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Originally posted by Zorvan
Give me a break. I was not being "protective" of anything or anyone. I simply pointed out that you were obviously looking for any reason you could find to argue with Twinchaos' post, and the complaint you latched onto was an invalid one. Some people consider that sort of behaviour "trolling".

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I mean, seriously, look at this one:

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And anyone can plainly see that the answer to the question would have been the same whether the question was "I really need a planeshift map........", or if it was extended to "I really need a planeshift map, does someone know a god webbpage with a map?". The response was that the only maps, not "the only maps on a webpage", were in a stickied thread (which apparently no longer exists), and that a map is a spoiler and you have to make your own. Which has everything to do with what the posters argument was about, and I quote:

"No, anyone who suggested a detailed regular map, a mini-map, a compass or anything that shows some kind of coordinates was/is frowned upon because the "devs" consider it to be a "spoiler" and that it "prevents exploration". ".

I honestly can't believe that you actually made a complaint about the snipping of the title, when it didn't change the meaning or point of the post. Did you just need to find something to argue with there?

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Regular map was never frowned upon and I knew it to be in plans for as long as I've been playing (playing on and off since May 2003). Minimaps, however, were always frowned upon, yes. Not because devs are some sick bastards who want all new players to find themselves lost, but because they want to give opportunity to people wishing to roleplay cartographers. How evil of them, isn't it? This thread has been dwelling the land of flawed logic and incorrect statements from its very beginning. You can't possibly troll in it.

I dare you to look up threads which frown upon ingame maps (not minimaps). If you know what you're talking about, you'll have no problems with that. But if you don't, well, let's just say in that case you're really in no position to call anyone a "troll". Sounds fair?

I might/can overlook  the lack of ingame maps (etc.)  BUT, what fun is being stuck in the deadzone for almost a week?  Yes I try to follow others then plummet to my death over a unseen clift.   Wheee fun 

I would simply like to point out. that I am in no way  a GM, nor a Dev, I am simply a player of the game. and I happen to enjoy it. Its a free game..no one is forcing you to play...I have never been much of a complainer myself and I tend to look for the good things in everything..I donno it just seems to make my life a little bit better ;) you all should try it sometime.

This is not Korean style MMO kill reappearing mob 1000 times get exp and gold.

This is RPG. And this means you have to comunicate with others. And simply ask way out play your role.

If you do not like RPG part of game go kill 10000 mobs and get your next lever in silkroad etc.

This thead is stupid flaming on game just is is maybe only real mmoRPG. Not just MMO level/item gaining action game/Diablo clone.

This thread hasn't had a post in it for over two years until you came along, and is dead as the game appears to be.

No wonder why thread dead when its name is like this and even in Caps lock.

Some kind of stupid failed in tutorial posted this FUD and someone believed.

Thread dead.

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AND

Game itself is very active new version is in development, there is sound contest and ppl play game itself in 2 very active servers. I play it now on other PC for my first day and I like it...wonder why so much crap posted here.

It's an extremely ambitious project, undertaken by a non-profit group.

OF COURSE THE TECH DEMO ISN'T GOING TO BE A GREAT GAME!!!

They barely have a third of the features down!

I don't think the lack of a mini map is game breaking. It contributes to the community and experience and feel of the game. if you can't deal without one... well...  kinda lame.  What breaks this game is the utter lack of game play.

Originally posted by Boaal

I don't think the lack of a mini map is game breaking. It contributes to the community and experience and feel of the game. if you can't deal without one... well...  kinda lame.  What breaks this game is the utter lack of game play.

I repeat, they haven't even got a third of the features in.

I might/can overlook the lack of ingame maps (etc.) BUT, what fun is being stuck in the deadzone for almost a week? Yes I try to follow others then plummet to my death over a unseen clift. Wheee fun  <-- ever consider looking before you leap?

Blame only your communication and exploration skills I managed to get outside in less than 30 minutes first time.

Maybe you want to make map and share with others? Or make map and use for your own advantage? That is fun and idea of this game and if you want to kill mobs gain gold and xp this game not for you, but this does not mean that game is bad.

Evidently, they don't have a good map because they think it's a "spoiler", which has nothing to do with this game's stage of development, manpower or funding resources.

A foolish thinking on their part and an elitist attitude from their inadequate supporters. This lack of feature doesn't promote any communication, only causes wasted time and makes more people leave this game. Not having a map in an MMORPG is nothing but a lazy excuse.

No player is required to be a game developer to determine whether a game they're playing is enjoyable or not. Considering that it's this game's developers (specifically its project leader) and occasional fanboys, not the players, who are advertising it as being designed to "commercial quality standards" in their Crystal Space 2006 Conference. Not to mention, it's been advertised as a BETA, not a "tech demo" in the same presentation, which is a final testing stage just before a full release.

If this game's developers and supporters can't handle valid criticism, then perhaps they shouldn't be making a game in the first place and reading these discussions at all.

You know what, I give up. I'm gonna stop watching this abomination unto everything that separates humans from dirt.

only uncool people bad at communication debate skill dont like planeshift

thats how we know planeshift is a better game

theres no reason anyone would ever dislike planeshift unless he was just a bad person

also btw i heard the emperor got some new clothes today

First off, you're making a generalization that disregards exceptions by arguing from a special case—cookie cutter MMORPGs. I'm not going to say that PlaneShift should never have a map, but I've played some excellent MMORPGs that did not have one. One cannot have played all MMORPGs and know what would work in others and what doesn't.

Cookie cutter MMORPGs.   Hmmm.   Just out of curiosity... can you tell me one game that does NOT have a map?  That like saying boardgames (monopoly, etc) don't need a board : No playing field.    How will I know where something is that is not immediately visible on the screen?    Where are the NPCs?  Let's just run around and maybe I'll find it?  Or do you give it way?  Just follow the yellow brick road...

Originally posted by Kemistri
No player is required to be a game developer to determine whether a game they're playing is enjoyable or not. Considering that it's this game's developers (specifically its project leader) and occasional fanboys, not the players, who are advertising it as being designed to "commercial quality standards" in their Crystal Space 2006 Conference. Not to mention, it's been advertised as a BETA, not a "tech demo" in the same presentation, which is a final testing stage just before a full release.

Another generalization here, but also an ad hominem: What role someone takes up has nothing to do with the logical merits of his or her argument. Also, there is a straw man argument here because you are misrepresenting the sense of BETA that is being used. This is an MMORPG forum, and here beta means early access, bugs, and wipes. I'm not going to argue what sense is being used, but in this sense calling PlaneShift a beta neither breaks nor defines the general rule. I do agree that open alpha would be more technically correct, but there is no such thing as an open alpha in the MMORPG world. MMORPG.com does not even categorize games as such.

Ad hominem (for the uneducated) means an arguement meant to discredit a testimony of someone because they have a undesireable/bias trait.  ie: The man in the bleachers calls the umpire blind because he called his kid "out" at first base.  

 Kemistri does list the undesireable / bias trait.  Everyone knows that if you create something, you're going to speak well of it.  This isn't an undesireable trait.  We all do it!  What he was saying, the players who have an objective opinion are not allowed to rate the game.  Their negative reviews are squelched.  This poses a unequal evaluation of what could be an average MMORPG.

Let me say this...  I've played a wide variety of fantasy MMORPGs over the years.  I started when it was just text.  We (my friends and I) would play anything we got our hands on... we enjoyed some.. others we banished to the "OMG, do not play this thing."  I even created an AD&D character generator.  I made the mistake of asking people for advise.  I got a LOT of questioning, argumentative email.  I finally created a forum for people to hear my general response to duplicate questions.  MOST, and I mean more then 90%, we're negative.  My response was simple.  Hey, you didn't have anything before.  At least this is a start... Wanna improve it?  Here's the source code.  And I dropped it in the message.  750,000 lines of code.  The mainframe at the college I was in wasn't happy about that.   But when some of the "naysayers" started to read the code and realized that I typed it all by hand.  I didn't hear as much negativity.  NO ONE tried to improve the program...

If you give people the best of what you have and they don't like it?  you have two responses... build 'em a better one... or ask them to help fix it!  If you don't have a map... Ask someone to create one for you.  There are people out here in the cyber world who do nothing else but stuff like that... they enjoy it!   Don't believe me?  Google the phrase "walkthrough" and see what I mean.

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Cookie cutter MMORPGs.   Hmmm.   Just out of curiosity... can you tell me one game that does NOT have a map?  That like saying boardgames (monopoly, etc) don't need a board : No playing field.    How will I know where something is that is not immediately visible on the screen?    Where are the NPCs?  Let's just run around and maybe I'll find it?  Or do you give it way?  Just follow the yellow brick road...

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Actually.. technically speaking... Most board games DO NOT require a board.. just like you don't need dice, just a random number generator. truthfully speaking, the way combat works on games is nothing more than board games simplified, though I'm sure you probably knew that already =). rock beats paper, paper covers rock, water extinguishes fire.. simple =) Roll the dice to see what number you get, if you land on free parking, you get a critical... simple. There are actually many successful games that don't have maps however, but, most of the truly great ones had explorable maps. however, most cookie-cutter mmorgps nowadays consider "exploring" to be a fault since most griefers don't like to think for themselves. A great deal of the non-map or blackened-map games lie within MMORTS games these days, however, It would be nice to see them make a comeback in rpgs. (dungeon crawls anyone? =p)

just checking in,

is Planeshift a game yet?

No.

But it does have a musical flushing toilet.

You don't get it at all, do you? Planeshift is NOT a game. It is an interractive fantqasy setting where people can forget lvling, gridning, becoming bigger and badder and all that crap and just kick back, relax, have some fun. This is a place for people to roleplay, to create interesting stories. build meaningfull communities and really give vent to the creative flame within them. Having a map is simply unrealistic. I mean how can a person in a medieval world have a minimap floating above his head?

Or be able to bring up a COMPLETE map of the world and see his postion in it at his will. Please, that's just stupid.

This is Ropleplay my friend, Roleplay.

Sigh...people have lost the old spirit where elves and dwarves would stand shoulder to shoulder and fight the evil of an approaching orc army. Nowadays all that you people want is to have a lvl 100 character with a Divine Armor set and a lvl 50 weapon or some such stuff. If you want that, why don't you just go play other games and leave this one alone? No one is ASKING you to play it, you know. Instead of leaving thesem comments you could have just clicked away.

But if you stay and flame PS, know that I will be there to take you down. Give respect, get respect. Keep that in mind.

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Originally posted by ChuckiSpux
But it does have a musical flushing toilet.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUnzYIYLSxs

Originally posted by kaylors

You don't get it at all, do you? Planeshift is NOT a game. It is an interractive fantqasy setting where people can forget lvling, gridning, becoming bigger and badder and all that crap and just kick back, relax, have some fun. This is a place for people to roleplay, to create interesting stories. build meaningfull communities and really give vent to the creative flame within them. Having a map is simply unrealistic. I mean how can a person in a medieval world have a minimap floating above his head?

Or be able to bring up a COMPLETE map of the world and see his postion in it at his will. Please, that's just stupid.

"You don't get it at all, do you? Planeshift is NOT a game. It is an interractive fantqasy setting where people can forget lvling, gridning, becoming bigger and badder and all that crap and just kick back, relax, have some fun. This is a place for people to roleplay, to create interesting stories. build meaningfull communities and really give vent to the creative flame within them." It sounds like an advertisement for a 3d chat world but is it??

What planeshift is pure and simple, is a game controlled by a few high level players that have control over developement, and administration that will hinder and discourage at every opputunity and sometimes even outright ban any player trying to advance into the upper echelons. The community that makes up the upper levels of Planeshift is a community that existed before Planeshift. Anytime you hear someone talking about roleplay, spoilers, community, UTOPIA, it's always one of these high level players spouting this crap. Just ask how you as a player can advance to their level and hear how it's not about advancing or leveling, it's about being part of the experience...............sound familiar??????????? It's not about advancing or leveling, but of course, You can't really enjoy the UTOPIA until you do. And then there is the excuse that tis game is just in developement. In developement for who?? And just exactly what is being tested??

       If you ever care to find out for yourself, just join planeshift as a low level player, and experience the UTOPIA!!!

I wouldn't have ever been interested in this game had you not posted about it. Before this post I had no idea that this game even existed.

Great!! The more the merrier!!! LMAO!!!!!