrong with planeshift.  Testimony is only worth so much.

If you want to convince me you're right about mathy, I'll need good evidence, like a confession, or a link to a post she's made.

Quote from a few posts back...

I don't have a personal stake in mathy. I do have a personal stake in the truth. If ten people tell me she's a jerk, then I have the testimony of ten people. But what if they only think she's a jerk because they were told she's a jerk?

If you want the truth, and you have ten+ different people come tell you the same thing, based solely off of their personal experiences, I doubt they'd bother lying to defimate a given person's character ON THE INTERNET.  There's no gain for them by lying about Mathy, and enough people have had problems with the waves and waves of drama that get generated that there would be no point to lying as someone else could step in and share a personal story about her.  She -is- a victimizer, and she -is- trying to gain pity and be rescued by some random person who hasn't seen through the act yet. 

That's all I've got to say.

Originally posted by Araroyige

If you want the truth, and you have ten+ different people come tell you the same thing, based solely off of their personal experiences, I doubt they'd bother lying to defimate a given person's character ON THE INTERNET.

Stuff like that happens though.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be highly suggestive.  It just wouldn't be enough to convince me.

Ironic. You hold up a single post  as 'proof' of a continuing problem, yet ignore 2000+ others proving otherwise. Then you take the face value of a bunch of posts that mean nothing on their own and basically ignore the people who actually know the person in question, and even imply they might not be telling the truth. 

You brought in a questionable witness to try to vilify a well-liked and highly respected member of the PS community to both players and Devs. Your bluff was called, and you cling to the straws of 'evidence' you have, demanding others give you a mountain to prove otherwise. You hide your identity with nicks and proxies and expect people to believe you while you try to call BS on others who come in here without masks. You claim to 'understand' the minds of the Devs, yet also claim to avoid them. You try to defend a forum dweller you do not even know, not even questioning -why- someone might be 'rude' to that person. You claim that all negative comments are deleted on the PS forum, somehow denying the existence of an entire forum set aside for complaints.

And you claim the Devs are in denial? For someone claiming to know the 'truth', you are sure keeping yourself in the dark. The more you write, the more it becomes clear that you don't even interact with the PS community anymore. Your ignorance on some basic knowledge is telling.

I think we have found what is negative about this game, and it has little to do with the actual game itself. Look at the number of people who have posted to this forum, and figure out the ratio of positive and negative posters. You will find that the 'people' you represent are a very small number, and most of the 'negative' starts with them.

There is a difference between truth and honesty. You are not being honest to your readers. You are not being honest to the players and Devs of PS. And most of all, you are not being honest to yourself. It is becoming sad to watch.