"After making the same original post on the official PlaneShift forum some time ago, it was almost immediately locked after a few spiteful remarks, which failed to refute any specific points in my post."

I question the motives of someone who seems to be hiding behind an identity created just for the sole purpose of desperatly trying to cause harm to someone else and his project. What are you hiding, Mr. 3hundred? Why did you create an account on the PS forum just to post this well written , though only somewhat accurate text full of misleading 'facts'? This says it best: hydlaa.com/smf/index.php

Point one from the original post: The original idea for the game failed. Yes. I question what your point is here. Many things have failed, and most do not come back. Planeshift is one of the later that have come back.

Point two: "it doesn't look at all innovative".... from a review of the -old- client from 2001. The game has gone through a complete engine change since then, and has been completely rebuilt from ground up. We'll come back to that in a bit. First, I would like to ask you what MMORPG does look innovative? Well, it certainly is not the 'big' pay games, nor the add-per play. Cookie cutter games all. I would suggest you do not use that argument when it can describe just about every other game out there. Truly innovative games are few and far between. PS is not innovative in it's code or graphics, but in what it is attempting to do. It is innovative in the fact that it is ignoring or downplaying many of the facets that bring throngs of paying slash junkies to most other 'RPGs'. But, you were just looking for any random thing to try to discredit the project.

Point three: The famous QuantomG... Actually never heard of him until I saw that blog/whatever.  You come off rather confused as to what he actually contributed. Another quandary is why he was copywriting works going into an open SOURCE (not content) project in the first place. Now, you seem to like to quote folks who are indignant and bitchy about PS, but I have yet to see one quote from anyone who is, and has been on the team for years. Although, that would stand to reason, since this thread is intended to be a witch hunt, and not an intelligent debate.

Which brings us to your point four, being nothing more than your self-righteous opinion. You are starting to sound very much like someone I know who thought every opinion out of his mouth was da truth, and therefor everything else was a lie, or wrong.  A troll, he was, who use 'we' instead of 'I' all the time, as if pretending he was the voice of the community. Let's get to those opinions of yours.

"The rest of PlaneShift development history is a winding down path of failure..."

Well, you said it, so it must be true. Odd that their has been no 'failure' since the original project went bust. Setbacks, yes. Delays? Of course. Name off one game that has not had both. Well, that is not so easy, though, seeings how PS is open to public view as it is being made, and most other games are close to finished when they go into open/closed Beta. PS is bigger now than it ever was, in span and playerbase. There is no 'winding down' about it. So, start telling the truth, instead of making it up.

"...filled with slow updates, numerous bugs..."

And what to you expect from a project done in folk's spare time? Oh yes. If you are like the person I know, you "want it fixed, and we want it now." The more I read from you (incuding all your following posts, yes, all of them), the more I see you are a disgruntled person who did not get what he wanted, and is now grasping at straws to hurt a bunch of people. And once again, I ask you to name ONE game that was not full of bugs at PS's stage. I give you from now till forever to come up with a good answer.

"unprofessionally designed content (quests, levels, missing character models etc)"

Last time I checked, there are no 'professionals' working full time on the project. Some come close, robbing a great deal from their free time. Yes, free time. You know, that little tiny span of time between work and sleep you are supposed to be spending with your friends and family? Yes, the -maps- (levels are for hack-N-slashers) are messy and incomplete. Yes, the quest system is basic. And yes, some of the character models are missing and/or rough around the edges. And finally, yes, that is all being worked on, one day at a time as folks can in their FREE time. Oh yes, and let me remind you that most games are still locked up from prying eyes on locked company systems when they are at PS's stage. Or did you think games are born with complete maps, quest, and a full set of characters? Don't be naive. When a crafter is building a piano and you come in when it is half done, are you going to start bawling that it has no strings, and that all other pianos you have seen had strings? Are you going to cry because you can't drive on the bridge the fifth day of construction? Grow up, as another poster said, who I gather has done zero research into the matter himself.

"...with quite a few developers, contributors and community figures leaving the project."

I had to laugh when I saw this. You try to give them impression that everyone who left was leaving because they had YOUR issues. For one thing, 'quite a few devs' is as vague as it is full of crap. In the last three years, I have only known two longtime devs to have left. One had nothing to do with your 'boo hoo open source' complaint, and the other left because the -community- was (in this person's opinion) turning to crap, and it was no longer worth dealing with them (and I mean 'you' by that). It is funny how the select loud and bitchy try to set themselves up as the 'leaders' and 'voice' of the community. And then you include 'community leaders' in people who have left the project. Pardon, but we never took a vote. You were never a 'leader', and neither was anyone else. Most people did not even agree with you. The few who did do not give you the right to represent everyone. I'll reiterate something for you here. PS is a Hobby/obsession for Devs and players alike. Sometimes, life does not allow a person to have the time to continue their hobbies. Personal matters take precedence over a silly game. Some people did leave in a huff, but those were the people that everyone else, players and devs, were glad to see go. I hope the door didn't hit you too hard on the way out.

"The proof is in the game credits, forum history and the game (or shall I say "Beta") itself."

For one, no, you should not say Beta. A Beta is a nearly finish project that needs to be tested for final bugs (as I define it). In PS, they are still creating bugs, and will be for some time. PS is more of a feature testbed. They add a feature, you test it, you report what bugs you find. That is the way it works. It is a game in the same way two pieces of odd shaped cardboard are an entire 1000 part puzzle. Not to mention they have to cut each piece by hand. Secondly, you are using the old statistic trick of using misleading data to prove your point. People come, stay, and move on. That is life. It is not limited to PS. I could say by looking at a company's records that over 90% of their workforce left. Nice of me to leave out the fact that they have been in business for 100 years, isn't it? Vague numbers and twisted statistics are great in an argument... if the person listening is gullible or daft. I have to ask the rest of the people agreeing with the OP without doing research of their own on which of the two they would like to fall under.

“The project leader claims inflated figures of over 400,000 registered accounts in game now. However, ask him how many of those are active and inactive, how many have been registered but never used, how many have been abandoned after a single use and how many are unique and didn't come from the same IP. Ask him if the PlaneShift account page offers an option for each user to delete their account (the answer is "No"). The real picture is much less misleading. There are only barely ~100 people active at any given time."

Ahhhh. The wonders of twisted math. First, let me say that yes, there have been over 400,000 accounts registered. Let me also say McDonalds claims Billions served. I have yet to walk into a McD's and see over a Billion people.  And, I bet they have not even taken into account how many of those were repeat customers. And how about the one lady who sued them for spilling hot coffee (might have been another chain), did they count her as well? I got food poison twice at McD's, yet they do not let me take my number off the Billions served, plus, they count me twice in their data! Get a grip. Registered account's means registered accounts. If he said active accounts, then yes, you would have had something to whine about. As for the rest of those numbers, they are easy to get. In fact, when the 340,000 regged accounts was posted, I did exactly that.

Total PS accounts:  340,000 or so.

Accounts never used:  112114

Total characters used less than an hour : 141557

Total characters active more than ten hours:  9416

Accounts active in the last 30 days: 14787

Accounts created in the last 30 days: 18103

Accounts created in the last 30 days never used: 7614

Active accounts older than 30 days (repeat players, I like to call them):  4297

Accounts active in the last week: 3632

Active accounts in the last day: 1021

Well, shoot me in the foot and call me Gimpy. Actual facts, not smoke in the wind. Not bad for a single server start-up project built by people in their spare time over the last three years. So, my little whiny friend, yes, all you had to do is ask. Not to mention I see over 200 folks on the server quite often of late. Not to say there have not been times where I will only see 90 on a low usage time. But, unlike you, I look at both the good and the bad. Learn to do so, and you will not look so stupid to folks who know both sides of the story. I happen to think fewer people means less morons and script kiddies playing.

Now, on to your next point. The 'Myth'. I am not going to give this point a number, as I really see no point in it. You are once again tossing up some fast talker's 'truth' (read opinion) as fact. Sad, really.

"This project is no longer "only a tech demo", it is officially called a "Beta", and if anyone tells you otherwise, point them to this presentation where the project's leader states that it is a "Beta":"

I simply love it when folks hang their entire arguments on one single quote, over even a single word.  It makes it easier to make others see how foolish they are. For one thing, perhaps it is a 'Beta' in Talad's mind. In fact, a great many people define PS as a Beta. What exactly does that mean? Look it up. By some definitions, yes, PS is a Beta. By others, it is most certainly not. Have you the mental powers to look into Talad's head and see what definition he was going by? Myself, I do not consider it to be a full Beta, nor do most of the people working on it. But, it is Talad's project, and therefore falls under his definition.

"Draw your own conclusions."

Yes, I bid you good folks to do so. If you are not intelligent enough to see past the smoke and mirrors of the OP, and do some -recent- research of your own, then I do believe you are not worth talking to.

Which brings me to Twinchaos. Consummate lackey of trickery, repeating the same things that have been said already, and another disgruntled PS reject. In his first post, he acts like this is the first time he has ever heard of the project. He won't even say 'Talad', thinking that the ignorant will assume he does not already know all about the project. Classic move. It might have even worked if he did not come right out in a later post and say, "From my personal experience, this game has...". By your wordiness and stating personal opinion as fact, I have a pretty good idea of who you are. Follow on 3hundered's coat tails, or did he ask you over here to give him support? Another tactic of trickery: The same info from two sources MUST be the truth. I almost have to wonder if the two people are one and the same. The tactic has been used before.

I see absolutely no 'proof' at all in either of these 'concerned' folks posts that PS is failing terribly, and should not be played by anyone... ever.

As for the continued whining about PS not being open source because the content in not open as well, this is a thin argument. You quote Wiki as if it is gospel. Someone up and decided what an open-source game was, and stuck it on the net. A second guy comes along and agrees with it. Magic thing and sparkly fairies happen, and suddenly it is fact. There is a reason Wiki is editable. If is often inaccurate, opinionated, and sometimes just wrong. Open Source Game is a relatively new term, so who is to say what the final authority is on it?

The source is completely open. Go and DL it right now. Modify it until your heart is content. Use it elsewhere, or send it back if the team could use it. The content, meaning story, quests, art, and music are -not- source. It does not even come with the source code. PS makes and keeps its own art. It also does not use art from public archives. I really don't see what the huge problem is with that. The art and settings teams have both been growing very quickly of late. They know very well their works will belong to PS, yet still they do it. Are you accusing them of being wrong in wanting to help in a project they love working on? You're 'facts' mean nothing to them.

The game will continue to grow in span, features, size, Devs, and Players, despite anything you may cry wolf about. It will be slow in doing so. It will be plagued with bugs. Folks will come and go. Mistakes will be made, then fixed. Tempers will flare. Whiners will whine. And in the end, you will eat crow.

Next time you are going to make a thread like this, get your facts from both sides, then post it with integrity. And don't do it from behind a newnick mask.

"Those who shoot from the shadows are often the ones who fear to be in the light."

---

Originally posted by UtMoon
Not bad for a single server start-up project built by people in their spare time over the last three years.

---

Editing wikipedia to fit your needs is about as low as you can go. I mean come on what the heck are you thinking, at least use an alias lol.

And brining up that you started your own wikiproject is very weak.

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

Originally posted by UtMoon

I question the motives of someone who seems to be hiding behind an identity created just for the sole purpose of desperatly trying to cause harm to someone else and his project.

Spoken like a true pundit! :) I don't see 3hundred's post as an attack on Talad. 3hundred simply believes that Talad is being disengenous with people. If someone said something that you thought was a lie, wouldn't you get the urge to make noise about it? (Yes, that's an attempt at humor, given that your post is an attempt at exactly that.) I actually think you and 3hundred agree more than you disagree, you just spin it differently.

Originally posted by maveric007

Editing wikipedia to fit your needs is about as low as you can go. I mean come on what the heck are you thinking, at least use an alias lol.

In all fairness, Tuxide simply thinks he's editting the wiki entry to be his idea of "correct". But yes, it was distasteful that Tuxide's defense was to brag about being an "established editor", whatever that really means in the world of wiki. Isn't wiki supposed to be non-authoritarian?

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

I have indeed read the entire thread, though I don't have it all dedicated to memory. Gee golly, do you folks ever like to accuse me of things. :)

If Talad is in fact being called names, you have to admit that he set himself up for it.

In order to preserve/archive the relevant information in this thread, I'd like to post the excellent rebuttal made by "Bristn" against "Tuxide" on Wikipedia, just in case it isn't accessible at a later point. As per Wikipedia's policy, the Burden of Proof falls on "Tuxide" for many of the unsupported claims he makes in regards to the definition of open source games, and because he can't prove his "burden" for it to remain as the article's content, he is desperately petitioning for the article's deletion. Here is the excellent rebuttal as has been posted by "Bristn":

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2007_September_25#Open_source_games

*********************QUOTE**************************

The definition of open source has evolved to be more than just a program's source code. It is a common misconception to claim that open source refers strictly to software. It is now a set of principles and practices. See open source and open source (disambiguation) articles for more details and examples. The following is from the latter:

Open content, another term for open source, when the distinction between source and product is less clear.

And the following is from the article's discussion:

There is still confusion with "open source" that newbies think it means software, which is not only what it means. We should not give a definition that only includes software and excludes all other products. That would be npov. Here is the definition by Pengo:

denotes that a product includes permission to use its source code, design documents, or origins.

Note that "source code" is a form of "origins," so it is redundant.

Here is the broader npov version:

denotes that the origins of a product are publicly accessible in part or in whole

--- Mr. Ballard 20:24, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

If open source is the origins, then content is part of those origins and must be open, as least in "part", if not in "whole". Quake 3 Arena's content was never open, neither in part nor in whole.

Indeed, we need an NPOV on this. Implying that "open source games" can exclusively refer to "open source code", disregarding the content is not an NPOV. Why should it suddenly be any different when applied to open source games compared to open source film, open source journalism, open source politics or open source culture? While the open source may be commonly applied to source code, such application is not exclusive, as has been proven by open source article.

The article/definition in question is, in fact, verifiable with a reliable source. The specific example given in the article lists Quake 3 Arena, which can only be acquired via a retail(or online) purchase as a game. Therefore, as a game, Quake 3 Arena cannot be freely published and distributed as open source game due to copyrighted content. The distinction is important, since definition of a video game or computer game confirms that it requires more than just a source code or an engine to qualify for being called a game. Creating an open content to replace the proprietary one and publishing it as open source game qualifies for a distinctly new game, which can no longer be called Quake 3 Arena. Such a project has, in fact, qualified and has been published as an open source game OpenArena.

The Open Source Definition by Open Source Initiative states the following:

Open source doesn't just mean access to the source code.

Moreover, the term open content has been derived from open source, as has been mentioned before. In fact, the following article at OpenContent refers to open content as open source content as an alternative and acceptable definition.

If open source games definition simply does not exist and is unverifiable, then no game can legitimately claim to be "open source". Any game found to make such a claim would, therefore, be deliberately misleading in its description. Open source has never been about proprietary dependence or deliberate obfuscation.

In addition, the suggestion to remove the link to The Linux Game Tome is completely baseless, since the site does not have to cover open source games exclusively to be a great example of one that does cover them extensively, especially because it clearly states the licenses involved with every game listed, so it is not misleading in any way.

I also get a distinct impression from the nominator that his motives are less than sincere. He is making unprofessional and baseless accusations and is drawing personal conclusions without any proof whatsoever, which are completely irrelevant to this discussion in the first place. Contrary to his claims, a "competitor's PR spin" is what seems to be prevalent in his line of reasoning.

And that is all I'm going to say for my part.

--Bristn 18:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

*********************UNQUOTE************************

"Tuxide" has, in turn, posted his weak "rebuttal" that "Bristn" has only "a few edits on Wikipedia" in attempt to discredit the response, which is completely irrelevant to the rebuttal's content or "Bristn's" personal character. Another editor's comment to "Tuxide" calls it a "Weak delete Going with WP:RUBBISH." Meaning that he sees "Tuxide's" argument as weak and rubbish. Hence, why I stated earlier that "Tuxide" cannot prove the contrary, so he is desperately petitioning for the article's deletion. If there is no article/definition of open source games that is verifiable, then no game can legitimately advertise itself an an open source game. Therefore, the statement that PlaneShift is being falsely advertised as an open source game or open source MMORPG still stands as valid.

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

Reading skills acquisition

Brain

You're welcome.

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

I'll keep this short for those of you with low attention spans or ADD.

Skald: You may have been playing for four years, but CB (Crystal Blue), the current engine, code, models, art, and much of the new content has only been out since early 2005. So, in fact, the current code has only been out for less than three years. 3hundred and Co. are taking the entire span of the 3D project, and trying to claim that this is all they have done in that time. The fact is, the first four years of the project had to be scrapped because of an engine change. They had to start over.

So: The current game/testbed you play is only THREE years old. And, as I have said, it has come far in those three years, with minimal folks working on it. Do not try to bandy words with me.

3hundred/Twinchaos's main and only semi-valid complaint seems to be that the code is open, but the content is not, and therefor does not fall under the popular definition of the phrase "Open source game". Congrats. You now qualify for the World Nitpicking Championship. I'll ask Talad to change the description of the game to Open Source/Closed Content MMORPG next time I talk to him.

They/he then branch off from that to try to say how bad the game is, given that it has had seven full years to develop. Those would be opinions, not fact. The rest of the crap they spew is twisted facts and innuendo to support his/their point of view. I have detailed each of which in my previous post, if anyone had taken the time to read it all.

As to the Wiki tangent, I would say a reasonable discussion needs to be had about it, and where PS actually belongs. But not from anyone who has personal intrest in supporting or denouncing the project. Just the facts.

pstruth: I have issues with the project at times, yes. And I am very vocal about them. But I do not tell half truths or spin information to give myself an imaginary leg to stand on. As a person who knows the actual details of much of what 3 and twin are babbling about, I can see how dishonest they are being. If they had used more integrity in presenting their 'facts', I would likely have even agreed with what they had to say. But, as I said, this thread is a witchhunt, not a well intentioned deed.

Originally posted by UtMoon

3hundred and Co. are taking the entire span of the 3D project, and trying to claim that this is all they have done in that time. The fact is, the first four years of the project had to be scrapped because of an engine change. They had to start over.

Originally posted by UtMoon

3hundred/Twinchaos's main and only semi-valid complaint seems to be that the code is open, but the content is not, and therefor does not fall under the popular definition of the phrase "Open source game". Congrats. You now qualify for the World Nitpicking Championship. I'll ask Talad to change the description of the game to Open Source/Closed Content MMORPG next time I talk to him.

I'm glad you see that you and 3hundred actually agree on something.

Originally posted by UtMoon

pstruth: I have issues with the project at times, yes. And I am very vocal about them. But I do not tell half truths or spin information to give myself an imaginary leg to stand on. As a person who knows the actual details of much of what 3 and twin are babbling about, I can see how dishonest they are being. If they had used more integrity in presenting their 'facts', I would likely have even agreed with what they had to say. But, as I said, this thread is a witchhunt, not a well intentioned deed.

Given what's in front of me, I don't understand how you arrived at that understanding. Then again, you're claiming to be an individual of great influence in the Planeshift world with special insights that others here do not have. Are you at liberty to share some of those insights with the rest of us?

As far as "witchhunts" go, this is something all sides are guilty of.

There is a large difference in 'simply pointing something out' and an all out attack. There is such a thing as tone of writing, and his was hostile from the very start. I admit mine was as well toward him. Not to mention that most of the facts he used were either outdated, misconstrued, or vague. Even had I known nothing about the project, I would have still seen that. If you want to prove someone else Wrong, best to not leave holes in your own arguments.

Honestly, some folks do see me a someone mighty special. That is their opinion, not mine. But I am good at talking and listening, and seeing things from all sides. If I actually wanted Talad to change what he classifies the project as, I might have a good chance of it. No, I am not close with him, or even talk to him much. But when I do, it is in a reasonable manner...well, somewhat. I am as good as the next guy at butting heads. I said 'if' I wanted him to change it. I sometimes forget sarcasm does not come across very well in text. I would much rather have the definition of 'open source game' changed, or have a subcategory added to it to include games/programs with open source, but closed content. If you read closely, you will see that 'Open Source Game' evolved to include the content, but did not start out that way. Therefore, there are grounds for creating a sub category.

So no, I do not agree with 3hundred at all.

Finally, there is no flaw in my understanding. If you read my first post, you will see how each and every one of his claims were either misleading, or could be said about most other projects. What he was doing is holding up an apple to folks who have never seen an apple before, and trying to convince them that it is bad for it to be red. His claims about slow progress. True. As with countless other projects out there, including the commercial ones. Full of bugs? True. As the same is true for countless other programs at this stage. Bad content? Opinion, and therefore not valid without a counterpoint, or at least stating it as his opinion.

I have claimed nothing of having special insights in my posts, as you somehow implied. Yes, I do have some insights into the project some here do not. But given the way 3 and twin talk, I am sure they both have some of those same insights, but chose not to include them. That would have made their posts a lot less dire in mood.

My 'insights' are simple. I have been around the project for a few years. I talk to people. I listen to people. I have had conversations with those at the very top of the project to the very buttom. I ahve agreed with some complaints, and seen others as nothing but sillyness. I look things up that I I have questioned, and draw my conclusions from that. I never assume that what one person tells me is the entire story. If someone tells me something, I try to confirm it for myself before I pass it on. And, I never assume I am always right. My insight is nothing more than common sense, and a good ear.

As with all good stories, 3hundred's only starts with a seed of truth. The rest is spin.

And please, do not try to spin my own words against me again, or put words in my mouth I never wrote. I answered them kindly this time, but will start taking offence if it happens again.

I'm glad that you recognize the tone of your posts. Though this post was thankfully more civil, the one you made after it was not. (www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/1637461#1637461)

Your suggestion that the definition of 'open source game' should be changed so that Planeshift can be put in that category is not something I would have thought of. My guess is that you'll have a hard time selling it, especially since the crystal space client is open source because Talad doesn't own it and so has no legal ability to change its status.

Here is more evidence from the Blender community. This time someone mistakingly (or falsely) advertised PlaneShift on BlenderArtists as "Help needed for PlaneShift (GPL MMORPG)":

blenderartists.org:Help needed for PlaneShift (GPL MMORPG)

Not surprising, since the game falsely advertises itself as an "open source game". After a few replies in the thread, someone has posted a strong warning to the artists:

I would discourage ANYONE from contributing their artwork to Planeshift.

Most people don't realize it, but planeshift has a terrible art liecense which literally enslaves your artwork. It is not free (as in free speech) like the GPL, or the MIT license, or anything... it is far worse than most proprietary licenses either. Let me make this very clear:

Planeshift's art license is an agreement that you give exclusive rights to Planeshift. You are agreeing that you may never use the art for any purpose again.

Don't believe me? Go here and read the license for yourself. The code might be GPL (a noble license) but the art and content license is pure tyranny. (It is even illegal in some parts of Europe.)

The person who posted the warning has joined the BlenderArtists community in 2004 and has 721 posts (as of the time of this posting), in case someone decides to accuse him of registering just to post the warning. After the warning has been posted, the thread was immediately closed.

Why do you think that Atomic Blue and PlaneShift team so desperately want PlaneShift to be referred to as an "open source game"? It gets you listed on many open source community sites, it's free advertising. The post on BlenderArtists is a perfect example of how misleading and false that advertising is. The whole thing stinks of dishonesty and pettiness - something that open source has never been about.

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

Pretty sure this thread is long from dead. Second note I have nothing to do with any other person posting in this thread. Thanks for the accusation though ;)

Originally posted by Zorvan

 

Originally posted by Dracus

Originally posted by Talad

2) If PlaneShift was my real life job, I would have already filed a lawsuit against you and all the insults and falsities you are saying.

Oh grow up.

My sentiments exactly. In the earlier part of this thread, I tried to allow some leeway to Talad and his posts, in the thought that maybe he was just having trouble adjusting to a forum. However, I now revert to my originally stated opinion. Talad should not be allowed anywhere near a forum if anyone on that "dev" team ever wants to see that game published.

Indeed.  Though I find this entertaining at the self-inflecting damage that Talad is doing to his own title and creditability.

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.

Hey guys!

MMORPG.com encourages users to share opinions, ideas, and news on MMOs; please remember, though, that this does not entitle anyone to person attacks on players, posters, devs, etc.  If you disagree with someone's post, please make sure that you are refuting the concept of the post - not the poster him/herself.  This goes for all of you ;)

Originally posted by Taera

Hey guys!

MMORPG.com encourages users to share opinions, ideas, and news on MMOs; please remember, though, that this does not entitle anyone to person attacks on players, posters, devs, etc.  If you disagree with someone's post, please make sure that you are refuting the concept of the post - not the poster him/herself.  This goes for all of you ;)

This post is a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

Please, guys :) I mean it.  No insulting other people.  Talk smack on plants, computer programs, fire hydrants, but not people.

Some helpful links to get started to hopefully avoid this kind of situation again:

Public Relations: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_relations

Viral Marketing: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_marketing

Customer Engagement: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_engagement

Talad promotes uncivil behavior.