Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

Originally posted by roahn

Originally posted by Talad

(Note my responses in green. -Roahn)
(I'm going with red - Nurahk)

Training: If you want to train weapons, you have to fight. If you want to train magic, you have to fight. Want to train mining? Gotta fight. Training your crafting skills? You have to fight. The only way to earn significant experience is... you guessed it... combat.

Developer answer:  This is not true, experience arrives from quests and combat, so you can vary how to get exp. We have short term plans to add exp on successful crafting of items. So those will be the 3 major ways to get exp.

I think you missed the word "significant." Yes you can earn experience by mining, but the reward is so slight as to be insignificant. If you want to train mining to any decent level, you will have to go fight monsters to earn the PP. Same thing for quests. You can spend 2 or 3 hours doing quests to get 10 PP... or just kill one trepor in 30 seconds.

  Early game the best way to get exp is to do quests.  Past that I'll agree that you have to fight.  If mining gave too much experience it would be overpowering considering how rich you would become.  It's a balancing issue and something that is negligible this early in the game.  Not saying it shouldn't be fixed but, it's not a priority.

Models are seriously lacking. In six of the classes, there is no female model, so they all have to use one model. Male models are in a similar situation. In the year and a half that I had been playing, I saw only one character model added.

Skins: Once your character is created, you cannot change his or her appearance except to put on armor. There are only two sets of armor so far (leather and chain). There are no capes or robes or other clothing.

Developer answer: We don't have classes, we have 12 races which can do whatever profession they prefer. It's not true we have no female models, there are 3 female models in game atm: elf, dwarf and ynnwn. In the last year we may have added just one player char, but we added a lot of new skins for monsters, new skins for existing player races, plus new areas. We don't have unlimited resources, but I think we surely showed progress in the graphical department.

I did not say there are no female models. I said there are no female models for 6 races, so they have to all use the same ynnwn model. In over 18 months since I started, only one player model was added.

About armor skins, there is a the plate armor

By "plate armor" you mean gloves, since last I heard, that was the only plate armor pieces added.

These are valid points, and it would be foolish not to give them to you.  The Dermorian female model was recently added, though.  Doesn't quite make up for the delay but perhaps it is a promise of things to come.

I've little to say about clothing.  It doesn't seem all that important for a game so early in development.

 

Monsters: In the time I have been playing, no monster models have been added. They have however added a slightly-modified skin to a monster, and given it a new name, but it's still the same behavior, same size, etc. Also two monsters might have the same name, model, skin, give the same reward and experience, yet one is wimpy while the other is quite deadly.

Developer answer: This is very wrong, new monster skins have been added, and new monster types (derghir, tloke) and size also.

Again you read me wrong. I said "no monster models" have been added, not skins. All the "new monsters" that have been added are just the same old monsters with a slightly different skin and a new name, but still the same old monster.

 

The Derghir and the Tloke are which "same old monsters"?

 

Bugs: Oh man, the list goes on. I reported a bug back in December, a bug where people could quite easily and quickly duplicate any items, including the most precious of weapons or expensive magical glyphs.

Developer answer:  We have plenty of bugs, and there will be many until we finalize the basic functions of the game. We are in the development stage of PlaneShift, and so we expect bugs. Players are aware of this and are still happy to play and try out our game. We are not a product on the market which is near completion or completed, it's a game being developed open to the public. You can take the good or the bad part of it as you please.

Bugs I can understand, in a pre-alpha "tech demo," but what gets me is that I see the same problems repeated with every release. A bug occurs, then is fixed. Next update comes out, and the old bug has returned.

Never get into commercial testing, you'll kill yourself :P

That being said, bugs do tend to reappear in development quite often.  It does happen more in PlaneShift than it should though.  There is no denying that.

 

Environment: As you walk around the land, you will find huge, empty areas. You can run for 30 minutes and not see a single monster, NPC or player. Most of the monsters in the game are packed densely in one building called the "arena." Oh, be careful as you walk around, as you are quite likely to get stuck on a surface and be unable to move.

Developer answer:  I don't agree with this comment, there are no big places where you have no monsters. There are some outdoor areas which connect one city to the other where you have a low density of monsters and this was done by purpose for now, those areas will be populated later on with small villages or dungeons.

Up until a few weeks ago, only 2 monsters existed in all of Bronze Door, and they usually "fell off the world" the moment they tried to chase someone, so half the time, that huge area was devoid of life. Now there are a handful of repainted ulbers. How many monsters are there now, Talad, in all of Bronze Door? 5? 6? I would call that empty.

Umm... Not to point out the obvious but, you do know that the Bronze Doors main attribute is the big, hulking fortress right?  :P

It amazes me that 15 years of development has produced this half-finished pre-alpha "tech demo."

Developer answer: The development of PlaneShift (in it's 3d version) is 5 years old, not 15.

Please check the official Planeshift site as you seem mistaken about Planeshift's history. Planeshift was started in 1992, which by my calculates is 15 years. Work began on the 3D version, per the official site, in 2007, which is 7 years, not 5. Here's the link to your official site:

http://www.planeshift.it/news_1992-2000.html

Thank you for your reply. Since most of your answers were "Yes, that feature isn't available, but we have plans for it someday," I only felt the need to respond to a few points.

-Roahn

 7 years 5 years, it's quite obvious he was making an estimation.  A bit nitpicky on your part.  Added to which you completely disregarded the fact that many games with paid, professional developers take five years.

 It was an interesting read, Roahn, and a well written review.  I find it slightly odd that your main complaint about PlaneShift is that it is still in pre-alpha.  Lack of content and buggy content seems to be all you are mentioning which is to be more than expected in a pre-alpha game.

To be completely honest, I don't think there is a way to review a pre-alpha game...

 

All the same, nice attempt.

Originally posted by WSIMike

 

Originally posted by Talad

All of our developers are very happy about the project, there are probably 2 people in the whole set of 200 developers we reviewed which are not happy. Plus there are a number which have been rejected during the selection process due to low or no skills. If he is one of those, then he should just not turn his failures into bad comments on our project.
To know it for real give us the name of this "friend" developer which had so much trouble with us, or is just something you heard from a friend of a friend?

Oh, so it's not that people are disappointed in how things are run there - even when a few different independent accounts that I've seen all cite similar problems in how the project is run - namely internal politics - as the reason they left. It's really that they weren't "good enough" for the project in the first place and are bitter. Right. Again, wonderful spin, but it doesn't hold up.

Yes it does.  Unless you think that anybody can become a developer, regardless of experience and knowledge.  Interesting spin, but it doesn't hold up :P

My friend - who, as I said before, is a personal friend... not a "friend of a friend" (again.. selective reading on your part(he called him your friend, he was just making sure you were twisting the truth in calling him your friend.  Please, pay attention)) - told me personally during conversation of his experiences while working on the project (that means he wasn't "disqualified" for being "unworthy" - he was actually working on the project until he chose to walk away). He has no personal stake nor interest in PS's failure or success. He was relaying his experiences to me very matter-of-factly. Though again, your attempt to spin and dismiss the point by speculation didn't go unnoticed. No, I will not post his name on a public forum as it's not my right to do so. Nice try though.

There are many other ways to give Talad your friend's name...Added to which, PlaneShift isn't for everybody.  Neither is game development, I don't see how one person's choice to walk away means so much.

And yes, I consider your post very insulting, because it's false, based on rumors you heard and written in a way to discredit the whole project, while you have no clue on how it's managed or made, you didn't even play the game!

Selective reading strikes again! I *have* played the game in the past(You said you haven't played long enough to formulate an opinion earlier... well, that you didn't know how somebody could... same thing). I have *tried* to play it again more recently, but am consistently unable to connect, even while I can connect to every other online app/game I use daily just fine(The server is usually up, perhaps you are just unlucky (or PS is just lucky :P)). I have said this in previous posts. What do you do when reading posts, ignore most of it and only look for things that might be potentially "insulting" or otherwise require your spin treatment? You seem to mis-state or misconstrue, or just plain miss what people say an awful lot. Might help your case, and your credibility, if you pay more attention. That's not an insult, by the way... it's a suggestion.

And again, nothing I have said in my posts is an insult - against you or the project. They are criticisms of things I see that I feel are wrong, specifically in teh way you attempt to dismiss and spin-doctor any comments you don't like - even those backed by verifiable resources, as you did in another thread here.

Say what you want, just don't expect another answer from me, I've spent enough time with you, and after a quick review, none of our players reads or consider these posts of any value. The comments I've received are: "focus on the game, not on troublemakers". And they are very wise.

Translation... "I've asked the opinion of people on my forums who I know will agree with me about these threads, and they do. So, they are very wise and I will listen to them".

And here you prove that Talad is the only one who puts spins on things xP.  If you had taken the time to look at the forums you would see that there are very few yay-sayers.  Most people give their honest opinion.

For everyone else, I highly recommend to disregard this forums apart from official members posts, if you want a real forum, moderated, go to PlaneShift web site.

This. Is. Classic. The epitomy of damage control. Or running scared. Take your pick.

The PlaneShift forums have many rougher reviews that this site does.  Again, look before you leap.

"Don't believe the posts by people outside the control of Planeshift's forum staff! We can't censor or ban anyone here for saying things we don't like! Avert your eyes! Go to the official site where you'll only see exactly what we want you to!"

Uh-huh... here's that assuming again.

What's wrong with these forums, Talad? Does it bother you that people can post things you don't want people to see/know? That your gestapo is powerless to censor or delete the comments you don't want people to read?

Considering the lack of quality in most of your posts so far, I'm assuming that is what bothers him ;)

Another thread here does a fantastic job of posting very factual information - with references - to comments that came out of *your own mouth*, on video! You can't get much more factual than that. And yet you try to dismiss the entire post as "not factual" and as "trying to hurt the project". Run from yourself much?

This whole ordeal is exactly why people *should* read these and other "non-official" forums - for *any* game. If something like that had been presented on your forums, it would have been deleted(nope), and the poster likely banned(nope), as quickly as it was posted. But then, that's exactly why you are trying to steer people away from here, isn't it. So you can make sure they only see or know exactly what you want them to. Here, the moderators have no personal stake in how well PS does or doesn't do, so they allow people to speak out.

What happened to using facts.  You seemed to throw that approach out the window :P

Here you can just have people turning a decent discussion between a player and a dev, a personal attack to developers and to the project. This thread is the best document of the technique used by the people here.

In our forums you have real news, real discussions, real players giving good and bad reviews, real development going on. Also you get decent moderation, thing that here seems not present at all. Friendly and open community where everyone tries to get the best out of the game.

Translation: "The official site is heavily moderated and regulated to make sure that you'll only see what we want you to, and that the project will only ever be portrayed in the best possible light. Therefor I really prefer you stick to that site and avoid this one"

The PlaneShift forums makes sure that the discussions stay civil and factual as opposed to here where you seem to think you are winning because you are (in text form) yelling the loudest.

Hmm...at least your post afforded me some amusement :)  Besides that... mostly useless.

Originally posted by Nurahk

The PlaneShift forums makes sure that the discussions stay civil and factual as opposed to here where you seem to think you are winning because you are (in text form) yelling the loudest.

Hmm...at least your post afforded me some amusement :)  Besides that... mostly useless.

 

First, my comments were directed at Talad - the project leader - not to any of his adoring cronies. His is the only response I am really interested in reading. But regardless, I'm sure he'll reward you with an autographed photo of him or something, for being so loyal and coming to his defense.

That said, your wonderful leader's feeble and, frankly, laughable attempts at saving face by spinning the mountains of information cited here against him, in this thread and others - not to mention his most obvious retreat from the forums - has been a source of great amusement for us all. Apparently, even Talad realizes that, when people are pointing out contradictions, legally questionable actions and flat out lies he's accountable for in the past, using his own words and verifiable actions to back them up, even he couldn't spin his way out of it. So he just did the whole last minute  "I am retracting my comments because this thread is only intended to hurt the project" damage control thing and got the hell out of Dodge.

But hey, if you find all that amusing, I'm happy to have returned the favor.

By the by... I'll say it once again, since you definitely suffer the same selective reading has he does... I never knocked the project itself. To the contrary, I have said that from what I saw - both on the site and in the game - it shows alot of promise, but at the time that I tried it, was very clunky. I've said that I think there are very talented people working on the project. What I take issue with is Talad's demeanor here on these forums and, based on the information gathered and presented about  him and his practices in the past - all verifiable; at his attempts at spinning and misrepresenting himself and spin-doctoring the issues. See? There's a separation, to me, between the project itself and the person leading it, and I make that distinction. Get it now? Or, do you need me to translate that into some other language that you might understand better?

Run along now... You're not supposed to be here, or didn't you read your hero's request not to read these forums?

Originally posted by Tuxide

This thread is very funny to read.  With all due respect, that is.  I say respect because that is the only payment that these developers ever receive for their voluntary work, and this is true for any voluntary project.  This I view as the thing that sets those who work on PlaneShift apart from developers of MMORPGs with commercial backings.

Nobody is paying anything  to play the game, so enjoy your indefinitely long free trial while it lasts.

I hold a bachelors degree in computer science.  In my field, saying that you worked on an MMORPG would look good on a resume.

Indeed.. Game design in general is a field that is tough to get into.. but at the same time easy. It's tough because there's alot of talent out there, you've gotta really stand out. It's easy because really, your portfolio does the talking for you - you've either got it, or you don't. Nothing you put on paper can do a better job of conveying your level of talent than being able to download someone's maps, or someone's prototype or what-not and give it a test run. I've known a couple people who didn't go through a lick of college or formal training and landed jobs (including one who worked on Rune and most recently Prey) purely on the strength of the levels they released for to the community.

Originally posted by WSIMike

 I have *tried* to play it again more recently, but am consistently unable to connect, even while I can connect to every other online app/game I use daily just fine.

The problem is obviously on your end because I'm in-game now.

 Hmm.. Gotta beg to differ. While I read this post, and others last night, I was online in LoTRO, MSN and Ventrilo... No issues with any of those - as is always the case. When I've tried to connect to PS - regardless of what time of day or night, no matter what ISP I was using at the time, whether I was on a network or connected directly, wireless connection or ethernet cable, firewall or no... same problem. I've owned two completely different PCs with unique hardware in the time I've tried connecting... no difference. No matter what, PS has refused to cooperate. Meanwhile, Unreal Tournament 2004, Final Fantasy XI, LoTRO, City of Heroes, Saga of Ryzom, IE, MSN, Yahoo Messenger, Adobe's Updater, even other small-time privately funded MMOs... the list goes on... have all worked fine. No matter what other online apps I've used, none have given me a problem. I would literally try logging into PS, get a "failed" message at the login screen. Close that out, immediately try to connect to another online game or app... bam ... connects just fine the first time and stays connected. PS has consistently given me a problem.

And honestly, all things considered, given the nature of the project - that it's "open source", being built entirely on a voluntary basis, using only free resources (as Talad himself has stated), with no backing, and in the face of all the above examples wherein I have zero problems connecting to or staying connected to any other online app, I think it's much more plausible that the issue is on their end. That's not a knock at their devs... Just looking at it realistically.

As for the comment that other guy made, how I was just connecting at the wrong times... errr.. no. Not buying it.

Originally posted by WSIMike

 

Originally posted by Nurahk

The PlaneShift forums makes sure that the discussions stay civil and factual as opposed to here where you seem to think you are winning because you are (in text form) yelling the loudest.

Hmm...at least your post afforded me some amusement :)  Besides that... mostly useless.

 

 

First, my comments were directed at Talad - the project leader - not to any of his adoring cronies. His is the only response I am really interested in reading. But regardless, I'm sure he'll reward you with an autographed photo of him or something, for being so loyal and coming to his defense.

Read:  Talad's first language isn't english and so I find it easier to argue with him because he can't put up much of a defense due to his lack of english skills.

That said, your wonderful leader's feeble and, frankly, laughable attempts at saving face by spinning (Something you've yet to really back up.  You made the spin claims but, without anything to back them up, they are nothing more than conspiracy theories :P)  the mountains of information cited here against him (Mainly from disgruntled players.  Those who like PS general stay away from other MMORPGs and so don't visit here.), in this thread and others - not to mention his most obvious retreat from the forums (Retreat is an interesting word when it seems he just got tired of listening to same dribble on and on again)- has been a source of great amusement for us all (You should have seen the IRC channel after reading your posts :P) . Apparently, even Talad realizes that, when people are pointing out contradictions, legally questionable actions (Haven't seen any) and flat out lies he's accountable for in the past(Lies?  I haven't seen any), using his own words and verifiable actions to back them up, even he couldn't spin his way out of it(Talad isn't the spin doctor you seem to want him to be, I'm sorry.  He was just trying to be understood and correct himself). So he just did the whole last minute  "I am retracting my comments because this thread is only intended to hurt the project" damage control thing and got the hell out of Dodge.

But hey, if you find all that amusing, I'm happy to have returned the favor.

By the by... I'll say it once again, since you definitely suffer the same selective reading has he does... I never knocked the project itself. To the contrary, I have said that from what I saw - both on the site and in the game - it shows alot of promise, but at the time that I tried it, was very clunky. I've said that I think there are very talented people working on the project. What I take issue with is Talad's demeanor here on these forums and, based on the information gathered and presented about  him and his practices in the past - all verifiable; at his attempts at spinning and misrepresenting himself and spin-doctoring the issues. See? There's a separation, to me, between the project itself and the person leading it, and I make that distinction. Get it now? Or, do you need me to translate that into some other language that you might understand better?

Run along now... You're not supposed to be here, or didn't you read your hero's (Dr. Cox from Scrubs is my hero, actually.  God, I wish he were real :P) request not to read these forums?

You seem to fear going up against somebody who can speak the language well enough to argue with you, so, I'll leave you be.

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

Originally posted by Tuxide

Originally posted by WSIMike
Nothing you put on paper can do a better job of conveying your level of talent than being able to download someone's maps, or someone's prototype or what-not and give it a test run. I've known a couple people who didn't go through a lick of college or formal training and landed jobs (including one who worked on Rune and most recently Prey) purely on the strength of the levels they released for to the community.

Saying that you've modded a game also looks good on a resume, depending on what field you're in.  PlaneShift also has modding communities and forked projects with original art.

 

Originally posted by WSIMike

When I've tried to connect to PS - regardless of what time of day or night, no matter what ISP I was using at the time, whether I was on a network or connected directly, wireless connection or ethernet cable, firewall or no... same problem. I've owned two completely different PCs with unique hardware in the time I've tried connecting... no difference. No matter what, PS has refused to cooperate.

The problem is on your end, fix your router.  PlaneShift requires you to be able to go out on port 7777 using UDP.  If it really was on PlaneShift's end, then it's because you've been there before and they banned you, or the server really is down.  You can see for yourself whether the server is online (and how stable it has been recently) through http://laanx.fragnetics.com/index.php?page=stats.

Hmm... I'm not on a router at the moment. It's a direct connection. Like I said, it's been a problem no matter what configuration I've run under. It either connects and then disconnects me after 5 minutes or less, or I just get the "failed" message at the login client. At most I've been able to log in, make a character and *maybe* get into the game, just to be dropped out. And as this has been the case for a long time now, any time I've tried, I highly doubt it was a banning thing. I've never raised any issue regarding this project until just very recently, so there wouldn't have been a reason up 'til now. Back when I'd last been able to play it, easily a couple years ago, I was able to log in and stay logged in for an extended amount of time, consistently. So this hasn't always been the case.

Having read a few reports of server instability and less-than-ideal hardware, I don't have a hard time imagining it's somehow related to that. Whatever the reason, I've had next to no success connecting to the thing at all. Not that it concerns me much anymore at this point.

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

Originally posted by Tuxide

Originally posted by WSIMike

It either connects and then disconnects me after 5 minutes or less, or I just get the "failed" message at the login client. At most I've been able to log in, make a character and *maybe* get into the game, just to be dropped out.

Okay, that sounds more believable than being consistently unable to connect and always getting the "Failed" message.  Most of the crash-level server bugs that existed a few weeks ago on 0.3.019's release have been resolved.  The ones that do exist I believe are known to be either related to NPC spawning, or the server's hard drive filling up with crash logs (which is rare, but I believe also happened one night in the past two or three weeks).  If you do get disconnected frequently, then bring it up on their IRC channel.  Although the game is playable (albeit not as playable as commercial MMORPGs), it is still pre-alpha software according to SourceForge, and one of the objects of the game is to find new ways to crash the server.

 Originally posted by WSIMike

Having read a few reports of server instability and less-than-ideal hardware, I don't have a hard time imagining it's somehow related to that.

Point taken, as per my above paragraph.  Last I heard, Talad is to be looking into getting a bigger box.  It's apparent that the server has outgrown the box which is specified on http://laanx.fragnetics.com/index.php?page=about_page.

Well, I had mentioned that at most I could log in and run around for 5 minutes, tops, before being dropped out again. But I'd get the "failed" message far more often than not.

In any case... there ya go :)

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

Originally posted by Tuxide

 Originally posted by WSIMike

Well, I had mentioned that at most I could log in and run around for 5 minutes, tops, before being dropped out again. But I'd get the "failed" message far more often than not. 

I would be curious to know what day this was on, if you don't mind me asking.  I am in-game now, once again as my character and am having no problems.

As for the legality of PlaneShift, I will start another thread on this board containing my views, for that is an interesting discussion.  I really wish Talad would bring me with him when he goes on his crusades.

I haven't tried to actually log on in a couple weeks or so. I haven't been able to successfully log in and actually do anything for any amount of time for well over a year. For the past many months, I've had the results that I described to you earlier.

The best part of this game is to see the development moving forward, being able to participate to discussion about new features, be part of the community in various releases, seeing your chars improve with it. I find this aspect very valuable and enjoyable. If you want a full game just ignore Planeshift in its present state, this is my take.

I have to agree, planeshift is not a complete game. It is certainly playable and many people play many many hours a week. If you come with the expectation of seeing a complete game or expect customer service representatives or any other of the hallmarks of a pay-to-play game you will not find those. Our all volunteer army has to make choices on the battles it fights.

Originally posted by Marcus79

The best part of this game is to see the development moving forward, being able to participate to discussion about new features, be part of the community in various releases, seeing your chars improve with it. I find this aspect very valuable and enjoyable. If you want a full game just ignore Planeshift in its present state, this is my take.

Originally posted by Anumesa

Originally posted by Marcus79

The best part of this game is to see the development moving forward, being able to participate to discussion about new features, be part of the community in various releases, seeing your chars improve with it. I find this aspect very valuable and enjoyable. If you want a full game just ignore Planeshift in its present state, this is my take.

 

 

THis is probably one of my favorite things about PlaneShift. When we went from 019 to 020 it was so exciting to know that when you went back there would be many new features. Plus the events held before the server was shut down to make the switch heightened the anticipation of the whole thing. Where else can you get that?

 

 

:D

I think that happens any time you have an environment where people are in it to get to know one another and share their creativity. The expressing yourself is there, but there are many online RPGs that have the same opportunity for character development and creativity. Planeshift is difficult for me sometimes though because it demands such a suspension of disbelief. There are only so many models and you can't customize the appearance of your model at all except for the different armors. We need clothes and costumes and things that aren't practical or meant for fighting.

I know this stuff will happen in time, but as a player I experience Planeshift as if it is right now how it is right now regardless of what it will be like in 5 years.