Jumpgate Evolution Forum » General Discussion » No Item and Ship loss?

Originally posted by siftified

Originally posted by Rydeson

Originally posted by Boosthungry

HAHAHA I just wanna say I jumped on these forums to see what the latest pvp talk about this game was and this was the first thread I found.  Wow the first page is almost all pvp discussion threads.  PVP oriented players being 1% of the market my ass.  I agree with all the flamers on this forum, this game is going to fail.

 

     It amazes me how people can read .. but still are illiterate..    NO ONE said PvP makes up 1% of the market..   I think you need to reread the POST again and this time.. READ all the words and put them together..    There are over 20 million people estimated playing MMO's worldwide..and how many are subscribers to PvP (item loss) games?   lmaooooooo   NEXT..

 

 

If that is your argument, then you sir, are a retard.

Out of that 20 million we can discount the 6 or 7 million WOW players that just don't know any better for starters. Then we have to ask how many games, offering item loss pvp systems are actually on the market? Well of course we have EvE, but it's easy to see why some people wouldn't want to play, with a steep learning curve etc. So that leaves a large population of gamers that have come from games such as UO, Shadowbane and Asheron's Call (games which have now unfortunately either been hit with the nerf stick, or have dissappeared) who would LOVE a new game with item loss, yet have nothing available to them, apart from EvE.

Arguing along the lines of "why would any gaming company want to appeal to minority crowd" is also fairly stupid. Considering this is what CCP has done, and they are arguably one of the best companies in the MMO business today.

As much as I like and admire CCP, the fact remains that they have about 300K subs. Why? Learning curve for one. The very harsh death penalty for another. There is also another fact that many people ignore. More than half of their player base never leaves high sec. Its been established that just about any game with a harsh death penalty niches itself.

There are simply a lot more of us CareBears than there are Hard Core PvP types. Given that the object of creating a MMO is to make a good return on the investors money, it just stands to reason that there would be more focus on PvE, with limited PvP. Also, keeping the death penalty down means that more(not less) people *may* take part.

Originally posted by Wraithone

     It amazes me how people can read .. but still are illiterate..    NO ONE said PvP makes up 1% of the market..   I think you need to reread the POST again and this time.. READ all the words and put them together..    There are over 20 million people estimated playing MMO's worldwide..and how many are subscribers to PvP (item loss) games?   lmaooooooo   NEXT..

 

 

If that is your argument, then you sir, are a retard.

Out of that 20 million we can discount the 6 or 7 million WOW players that just don't know any better for starters. Then we have to ask how many games, offering item loss pvp systems are actually on the market? Well of course we have EvE, but it's easy to see why some people wouldn't want to play, with a steep learning curve etc. So that leaves a large population of gamers that have come from games such as UO, Shadowbane and Asheron's Call (games which have now unfortunately either been hit with the nerf stick, or have dissappeared) who would LOVE a new game with item loss, yet have nothing available to them, apart from EvE.

Arguing along the lines of "why would any gaming company want to appeal to minority crowd" is also fairly stupid. Considering this is what CCP has done, and they are arguably one of the best companies in the MMO business today.

 

As much as I like and admire CCP, the fact remains that they have about 300K subs. Why? Learning curve for one. The very harsh death penalty for another. There is also another fact that many people ignore. More than half of their player base never leaves high sec. Its been established that just about any game with a harsh death penalty niches itself.

There are simply a lot more of us CareBears than there are Hard Core PvP types. Given that the object of creating a MMO is to make a good return on the investors money, it just stands to reason that there would be more focus on PvE, with limited PvP. Also, keeping the death penalty down means that more(not less) people *may* take part.

Sorry to but in but i feel the need to point out that the 300k subs eve has is roughly the same as still playing war and twice as many as lotro so doesn't really support that argument, by this you could surmise that there are twice as many warhammer fans as lord of the rings fans and that both pale in comparrison to warcraft  and the fact still remains that you can't point out that there are more one side than the other when there is very little choice in the style of gameplay at present

Originally posted by FreedomBlade

Game breaker if you can die and not lose your cargo and ship.

The whole excitement of Eve is the fact that if you die it actually hurts. The only draw back of Eve was the "shitty point and clicky" (c) combat.

This is a real shame as I had high hopes that JGE was going to be EVE with twitch based combat.

The main reason most people stay away from Eve is because of the huge risk involved in doing PvP. Some death penalty would be nice but in Eve it is waay to much, and more.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by FreedomBlade

Game breaker if you can die and not lose your cargo and ship.

The whole excitement of Eve is the fact that if you die it actually hurts. The only draw back of Eve was the "shitty point and clicky" (c) combat.

This is a real shame as I had high hopes that JGE was going to be EVE with twitch based combat.

 

The main reason most people stay away from Eve is because of the huge risk involved in doing PvP. Some death penalty would be nice but in Eve it is waay to much, and more.

It drives the market. No item loss -> no demand -> no real market -> no real sci-fi game.

Originally posted by schawo

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by FreedomBlade

Game breaker if you can die and not lose your cargo and ship.

The whole excitement of Eve is the fact that if you die it actually hurts. The only draw back of Eve was the "shitty point and clicky" (c) combat.

This is a real shame as I had high hopes that JGE was going to be EVE with twitch based combat.

 

The main reason most people stay away from Eve is because of the huge risk involved in doing PvP. Some death penalty would be nice but in Eve it is waay to much, and more.

 

It drives the market. No item loss -> no demand -> no real market -> no real sci-fi game.

Then how do you explain WoW? The death penalty there is minor. Yet it has 11.5 million players and still growing, coming up on 5 years. There very much IS a market for limited death penalty games. It just depends on what else the game has. Eve has niched itself because of the harsh death penalty, as well as the learning *wall* involved in starting up.  But that doesn't seem to bother CCP, so they just keep on going.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by schawo

... no real sci-fi game.

 

Then how do you explain WoW? The death penalty there is minor. Yet it has 11.5 million players and still growing, coming up on 5 years. There very much IS a market for limited death penalty games. It just depends on what else the game has. Eve has niched itself because of the harsh death penalty, as well as the learning *wall* involved in starting up.  But that doesn't seem to bother CCP, so they just keep on going.

wow != sci-fi

I know plenty of games without death penalty going down the drain very fast. I don't know any games with death penalty collapsing in 6 months. "I Feel a Strange Disturbance in The Force."

OK I don't want to say, that death penalty makes a game successful, but I want to say, that no-death-penalty doesn't make an mmo successful by default.

Originally posted by schawo

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by schawo

... no real sci-fi game.

 

Then how do you explain WoW? The death penalty there is minor. Yet it has 11.5 million players and still growing, coming up on 5 years. There very much IS a market for limited death penalty games. It just depends on what else the game has. Eve has niched itself because of the harsh death penalty, as well as the learning *wall* involved in starting up.  But that doesn't seem to bother CCP, so they just keep on going.

wow != sci-fi

I know plenty of games without death penalty going down the drain very fast. I don't know any games with death penalty collapsing in 6 months. "I Feel a Strange Disturbance in The Force."

OK I don't want to say, that death penalty makes a game successful, but I want to say, that no-death-penalty doesn't make an mmo successful by default.

 

Yeah Darkfall is a sterling success and landmark title.

“I don't know any games with death penalty collapsing in 6 months.” That is because the majority of games released have limited loss on death, and so the number of these games failing will naturally be higher.

There are far more mmo gamers who prefer limited death penalty than not, or had you not noticed the overwhelming number of limited loss mmo’s on the shelves; market forces prevail and majority rules once again. Even eve online which has the harshest of death penalties has a greater number of accounts in high sec than low (by ccp’s own admission), and is the reason CCP are trying different approaches to get players into low/null sec.

I am not arguing for one corner or the other, simply stating a fact that all developers know only too well, “harsh death penalties do not attract as many paying customers”.
 

This is a deal-breaker for me as well. As an adult, I like to play games that are as close to reality in as many ways as possible. This means real consequences during my game-play. This is why I only play EVE Online and Darkfall. Some of you may make fun of CCP's 300K subscribers but as far as CCP is concerned, things could never be better as they have never had this many subscribers before. The more gamers get fed up with being handheld, the more will check out games like EVE Online. Players who prefer these games may be in the minority but that should not invalidate our taste and preference in game design. Not every game has to have a bazillion subscribers. Not every developer wants to make a game for the masses.

Originally posted by Borkotron

This is a deal-breaker for me as well. As an adult, I like to play games that are as close to reality in as many ways as possible. This means real consequences during my game-play. This is why I only play EVE Online and Darkfall. Some of you may make fun of CCP's 300K subscribers but as far as CCP is concerned, things could never be better as they have never had this many subscribers before. The more gamers get fed up with being handheld, the more will check out games like EVE Online. Players who prefer these games may be in the minority but that should not invalidate our taste and preference in game design. Not every game has to have a bazillion subscribers. Not every developer wants to make a game for the masses.

As much as I like to tease the CCP Dev's(Vampires in SPAAAAACE comes to mind ^^) , they are a FIRST rate company running a damn fine game.  That having been said, they will never be mass market. But they don't need to be.  But like it or not, the market trend is not in the direction of more games like Eve or <shudder> Darkfall.  Its in the direction of games that are trying to hit all of the elements that make WoW mass market(no one has managed so far).

The LAST thing I want in my entertainment time is "reality". I get more than enough of that as it is.  Thats one of the reasons I like the graphics style of WoW, Cabal and 2moons.  But I do like some FPS games. Thats why I'm looking forward to Dust 514.

Damn, no death penalty at all? I was kinda waiting for this game but after playing for Champions Online and realizing how dumb the game becomes when there's literally no drawbacks in dying... To me this a huge game breaker. It makes everything feel so arcade. And no, respawning back into a space station isn't "death penalty"...

JGE looks like it could be decent space pew pew, but right now I'll just probably skip it and wait for Black Prophecy.

Edit: Seems like a lot of folks here belong into that "1%".

Originally posted by Rydeson

     In case you haven't been told or know..  People wanting PvP with consequences are probably 1% of the market.. Why on hell's Earth would you want to design a game that targets that small percentage?  If JGE is anything like Eve without the PvP penalty, I wouldn't be surprised to see 33%, if not more, of Eve's server population drop like a prom dress..  That is one drawing point games like WoW have in concerns of PvP..  ONLY rewards are possible for PvP, with NO penalty..

     If I spent the better 1/2 of the hour mining raw materials ONLY to lose it to a pair of snot nosed teenages that like to gang up and pirate weaker ships.. NO thanks..

Trust me Jumpgate Evolution is no threat to Eve online, go watch the videos the released on the game this year, they didn't get a good response from it making the developers panic and pull the Sept release and try change course a bit as people somehow didn't take to a boss mob in a asteroid caves as a form a dungeon raid in a space.

JG Evolution will be a wow kiddie feast since it's very much aimed at them. What Eve online has to watch out for is the Black Prophecy space MMO in development, that will be give Eve online and JumpGate a run for it's money, Black Prophecy makes JumpGate look laughable, JumpGate Evolution already set to be a mediocre MMO, just wait and see, it's no wing commander  MMO as a lot think it is.

www.youtube.com/watch   Vid of Black Prophecy MMO for those who don't know about it.

I for one am glad that there's no item loss on death. I want a combat game where people aren't always trying to run away from combat but would rather engage in combat; see PotBS as an example.

Death should sting but it shouldn't want people to quit the game or feel that they have to start over again.

I don't care much for PvP or how people lose their stuff but I do care for resource harvesting, crafting/production and a dynamic and extensive market where anything has a potential value for a fellow player. I am done crafting junk which have no other purpose then selling to NPCs for scraps. I do not see how an interesting market can be achieved without some kind of item loss, and it does not seem like JGE will rise above the crappy "auctionhouse market" that is oh so common in MMOs these days.

I dislike the lack of risk involved with PvP. What made EVE great was the PvP and possibility of losing everything.

Originally posted by xanphia

I dislike the lack of risk involved with PvP. What made EVE great was the PvP and possibility of losing everything.

That same danger is what is keeping Eve niche, and also keeps around 2/3's of the player base in high sec.  The western market for harsh death penalty games is simply too small to support much else. 

There are people who will play both Jumpgate and EVE Online.  Myself being one of them.  I think the two games are honestly mutually exclusive to one another.

However, I DO believe that the "hardcore" aspect of EVE Gameplay would not translate well for the core jumpgate servers.  It'd be like a WoW server where you lost your epics whenever you were slain.  Too risky for MOST players out there.  Ever wonder WHY in EVE Online most players stay in empire???  There's a reason, one that became brutally oubvious ever since EVE absorbed what they could from "Earth & Beyond".  There just aren't enough players that want to loose everything they work for at every turn.

Now, if they had a few "Hardcore" jumpgate servers where you COULD lose your ship and items.... *nudges NetDevil*

I agree the game would be better with a small loss on death both in PvP, and in regular play. The "mob" that killed you would pick up your scrap whatever and would be available on its corpse in the event you actually come back and re engage. Death without penalty leads to regressive game play and griefing. Too much loss on death in most games also leads to regressive game play and griefing. I would hope that the dev think once again on the idea and come up with a little something.

The game needs a death penalty. Cargo, items or money. Something. So many people have spoken up about this, that it would be insanity of the devs not to at least listen to some of the feedback.

Hopefully people will be able to sway them once beta comes around.

Originally posted by Zzulu

The game needs a death penalty. Cargo, items or money. Something. So many people have spoken up about this, that it would be insanity of the devs not to at least listen to some of the feedback.

Hopefully people will be able to sway them once beta comes around.

The harsher the death penalty, the fewer people will take part in PvP.  In fact, in the modern day, the less people who will play the game at all.  Now the PK crowd may consider that a "good thing", but the Dev's have to look at where the money is.  There are a lot more of us CareBears than there are PvP types in the western market. Which is also one of the reasons that Asian games tend to niche themselves in the west.

I'm against huge death penalties for any PvP game. If I want to PvP all night I want to PvP all night. I don't want to do a couple of fights and then be forced to PvE to recover from losses. However there's not having huge death penalties, and then there's the ridiculous insta-respawn right next to where you died a la WoW. Something to discourage you from dying *should* be in, it just shouldn't be severe, IMO. Perhaps respawning at a safe station so you're not back in the action immediately along with a minor repair bill.

Originally posted by Wraithone

Originally posted by Zzulu

The game needs a death penalty. Cargo, items or money. Something. So many people have spoken up about this, that it would be insanity of the devs not to at least listen to some of the feedback.

Hopefully people will be able to sway them once beta comes around.

 

The harsher the death penalty, the fewer people will take part in PvP.  In fact, in the modern day, the less people who will play the game at all.  Now the PK crowd may consider that a "good thing", but the Dev's have to look at where the money is.  There are a lot more of us CareBears than there are PvP types in the western market. Which is also one of the reasons that Asian games tend to niche themselves in the west.

What data are you possibly basing this on? The only even slightly well designed PvP MMO with penalties upon death is EVE, which is a major success on the market today, despite being such a niched game  that it does not even have regular character avatars.

All other recent western PvP MMO's with penalties (I.E ONLY SHADOWBANE) have been unfinished crapfests, and they have failed. Just like the PVE MMO's who launched unfinished as well. So I'm not sure how you can draw conclusions of anything, because there is no evidence of anything.

There is no fundamental data out there that says that people prefer "carebear" style PvP or whatever you want to call it. They prefer polished, well crafted games. I do not think it matters much to most people if, when they die, they lost a digital item or some gold if it is a decently implemented part of the gaming experience. I have never even met anyone who cared about such things in EVE, for example. Even people who hate EVE usually never lists the PvP penalties as a flaw.

Dont mind if they will have or not have death penalties as long its more fun than eve.

I dont want it to be a eve clone,

The only thing I want JGE to clone from EVE is the economy system. But for that to happen, the game needs to have some sort of loss upon player death. Some sort of resource which is spent, so that demand can arise for production.  It's what sets everything in motion.