i play a natural defender my only complaint is i have no real idea what my character does though the assualt rifle is very nice for ranged combat and flying when attacking is never a good idea cuz usually it does more damage then if you was grounded

I dont get the same heading as the OP.  

"Today, we continue a new series of articles where we ask a number of different developers from a number of different companies to answer a question about MMORPG design. Today, we ask Cryptic Studios' Bill Roper about balancing casting and ranged classes against melee classes.

MMO combat suffers from balancing casting vs. melee classes. What methods do you use to balance these two class types?

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Copy and paste is really good but not proof reading what you type can lead to mis information. 

Here is the complete message as of today at 10:52 am EDT.

Today, we continue a new series of articles where we ask a number of different developers from a number of different companies to answer a question about MMORPG design. Today, we ask Cryptic Studios' Bill Roper about balancing casting and ranged classes against melee classes.

MMO combat suffers from balancing casting vs. melee classes. What methods do you use to balance these two class types?

advertisement In City of Heroes we had to take great strides to make a melee class feel like they are not over-shadowed by ranged blasters. Being able to strike from range is an advantage that is difficult to put a numerical statistic to, but we increased the damage that a pure-melee character does over a ranged one. This is an area where we decided to err on the side of the player, as that damage increase is probably too strong, but in the end having it as strong as it is gives a real incentive for a player to try out a melee archetype.

Ranged characters also have the worst defenses in the game as well. This is a common MMO design tactic to encourage the playing of melee based classes. Our players use the term "Squishy" to describe any of the ranged classes that will go down in just a couple hits. Even our melee-DPS classes like Scrappers and Stalkers have respectable levels of damage mitigation, over the ranged-DPS classes like Blasters and Corruptors.

We also allow players to queue up their attacks and have them execute as soon as they are within range. This way you can activate a melee-range power and the character will "hold it" until their target gets within melee range, then immediately strike. This greatly helps out melee characters as they can automatically execute attacks if their foes are doing "drive-bys", or they are doing drive-bys themselves.

Of course, in City of Heroes we have the ability for every character to fly and fight at the same time. This led to some exploitation of enemies who didn't have ranged attacks simply getting farmed with no way to fight back. Nowadays all enemies are given some sort of ranged attack, and if it's a weak one it will carry with it a -FLY attribute which will remove the ability to fly and ground the offending character. Another thing we've done is avoiding the use of flying enemies. Flying enemies are pretty much something only a ranged character can combat, so a pure-melee character can only sit there and get hit. Where we do use flying enemies, we give them a strong "melee-centric" AI, which will have them swooping into melee range quickly, after taking only a couple pot-shots at range.

Now PvP can be really tricky. With nothing to counter a ranged character, especially one that can fly and stay forever out of melee range, then you end up with a one sided battle that is no fun for the melee guy. Due to this we incorporated two things. First, we've added the same -FLY that some enemies use to a lot of the player character melee powers, which will remove the flying attribute from the enemy it hits. This really can ruin a flying ranged character's day when they suddenly find themselves on the ground next to a guy with two laser-swords! Second, we have the concept of "movement suppression" where our super-fast travel powers lose their effectiveness for a few seconds after you make an attack. While this won't ground a flying character, a smart melee character can make them maneuver towards them to get the shot, and hit them with a -FLY attack before they can speed back out of range, and then go to town.
 

My question about this method has always been... Why are you trying to make people play any given class?

Why do Scrappers need Higher DPS, Higher Defense and ranged powers (Every scrapper I played had at least 1 ranged attack). While giving ranged classes Lower DPS, Lower Defense and a melee panic power.

As long as you are grouping it works out. The tank holds the agro and the ranged classes have an easier time of targeting and attacking then melee classes.

However in soloing this breaks down, now ranged classes have a much harder time of soloing due to lower damage output and much lower survivability. Granted if you stay away from missions and only farm outdoors flying will give you a major advantage. But most missions make flying into a very situational power.

Shrug. All in all I like CoX and they have done a better job of balancing then most games so I still give them a thumbs up. I just would not think they would brag about this as it is one of the weaknesses of their balancing system.

Originally posted by Slackerboy

My question about this method has always been... Why are you trying to make people play any given class?

Why do Scrappers need Higher DPS, Higher Defense and ranged powers (Every scrapper I played had at least 1 ranged attack). While giving ranged classes Lower DPS, Lower Defense and a melee panic power.

As long as you are grouping it works out. The tank holds the agro and the ranged classes have an easier time of targeting and attacking then melee classes.

However in soloing this breaks down, now ranged classes have a much harder time of soloing due to lower damage output and much lower survivability. Granted if you stay away from missions and only farm outdoors flying will give you a major advantage. But most missions make flying into a very situational power.

Shrug. All in all I like CoX and they have done a better job of balancing then most games so I still give them a thumbs up. I just would not think they would brag about this as it is one of the weaknesses of their balancing system.

you were probably fighting 41+ scrapers, outside of Spines and a single power on Claws all melee powers are pure melee/buff. But theirs lots of ranged powers in the "epic power pools"

Naw, I hate PvP. Talking purely about PvE.

And I admit my main scrappers were Spines and Claws.

Having said that, I could solo far easier with any of my scrappers (Ranged ability or no) then with any of my Blasters; much less a Defender, Controller or even Tank.

Ease of solo seemed to me to go something like.

1. Scrapper
2. Tank
3. Blaster
4. Defender
5. Controller

For soloing the game has a strong bias towards melee. I am not prepared to talk about PvP as I never cared for it, and they do a fairly good job of separating PvP balance from PvE balance.

I love COX. But I agree that some things just don't seem right.
I love to solo but the joy of soloing after 40 is gone. Most missions are not made for someone who is a controller or blaster. For the controller the damage is so low that it takes hours to finish if you don’t get taken down by a big boss. Most of the holds don’t work on an EB. You can’t fly out of the way because most missions keep you from doing that.
Blasters can hit far away but a big boss or EB will hold you and smash you down. That is if you can stay on your feet and get a shot in.
I love to solo with a Master Mind but wish I could do it with my controllers or healers.
Scrappers are great, please don’t get me wrong. I just wish the other builds were as easy to solo.

Originally posted by Slackerboy

Naw, I hate PvP. Talking purely about PvE.

And I admit my main scrappers were Spines and Claws.

Having said that, I could solo far easier with any of my scrappers (Ranged ability or no) then with any of my Blasters; much less a Defender, Controller or even Tank.

Ease of solo seemed to me to go something like.

1. Scrapper
2. Tank
3. Blaster
4. Defender
5. Controller

For soloing the game has a strong bias towards melee. I am not prepared to talk about PvP as I never cared for it, and they do a fairly good job of separating PvP balance from PvE balance.

That's interesting I'd place them like this:

1. Scrapper

2.Tanker

3. Controller (pets equal prizes)

4.Defender (not empathy of course)

5. Blaster

I never thought the damage resistance was the big issue but really found the status resistance, or lack of it, to be the real pain.

It's really, really boring to be held to death and yes I'm sure we could all carry nothing but breakfrees but that seems a bit of a con to get round the problem. At least with controllers you had some chance of lockdown, or slow and with defenders the debuffs could save your life but generally I agree with you. I don't think the ability for blasters to spam their two weakest attacks when held was enough but was certainly a step in the right direction.

One of the biggest benefits I found was getting some knockback resistance, kinetic impact four slotted, as sitting on your arse was generally a good way to get killed.

 On the whole I hate suppression.

P.S. One of the easiest solo builds I had was a storm/psi defender. Storm which can be such a pain to be teamed with has no qualms about unleashing it's full fury when soloing. TBH the secondary for this primary is truly secondary as it's just a menas to slowly grind down the foes who are having a seriously hard time hitting you even the mezzers once debuffed by hurricane had little chance of success.

Originally posted by Slackerboy

My question about this method has always been... Why are you trying to make people play any given class?

Why do Scrappers need Higher DPS, Higher Defense and ranged powers (Every scrapper I played had at least 1 ranged attack). While giving ranged classes Lower DPS, Lower Defense and a melee panic power.

As long as you are grouping it works out. The tank holds the agro and the ranged classes have an easier time of targeting and attacking then melee classes.

However in soloing this breaks down, now ranged classes have a much harder time of soloing due to lower damage output and much lower survivability. Granted if you stay away from missions and only farm outdoors flying will give you a major advantage. But most missions make flying into a very situational power.

Shrug. All in all I like CoX and they have done a better job of balancing then most games so I still give them a thumbs up. I just would not think they would brag about this as it is one of the weaknesses of their balancing system.

Ahem.

I play at least one character of every combination of powers.  This is because I'm retired with a lot of time on my hands.  And because I like to 'tinker' with different combinations and strategies and tactics.

I agree, there are some ranged classes that are simply not soloable to any great extent.  On the other hand, there are others that rock solo.  Gravity Control.  Assault Rifle.  Any kind of mastermind.  Sonic blasters.  Just to name a few.  In all cases, however, you have to pick and choose your tactics according to the weapons you have.  You won't be able to bull your way through a mission like a tank or power your way through like a scrapper.  You will have to use your abilities carefully and think out each group of mobs before assaulting them.  You have to have chosen your support powers carefully. You have to know when to run and what inspirations to carry.  In short, you have to think your way through.

Don't knock soloing with blasters until you master pulling.  Don't knock soloing with Defenders until you have mastered crowd control and healing.  For every person who has mastered an in game skill like pulling I see dozens who don't have a clue. 

Get some clues and work it out.  Don't just give up.  LOL.

Originally posted by FoxySpirit

I love COX. But I agree that some things just don't seem right.
I love to solo but the joy of soloing after 40 is gone. Most missions are not made for someone who is a controller or blaster. For the controller the damage is so low that it takes hours to finish if you don’t get taken down by a big boss. Most of the holds don’t work on an EB. You can’t fly out of the way because most missions keep you from doing that.
Blasters can hit far away but a big boss or EB will hold you and smash you down. That is if you can stay on your feet and get a shot in.
I love to solo with a Master Mind but wish I could do it with my controllers or healers.
Scrappers are great, please don’t get me wrong. I just wish the other builds were as easy to solo.

 

I agree about the big boss problem.  Talk about cheats or whatever, if I run into a mission with a boss I can't handle solo, I usually use my option to complete the mission without doing it.  I know it's cheap, but it gets me past the insurmountable obsticle.  That is assuming I can't find a team to go into the mission and solve it that way.  (My prefered strategy is to find a team.)
 

By the way, I've found missions like this I could not complete with all classes.  Not just squishies.