http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Dev&Number=12783917&page=0&fpart=35

35 PAGES now of ongoing negative feedback about the unwanted PVP revamp in Issue 13, and a lot of us have quit and can't even post there anymore.

We tried to tell them, we really did.  People with teleport can't teleport?  That's nuts.  Superjumpers can't superjump?  Crazy.  Those with superspeed can't run superfast?  Healers have their healing borked for themselves and others by diminishing returns?  Launching an attack glues you in place?  Asking for input from your PvP players and then almost completely ignoring it in favour of a sweeping, unwanted revamp?  Oi vey.

Yeah so glad I left way back when I did. There were so many issues already. But at least you could blaze around at the speed of light in pvp which made the game interesting... All I see now is how pvp is totally borked when I read their forums. Funny, they finally made it so you could ahve a pvp build but busted evertyhing else

I got so tired of paying devs money that could care less bout pvp. Their attitude was always poor. I doubt Champions willahve good pvp they never cared bout it either. All I see in their vids is a bunch lame AIs that look more still than CoX mobs.

come on this supposed to be a superhero MMO devs

Originally posted by PatchDay

Yeah so glad I left way back when I did. There were so many issues already. But at least you could blaze around at the speed of light in pvp which made the game interesting... All I see now is how pvp is totally borked when I read their forums. Funny, they finally made it so you could ahve a pvp build but busted evertyhing else

 

I got so tired of paying devs money that could care less bout pvp. Their attitude was always poor. I doubt Champions willahve good pvp they never cared bout it either. All I see in their vids is a bunch lame AIs that look more still than CoX mobs.

 

come on this supposed to be a superhero MMO devs

 

 

Yeah the superspeed was a real trip.  I used to love chasing another guy that also had superspeed.  I had mine decked out with crafted enhancements, so I could usually squeek out just a little more speed and get close enough to hit 'em with a web grenade.  Then the fight was on.  It was also pretty funny if one of us smacked into a bus shelter at Mach 3 during a chase lol.

Sadly, they just removed that whole part of the game.  Superspeed became superlame.  All the enhancements crafted in sets for travel powers became useless (a complete waste of months of gameplay and character building), and now using web grenades slows the user down.  How backwards is that?

Thing is, we pointed all this out in closed beta, open beta, and right after it went live.  Didn't listen though...damn shame.  They lost a lot of players and a good community rep at the time too.

Man this is so crazy I cant believe they would do something like this. What a way to chase yer pvp fans into the arms of Champions. Let's just hope they try to keep pvp in mind from ground up but I'm highly doubtful.

sucks man. I think I last played around issue 11 or something... Had some good times. used to do the samething, superspeed + webs via my Arachnos Epic power

I've heard rumors that I can't substantiate that they're re-revamping PvP. Supposedly some stuff coming out with I15. I've never been much of a PvPer, so I haven't been paying much attention.

Wow. I13 was 2 issues ago. They are still working on pvp.

And just so you know the only pvp in champions is an underground arena that your heroes can fight in.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

We tried to tell them, we really did.  People with teleport can't teleport?  That's nuts.  Superjumpers can't superjump?  Crazy.  Those with superspeed can't run superfast?  Healers have their healing borked for themselves and others by diminishing returns?  Launching an attack glues you in place?  Asking for input from your PvP players and then almost completely ignoring it in favour of a sweeping, unwanted revamp?  Oi vey.

ArcAngel3, I'm a bit confused here I think. Usually your posts on this site are pretty well thought out and informative. Some of your posts on the subject of SWG/SOE are my favorite posts on this entire site. But this post... isnt' so good.

As another poster pointed out, i13 was quite awhile ago and we are on i14 now with i15 just around the corner. So I'm sort of mystified as to why anyone would still be talking about i13 after all this time has passed.

And secondly, whats this thing about super jumpers not super jumping? I've played CoX since i13 (in fact I joined the game right after i13 if I recall correctly) and I've super jumped in PvP areas. I've watched other players super jump in PvP areas. I've fought aginst players that super jumped to get away from me. I've super jumped after them. That right there tells me something is iffy about your post this time.

All of this stuff happened over a year ago it seems like. It wasn't nearly as big of a deal as it was made out to be and its quite well over by now. I won't pretend this game has great PvP because it doesn't, but I don't think i13 made things any better or any worse. So why keep talking about this a year later?

Originally posted by Wikkedbowtie

Wow. I13 was 2 issues ago. They are still working on pvp.

And just so you know the only pvp in champions is an underground arena that your heroes can fight in.

If you read the link, you'd see that the most recent comments are from those that were apparently the intended audience of the PVP revamp.  They don't seem to like it either.  So, the information is about current player feedback.
 

You say issue 13 was two issues ago.  Did you forget that issue 14 was originally advertised as being part of issue 13?  They just took one big issue that was taking them too long to release and divided it up.  They gave us the unwanted revamp first and made us wait for the Architect.  I honeslty wish they would have scrapped the revamp, like so many people asked them to, and put all of their resources into getting the Architect out to us.

I believe you feel a need to defend this game (based on all of your responses to me), but I hope you can at least admit that the PvP revamp was very poorly received and that it continues to be poorly received even by some of the players it was supposedly made for.

You say they're still working on it.  Well, hopefully they'll actually listen to their players at some point.  Travel suppression and diminishing returns for heals etc. were two major changes that seem largely despised.  Maybe if they give people the use of their powers and enhancement sets back (it's a superhero game isn't it?), and apologize for such a poorly thought out revamp, they'll get some of the players and credibility back.

If instead we keep hearing things like, "it's old news,"  Champions is going to look very appealing.  And yes I'm aware of the PvP options in Champions.  I'm pretty sure they're farther along than they were at CoH's release.  Cryptic has a habit of releasing a solid core game and then adding components to it, like expanded PvP.  Villains didn't even come to the City of Games until Issue 6, and the high level PvP zone (my favourite, which became empty after the revamp) didn't enter the game until Issue 7.

The longer they stick with the current PvP mess, the worse I think it will be for the game's population, and the better the other superhero games are going to look.

I've seen bad revamps before in games.  What I've yet to see is a company actually admit they screwed up, apologize and put things back together the way people liked them.  They usually just say that the revamp is a good idea, even though the players disagree.  Why is that?  If the players don't like the changes, why push them?  Is it pride or something?  Can't developers admit when their idea just didn't work out the way they had hoped?

I don't think Champions will replace CoX. Mostly because you cant play a villain in champions, so either people will stay in CoX or go to DCU.

What kind of crap is making a game without the possibility tp play both sides anyways?

But it seems like NC soft are trying to see how much they can upset the playerbase, it have been a lot of complains after each update since they bought the game.

Even without taking PvP into consideration, it's a pretty solid bet that Champions is going to mop the floor with CoX. DCO will probably be better than champions for the PvP-inclined though.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

 

 

We tried to tell them, we really did.  People with teleport can't teleport?  That's nuts.  Superjumpers can't superjump?  Crazy.  Those with superspeed can't run superfast?  Healers have their healing borked for themselves and others by diminishing returns?  Launching an attack glues you in place?  Asking for input from your PvP players and then almost completely ignoring it in favour of a sweeping, unwanted revamp?  Oi vey.

 

 

ArcAngel3, I'm a bit confused here I think. Usually your posts on this site are pretty well thought out and informative. Some of your posts on the subject of SWG/SOE are my favorite posts on this entire site. But this post... isnt' so good.

As another poster pointed out, i13 was quite awhile ago and we are on i14 now with i15 just around the corner. So I'm sort of mystified as to why anyone would still be talking about i13 after all this time has passed.

And secondly, whats this thing about super jumpers not super jumping? I've played CoX since i13 (in fact I joined the game right after i13 if I recall correctly) and I've super jumped in PvP areas. I've watched other players super jump in PvP areas. I've fought aginst players that super jumped to get away from me. I've super jumped after them. That right there tells me something is iffy about your post this time.

All of this stuff happened over a year ago it seems like. It wasn't nearly as big of a deal as it was made out to be and its quite well over by now. I won't pretend this game has great PvP because it doesn't, but I don't think i13 made things any better or any worse. So why keep talking about this a year later?

See note regarding Issue 13 and 14 being one issue to begin with.  Only the architect has come out since the issue 13 revamp, and the architect was originally marketted as the main feature of Issue 13.   

Superjump was suppressed.  Your jumps are far less super.  Superspeed was suppressed.  Your speed is far less super.  Teleport was eliminated for those that have had any contact with an enemy.  It simply greys out.  If you attack or are attacked, you can't use it.  It's that simple.  The superjumping you're seeing, is not the superjumping I and many of us used to experience--not even close.  You're seeing suppressed travel powers, and it is this suppression that was so widely criticized.

Also, again, if you check the link I posted in the O.P., you'll see that I've observed that even people for whom the PvP changes were made are currently (as in right now) unhappy with the changes.  Champions release is coming soon.  Therefore it would seem to be in the best interest of CoH, and you current players, for them to address all the negative fallout they continue to receive.  The negative comments from the PvP revamp were still on the front page of the forums, and marked as hot, last week.  (Still there today in the developer forum, I just checked).

This issue isn't going away, and the competition for the superhero genre is about to heat up.  Hence the timing of my thread--a wake-up for NCsoft if you wll.  Let's see if they do anything about it.  I believe it would be in your best interest if they did.

I'm glad you've enjoyed my posts about SWG.  Most of those were wake-up calls as well, with the hope that SOE would recognize where they were going wrong and make changes to benefit the game and the players.  Most (all?) of these were generally ignored, sadly, and many current players of the game never seemed able to recognize any of the valid and potentially helpful information in the threads.  They seemed to be too defensive of their favourite MMO to recognize any truth in what I was saying.

Instead, I got lots of "this is old news comments,"  and the game continued to go from bad to worse.  Hopefully that won't happen with CoH, but I guess time will tell.

P.S. The feedback thread for the PvP revamp was opened on this date: 12/11/08.  That's December 08.  So it definitely has not been a year since this issue.  It's been roughly 6 months.  Even this isn't what I'm commenting on though.  I'm pointing out that the negative comments continued coming in throughtout the month of May 09, even from those for whom the revamp was made.  That's days ago, not over a year ago.  I'm thinking of subscribing to Champions.  Before doing this, however, I wanted to see if they had finally listened to players in CoH about the unwanted PvP revamp.  The answer appears to be "no."  If they had, CoH would be the more appealing MMO.  Since they haven't, I'm leaning towards Champions.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Dev&Number=12783917&page=0&fpart=35

35 PAGES now of ongoing negative feedback about the unwanted PVP revamp in Issue 13, and a lot of us have quit and can't even post there anymore.

We tried to tell them, we really did.  People with teleport can't teleport?  That's nuts.  Superjumpers can't superjump?  Crazy.  Those with superspeed can't run superfast?  Healers have their healing borked for themselves and others by diminishing returns?  Launching an attack glues you in place?  Asking for input from your PvP players and then almost completely ignoring it in favour of a sweeping, unwanted revamp?  Oi vey.

I don't know anything about these revamps but the revamps you are talking about do sound like utter shite.

Originally posted by deathtripp

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Dev&Number=12783917&page=0&fpart=35

35 PAGES now of ongoing negative feedback about the unwanted PVP revamp in Issue 13, and a lot of us have quit and can't even post there anymore.

We tried to tell them, we really did.  People with teleport can't teleport?  That's nuts.  Superjumpers can't superjump?  Crazy.  Those with superspeed can't run superfast?  Healers have their healing borked for themselves and others by diminishing returns?  Launching an attack glues you in place?  Asking for input from your PvP players and then almost completely ignoring it in favour of a sweeping, unwanted revamp?  Oi vey.

 

I don't know anything about these revamps but the revamps you are talking about do sound like utter shite.

Most recent comments on the official forums (May 09) sum things up pretty well:

"I rarely played pvp before this revamp. I'm supposed to be the target of this pvp revamp (attract non-hardcore and pve players, i'm in the 2nd category).

I tested some pvp on my SS/Fire brute tonight. I went in RV with my pve build, then decided to use my alternate build for a pvp respec.

I checked Mids and saw that Flurry, Kick, Jump Kick... etc were much better than any of my attacks ! What's even the point of having a primary ? Isnt it a game where choosing a certain combo of powersets actually means something ?

Now I wish you could revert to old i11-i12 pvp (even if I rarely played it)... at least there was some thought involved in building a pvp toon back there. I regret I cant play this old pvp anymore now.

I dont think I will try the new pvp anytime soon, at least as long as it's in this state."

and,

" PvP was a bit cracked, I'll grant you... but i13 completely broke it, then stitched it back together into some Frankenstein creature that is now unrecognizable.

That is my first grief, the second is the utter STUPIDITY of travel power suppression.

I'm sorry... but while running enemies was slightly annoying, being glued to the floor while getting ganked is MUCH MORE. Now it is impossible to pick your battles... you see them, they see you... attacks happen.... both are glued to the ground... you fight.

Yay. Fun.

*sigh* The only reason I still play CoX is that someone else is paying my subscription so that they can have two accounts when they need it. And then not often...

I really hope Champions Online comes out soon so I can get away from this train wreck that has become CoX... maybe I can come back later when they have cleared away some of the wreckage."

I read these recent comments made by current players and felt no desire whatsoever to return to CoH, and Champions looks better in contrast.  If I'm thinking like this, I wouldn't be surprised if other former players are having similar thoughts. 

The revamp was just a real momentum killer.  No one saw it coming.  NCsoft had been hyping the architect, and we were all good and hyped.  Then the architect was delayed and the unwanted revamp hit us, taking the fun out of the PvP game for us, making many of our powers useless, along with all the work we put into our builds and crafted enhancement sets that had just recently been introduced into the game.  The revamp was, simply put, a real buzz kill, at a time when the game needed a boost.

At a time when you want your core players sharing their excitement about new features coming out, many of us were alienated.  I really think if this game gets edged out by Champions that this will be looked upon as one of the turning points.
 

Just as a wild guestimate, I'd say 80% of players have never tried PvP.  It was kinda interesting back when it was first in beta, but the nerfs started right away.  They ended up with a massively imperfect system that they never fixed in any satisfactory way, and what exists in game now is a horrid little homonculus of a system designed to make everyone a cardboard cutout in a game that should be promoting and encouraging exceptional characters.

These developers have consistently missed the boat.

Originally posted by Loke666

I don't think Champions will replace CoX. Mostly because you cant play a villain in champions, so either people will stay in CoX or go to DCU.

What kind of crap is making a game without the possibility tp play both sides anyways?

But it seems like NC soft are trying to see how much they can upset the playerbase, it have been a lot of complains after each update since they bought the game.

They have "Said" that they will release it later on. Besides, CoV didn't come out when CoH did.

CoX is not a pvp game.  Its the games only weak point.

but for everything else you want in an MMO, CoX kicks ass.. I'm in the CO beta and Id have to say that I find City of Heroes a lot more fun.

If you want pvp, then Aion will be my game of choice.

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Superjump was suppressed.  Your jumps are far less super.  Superspeed was suppressed.  Your speed is far less super.  Teleport was eliminated for those that have had any contact with an enemy.  It simply greys out.  If you attack or are attacked, you can't use it.  It's that simple.  The superjumping you're seeing, is not the superjumping I and many of us used to experience--not even close.  You're seeing suppressed travel powers, and it is this suppression that was so widely criticized.

Also, again, if you check the link I posted in the O.P., you'll see that I've observed that even people for whom the PvP changes were made are currently (as in right now) unhappy with the changes. 

P.S. The feedback thread for the PvP revamp was opened on this date: 12/11/08.  That's December 08.  So it definitely has not been a year since this issue.  It's been roughly 6 months.  Even this isn't what I'm commenting on though.  I'm pointing out that the negative comments continued coming in throughtout the month of May 09, even from those for whom the revamp was made.  That's days ago, not over a year ago. 

As I said before, I've been in PvP since the revamp and I'm 99.99% sure that the changes you are talking about are either not happening or are so minor that they are not even noticeable. I super jumped and did not feel as though my jumping was any less effective in the PvP area than it would have been in a PvE area. If it was suppressed then it was not suppressed such that anyone would have actually noticed. Myself and members of my team also had an extended PvP battle with another player who had super jumping and was quite effective at jumping away as soon as I would close in for a melee attack. If her powers were suppressed I was not seeing that either. From my perspective it seems that there are still many people who enjoy the PvP in this game and are quite capable of making effective character builds for it in spite of any "changes" that may or may not have been made by i13.

I think I made a mistake previously when I said I joined the game right after i13. I must have joined right after i12. I know I joined almost exactly one year ago because I just recently got my one year veteran badge. I was there when all the PvP players started ranting about how the new changes were going to ruin everything and how all of them were leaving. I was as confused by it then as I am now because I've yet to see anyone clearly explain exactly how these changes are doing any harm. The changes barely seem to do ANYTHING AT ALL from what I have seen. And based on that, I just can't figure out why we are all still fighting about it. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

When the SWG NGE happened it was a major overhaul of the game that reset everyone to level 1, removed most of the classes from the game and changed pretty much all the rules of gameplay. THAT was clearly a serious issue because it effected everyone. I don't think what is happening here to CoX is anything that even comes close to that. These changes everyone is so afraid of only effect PvP and as I've already pointed out, the changes seem so minor that they are almost impossible to notice. I think the people who are complaining about these changes are crying wolf as if this were the NGE all over again... and yet when I actually go searching for evidence of this wolf there is no wolf anywhere to be found...

Furthermore, the suggestion that CoX is dead meat because of all the new super hero games coming out just doesn't fly with me. My interest in Champions Online is minimal and there isn't any way in hell I would touch DC Universe. I never played CoX because it was a "Super Hero" game. I am not overly fond of super heroes and I haven't read a single comic book in my life. I played this game because it had a fast paced combat system, reasonably flexable character development and a HUGE amount of options to customize the appearance of your character. So for me the only game that will compete aginst CoX is the next game that offers those same features in a more complete way. I have my eye on a few games, but most of them are still pretty far off. I don't see a doomsday for CoX any time in the near future.

The kind of people who will run out and jump on the Champions Online band wagon just because its a newer game are probably the same kind of people who ran out and bought a Sega Dreamcast. And I'm sure we all remember how THAT ended...

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

Superjump was suppressed.  Your jumps are far less super.  Superspeed was suppressed.  Your speed is far less super.  Teleport was eliminated for those that have had any contact with an enemy.  It simply greys out.  If you attack or are attacked, you can't use it.  It's that simple.  The superjumping you're seeing, is not the superjumping I and many of us used to experience--not even close.  You're seeing suppressed travel powers, and it is this suppression that was so widely criticized.

Also, again, if you check the link I posted in the O.P., you'll see that I've observed that even people for whom the PvP changes were made are currently (as in right now) unhappy with the changes. 

P.S. The feedback thread for the PvP revamp was opened on this date: 12/11/08.  That's December 08.  So it definitely has not been a year since this issue.  It's been roughly 6 months.  Even this isn't what I'm commenting on though.  I'm pointing out that the negative comments continued coming in throughtout the month of May 09, even from those for whom the revamp was made.  That's days ago, not over a year ago. 

 

As I said before, I've been in PvP since the revamp and I'm 99.99% sure that the changes you are talking about are either not happening or are so minor that they are not even noticeable. I super jumped and did not feel as though my jumping was any less effective in the PvP area than it would have been in a PvE area. If it was suppressed then it was not suppressed such that anyone would have actually noticed. Myself and members of my team also had an extended PvP battle with another player who had super jumping and was quite effective at jumping away as soon as I would close in for a melee attack. If her powers were suppressed I was not seeing that either. From my perspective it seems that there are still many people who enjoy the PvP in this game and are quite capable of making effective character builds for it in spite of any "changes" that may or may not have been made by i13.

I think I made a mistake previously when I said I joined the game right after i13. I must have joined right after i12. I know I joined almost exactly one year ago because I just recently got my one year veteran badge. I was there when all the PvP players started ranting about how the new changes were going to ruin everything and how all of them were leaving. I was as confused by it then as I am now because I've yet to see anyone clearly explain exactly how these changes are doing any harm. The changes barely seem to do ANYTHING AT ALL from what I have seen. And based on that, I just can't figure out why we are all still fighting about it. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

When the SWG NGE happened it was a major overhaul of the game that reset everyone to level 1, removed most of the classes from the game and changed pretty much all the rules of gameplay. THAT was clearly a serious issue because it effected everyone. I don't think what is happening here to CoX is anything that even comes close to that. These changes everyone is so afraid of only effect PvP and as I've already pointed out, the changes seem so minor that they are almost impossible to notice. I think the people who are complaining about these changes are crying wolf as if this were the NGE all over again... and yet when I actually go searching for evidence of this wolf there is no wolf anywhere to be found...

Furthermore, the suggestion that CoX is dead meat because of all the new super hero games coming out just doesn't fly with me. My interest in Champions Online is minimal and there isn't any way in hell I would touch DC Universe. I never played CoX because it was a "Super Hero" game. I am not overly fond of super heroes and I haven't read a single comic book in my life. I played this game because it had a fast paced combat system, reasonably flexable character development and a HUGE amount of options to customize the appearance of your character. So for me the only game that will compete aginst CoX is the next game that offers those same features in a more complete way. I have my eye on a few games, but most of them are still pretty far off. I don't see a doomsday for CoX any time in the near future.

The kind of people who will run out and jump on the Champions Online band wagon just because its a newer game are probably the same kind of people who ran out and bought a Sega Dreamcast. And I'm sure we all remember how THAT ended...

changes:

-Slow powers do not slow people anymore anywhere near the way the used to.  You can go right through them.

-Hold powers do not hold people anywhere near as effectively as they used to and they do much less damage.

-Assassinate powers do much less damage than they used to.  You used to be able to sneak up on people and really put them in danger of death if they didn't evade very quickly.

-Teleport powers are switched off if you launch an attack or are attacked.  You can't use them, at all.

-Teleport foe powers now reduce the damage you can do to the foe and or make them unable to be hit for a limited time.  You used to teleport foes and then attack them, doing regular damage.

-Superspeed powers are incredibly slowed as soon as you yourself launch an attack, or as soon as someone hits you with an attack.

-Superjump powers are incredibly reduced as soon as you launch an attack or are attacked by someone else.

-Healing powers when used are now diminished each and every time you use them.  This also affects those around you for area heals, ruining any self-healing strategy they may have been using.

-Buff powers are also incredibly reduced, leaving buffing characters wondering why they should bother entering the zone.

-Mez protection powers (protection powers for melee toons against ranged holds etc.) were eliminated completely.  Those with ranged holds used to have to stack them on you before they took effect.  This would give you a chance to get in close to them for a melee hit.  Now, with the changes, no mez protection whatsoever.  If you're a melee toon, and someone wants to hold you from range, they will--over and over and over again.

All of these powers that had reductions, suppressions, eliminations were filled with enhancement sets that were crafted over a period of months with rare loot, or purchased for a lot of money.  With the powers becoming useless or suppressed, these enhancement sets also became useless.

Character diversity, strategy, fast-paced 3D movement, team strategies involving buffing and healing have all been removed from the game via these changes.  What you have now is more toe-to-toe button mashing, which a lot of pvpers (like myself) find very mind-numbing in comparison to what we had prior to I13.

Does that clarify for you?

I'd also like to point out that it's no surprise that this has not been clear, since you were not very familiar with the PvP game before all the radical changes.  Those of us who were familiar with it are more painfully aware of all the losses and consequences.

Also, on a community level, the community rep. Lighthouse (now gone from NCsoft btw) got feedback from organized PvP reps on how to fix the bugs and issues in the PvP game.  There was a checklist of high priority items generated.  The devs chucked almost all of this hard work done by Lighthouse and players into the trash can and forced this unwanted revamp on us.  Lighthouse also said that this was being done to cater to a new audience, not those currently enjoying the PvP game.  So, our input was tossed out, and we were labelled expendable.

Does that clarify things further in terms of why players were so frustrated?

P.S. NGE did not reset everyone to level 1 in SWG.  There was a conversion ratio that took your skills into account (to some extent).  I ended up losing a number of levels in the conversion, but certainly didn't reset to 1.  NGE did a lot of nasty things, but that wasn't one of them.  Also, I think if you compare any game revamp to the NGE, the other game is going to come out looking better.  The NGE, according to some of its own developers, was just that bad.  Nothing really compares in my experience.

Having said that, I think the information I've provided above may give you some insight into why so many of us PvPers hit the cancel button, or simply let our subs run out.  Oh I should probably point out that many of the bugs and issues we did highlight were not addressed (e.g. exploitable areas in hero, villain bases where you could hide in the base and kill opponents without being droned, pets not spawning correctly, rampant smack-talking of a personally offensive nature, no meaningful rewards tied directly to PvP combat etc.)  Also new imbalances were created.  Player powers were reduced or switched off, but NPC powers in the PvP zones remained just as strong as ever.  So, those that used to go to the PvP zones to get NPC mobs or missions found themselves at a real disadvantage.  Something that was designed to entice PvE players to enter the zones actually had the opposite effect. 

Like I said, all of this was clearly explained to the devs in closed beta, open beta and in the thread I linked after I13 went live.  Did they listen?  Sadly, no; and according to the feedback thread on the Official Forums, they still haven't.  Did they even understand the consequences of their actions?  (Shrug) Maybe not.  My point is that this had a significant impact on the game's momentum at a time when it really needed a boost.  Now there is a group of alienated superhero MMO gamers looking for a new place to play. 

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

changes:

-Superspeed powers are incredibly slowed as soon as you yourself launch an attack, or as soon as someone hits you with an attack.

-Superjump powers are incredibly reduced as soon as you launch an attack or are attacked by someone else. 

Well that explains why your claim that Superjump powers were different in PvP was wrong. They work like that EVERYWHERE.

Flight  and super speed as well. And its been that was since before i13 as far as I'm aware. If you attack someone your "long range" travel power is downgraded for a few seconds to the "short range" travel power. "Flight" becomes "hover" and "super jump" becomes "combat jumping" and so forth. This applies in PvE areas of the game as well. I'm sure that this is done in order to prevent people with ranged powers from constantly kiting away from their opponents and making it impossible for melee combatants to ever get a chance to defend themselves. Considering this applies to both PvE and PvP areas of the game and that it makes perferct sense, I can't possibly understand how you could complain about it or include it in your list of  "PvP Changes" for that matter.

The rest of those items on your list of "changes" to PvP seem equally shady to me and I'm still not convinced any of those changes are causing all the problems you say they are. Because I'll say it again: I've seen the PvP in this game and it is not just button mashing as you claim. I've seen many interesting builds and many interesting people. Just Straight "button mashing" without any strategy  would not work at all, I promise you. I saw a brute once with a crappy build once who thought just running up to my team and attacking would be a fine strategy and I beat his face in single handed. I don't claim to be the best or most experienced PvPer out there but I've seen enough to know this game isn't what you say it is.

So this theory that you have that everyone is going to suddenly up and leave this game for Champions Online just because of this PvP thing simply does NOT fly for me. You are crying wolf and yet there is no wolf anywhere to be found. In the worst case scenario what you have here is a shaggy dog in need of a bath. An annoyance to be sure but no excuse to raise the alarm bells. And even less of an excuse to still be complaining about it six months later. If you think some other super hero game is going to come out in the next year that won't have atleast a few shaggy dogs around then all I can say to you is GOOD LUCK with that.

I think you should go back to starting threads about NGE conspiracy theories since you seemed a lot better at it when it came to SWG than you are with this game. And if you really think Champions Online is going to be such a better game when its released then you have my blessing to go play it for yourself and find out. Meanwhile the last thing THIS forum needs is more threads about "OMG I'm quitting the game because I didn't like what they did with this issue! WAH!"

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

changes:

-Slow powers do not slow people anymore anywhere near the way the used to.  You can go right through them.

-Hold powers do not hold people anywhere near as effectively as they used to and they do much less damage.

-Assassinate powers do much less damage than they used to.  You used to be able to sneak up on people and really put them in danger of death if they didn't evade very quickly.

-Teleport powers are switched off if you launch an attack or are attacked.  You can't use them, at all.

-Teleport foe powers now reduce the damage you can do to the foe and or make them unable to be hit for a limited time.  You used to teleport foes and then attack them, doing regular damage.

-Superspeed powers are incredibly slowed as soon as you yourself launch an attack, or as soon as someone hits you with an attack.

-Superjump powers are incredibly reduced as soon as you launch an attack or are attacked by someone else.

-Healing powers when used are now diminished each and every time you use them.  This also affects those around you for area heals, ruining any self-healing strategy they may have been using.

-Buff powers are also incredibly reduced, leaving buffing characters wondering why they should bother entering the zone.

-Mez protection powers (protection powers for melee toons against ranged holds etc.) were eliminated completely.  Those with ranged holds used to have to stack them on you before they took effect.  This would give you a chance to get in close to them for a melee hit.  Now, with the changes, no mez protection whatsoever.  If you're a melee toon, and someone wants to hold you from range, they will--over and over and over again.

All of these powers that had reductions, suppressions, eliminations were filled with enhancement sets that were crafted over a period of months with rare loot, or purchased for a lot of money.  With the powers becoming useless or suppressed, these enhancement sets also became useless.

I've never really gotten into PVP in CoX though I've played (fairly casually) for years... got bored with the endless kiting, lockdown mezzing, one-shotting Stalkers, invincible Bubble-buffers and general inability to compete with someone decked out with a full load of rare Enhancements.

What's that you say? That's all gone now?! They've tried to make it more accessible to people other than the embittered `lifer' PVPers who are now rage-quitting? Pardon my lack of sympathy for your impassioned plea, but whether or not I decide to get into it more in the future (and I am tempted), I certainly won't be shedding a tear for the 'good ole days' of CoX PVP.

And as for the idea that now the CoX community will be flocking in droves to Champions because of these (now old) changes, I think you've seriously overestimated the number of 'hardcore' PVPers in the game. Let's face it, CoX PVP was always a token afterthought loosely bolted onto a largely PVE game - if you're really that devoted to PVP then it was probably never the game for you to begin with. Moreover, since it's the same developers making practically the same game with Champions, I really doubt that the people leaving one for the other will be doing so on the strength of the PVP system... which seems pretty likely to be a whole lot more of the same.

Originally posted by Greek_Matt

Originally posted by ArcAngel3

changes:

-Slow powers do not slow people anymore anywhere near the way the used to.  You can go right through them.

-Hold powers do not hold people anywhere near as effectively as they used to and they do much less damage.

-Assassinate powers do much less damage than they used to.  You used to be able to sneak up on people and really put them in danger of death if they didn't evade very quickly.

-Teleport powers are switched off if you launch an attack or are attacked.  You can't use them, at all.

-Teleport foe powers now reduce the damage you can do to the foe and or make them unable to be hit for a limited time.  You used to teleport foes and then attack them, doing regular damage.

-Superspeed powers are incredibly slowed as soon as you yourself launch an attack, or as soon as someone hits you with an attack.

-Superjump powers are incredibly reduced as soon as you launch an attack or are attacked by someone else.

-Healing powers when used are now diminished each and every time you use them.  This also affects those around you for area heals, ruining any self-healing strategy they may have been using.

-Buff powers are also incredibly reduced, leaving buffing characters wondering why they should bother entering the zone.

-Mez protection powers (protection powers for melee toons against ranged holds etc.) were eliminated completely.  Those with ranged holds used to have to stack them on you before they took effect.  This would give you a chance to get in close to them for a melee hit.  Now, with the changes, no mez protection whatsoever.  If you're a melee toon, and someone wants to hold you from range, they will--over and over and over again.

All of these powers that had reductions, suppressions, eliminations were filled with enhancement sets that were crafted over a period of months with rare loot, or purchased for a lot of money.  With the powers becoming useless or suppressed, these enhancement sets also became useless.

 

I've never really gotten into PVP in CoX though I've played (fairly casually) for years... got bored with the endless kiting, lockdown mezzing, one-shotting Stalkers, invincible Bubble-buffers and general inability to compete with someone decked out with a full load of rare Enhancements.

What's that you say? That's all gone now?! They've tried to make it more accessible to people other than the embittered `lifer' PVPers who are now rage-quitting? Pardon my lack of sympathy for your impassioned plea, but whether or not I decide to get into it more in the future (and I am tempted), I certainly won't be shedding a tear for the 'good ole days' of CoX PVP.

And as for the idea that now the CoX community will be flocking in droves to Champions because of these (now old) changes, I think you've seriously overestimated the number of 'hardcore' PVPers in the game. Let's face it, CoX PVP was always a token afterthought loosely bolted onto a largely PVE game - if you're really that devoted to PVP then it was probably never the game for you to begin with. Moreover, since it's the same developers making practically the same game with Champions, I really doubt that the people leaving one for the other will be doing so on the strength of the PVP system... which seems pretty likely to be a whole lot more of the same.

The "old" changes occured immediately prior to the most recent issue, the architect, which (as I've said) was originally scheduled as part of the same update.  The feedback I'm referring to is from May 2009.  FYI May 09 was 9 days ago.   Like another person who seems inclined to defend this MMO,  I hardly think you can accurately describe this as an "old" issue.  Like I said earlier (maybe you missed it?) this is currently a first page, hot issue in the developer forum on the official boards.  I imagine the devs (well some of them) would like the issue to be old, but it's not. 

As for the issues you raised about the problems in the previous PvP system, the community of players along with Lighthouse generated a helpful list to address these (and many other) real concerns.  The PvP system needed refining.

This PvP refinement could have been done openly, honestly, collarboratively and respectfully.  This was the process that Lighthouse began, and many players participated in.  There was in fact a great deal of optimism and good will looking ahead.

Sadly, instead of continuing down this path to a better game, it seems that someone high up the food chain at NCsoft decided to throw the current players (and Lighthouse) under the bus, and create a new PvP game from the ground up--for a different, hopefully larger audience.

What I'm saying is that when you decide to throw a lot of your core player population (and at least one of your staff) under the bus, it's going to have a negative impact on your game's community and reputation.

You have every right (freedom of speech etc.) to say that PvP players were expendable, and that no one will miss them, or the game they enjoyed; but I'd like to point out that you are in fact repeating the very problem I'm highlighting--devaluing a portion of your playing community and throwing them under the bus in the hope of appealing to someone else.  This kind of behaviour both divides and poisons player-communities; and this has an overall impact on the appeal of the game.

If you read the official forums or talk to people ingame about the PvP revamp, you'll see what I mean.  Dividing a game community (in a rather ugly manner) right before a competitor (Cryptic now fits that description) releases a new MMO in the same genre seems unwise to me.  You, and NCsoft, have every right to ignore these observations of course, but I stand behind them.  I guess we'll just have to see what happens to the CoH population when Champions comes out.  The proof, I suspect, will be in the proverbial pudding.

I thought I'd make a seperate response to address some of the gameplay issues that have been raised:

-Kiting: actually kiting still occurs; it just happens slower.  Why?  Because when you launch an attack, you suppress yourself.  You render yourself unable to move.  If you miss, which is often now (people have switched to characters with high defense in light of the new rules) you just gave your opponent a free ticket to leave you behind.  This is especially ironic when you throw a web grenade at someone to attempt to immobilize them.  You are guaranteed to slow yourself down, and have less of a chance of immobilizing your opponent.  Kiting in the old system had many counter moves.  Pick up slow powers, holds, immobilize, stuns or teleport foe.  I would regularly teleport people to myself if they tried to kite me.  Then I had slow and stun powers to try to keep them close.  Lots of options, lots of strategy.  Kiting was only a problem if you didn't know how to counter it, and there were many, many options.

-Assassin strike:  It would always take two hits for an assassin to kill you.  So, you had to be alert in the zone for someone trying to surprise you.  If you moved quick, they wouldn't get you, and they'd become visible for counter-attack.  With my tp foe power, I'd often pull a running stalker back to myself to make him pay for making an attempt on my life.  Very fun for me, and a fun contest for the stalker.  I'd also lay caltrops all over the place to make stalkers visible and slow them unexpectedly.  Again, a fun contest.  Now?  Stalkers hit you for very little damage; AND then root themselves in place due to travel suppression.  Stalkers are built for hit and run, but now their hit stinks, and they can't run.  What this means for them is hit (and do very little damage) and die.  Many, many of my stalker friends quit.  I was a Katana regen btw.

-Regen and healing:  Regen was reduced and so were all healing powers.  Some toons were only viable because they could heal themselves or regenerate.  Now they can't, at least not effectively.  This makes it hard to compete with high defense toons and high resistance toons.  It also made healers somewhat pointless in the zone.  Actually getting healed by someone would bork your regen, so healers were being told to stay away.  That's going to bring more people to the pvp zone?  Not likely.

-Slow powers:  These were all drastically reduced.  Also, everyone is slowed down by the travel suppression anyways, so what's the point really?  Even so, some people kept their slow powers, but found that people just jogged right through them without much difference.  If you were a melee toon that used slows to get close to ranged attackers, there goes your fun.  Remember if you use a melee attack, you now slow yourself or cancel your own travel power.

-Teleport: Ever seen a stone tank in a PvP zone without teleport?  It's a pitiful sight.  Why?  They can't move, anywhere, at all.  Stone tanks were practically eliminated from PvP by this revamp.

-Mez protection:  Gone.  Ever wonder what it's like to be hit by every single hold thrown your way as a Melee pvper?  It sucks, hard.  Every few seconds, you're held, with no protection.  Take a break free you might say.  Those were also disabled as mez protection.  They do not cancel holds any longer, merely shorten the duration.  So, be prepared to be held a lot, and repeatedly, if there are any players on with hold powers.

-Holds:  You'd think it would be a golden age for hold powers now that mez protection is gone right?  Wrong.  Your hold does virtually no damage now.  All it does is hold people for a few seconds.  Just long enough to paralyze them and piss them off.  You won't kill them though.  Then they'll chase you, until you hold them again for another few seconds.  Kiting has stopped?  No; it's just slower and much more irritating.

What's left to do?  As I say, if there are players in the zone, they'll tend to huddle in one corner of the map and button mash until someone either hits a power like hibernate, or until someone mercifully dies.  Probably it will be the stalker that just punched someone in the shoulder and then got ganked by his friends.

Am I really impassioned about this as the previous poster suggested?  Lol, no not really.  On a scale of 1-10, I'd say it bothers me at about a level 1--very low.  Maybe 2 if I think about some of the really fun times I had or how much work I put into some of my builds.  I stopped playing simply because it was no longer enjoyable.  I even thanked Miller for the good times, and wished him well.  I did tell him why I was leaving after 3 years, hoping that the feedback would be productive mind you.  I was polite about it too, why not be?  That doesn't stop me from thinking analytically about the situation, or from wondering how this may affect subscription levels when Champions comes out in the fall, which is what I'm doing.

I simply think this wasn't the best move on the part of NCsoft, and I wouldn't be surprised if it comes back to bite them.

What I am confused about was this need to do this massive change across the board? Why not put these changes into a confined area, such as an option in arenas and monitor the feedback? Why completely gut everything across the board on some dev wishful thinking, especially when your PVP vets are freaking out?

Somebody correct me please, I quit playing before the PVP changes, but didn't the dual build feature AND the PVP changes all occur at once? If my memory is right, why not put out the dual build under the old PVP system and see if just that additional feature would drive more people to PVP?

Originally posted by Kravis

What I am confused about was this need to do this massive change across the board? Why not put these changes into a confined area, such as an option in arenas and monitor the feedback? Why completely gut everything across the board on some dev wishful thinking, especially when your PVP vets are freaking out?

Somebody correct me please, I quit playing before the PVP changes, but didn't the dual build feature AND the PVP changes all occur at once? If my memory is right, why not put out the dual build under the old PVP system and see if just that additional feature would drive more people to PVP?
 

That's a very, very good point.  In fact the PvP reps talking with Lighthouse pleaded with the devs to do exactly what you suggest.  Castle's response was that refinement was not enough; he concluded (why I don't know) that the entire PvP system needed an immediate rebuild from the ground up.  I believe he used the word "drastic" change.

This ignored a number of suggestions to fix current bugs and issues with the original PvP system.  In fact, a very helpful list was provided to Lighthouse, and people had a ventrillo chat with him about what would help the PvP aspect of the game.  Players also wanted to see PvP improved, and we would have loved to see more people in the PvP zones.  Unfortunately, it seems Castle (or someone above him) decided to discard most of our observations, our input, and eventually our game.

Also, Castle didn't give himself nearly enough time to do a good job on a PvP revamp.  The whole system was redesigned and implemented within just a few short months; amidst countless pages of negative feedback.

Why did he cut players out of the process and rush out a new PvP system even more broken than the old one?  Honestly, it beats me.

Originally posted by lordvance

Even without taking PvP into consideration, it's a pretty solid bet that Champions is going to mop the floor with CoX. DCO will probably be better than champions for the PvP-inclined though.

Really? You think SOE can make a pvp game?  Hell, the game will be launched broken and unfinished. Most likely, the pvp content they may say they will have will not be in the game at launch.

I have more confidence in Cryptic.