City of Heroes Forum » Paragon City Hall (General) » If Champions replaces this as the main superhero MMO, I think I know one reason why

Yes the pvp community had a list of things that they felt would make pvp more fun. If you actually read what castle posted you would see that he said "we tried all of the ideas that we were given. the problem was that every one of them did not make it more fun."

Every suggestion  seemed to be about adding more reward for pvp. None of them would do anything to make pvping more enjoyable. They also said that i13 was only the first step to the pvp revamp and it would be stretched over mulitiple issues. The idea is to bring more people into the pvp zones. though  some of the "hardcore" pvpers have left, many people have said that they are trying out pvp now. give it a couple more issues and you will most likely see the "hardcore" pvpers start filtering back in. Hopefully by the end of all this pvp work you will see a larger pvp population and some decent incentives for pvping.

---

Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie
Yes the pvp community had a list of things that they felt would make pvp more fun. If you actually read what castle posted you would see that he said "we tried all of the ideas that we were given. the problem was that every one of them did not make it more fun."
Every suggestion  seemed to be about adding more reward for pvp. None of them would do anything to make pvping more enjoyable. They also said that i13 was only the first step to the pvp revamp and it would be stretched over mulitiple issues. The idea is to bring more people into the pvp zones. though  some of the "hardcore" pvpers have left, many people have said that they are trying out pvp now. give it a couple more issues and you will most likely see the "hardcore" pvpers start filtering back in. Hopefully by the end of all this pvp work you will see a larger pvp population and some decent incentives for pvping.

---

Devs telling players what is more fun, god where have we heard this one before? When did rewards and enjoyment not go hand-in-hand? They are getting ready to release I15 I believe, is there any more PVP "enhancements"? Please help me, wasn't this PVP change also ushered in because of an eventual SG base PVP revamp? If so, any sign of that yet?

Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie

Yes the pvp community had a list of things that they felt would make pvp more fun. If you actually read what castle posted you would see that he said "we tried all of the ideas that we were given. the problem was that every one of them did not make it more fun."

Every suggestion  seemed to be about adding more reward for pvp. None of them would do anything to make pvping more enjoyable. They also said that i13 was only the first step to the pvp revamp and it would be stretched over mulitiple issues. The idea is to bring more people into the pvp zones. though  some of the "hardcore" pvpers have left, many people have said that they are trying out pvp now. give it a couple more issues and you will most likely see the "hardcore" pvpers start filtering back in. Hopefully by the end of all this pvp work you will see a larger pvp population and some decent incentives for pvping.

 I interacted with Castle directly over these changes: thoroughly and respectfully.  He responded in forums and in email.  He was also respectful, but seemed very committed to his agenda.

With respect, players never saw any attempts to implement the items suggested.  They were never offered to the community for testing, in any form whatsoever.

If the ideas were implemented, who did it?  How many of the recommendations were tested?  Who tested them and found them "not fun"?  Players didn't.

Did they ever fix the heavy spawning bug in the PvP zone?  Did they get rid of the exploitable areas in opposing bases?  Did they give certain builds mez protection that had none?  Did they modify hold powers so that people could no longer be held indefinitely until they died?  Did they recognize that the rewards in the PvP zones were tied to PvE, and that people then found the PvP a nuisance?  Did they shift those rewards to make them connected to PvP activities instead?  Did they make more slow and immobilize powers available to various archetypes for use in PvP to counter evasion tactics?

If they did any of these things, which I doubt, no players ever saw them.  These changes, although based on the original system, would have taken a lot of time and effort too.  Did Castle really try all of these things out?  I really doubt it.  Even if he did, like I said, players never saw it.  Shouldn't players have a say regarding what is "fun" in the game they are playing and paying for?

This was just really poorly done.  I think it was a bad idea, and the way it was pushed just caused a lot of bad feelings, sadly.

I think Castle and players wanted to achieve some common goals, but we were cut out of the process, after being asked for our input.  We had some helpful ideas to make PvP more accessible that would add to the game for some without destroying it for others.  Castle's approach seemed to miss this important concept.  Current players seemed shoved aside to make room for someone new. 

With more time and more collaboration, I think the real issues could have been addressed in a way that didn't cause such a division in the playerbase.  I bet Castle was given the mandate to "fix PvP," but was given very little time to do it.  Collaboration seemed to go out the window, and as a result I think the changes had a lot of unintended consequences that had people feeling unhappy.

Also, just so you know, the items on what's known as the PvP "wishlist" included items ranging from known bugs, to exploits, to some power balance issues (e.g. perma-holds).  One issue among all of these others was rewards for PvP.  We also suggested the dual builds--perhaps the one and only recommendation that was implemented (which was good btw).

Also, this whole concept of rewards for PvP was introduced to address the concerns of PvE players who felt griefed in the PvP zones.  They felt griefed because they would enter the PvP zone with no intention of PvPing.  They were therw to get Shivans or Rockets (pets and temporary buffs) to help them in a task force.  They probably had friends waiting for them to get the task force started too.  These rewards were entirely PvE centered.  PvPing with these folks would screw them up, and make their task force friends wait longer.  This discouraged PvP in a PvP zone, which quite frankly doesn't make a lot of sense.

What we suggested was that rewards in the PvP zone should be tied instead to PvP victories.  This way, people wouldn't feel griefed by PvP in a PvP zone.  Some people make this out to be some kind of selfish demand by the PvP community.  It wasn't.  It was a proposal to address a real issue that created bad feelings between PvP and PvE players.

I have to agree. I always thought PvP needed balancing (I never played a stalker, scrapper or blaster). But even playing the "underpowered" archetypes it sucks now.

Up until the recent patch I always though CoX was a near perfect game for the casual gamer. The PvP changes suck and the architect system has sucked everyone away from the rest of the game which becomes quite repetitive.

I've left this game quite sometime ago I think back in Oct of 08 was my last time in it is just too shallow for me all around and I just get the sense that there aren't any real fresh ideas in the team as I've even been offered trials for updates and such but still have not had the desire to return the games grind is still far too horrible and there is still just too little variety in this game, I've never played pvp so it's hard to comment on it but I can say after giving it some thought the only thing I truly miss about this game is the community and everyones willingness to work together which I realize is mostly due to the fact that you'd want to slit your own wrist if you tried to level solo in this game.  I really don't see much more hope for CO or DC either looks like an elaboration on this game which plays far too much like an arcade game for my tastes.

Originally posted by shad0w99

I have to agree. I always thought PvP needed balancing (I never played a stalker, scrapper or blaster). But even playing the "underpowered" archetypes it sucks now.

Up until the recent patch I always though CoX was a near perfect game for the casual gamer. The PvP changes suck and the architect system has sucked everyone away from the rest of the game which becomes quite repetitive.

I also thought CoH was nearly perfect.  I think it needed some PvP refinement (there were some real issues to address) and I think it could have used some variety as well.  We started to see variety with the Co-op zones (heroes and villains fighting together against the alien invasion, and in the new Roman taskforce).  We also saw some more depth with the introduction of crafting and the player auction house. 

Sadly, one of the things really affected by the PvP revamp was the crafting, buying and selling of enhancement sets.  A lot of questing, looting, crafting, buying and selling went out the window when a number of powers were removed or suppressed in PvP.  I really don't think taking away that much progress from players is justified, especially when you look at all the problems in the new system we were given.  Lots of pain, little gain.

Someone above mentioned the possibility of PvPers filtering back to CoH.  Again, that's why I checked the current status of the game.  If the CoH team could be big enough to admit that they rushed this revamp, cut us out of the process, and that this had unintended consequences, it would really get my attention.

If they then said, we're going to try this PvP thing over again, and this time do it right, I'd filter back.  Practically, I think this would mean going back to I12 PvP mechanics, and then working with the players, not against them, to find solutions to the bugs, exploits and issues that existed.  Plenty were put on the table, and we never got a chance to test them out.

Sure it would take time and effort, but I think it would be worth it.  It would make a better game, and it would build community rather than dividing it.    I also think gamers would find this kind of gesture refreshing.  If they're looking for ways to improve the game to compete with the other superhero MMOs, I think this gamble would be worth the effort.  They seem to be trying all kinds of things (e.g. architect, going rogue), why not try this?

PvP has never been even 20% of the main focus of this game, I don't see why players were shocked by anything.

Not that I ever cared about PvP in CoX, but this game's developers have always had a heavy hand with the nerf bat. It really does drive players away. But, isn't it odd how their stable their subscriptions are?

It's almost like - "Oh, no, we've attracted too new many players - what can we nerf to drive some of the older ones away?" :P

Still, I don't think CO will replace CoX. CO has higher system specs, more and different kinds of MTs (without previously having released years worth of free updates) and other game mechanics that won't be to everyone's liking.

CoX will almost certainly lose some subscribers - but I don't think it'll lose all of them.

I cut down on pvp drastically with i12, then quit the game completely when MA came out because it was converted into a farming machine. If you ask me, the state of CoH/V just gets worse these days, pvp was fun without the travel suppression, they did it to allow more casual players to pvp but they forgot that it also made the hardcore pvpers much stronger.

It's sad to see the state of a game degrade over time that I've played since early 2005, but it's a familiar thing- SOE doing it to SWG. Issue 7 was the best thing done to this game, but ever since after that it hasn't been the same.

Originally posted by Loke666

I don't think Champions will replace CoX. Mostly because you cant play a villain in champions, so either people will stay in CoX or go to DCU.

What kind of crap is making a game without the possibility tp play both sides anyways?

But it seems like NC soft are trying to see how much they can upset the playerbase, it have been a lot of complains after each update since they bought the game.

I read this "CO doesn't have villains" stuff a lot - the fact is most people who play CoH don't play villains anyway: CoV has FAR lower populations on all the servers, and hardly anyone PvPs anyway.

After hearing negative feedback from some of the Champions Online beta testers, I don't think the game will be that great.

Originally posted by havok527

After hearing negative feedback from some of the Champions Online beta testers, I don't think the game will be that great.

Agreed. As the game stands now, it has nothing to fear from Champions.

I realy wouldn't hold my breath for champions. It is very medicore and even though I was excited for the game I got realy bored after half an hour maby even less.

This game dissapoints on so many levels it's quite frankly the oposite of fun. But hay, thats just my opinion.

Some of the stuff I hear about Champions sounds like I might be curious. Were the beta free I'd try it out and then maybe buy. But since I either have to pre-order the game or subscribe to fileplanet ($15 minimum payment) for a game that goes live in 12 days, I'll pass.

As a CoH player I'll hear TONS of feedback on CO over the next few months and can decide form that, without having to be in the shaky pre-nerf days. I know that when open beta opened and they broke the game with their patch, that was all over the global channels in CoH.

Originally posted by Amarsir

Some of the stuff I hear about Champions sounds like I might be curious. Were the beta free I'd try it out and then maybe buy. But since I either have to pre-order the game or subscribe to fileplanet ($15 minimum payment) for a game that goes live in 12 days, I'll pass.

QFT

Last time I had to pay to get into a beta the game was awful. The developers were just looking to make a quick buck before everyone found out how crappy their game was. The "beta" was terrible and riddled with bugs. The "game" was mostly playable but there was nothing to really do other than grind levels. None of the features the devs had claimed their game would have were actually in the game in any sense. I didn't even get the impression the game was even designed to do such things or that the devs even really knew what they were doing at all. People started to complain and ask for refunds. A few lucky souls got refunds before the devs quickly locked everything down and stopped giving anyone anything. Many of the devs dissapeared and the official forums were sent into a state of panic. The mods just banned everyone who said anything negative about the game and deleted their posts. Later when the game actually released, the devs kept charging monthly subscription fees from people who had already cancelled their accounts in beta.

And the name of the game that did all this? Dark and Light.

The moral of the story is that you should never pay to get into a beta. Its always a last ditch effort from the developer to make a quick buck off of you before their game gets released and it becomes common knowledge that it doesn't live up to the hype.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by Amarsir

Some of the stuff I hear about Champions sounds like I might be curious. Were the beta free I'd try it out and then maybe buy. But since I either have to pre-order the game or subscribe to fileplanet ($15 minimum payment) for a game that goes live in 12 days, I'll pass.

 

QFT

Last time I had to pay to get into a beta the game was awful. The developers were just looking to make a quick buck before everyone found out how crappy their game was. The "beta" was terrible and riddled with bugs. The "game" was mostly playable but there was nothing to really do other than grind levels. None of the features the devs had claimed their game would have were actually in the game in any sense. I didn't even get the impression the game was even designed to do such things or that the devs even really knew what they were doing at all. People started to complain and ask for refunds. A few lucky souls got refunds before the devs quickly locked everything down and stopped giving anyone anything. Many of the devs dissapeared and the official forums were sent into a state of panic. The mods just banned everyone who said anything negative about the game and deleted their posts. Later when the game actually released, the devs kept charging monthly subscription fees from people who had already cancelled their accounts in beta.

And the name of the game that did all this? Dark and Light.

The moral of the story is that you should never pay to get into a beta. Its always a last ditch effort from the developer to make a quick buck off of you before their game gets released and it becomes common knowledge that it doesn't live up to the hype.

But you don't pay to Cryptic to play the beta, you pay for a subscription for Fileplanet - who gives you the beta code.

I posted above about CO but after a few days I have to say it's pretty fun. MMO-fun that is, for what's it worth.

Originally posted by Saurus930

But you don't pay to Cryptic to play the beta, you pay for a subscription for Fileplanet - who gives you the beta code.

Does it matter who I'm paying? If I'm paying for a beta at all its still wrong.

Plus, do you REALLY think that Cryptic just said to themselves "Hey, you know what would be funny? Lets give all of our beta access codes to some random third party to distribute for no reason at all. They can even charge money for them if they want." File Planet knows that nobody would ever sign up for their services otherwise (after all, you can download from their servers for free and torrents have made them nearly obsolete anyway) so they are PAYING Cryptic for the rights to use beta access to CO as a way to promote their services.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by Saurus930

But you don't pay to Cryptic to play the beta, you pay for a subscription for Fileplanet - who gives you the beta code.

 

Does it matter who I'm paying? If I'm paying for a beta at all its still wrong.

Plus, do you REALLY think that Cryptic just said to themselves "Hey, you know what would be funny? Lets give all of our beta access codes to some random third party to distribute for no reason at all. They can even charge money for them if they want." File Planet knows that nobody would ever sign up for their services otherwise (after all, you can download from their servers for free and torrents have made them nearly obsolete anyway) so they are PAYING Cryptic for the rights to use beta access to CO as a way to promote their services.

That's true

But... paying isn't the only way to join the Beta. Just like other games, some ppl get an invite, some get it through pre-ordering, but most people never get into the beta. Then if some ppl are so desperate to join betas that they pay for it... then fine, someone somewhere is laughing all the way to the bank.

Originally posted by Saurus930

But... paying isn't the only way to join the Beta. Just like other games, some ppl get an invite, some get it through pre-ordering, but most people never get into the beta. 

And yet, they are calling it an "open" beta even though its not actually open to everyone. Now perhaps you are seeing the problem?