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Jumpgate Evolution Interviews: General PvP Interview
Recently, MMORPG.com had the opportunity to talk to Hermann Peterscheck of NetDevil about PvP in Jumpgate Evolution and how it will be implemented.
By Jon Wood on July 17, 2009
| MMORPG.com: | How will PvP factor into the game's lore? |
| Hermann Peterscheck: | It depends. There is fiction behind the various battlespace scenarios, so that is one of the factors. In terms of open space there are less specific ties since we can't really predict what is going to happen. More likely, we will respond to PVP events and feed them into future fiction as opposed to trying to force it down one path or another. The other direction is how the lore itself influences PVP. Here we consider that the three major nations are in a conflict with one another. It's not total open war, but they are definitely competitive. The personality of the nations is reflected in things like ship design and general attitude. For example the Octavians are much more regimented and militaristic whereas Solrain is more motivated by profit and gain. What we want to do is have the players feel that they identify with their nation and it's goals. |
| MMORPG.com: | What kinds of PvP will make an appearance in Jumpgate Evolution? One on one, 100 vs 100, etc.? |
| Hermann Peterscheck: | We have determined that large numbers of ships is certainly more fun than one on one battles in big, open space - though that is possible. Once you support huge scale battles, smaller battles are simply an issue of player preference. I suspect we will have many different sizes to the battles, but we are assuming that massive space combat will be the most compelling. Here again, each nation's personality is represented. In the large scale battlespace, for example, each group has their own distinct capital ship which they need to protect, while attempting to destroy the other group's ship. The look and feel of these ships is very distinctive and helps players identify with their nation. |
| MMORPG.com: | Will there be an area that allows for open free for all PvP? |
| Hermann Peterscheck: | There are so-called "unregulated" areas in space. Here, you are basically always flagged as PVP and can freely attack, and be attacked by, anyone. Also, battlespace has various rules, but it is certainly open PVP in the traditional sense. |
| MMORPG.com: | What loot reward systems are in place for PvP in JGE? |
| Hermann Peterscheck: | Loot rewards will be sold to you by special vendors which require you to have a certain amount of renown to gain access to. Additionally you get XP and credits for kills, contribution to kills and other objectives which you can complete as part of PVP. |
| MMORPG.com: | What experience reward systems are in place for PvP in JGE? |
| Hermann Peterscheck: | Currently you get XP, Credits and Renown for all PVP kills. Depending on how well you do and your contribution determines how much of each you get. In the case of battlespace, winning the round will give bonuses. In the case of open world PVP, the winning nation gains control over that part of space which has consequences and benefits we have not specified. |
| |
| MMORPG.com: | Will there be consequences to losing a PvP battle? |
| Hermann Peterscheck: | It depends. In the case of open space you lose the outpost and control over that part of space. In a battlespace battle, you will not get the rewards that the winner gets (renown, bonus xp and so on). We don't want to take things away since that means that fewer people will PVP. We also track individual and nation wide statistics. This means that as your nation rises and falls in the ranks you can feel that you are contributing to a greater cause and increasing the influence of your nation and it's values. |
| MMORPG.com: | What systems are in place to prevent "ganking" behaviours? |
| Hermann Peterscheck: | It depends what you mean by ganking. It will be possible to play Jumpgate without getting yourself into a situation where you can be ganked. Once you enter an open PVP area you are sort of electing to put yourself in danger of being killed without expecting it. I think the important thing is that players are able to make choices. Ganking is only really terrible if there's nothing you could have done about it and so that's the real issue to address. |
| MMORPG.com: | In February of 2008, you said in an MMORPG.com dev journal that you were considering different PvP rules for different shards. Is this still a possibility? |
| Hermann Peterscheck: | It's always a possibility. That's based on what other MMOs have done in the past and has been successful for them. There's many ways of dealing with the differences between PVP and PVE and we are open to exploring whatever makes the most sense for our game. Of course everything really depends on the results from ongoing testing where we expect to find out what players wants. |
;)
....Sounds like Warhammer in space
I read the entire interview and dammit i dont want to agree with your statement but......... it sort of sounds that way. Im sure it isnt and even it it was, it would still be infinitely cooler because you're in space. I love the idea of being able to defend your capitol ship. The capitol ship would need to have some major shielding or extremely effective, auto-targetting cannon/lasers; Or else everyone will just zerg it and the battle will be over in seconds. Killing the fighters protecting it should be a higher priority and respawns should proc a death penalty/debuff on players. If you want to fly and atack recklessly, your penalty will be deal less damage and less health. This way players will not only think twice about zerg fests but also care about their own well being. Flying together in group formations to maximize damage and gain a sense of safety in numbers. Okay this is too long and im done now ^^
What systems are in place to prevent "ganking" behaviours?
Hermann Peterscheck: It depends what you mean by ganking. It will be possible to play Jumpgate without getting yourself into a situation where you can be ganked. Once you enter an open PVP area you are sort of electing to put yourself in danger of being killed without expecting it. I think the important thing is that players are able to make choices. Ganking is only really terrible if there's nothing you could have done about it and so that's the real issue to address.
Translation:
We have no solution for ganking. It ruined the original Jumpgate, and it'll probably ruin this game as well. It will be possible to hide in the safe areas of the game forever, but we don't put anything of value there so you can't do anything there. We've put all the carrots into open PvP space in the vain hope people who don't like PvP will go there and become fodder for the gankers a few times before they cancel their accounts. Ganking is only really terrible if its all people do in a game, which, it will be here as well, see Eve for a great example.
Melodramatic, but I laughed.
And War is space sounds about right.
I so want to like this game, but this Hermann fellow seems to not have a clue. He needs to grow a pair, say what's in the f'ning game and release it. He's too afraid of failure.
Translation:
We have no solution for ganking <snip>
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Hehe, that's kinda what I got out of it as well. I sure hope they don't place everything worthwhile in PVP areas. I'm not a huge PvP fan, not so much the PvP itself but the 12yo smack talkers get old, fast. If the only way to be PvE competitive is to farm in PvP areas, then I won't be staying long.
I sure hope that won't be the case. I've been waiting for a good Elite/Privateer/Freelancer type game for ages now.
I know nothing will ever replace my first few hours playing Elite on my C64 but I hope this will come close, like Privateer came close.
First of all - you have no idea what 'carrots' will be where.
Second of all - why are all of you people so utterly averse to PvP?
Don't condemn a game until it's actually released and playtested by the public.
Confirming that open PVP areas ruin MMO's. Just look at EVE Online... owait...
Seriously... blanket statements about how PVP is a bad thing (tm) are assinine. It totally depends on how the risk vs. reward is balanced out. 0.0 in EVE is as lawless as it gets. However, there are PLENTY of people out there. Why? Because the risk vs. rewards make it worthwhile to be out there.
Likewise there are people in lowsec, which is near lawless as well.
TBH I will say that the PVP system in the original JG was broken. Mainly because PVP combat in the original jumpgate basically wound up just being a bunch of jousting because the engine didn't lend itself to dogfighting well. Hopefully the new version will because, frankly, jousting matches are about as much fun as watching paint peel.
How PVP will be in the new version is anyone's guess. The 'interviews' they give so far have had both poorly asked questions and evasive answers.
First of all because WAY too many Dev's think its "creative" and "clever" and oh so "subtle" to use that approach. By placing all(or most) of the carrots in GankSpace, they can claim that they aren't "forcing" anyone to go there. Which is true, in a fashion. But if there is rather little else to do, it defeats the purpose. Eve has a rather good balance in that regard. As long as I don't join a player corporation, and stay in High Sec I'm unlikely to be attacked. I run L4 missions, mine a bit and mind my own business. Loons like the Goonies and their "Jihad" are a glaring example of why PvP tends to degenerate in to ganking. Stunts like that also explain the evolution of Concord.
Second of all, because again, I've seen WAY too many games turn into total gankfests. PvP tends to be the lazy approach to content. Done right(VERY rare) it can be entertaining. Done wrong, its endlessly annoying, and eventually destroys ones business model. Why do I object to gankfests you ask? Because I've been on the sticky end of the pointy stick WAY too often to enjoy it. Its NOT fun, or enjoyable to get ganked by much higher level players, with much higher level gear and much more experience. But most gankers travel in packs... So you are not only outgeared, out leveled and out experienced, you are badly out numbered. No matter how "creative" the Dev's get, open PvP tends to devolve into that.
I'm not condemning it out of hand. I plan to try it. But if they don't have a PvE rule set available, I doubt I'll stay for any length of time.
This might all be applicable to JGE if the twitch combat model didn't make ganking so much harder, even with superior numbers.
So many people are making comments about this game, forgetting that with a twitch combat system, the notion of "ganking" gets turned on its head. Not to mention that many people seem to be making assumptions and claims that compeltely fly in the face of what is confirmed about JGE. Seriously people, do your fucking homework before you bash something you don't understand. But then again, this is MMORPG.com, and I suppose QQing and complaining are about all this site is good for.
If your tired of getting ganked, learn to utilize the multiplayer part of the phrase MMORPG.
From most of the interviews that I've read they're in favor of having light penalties for losing in combat, so it sounds like there will be very little risk in this game. They seem to be sacrificing the risk in order to encourage players to get out there and play the game.
As far as the dogfighting goes - what can they do in twitch based combat flight sim to prevent "jousting"? It's the nature of that beast. I guess they could slow the fighters down and introduce inhibitors, but is that fun?
I have been following JGE for a while. What started out as a newer version of Jumpgate Classic is quickly turning into WAR in space, despite the many protests from the long time followers that it isn't what they are looking for. While I was extremely excited about this game before, I'm only remotely interested now. NetDevil is completely out of touch.
This might all be applicable to JGE if the twitch combat model didn't make ganking so much harder, even with superior numbers.
So many people are making comments about this game, forgetting that with a twitch combat system, the notion of "ganking" gets turned on its head. Not to mention that many people seem to be making assumptions and claims that compeltely fly in the face of what is confirmed about JGE. Seriously people, do your fucking homework before you bash something you don't understand. But then again, this is MMORPG.com, and I suppose QQing and complaining are about all this site is good for.
If your tired of getting ganked, learn to utilize the multiplayer part of the phrase MMORPG.
Laughter... Sure, I always log in at the same time as all the other members of my guild/clan...And then we all roam around in packs to do everything... Next time, do some thinking before you shoot off your foul mouth. Not to mention, try some reading comprehension. What did I say in my last paragraph? I'll give it a try. But if its using the same old tired open PvP model, I doubt I'll stay very long.
LOL - When you have PvP areas you will have ganking in those areas. About the only way to have non-ganking PvP is to have a Guildwars like setup - an arena where everyone is the highest level possible. Some like that, but mostly everyone agrees that it sucks. So back to open PvP areas, where you will have ganking. Just my opinion.
A twitch combat model by definition makes it a different PVP mechanic. There are no heals, buffs, or anything else except your ship, equipment, and skill at piloting. And if you're outmatched, you can run away to regulated space.
If you don't have a group, don't go into areas where you need a group to survive. And if you don't have guild members online, then form a group of your own and put a stop to the ganking. That applies to just about every MMO with PVP areas.
I actually don't believe in the term "ganking". To me, it's a term invented by the uncreative carebear crowd who are better off playing a single player game, and not an MMO where other people will influence their gameplay. People just need to accept that a fight in world PVP is never going to be "fair".
I actually don't believe in the term "ganking". To me, it's a term invented by the uncreative carebear crowd who are better off playing a single player game, and not an MMO where other people will influence their gameplay. People just need to accept that a fight in world PVP is never going to be "fair".
Ok, then how about "in an open PvP area more experienced players will always be out there ready to administer a sound ass kicking to the newer player who ventures within their reach"?
Which is why less experienced players should take the time to build up their skills, friends (join a guild), and be creative in how they handle such a challenge.
I think it's all about how you look at it. I see unregulated space, open PVP, whatever you call it or whatever games call it, as a challenge. I think too many people let themselves be defeated by a challenge or a little work, so they give up.
Which is why less experienced players should take the time to build up their skills, friends (join a guild), and be creative in how they handle such a challenge.
I think it's all about how you look at it. I see unregulated space, open PVP, whatever you call it or whatever games call it, as a challenge. I think too many people let themselves be defeated by a challenge or a little work, so they give up.
BTW, I wasn't complaining - just explaining that if there is an open PvP area in a game and you go into it as a newer player, by yourself and end up dying you have nobody to blame but yourself. Just like if you jump into a shark tank and get bit or killed the fault is not on the sharks but on you for jumping in.
A twitch combat model by definition makes it a different PVP mechanic. There are no heals, buffs, or anything else except your ship, equipment, and skill at piloting. And if you're outmatched, you can run away to regulated space.
If you don't have a group, don't go into areas where you need a group to survive. And if you don't have guild members online, then form a group of your own and put a stop to the ganking. That applies to just about every MMO with PVP areas.
MMO and twitch combat don't belong in the same sentence. ^^ If I want PvP I'll play a game thats designed for it, like UT3 or Quake4(Section8 looks like fun as well). Those are much more skill related games, than MMO's tend to be, no matter what Dev's and other such may claim.
I actually don't believe in the term "ganking". To me, it's a term invented by the uncreative carebear crowd who are better off playing a single player game, and not an MMO where other people will influence their gameplay. People just need to accept that a fight in world PVP is never going to be "fair".
You may have noticed my avatar... I do not consider CareBear to be an insult. ^^ Eve has a saying something like that. "If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, you are doing something seriously wrong". ^^ Keep in mind that there tend to be a lot more CareBears out and about, than PvP types. This has been demonstrated countless times, in many different games. Thus there is more money to be made by including CareBear rule sets than not. Sooner or later, Dev's tend to come around to that realization.
For all those worrying about the PvP aspects of the game, do not.
This game will have very soft loss mechanics, the only thing you lose when and if you die is a bit of your credits for repairs, You won;t lose your ship or it equipment or even the cargo you have.
It is made so that people have fun fighting and dogfighting in space with their ships without being at the mercy of other players making them stay in a station for hours or untill they log out.
Which means, if you really want to get a juicy carrot and that carrot happens to be in an unregulated sector, you have many options available to you, for instance if you really dread the prospect of having to fight another player for it, you can wait till some other playyer sells it in the market, alternativelly you can go in alone and try to get it, alternativelly you can go in with friends and get it...it is an MMO after all, there is no sense constantly playing alone init, and you have a whole Faction in your side to help you get it, if that still doe snot seem something that you are willing to do to have fun, then why play the bloody game in the first place, save yourself the subscription and play X3 and get all the carrots you wish whenever you wish and how you wish by yourself.
JGE is set up to be a fun MMO Space game, with a nice Lore/Story and RvR element to it, it will also have consensual PvP which means that you will not have to PvP if you really do not want to PvP, on the other hand, fighting in PvP will not be different than Fighting in PvE and if you can fly and fight in PVE you can do it in PvP too in such a game (there is no Rolls in combat it is twitch based), there is really no difference , except that it is not an AI flying the enemy and it is another Human being, the rest, is suposed to be about FUN.
I remember your name from the PotBS beta boards and game... heh, another failed PvP game. Aside from port battles, I never had a fair fight in PotBS (sounds like Eve)..... The one time I was in a 6 on 6, both sides decided to flee rather than risk their ships.... LOL.
Problem is: if I want to mine in unreg, I am going to be flying a giant space cow for a ship. Any ganker will take much joy in blasting me back to station over and over again. Sure, I could wait him out, but then someone comes to replace him. Sure, I could hire a dozen people to clear my path... but then I can't afford to pay them..... Sounds like PotBS again.... "Bring friends!" was the battle cry. And it failed.
WAR in space
Minigames , no risk , and un noticable rewards.
Not what people expected JGE to be....
Hence most old time followers lost interest. Who are Netdevil aiming this game for ?
Auto Assault fiasco 2.0
Yes it is. And you really need to start speaking for yourself. you are a single persion, you are not "We", "many" "fans" "followers".
Jumpgate has been and allways was going to be:
+
+
+
+
Thousands of other players
=
CareBears of course...<grin> There are a lot more of us, than there are PvP types. Perhaps they learned their lesson from AA?
No, Wrong
the games you have listed are all clones of (and without the pictures) Elite
Not really. They have much more going on, not that it isn't a precursor.
Yes it is. And you really need to start speaking for yourself. you are a single persion, you are not "We", "many" "fans" "followers".
Mate you should really visit JGE forums before you speak
Mate you should really visit JGE forums before you speak
Been there, done that. The howls of disappointed gankers is such SWEET music to my furry ears. ^^ Perhaps the game will be around for awhile, if they direct it towards a demographic that has more numbers?
Mate you should really visit JGE forums before you speak
Yes, the same 5 - 10 people are upset and posting.
I remember your name from the PotBS beta boards and game... heh, another failed PvP game. Aside from port battles, I never had a fair fight in PotBS (sounds like Eve)..... The one time I was in a 6 on 6, both sides decided to flee rather than risk their ships.... LOL.
Problem is: if I want to mine in unreg, I am going to be flying a giant space cow for a ship. Any ganker will take much joy in blasting me back to station over and over again. Sure, I could wait him out, but then someone comes to replace him. Sure, I could hire a dozen people to clear my path... but then I can't afford to pay them..... Sounds like PotBS again.... "Bring friends!" was the battle cry. And it failed.
I remember you as well Eric. :)
POTBS was a different story my friend, I had in Beta expressed my concerns for it, I continued to do so several months after launch as well.
POTBS had issues due to its Loss mechanics and the fact that in its RvR mechanics PvP was affected by the Economical Well being of the Individual, and vice versa, PvP could affect the economical well being of the Individual and of cource the Faction.
JGE, seems like it has the right combination of the ingredients however at this time, there is No material Loss mechanics.
You do not lose your ship like in POTBS, you do not lose your Fittings like in POTBS either, you will not have to Grind PVE in order to be able to PvP either. Which is the whole irony with PvP games that boast a player driven economy and Combine that with Loss mechanics, you end up PVEing more than PvPing.
JGE just wants to bring the fun of Large Scale battles to the masses, not unlike the Missions of X-Wing vs Tie Fighter, or the Battles of Starlancer (the predecessor of Freelancer), where you were a Military Pilot this time around and flew missions in huge battles amongst Fleets of Capital Ships, fending off Torpidoe Bombers and chassing down Torpidoes as well as protecting your own Bombers with their Torpidoe Runs against the enemy capital ships.
Yet it does not end there, it does boast a Production System too, Mining Crafting Recycling Hauling, economical activities, it does offer PVE experience as well.
In short, POTBS did not have an action based focus, it had an economical focus, JGE is focussed on Combat action while on the side it has an economy and other activities. It is geared for Fun, not frustration.
Mate you should really visit JGE forums before you speak
Yes, the same 5 - 10 people are upset and posting.
This game is the game that should have been created a long time ago. The mechanics for a twitch-skill-based mmo are really what matters here. The other features allow you to enjoy the twitch-skill-based action without having to farm for credits to feed your combat addiction.
I'm among the thousands who see no problems with JGE and like you said there are a few ex-Eve pilots and ex-JGC pilots that seem to be expecting something more like Eve or expect to have an updated JGC game but JGE is a different game and it works different. You can not force the square peg in the round whole without breaking it sometimes. From what I have seen JGE will more than satisfy the sci-fi mmo lover and we don't even have to put up with SOE :) .
To see how ffa pvp works log on to age of conan fury server, then go down into the underhalls as a lvl 10ish to do quests only to be killed by some lvl 20+ or even better a group of lvl 20's, then tell me again about how i should not go to a place i risk getting killed when it is a part of the leveling grind to get out of tortage.
Many people have stated that ganking on this server is the worst they have ever seen, and well it seems bad even makes wow world pvp seem okey.
The game is going to live or die on how well it does PvP. I do like the Idea of getting everyone to take part for "free" and get a reward from success. More carrot, less stick, good approach.
I've read most of the thread and, let's be honest, we've all seen this discussion before haven't we?
In any competitive environment, people will always strive to give themselves the best advantage possible. PvE-based players will want safe areas for protection and PvP-based players will want better ships, skills, and numbers. In a strange sense, even the vast majority of PvP players are 'carebears' since they prefer to fight an advantage on their side.
In an open-PvP environment where ganking is possible, it will happen. All the time. Take a look at EVE or, more recently, Darkfall. There are plenty of other PvP games and they all show the same thing: Where PvP is unregulated, it will never be 'fair'. If gankers lose little or nothing by ganking/griefing then, believe me, they will do it 24/7, even if they gain nothing from it other than the enjoyment of the gank.
The issue of balanced PvP is a major issue that plagues every PvP MMO to date and no developer has got it right yet. Nobody. I predict that jumpgate Evolution will be a zerged up gankfest in the unregulated areas. It will be 'unfair' and everyone will scream bloody murder until Netdevil find a way to 'Trammel' the game (or should I say 'Ettenmoors'?), or let the (majority) non-hardcore playerbase fall away until the game is 'left to the dogs'. Again, take EVE and Darkfall as examples. (Ever wonder why EVE periodically puts out new marketing campaigns? It's to replace the large numbers that left the game after getting griefed back to 'hi-sec' space.)
There are many ways to limit factors in PvP, but these usually ruin the game. Warcraft-style capped arenas remove the 'random factor' of PvP encounters altogether. We could even say 'make all players the same skill level' or 'give them the same equipment' in an open PvP area, but then that totally removes the point of character build and economic development. Any and every effort to balance open PvP in an MMO has failed.
Overall, I think there is no way to make open PvP balanced and 'fair'. The massive groups of hardcore, long-term players will always dominate the PvP areas. The terms 'Human Nature' and 'Law of the Jungle' spring to mind here.
Jumpgate Evolution will suffer the same fate as every other MMO that has tried to implement a measure of open PvP. The question is, will Netdevil nerf PvP or let it fall to the dogs?
I like others use to be in the crowd of PvP haters. Totally worried about being ganked, not ever seeing anything positive about pvp content and railing against those who like pvp. Funny thing is most of the posts in this thread of how PvP is epic fail, or not needed was the same feelings I had long ago. Then I played Shadowbane and thought I would give PvP a try. Now that game was the complete grief gank fest and I knew it would fail as it ended up doing. I got my feet wet though for PvP in that game and though of all kinds of ways pvp could be fair and less griefing. Then WoW came along, they had zero pvp in the beginning other than flagging yourself and killing each other for fun between Southshore and Tauren Mill. Then they added more and more and more content and this was how hooked on PvP. I chose to do it, lost nothing for doing it and away came my fear and hate of PvP.
Now by no means was WoW pvp perfect but it was an option thing to do in a game. It was perfect in that sense. It had flaws and still does to this day. 5 years later I have a cousin that still plays it and I mess with his toons here and there and it still is fun. The first thing I had to get over was the fear of getting ganked. Man I cannot tell you how I despised this. If you lose nothing though it just like dieing in CoD4. You respawn and get back into action. Its still your choice to be there. You don't have to participate. If JGE approaches PvP in this matter it will not have any impact on PvE players. However if they make it so you can only get the best stuff from PvP areas, I am with the that thinks it will be a failure. WoW though having optional PvP got me into PvP. If it had been force there is no way in hell I would have even started in the area.
To all the PvP doomsayers, PvP can be in a game and be optional and fun also rewarding if done right. To all the PvP defenders and lovers (including myself) You are fooling yourself to thinking PvP must be in for any MMO's success. PvP is a niche, we love it most don't. The only way for our niche to grow is for it to be always optional with rules as such that people unwanting are never forced to have to deal with PvP. Forced PvP will always fail if a company doen't provide its users a solid PvE experience (WARHAMMER). We PvPer's need PvEer's not the other way around. The only way to get more folks into PvP is for the company to provide the least grief free PvP as possible, and not make an only route to attain something like gear pvp gear that segrigates the WoW PvPers from the PvEers. I love PvP, but open no rule pvp always fails. Thats why runnin games like WoW have so few PvP servers outta the bazzillion servers they have. Telling someone to grow a pair or suck it up isn't a good way to get them interested in PvP.
Warhammer Online is a good example of a PvP almost being successful. However due to the fact they the PvE suffered and was broken in many areas people there were forced to mainly PvP which get boring also if you don't have good strong PvE as well as a robust player driven crafting system. If based there world around strong PvE with lots of character customization option and a good player crafting system this game would be failing. They however thought like so many others that PvP would be so good they didn't need all these things and now its failing as a result. This I think outta all the MMO's to come and pass way my biggest dissapointment because the had the Warhammer IP and ruined it. I grew up play Warhammer PnP with family and friends. sad sad sad. Sorry for the long read....
One correction: Warhammer does not have forced PvP.
I disagree that a game HAS to have PvE to be successful. As long as the devs realize that PvP is a niche market, and budget accordingly, a true PvP game can be successful. In my experience, almost no one played Warhammer for PvE. It was just something to do while waiting for a scenario to pop, or when the open RvR wasn't happening.
And thats the same close mindedness that is why it is failing. The PvE is crap and thats why the population is left in droves. Once the casuals got to higher levels and realized the PvE was not going to change. As well as things promised like no stuns or other CC powers ended up show their evil heads at higher levels. No only did warhammer have worse CC than WoW it topped it moreso in every class had CC abilities, not just the rogues. Causuals are what drove the game in the begining. I cannot tell you how happy I was in the beginng seeing poeple say this was the first PvP game they ever tried. I knew though the game not have social aggro outside, flaws and low limits and absolutely no randomness to the public quest loot forcing folks to have to do them over and over and even then sometimes not win would evertually make people mad and leave.
PvEers drove the game in the beginning. Word of mouth of how cool RvR was at lower levels got more folk that wouldn't even consider pvp to join. I myself got 2 of my friend to join that absoultely hated pvp. They turned around in there thinking about pvp, when they saw how it work and the PQ's. Once they saw the lack of PvE content and lack of dungeons they left. For you PvE was just something to do while you waited for you scenarios to pop. For others boring ass PvE and too much CC in PvP is what cause me and my friends to leave the game.
PvE is crap (I agree about the dungeons, in particular), but so is the CC in higher tiers, so is end game, so is performance, so is the amount of bugs.
There are several reasons people left the game. Lower level PvP is the only true success of the game. If the PvP quality had been maintained through to end game, the game would be a limited success - even with the poor PvE. No one came to Warhammer for good PvE unless they were total Warhammer IP fanboys. No one with MMORPG experience expected Warhammer to match the PvE content in other more established games.