Basically due to the large number of flaws in the game & gameplay any game you pick to compare it too will be better in more catagories.

But again back to the main topic. While I have brought up points and examples of how the game is bad. All responses have been unable to bring up positive qualities of the game.

So for what ever reason you are tring to defend the game, you have been unable to bring forward any vailid points to suport your view.

So while I can understand why some people would want to defend a game, because I can bring up points on how the games is bad and will all the posts with no points of how the game is good in any way, it only supports the view that the game is The Worse Game Ever.

If you want to try to support your view of the game you should go through the proper steps to do so. Sp list the pro's & con's of the game then go through the list and make an argument againist the game and then a argument for the game and then try to point out how your view is the right. But when you do this don't be surprised if you do this and find the side againist the game is stronger. The game is not good at all.

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Originally posted by Feldron
The point is if you don't go through want is wrong with the game it can't be fixed. However if you go through the list of things that need improvement or need to be reworked. You will find all that is left is the graphics and graphics alone does not make a game. So the problems are so extentsive that the game would have to be completely reworked. So much so that it is unlikely that the dev will be able to do so.

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many f2p games are cropping up globably to compete with p2p, and I say we need more of them! Being forced to pay for a game more than once is insulting, and that's what monthly fees are all about. I've gladly shelled out cash in games that have a cash item store instead of monthly fees. It allows you to show your appreciation of the game on your terms.

Worst game Ever? I hardly think so. I've played much worse, and while this game is not original by far, it has some points over similar games.

1) Pet system: Nice variety, although could be larger... then again, it's still in BETA. Being able to buy a horse from NPC, or a captured pet adds a little flavor to the game. Class specific mounts are nice, although seeing an overseer/hunter on a reindeer reminds me of Santa Claus. Best of all, they don't vanish after a certain period of time, they die, or unmount it.

2) Parties: Ok, no big deal here, but I like the fact that item drops are shared. Plenty of gamers out there may complain about it, but a shared item system is better than racing to an item to see who gets it first. You can always trade items with each other later. It's call TEAMWORK and COOPERATION.

3) PvP/War zones: Don't have to worry about some high level noob waiting outside of town for any lowbies to come out and be slaughtered. You want to fight? Go to a warzone and get pwned like the noob you are. 'Nuff said.

4) Storyline: Nothing out of the ordinary, but it's not blah either. It has many elements from asian mythology, and it's written by established martial art novelists. Don't just download the client and get into the grind, read the story behind the game. Anybody can point and click. Few will take the time to learn what it's all about.

5) Fun Factor: Is it fun for you? Is it fun for your friends? If it is, it can't be all that bad. If it's not, don't waste your time playing it, and go find something else to do with your time... like flame that game you hate so much in a forum, play basketball, watch TV... or *gasp!* get a job...

#5 in my humble opinion, is the most important. If a game isn't fun for me, there's no point in playing it. In fact, there's no point in talking or thinking about it. Just put it in the past and move on to the next. There's always a new game around the next click. ;)

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Originally posted by ultimusmagus

many f2p games are cropping up globably to compete with p2p, and I say we need more of them! Being forced to pay for a game more than once is insulting, and that's what monthly fees are all about. I've gladly shelled out cash in games that have a cash item store instead of monthly fees. It allows you to show your appreciation of the game on your terms.

Worst game Ever? I hardly think so. I've played much worse, and while this game is not original by far, it has some points over similar games.

1) Pet system: Nice variety, although could be larger... then again, it's still in BETA. Being able to buy a horse from NPC, or a captured pet adds a little flavor to the game. Class specific mounts are nice, although seeing an overseer/hunter on a reindeer reminds me of Santa Claus. Best of all, they don't vanish after a certain period of time, they die, or unmount it.

2) Parties: Ok, no big deal here, but I like the fact that item drops are shared. Plenty of gamers out there may complain about it, but a shared item system is better than racing to an item to see who gets it first. You can always trade items with each other later. It's call TEAMWORK and COOPERATION.

Parties would say are flawed, because the classes are broken a warrior can solo and get more exp per hour then just about any party,

Also if anyone in a party just kicks back and leaches all the other players are working to lvl up the other who isn't helping them. 

Until they define the roles of the other classes and how they work in a party the parties will be flawed   

3) PvP/War zones: Don't have to worry about some high level noob waiting outside of town for any lowbies to come out and be slaughtered. You want to fight? Go to a warzone and get pwned like the noob you are. 'Nuff said.

yeah pvp is in the game but then you go back to the character classes and you still end up with a pvp system that needs work.

4) Storyline: Nothing out of the ordinary, but it's not blah either. It has many elements from asian mythology, and it's written by established martial art novelists. Don't just download the client and get into the grind, read the story behind the game. Anybody can point and click. Few will take the time to learn what it's all about.

Yeah they got some but its such a small amount and you have periods of time where you got no quests or lore or anything to do but grind to gain exp until next quest and even then the quests are a bit disappointing 

5) Fun Factor: Is it fun for you? Is it fun for your friends? If it is, it can't be all that bad. If it's not, don't waste your time playing it, and go find something else to do with your time... like flame that game you hate so much in a forum, play basketball, watch TV... or *gasp!* get a job...

#5 in my humble opinion, is the most important. If a game isn't fun for me, there's no point in playing it. In fact, there's no point in talking or thinking about it. Just put it in the past and move on to the next. There's always a new game around the next click. ;)

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and Warhammer

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Originally posted by Jodando

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Originally posted by Feldron

The only thing good about the game is graphic's and even then aren't breath taking or any thing just good

The game is pure grind.

Every game has grind. Otherwise, the games would require no effort. It's essential for providing some level of difficulty in the game.

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I am yellow.

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Originally posted by Feldron

My response is in blue

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Originally posted by Jodando

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Originally posted by Feldron

The only thing good about the game is graphic's and even then aren't breath taking or any thing just good

The game is pure grind.

Every game has grind. Otherwise, the games would require no effort. It's essential for providing some level of difficulty in the game.

Not true, good games have other things to do in game other then just grind thi game however has currently only basic slay monster quests and every few of them

The unfortunate thing most people seem to accept in the MMO market is that it is practically essential to have a grind.  This couldn't be farther away from the truth.  Time invested in a game shouldn't simply be the only method in which the player is rewarded.  Subsequently, this leads players to having the mentality that:

TIME SPENT = SKILL, which is essentially a lie in itself.  There is a difference between beating someone over the head with a +9999999999999 level 9999999999999 Warhammer and having a fair, equal sided duel.

Games don't necessarily have to have a grind, OR EVEN LEVELS, for the game itself to still be challenging and entertaining.

The characters have no depth every player is just like the next.

I thought that at first, too. But I noticed the GMs had different faces and features. From what I heard from them, there might be better customization later in the game.

Sadly no the gm's can have them but players can not

Right.  Why would it matter if GMs could look the same or different from other players?  MMO[RPG], Role playing game... Most players desire to have the ability to make their character stand out, or at the very least look unique. 

The classes are a joke they just give you like 1 starting skill and latter like 5 at most.

Keep playing. The level cap is 100, so don't assume so little about what's available.

The classes are worthless you can ask anyone you plays it the hunter only can tame monster and has no other reason to it and is crippled compared to a warrior the healer is a waste of space as the instant heal items do a better job and have no recast time the assain has to be highly specialized to compare to a warrior and a warrior's only point is to grind

Classes in of themselves are a horrible idea for any MMORPG.  You are locking the player into a skillset they are doomed to play for the entire life of that character.  This is a severe problem with most MMORPGs nowadays, and that is why I personally believe we need more online games utilizing skill based systems rather than pure level-based grinds.  TIME SPENT DOES-NOT EQUAL SKILL. 

The skills in the game are very lame and most are not worth having.

"Very lame" doesn't help much in criticism. Try describing it a bit better.

I got far enough the skills are ever few and the majority are worthless there is like 1-2 good one for each player class and weapon set with all other skills in the line being too worthless to actually have and even then only if you build your char solo to use them

"The skills in the game are not interesting, nor are they varied or entertaining to use.  They provide nothing towards the overall depth of gameplay and add very little for a rewarding experience." How about that?

The game plays the same from one class to the next and its pure grind.

It sounds to me you haven't gone very far in either of the classes. If you hate grinding so much, maybe MMORPGs really aren't for you.

I play each class and far enough they all play 1 of too ways straight forward grind basic attack or grind with special attacks they don't have roles to play like the classes in other games

MMORPGs don't necessarily have to constitute grind-based gameplay. HOWEVER, most companys nowadays revolve around this mindset like it depended on their lives.  The fact of the matter is, more and more MMORPGs are being released with the same exact gameplay mechanics WITH EXTREMELY SLIGHT TWEAKS made to the overall gameplay.

The quests a lame and poorly done and every few in number.

"Lame" again. How are they lame? How are they poorly done?

The quests in game a basic slay monster with no depth and have lvl limits the storyline quest is sectional and with limits on the sections and also are just slay monster or talk to this person who tell you to slay monsters

Yes, at least make the quests somewhat interesting or provide some sort of purpose to the story, rather than just rewarding the player with some random skill, item or experience.  MMORPGs need more complex and over arching storylines.  Most people skip dialogue and stories altogether in MMORPGs unless they are serious RPers.  Why? Because most of the time, the stories are boring and not worth delving into.

Inflation is a problem already and the game has only been played for a short time.

If you mean population inflation, doesn't that suggest players like the game? *Shrug*

No money inflation you have player charge 1-2 Million for lvl 23 items

And let's not forget the wonderful addition of botters, farmers and ebayers.

The item system is poorly designed. you are this lvl this is the gear you have.

Once again, it seems you haven't played very far. Your options may be limited at low levels, but that's to provide an incentive to actually get to higher levels.

No played more then far enough and anyone who played the game can tell you the item system goes your this lvl so that mean you where this gear and you see if you can get +'s for it but you have little to no choice in gear, There is no rare or unquie or named items

Players should not have to WORK in any portion of the game to reach a point where they are ENTERTAINED.  Even if a game had the most amazing gameplay, realistic graphics and jaw dropping storyline, if it isn't immediately accessible, entertaining and fun right from the start, then why should the overall playerbase even bother?  I personally play games to have fun, not to do jobs, errands or feel like I'm working.

Basically they would have to redo the entire game to fix the problems with it.

The only thing good about the game is graphic's and even then aren't breath taking or any thing just good

The game is pure grind.

Every game has grind. Otherwise, the games would require no effort. It's essential for providing some level of difficulty in the game.

Not true, good games have other things to do in game other then just grind thi game however has currently only basic slay monster quests and every few of them

Correct, there are many games in existence that don't utilize grind-based gameplay to achieve a rewarding and entertaining gameplay experience. Grinding IS NOT A NECESSITY for ANY MMORPG.  Again, TIME SPENT -DOES NOT- EQUAL SKILL.

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Originally posted by naldric
This game really cant be the worst game ever since DnL already got that throne, and it is selling for full price...

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I agree! This game really does suc. I played for only a few minutes and i uninstalled everything. The graphics are bad. The camera angle sux for me. You cant evn sit to recover HP+MP. I rate it as 1/100.

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Originally posted by archroid

I agree! This game really does suc. I played for only a few minutes and i uninstalled everything. The graphics are bad. The camera angle sux for me. You cant evn sit to recover HP+MP. I rate it as 1/100.

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Originally posted by Jodando
You guys keep stating the flaws of this game, but I STILL have yet to see a suggestion for a game that DOES incorporate all the features you desire. Examples, please! So we DO have something to compare to. If Hero isn't doing things right, tell us who is!

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It is impossible to accomdate the needs and desires of every single individual in the gaming market for an MMO.  Any company that attempts to achieve such a feat will result in a game that is never finished or complete.

But, from a personal standpoint, games that have done things correctly OR have at least attempted to break the mold in some fashion include:

Ultima Online(PRE-EA/TRAMMEL) - Completely skill based system.  Geographical housing.  Open PVP heavily dependant on the player's skill with the keyboard, mouse, understanding of macros as well as their character's skillset.  You are not locked into a class, however you can only master 7 skills on one character.

Eve Online - Zero effort required for character development. No levels. Everything is skill based. It is technically possible to learn every skill in the game. You are not locked into a class.  You play the game to socialize, earn money, participate in battles and to generally have fun- NOT to work on character development by doing mindless tasks over and over and over again.  Why do people sometimes resort to using bots, even if they have plenty of time to play a game?

Saga of Ryzom - Skill based system divided into four arts.  Extremely unique and innovative method of handling skills and actions- Players create their own attacks and spells, similarily to the Elder Scroll series. No levels. You are not locked into a class. 

Guild Wars- You don't even have to grind.  You can create a max level character right from the start meant specifically for PVP and still be surprisingly effective in battle.  While there are levels in the game, the gameplay revolves around equipping and strategizing the right build for your character, as well as the ability to use the correct skills at any point in time and to react accordingly.  The ridiculously large amount of skills in this game can result in an almost infinite combination of skillsets resulting in a unique character build that only the player themselves can effectively use if they know what they are doing.

While these 4 games present some form of grinding to an extent, whether it be for cash or character development, NONE OF THEM are as heavily dependant on the notion of killing for hours and hours mindlessly as seen in most asian-based MMOs.  In these 4 games, you are not 99.9% of the time attacking, sitting down, standing up, attacking, sitting down, standing up, etc etc etc.  These games provide you with an amazing amount of depth, choice and freedom for your character.  If you are bored with a particular task, you can do something else and enjoy that just as well.  If you don't like how your character's skillset or build is working, then change it and try something else.

Ragnarok Online, Silkroad Online, Hero Online, RF Online, Mu Online, SEAL online, FlyForFun, ROSE Online, Conquer Online and Lineage all essentially share the same gameplay formula, and that is the undeniable truth.  Endless grinding for extremely limited character development and freedom.  You play to kill and only to kill, and to attain a few measly points used to strengthen your character by a marginal amount.  And by end game, how many skills have you unlocked for your character?  And by that point do you even remotely ENJOY playing that character class? 

Create a character, step outside of town, kill something, repeat for a week, upgrade equipment, move to town 2, kill something, repeat for a month, upgrade equipment, move to town 3, kill something, repeat for a year, upgrade your equipment, sell your account on ebay.  That personally doesn't sound as fun, nor as gratifying as other MMOs with actual depth that are worth playing.

And worst of all, these types of games teach the worst type of mentality- That actual player skill is based on time spent in a game rather than actual pure skill and understanding of the game's rulesets and knowledge of the gameplay itself. 

 I know you've seen this happen at least once to another player, if not to yourself. "LOL noob i totally pwnzed you cuz i pwn go learn2play"- level 99 warrior with +999999999 PVP mace.

Levels and gear-centric gameplay don't have to necessarily be the end all be all experience for MMO gaming.

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Originally posted by keiichi2k3

Ragnarok Online, Silkroad Online, Hero Online, RF Online, Mu Online, SEAL online, FlyForFun, ROSE Online, Conquer Online and Lineage all essentially share the same gameplay formula, and that is the undeniable truth.  Endless grinding for extremely limited character development and freedom.  You play to kill and only to kill, and to attain a few measly points used to strengthen your character by a marginal amount.  And by end game, how many skills have you unlocked for your character?  And by that point do you even remotely ENJOY playing that character class? 

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Worst game?? Think I can imagine some really rubbish from the history of games.

I lokked at it, read about it and saw the movie and screenshots.

GW got a better graphic, but GW is boring. It is more a movie than a game... Very stunning graphic almost made me cry when you see how the light plays through the window in pre-Ascelon.

WoW, Great graphic, good gameplay. But the char-creation is too limited (not as limited as GW). lots of items, but it becomes a bit dull. But WoW is the best MMO as far as I see.. No RP of course... not even close... (Don't tell me there is RP-serves... the only good thing about those servers are the name restriction... but then again pick a foreign language and you can call youself (Fuckyourmother))

CoH/CoV... To games who might seems like one, but they are different. But here is the problem that it is not as stunning as GW and WoW, and first when you reach beyond lvl 15 It begins to catch. No probs with the Char-creation they got the best char-creation. A huge city and some fair missions.

Hero Online: Still waiting to get in, But hey it is an Oriental game, I have waited for such game for long now... There is of course a few thing that they miss, but I think they'll get it done before release. It is of course only beta. I remember how WoW was in the beta-proccess, not as pretty as now.

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Originally posted by Feldron

hair styles wouldn't fix tha games problems

But is still cool!

if the charge normal mmo rates about$40 for the box and about $10-15 a month the game would be dead

Nope then it would be a huge game...

the only reason the game will stick around if it does is because its free and the has a pay for items shop based and using korean production staff so the money little money they do make would still be actectable to them

Nothing wrong with Korea... And GW is NOT good and still hold on... why?? Free^^

They however doesn't address the fact that the game is bad very bad. it needs to be fixed however likely won't will end up like all the other games that are being mass produce with this format and yes you can easily do down the list of game list here at mmorpg.com and will find a bunch of game following the format of

You could make your own MMORPG, I alway get that stuff thrown in my face when I complain;)

Make graphic's look nice

It is fine enough, but think VG:SoH would suit your type better.

basic grind game play, little other content

Some use WoW for the same purpose.

pay for items shop free to play

The game lacks all the basic's of what makes a game good the only thing done right is the graphic, they could make the game better if they would over the other aspects of the game

It is YOUR opinion, a good game huh? Snake was pretty good. Still play old classics. It is actually induvidual. I am alway in love with the game due to the Oriental theme, and alot of other players seems to like it too... That would make it a good game right? Majority?

however the other aspects of the game require more time and skill to implement right

Yeah, but someone already mention the word beta....

and they are just ingore the actual gameplay for graphic's and only graphic's and that a hugh shame the game can never be great if they don't address the other aspects of the game

You might have a future for gamedesigner and programmer... But still you have to be more open over for the positive aspects in the game. I for once would like to see a RP game.. and this might be the one (don't tell me it can be done, I did it succesfully in WoW, which says alot).

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Originally posted by Feldron

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Originally posted by j03s0m3b0dy
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA once again nice grammer newb. im guessing ur 8 years old!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA "worsest" HAHAHAHA nice one. HAHAHAHAHAHA. 

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This is a perfect example of a classical falisy. Attacking or insulting the person rather then addressing the issue. If you look through the reply's on the list here you will see no acutal resposne that would support any thing other then that the game is flawed and a bad game.

You would do better by going through and finding thing that actualy support your view. But then again you will not find any because the game is truely flawed and bad. There has also been bug and reports on them that have never been address and it is my belief that you will find the game company ingoring them as they are looking for the small profit the game can turn out and not actually try to make a great game.

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Originally posted by keiichi2k3

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It is impossible to accomdate the needs and desires of every single individual in the gaming market for an MMO.  Any company that attempts to achieve such a feat will result in a game that is never finished or complete.

Which is my point exactly. If the audience that Hero Online appeals to doesn't include you, then there's really no point in yelling at the company or its players for being involved in "the worst game ever." Just move on and find your game. Don't try to topple another game from under its players' feet.

But, from a personal standpoint, games that have done things correctly OR have at least attempted to break the mold in some fashion include:

Ultima Online(PRE-EA/TRAMMEL) - Completely skill based system.  Geographical housing.  Open PVP heavily dependant on the player's skill with the keyboard, mouse, understanding of macros as well as their character's skillset.  You are not locked into a class, however you can only master 7 skills on one character.

What game with PvP doesn't require skill with the keyboard, mouse, macros, and character skillset? While one game might stress one aspect more than another, PvP in general will always require skill of some sort. Potting? Sure, it may be stupid in 1v1 PvP, but that just creates opportunity for creating strategies on a wider scale. If you know your enemy can pot, you're forced to communicate within your party about who to concentrate fire on. In the end, no amount of potting can overcome good strategy.

Eve Online - Zero effort required for character development. No levels. Everything is skill based. It is technically possible to learn every skill in the game. You are not locked into a class.  You play the game to socialize, earn money, participate in battles and to generally have fun- NOT to work on character development by doing mindless tasks over and over and over again.  Why do people sometimes resort to using bots, even if they have plenty of time to play a game?

Yes, people play games to socialize, earn money, and participate in battles. But there are those who DO play to work on character development. And there are those who don't mind grinding as the avenue for such development, because they know creating a well-developed character takes time and effort. This goes for most things in life. Raising children takes time and effort, starting a career takes time and effort, building a relationship takes time and effort...

Saga of Ryzom - Skill based system divided into four arts.  Extremely unique and innovative method of handling skills and actions- Players create their own attacks and
spells, similarily to the Elder Scroll series. No levels. You are not locked into a class. 

Once again, I'm sure this appeals greatly to a certain audience, just as Hero Online appeals to a different audience. I'm not going to go further into why I thing levels and classes are necessary because I know that whatever I say isn't going to convince you... just as what you are saying doesn't convince me. But just know that there ARE those out there who appreciate the levels and being locked in a class.

Guild Wars- You don't even have to grind.  You can create a max level character right from the start meant specifically for PVP and still be surprisingly effective in battle.  While there are levels in the game, the gameplay revolves around equipping and strategizing the right build for your character, as well as the ability to use the correct skills at any point in time and to react accordingly.  The ridiculously large amount of skills in this game can result in an almost infinite combination of skillsets resulting in a unique character build that only the player themselves can effectively use if they know what they are doing.

I'm not sure about you, but it seems to me that being able to make a max level character from the start kinda lowers the value of other max level characters who HAVE been leveled from grind.

While these 4 games present some form of grinding to an extent, whether it be for cash or character development, NONE OF THEM are as heavily dependant on the notion of killing for hours and hours mindlessly as seen in most asian-based MMOs.  In these 4 games, you are not 99.9% of the time attacking, sitting down, standing up, attacking, sitting down, standing up, etc etc etc.  These games provide you with an amazing amount of depth, choice and freedom for your character.  If you are bored with a particular task, you can do something else and enjoy that just as well.  If you don't like how your character's skillset or build is working, then change it and try something else.

Let's keep in mind that Hero Online is a free game. Isn't it asking a bit too much from a free game to rival a paid game in depth, choice, and freedom? Let's also keep in mind another benefit of a free game: you don't HAVE to spend hours and hours in front of your computer screen; you're not paying for that time. With Pay2play games, players want more content because they want to make the most of their monthy dues. The less they play every month, the more their money is wasted. There's nothing to waste in free2play games. Bored? Go outside and play with your friends. Enjoy the outside world. That's the freedom free2play games offer.

Ragnarok Online, Silkroad Online, Hero Online, RF Online, Mu Online, SEAL online, FlyForFun, ROSE Online, Conquer Online and Lineage all essentially share the same gameplay formula, and that is the undeniable truth.  Endless grinding for extremely limited character development and freedom.  You play to kill and only to kill, and to attain a few measly points used to strengthen your character by a marginal amount.  And by end game, how many skills have you unlocked for your character?  And by that point do you even remotely ENJOY playing that character class?

You'd be surprised at how many people would say "yes" to that last question. Why else would people still be playing those games? You apparently hate that style of play. Ok. Don't play. I personally don't like your style, but I'm not going over to other games' forums and telling players that they're playing nonsense. They're having fun, just as we're having fun.

Create a character, step outside of town, kill something, repeat for a week, upgrade equipment, move to town 2, kill something, repeat for a month, upgrade equipment, move to town 3, kill something, repeat for a year, upgrade your equipment, sell your account on ebay.  That personally doesn't sound as fun, nor as gratifying as other MMOs with actual depth that are worth playing.

You can say it doesn't sound fun all you want. Like I said, people are playing, so there must be some appeal. Personally, my appeal is the fact that after that week+month+year, I can look at my character and see the fruits of my labor. Then I can move on. Sure, sticking to one game for life may be the ideal concept, but the fact of the matter is, you have to move on sometime. And I don't sell my accounts on ebay, because I'd be robbing someone else of that character developing experience.

And worst of all, these types of games teach the worst type of mentality- That actual player skill is based on time spent in a game rather than actual pure skill and understanding of the game's rulesets and knowledge of the gameplay itself.

You're right. Skill does NOT equal time. But let's look at it this way: not everyone is as skilled as you. Everyone is allotted a different amount of skill... some people have lots of it, and some people have very little. Sad, but true. Does that mean all those players who don't have as much pure skill should suffer in-game? You mentioned disliking being locked into a class. Wouldn't creating a game based on pure skill essentially lock players into their skill-class? Those with higher hand-eye coordination and whatnot would rule. Is that really fair? Games aren't meant to put skilled people in the spotlight. They're meant for everyone to have fun.

In that way, those types of games you hate help equalize the playing field. Time is more constant than skill. So while time does NOT equal skill, it is correlated. Who makes better use of their time? Who's willing to put in the time and effort to make their character stronger than others? To me, I think hard work is more valuable than pure skill.

 I know you've seen this happen at least once to another player, if not to yourself. "LOL noob i totally pwnzed you cuz i pwn go learn2play"- level 99 warrior with +999999999 PVP mace.

I have had that happen to me, yes. But it didn't make me uninstall the game and stomp on the CD in a fit of fury. While the guy's a jerk, I have to respect him for spending that time. Unless, he bought that account off ebay. But that's not the game's problem. That's a problem with the players. In any case, that's even more incentive for me to work hard for my character.

Levels and gear-centric gameplay don't have to necessarily be the end all be all experience for MMO gaming.

You're right. They don't. But neither does skill-based gameplay.

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clone army!!! cant custimize characters rofl. neways im just gonna play this untill 9dragons beta comes till then ill be part of a clone army : D

This is a perfect example of a classical falisy. Attacking or insulting the person rather then addressing the issue. If you look through the reply's on the list here you will see no acutal resposne that would support any thing other then that the game is flawed and a bad game.

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Originally posted by Jodando

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Originally posted by keiichi2k3

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It is impossible to accomdate the needs and desires of every single individual in the gaming market for an MMO.  Any company that attempts to achieve such a feat will result in a game that is never finished or complete.

Which is my point exactly. If the audience that Hero Online appeals to doesn't include you, then there's really no point in yelling at the company or its players for being involved in "the worst game ever." Just move on and find your game. Don't try to topple another game from under its players' feet.

Everything I wrote is through my own personal perspective, my own personal point of view as well as my thoughts on the MMO market in general.  Just because I say something doesn't mean I am saying it as a factual standpoint.  Don't expect me to begin every sentence with, "Well in my opinion... this" and "Well, in my opinion... that," because it is common sense that everything I am typing is of my own personal Opinion.  And I am NOT the original topic creator of this thread, I am merely providing more to the discussion at hand.  I'm not toppling any game for anything-  People play this game, and there is a reason why Lineage 1/2 still own about 30% of the overall marketshare in the MMO market.  People enjoy it.  I don't, but that's just me.  I respect their business and the amount of hours and effort they put into creating their game- I just don't personally enjoy it.

But, from a personal standpoint, games that have done things correctly OR have at least attempted to break the mold in some fashion include:

Ultima Online(PRE-EA/TRAMMEL) - Completely skill based system.  Geographical housing.  Open PVP heavily dependant on the player's skill with the keyboard, mouse, understanding of macros as well as their character's skillset.  You are not locked into a class, however you can only master 7 skills on one character.

What game with PvP doesn't require skill with the keyboard, mouse, macros, and character skillset? While one game might stress one aspect more than another, PvP in general will always require skill of some sort. Potting? Sure, it may be stupid in 1v1 PvP, but that just creates opportunity for creating strategies on a wider scale. If you know your enemy can pot, you're forced to communicate within your party about who to concentrate fire on. In the end, no amount of potting can overcome good strategy.

It is impossible for me to explain to you the type of depth and strategy involved in a game like Ultima Online unless you have played it yourself and have participated in Factions.  It is near impossible to take over towns unless you have excellent communication between your teammates over VoIP.  I've beta tested every mainstream korean MMO out there, including RF Online which was touted to have the most incredible, strategic and tactical PVP experiences ever to be known in an MMO.  But it simply boiled down to spamming pots, following the leader and beating on his target and leading giant lines of players to attack the same target.  And with the limited amount of skills in a game such as that, it's really implausible to have any sort of depth or strategy to the PVP.  But that's just RF Online in terms of pot spamming (Which I didn't even bring up- But subsequently, Ultima Online does have access to potions but they will not get you anywhere in surviving PVP fights)

Eve Online - Zero effort required for character development. No levels. Everything is skill based. It is technically possible to learn every skill in the game. You are not locked into a class.  You play the game to socialize, earn money, participate in battles and to generally have fun- NOT to work on character development by doing mindless tasks over and over and over again.  Why do people sometimes resort to using bots, even if they have plenty of time to play a game?

Yes, people play games to socialize, earn money, and participate in battles. But there are those who DO play to work on character development. And there are those who don't mind grinding as the avenue for such development, because they know creating a well-developed character takes time and effort. This goes for most things in life. Raising children takes time and effort, starting a career takes time and effort, building a relationship takes time and effort...

Real life shouldn't be compared to video games.  I personally play video games to have fun.  Not to have moments where it feels like I'm working and -not- being entertained.  Real life comparatively has moments as well, but real life isn't a video game and there are times when you'd much rather be doing something else or be somewhere else. 

From my perspective, if I am paying to play a game such as Eve Online yet I don't have as much free time because I'm too busy with other tasks, I still believe since I am providing cash to the company that my character should still have access to some form of character development.  Because of their system, I am able to do things I want to do in game and not have to constantly grind out skills that require my attention.

Saga of Ryzom - Skill based system divided into four arts.  Extremely unique and innovative method of handling skills and actions- Players create their own attacks and
spells, similarily to the Elder Scroll series. No levels. You are not locked into a class. 

Once again, I'm sure this appeals greatly to a certain audience, just as Hero Online appeals to a different audience. I'm not going to go further into why I thing levels and classes are necessary because I know that whatever I say isn't going to convince you... just as what you are saying doesn't convince me. But just know that there ARE those out there who appreciate the levels and being locked in a class.

See my first response.  I'm not going to put "In my opinion..." before every sentence I state.

Guild Wars- You don't even have to grind.  You can create a max level character right from the start meant specifically for PVP and still be surprisingly effective in battle.  While there are levels in the game, the gameplay revolves around equipping and strategizing the right build for your character, as well as the ability to use the correct skills at any point in time and to react accordingly.  The ridiculously large amount of skills in this game can result in an almost infinite combination of skillsets resulting in a unique character build that only the player themselves can effectively use if they know what they are doing.

I'm not sure about you, but it seems to me that being able to make a max level character from the start kinda lowers the value of other max level characters who HAVE been leveled from grind.

Guild Wars is free- No monthly fee. The focus of their game is competitive and strategic PVP warfare.  Players that simply do not have the time to dedicate their characters to grinding and farming don't have to, to enjoy what the game is all about.

While these 4 games present some form of grinding to an extent, whether it be for cash or character development, NONE OF THEM are as heavily dependant on the notion of killing for hours and hours mindlessly as seen in most asian-based MMOs.  In these 4 games, you are not 99.9% of the time attacking, sitting down, standing up, attacking, sitting down, standing up, etc etc etc.  These games provide you with an amazing amount of depth, choice and freedom for your character.  If you are bored with a particular task, you can do something else and enjoy that just as well.  If you don't like how your character's skillset or build is working, then change it and try something else.

Let's keep in mind that Hero Online is a free game. Isn't it asking a bit too much from a free game to rival a paid game in depth, choice, and freedom? Let's also keep in mind another benefit of a free game: you don't HAVE to spend hours and hours in front of your computer screen; you're not paying for that time. With Pay2play games, players want more content because they want to make the most of their monthy dues. The less they play every month, the more their money is wasted. There's nothing to waste in free2play games. Bored? Go outside and play with your friends. Enjoy the outside world. That's the freedom free2play games offer.

I spend less than 15 dollars a month on pay2play games, and with that kind of money I gain access to a gaming environment with more depth, strategy and entertainment value (In my opinion!) that I personally enjoy more than playing Free2Play asian-based MMOs.  15 dollars a month is a laughably small amount of money- I spend more on my gas.  I spend more on food. My bills. I'm sorry but through my eyes, I'd much rather get my money's worth. 

Ragnarok Online, Silkroad Online, Hero Online, RF Online, Mu Online, SEAL online, FlyForFun, ROSE Online, Conquer Online and Lineage all essentially share the same gameplay formula, and that is the undeniable truth.  Endless grinding for extremely limited character development and freedom.  You play to kill and only to kill, and to attain a few measly points used to strengthen your character by a marginal amount.  And by end game, how many skills have you unlocked for your character?  And by that point do you even remotely ENJOY playing that character class?

You'd be surprised at how many people would say "yes" to that last question. Why else would people still be playing those games? You apparently hate that style of play. Ok. Don't play. I personally don't like your style, but I'm not going over to other games' forums and telling players that they're playing nonsense. They're having fun, just as we're having fun.

Well I am sorry if you think I am here to yell at how everyone is stupid and that their opinion is false, because that isn't my intention, nor has it ever crossed my mind.  I don't come here to convince people, I posted because I wanted to provide some meaningful discussion to the original poster's topic.

Create a character, step outside of town, kill something, repeat for a week, upgrade equipment, move to town 2, kill something, repeat for a month, upgrade equipment, move to town 3, kill something, repeat for a year, upgrade your equipment, sell your account on ebay.  That personally doesn't sound as fun, nor as gratifying as other MMOs with actual depth that are worth playing.

You can say it doesn't sound fun all you want. Like I said, people are playing, so there must be some appeal. Personally, my appeal is the fact that after that week+month+year, I can look at my character and see the fruits of my labor. Then I can move on. Sure, sticking to one game for life may be the ideal concept, but the fact of the matter is, you have to move on sometime. And I don't sell my accounts on ebay, because I'd be robbing someone else of that character developing experience.

I never said, nor did I imply that someone should play one single game for life.  The video game industry is a growing and evolving entity with newer, better and more innovative games being released every year.  A player locking themselves into one single game for the entire duration of their lives is blinding themselves from what the video game industry has to offer.

And worst of all, these types of games teach the worst type of mentality- That actual player skill is based on time spent in a game rather than actual pure skill and understanding of the game's rulesets and knowledge of the gameplay itself.

You're right. Skill does NOT equal time. But let's look at it this way: not everyone is as skilled as you. Everyone is allotted a different amount of

Whoa now- I never said I was skilled at anything.  In all honesty I think I suck at PVP.


skill... some people have lots of it, and some people have very little. Sad, but true. Does that mean all those players who don't have as much pure skill should suffer in-game? You mentioned disliking being locked into a class. Wouldn't creating a game based on pure skill essentially lock players into their skill-class? Those with higher hand-eye coordination and whatnot would rule. Is that really fair? Games aren't meant to put skilled people in the spotlight. They're meant for everyone to have fun.

In that way, those types of games you hate help equalize the playing field. Time is more constant than skill. So while time does NOT equal skill, it is correlated. Who makes better use of their time? Who's willing to put in the time and effort to make their character stronger than others? To me, I think hard work is more valuable than pure skill.

Hard work is absolutely just as valuable as skill.  A person should by all means have some sort of dedication to something- They shouldn't simply be rewarded with godlike powers in any MMO environment because they are lazy.  And honestly, only people that purchase ebay accounts are those types of people since they basically rob THEMSELVES of the gameplay and what it has to offer them, regardless of what game it is.

I'm just saying that POINTLESS HARD WORK is useless. 

 I know you've seen this happen at least once to another player, if not to yourself. "LOL noob i totally pwnzed you cuz i pwn go learn2play"- level 99 warrior with +999999999 PVP mace.

I have had that happen to me, yes. But it didn't make me uninstall the game and stomp on the CD in a fit of fury. While the guy's a jerk, I have to respect him for spending that time. Unless, he bought that account off ebay. But that's not the game's problem. That's a problem with the players. In any case, that's even more incentive for me to work hard for my character.


So then are you saying that people in a game that have more free time in general should be more rewarded than the player who has a full time job, a wife, three kids and goes on business trips every weekday?  I personally believe everyone who plays a game and enjoys it for competitive reasons should all be able to participate competitively on an EVEN playing field so that it is fair for everyone.

I mean honestly, would you have a professional NFL league team go against a team of highschoolers?

In my opinion, Levels and gear-centric gameplay don't have to necessarily be the end all be all experience for MMO gaming.

You're right. They don't. But neither does skill-based gameplay.

That should have already been implied because all I am stating are my own personal opinions, but I suppose it wasn't obvious enough for you.

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(double posted)

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Originally posted by keiichi2k3

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Originally posted by Jodando

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Originally posted by keiichi2k3

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It is impossible to accomdate the needs and desires of every single individual in the gaming market for an MMO.  Any company that attempts to achieve such a feat will result in a game that is never finished or complete.

Which is my point exactly. If the audience that Hero Online appeals to doesn't include you, then there's really no point in yelling at the company or its players for being involved in "the worst game ever." Just move on and find your game. Don't try to topple another game from under its players' feet.

Everything I wrote is through my own personal perspective, my own personal point of view as well as my thoughts on the MMO market in general.  Just because I say something doesn't mean I am saying it as a factual standpoint.  Don't expect me to begin every sentence with, "Well in my opinion... this" and "Well, in my opinion... that," because it is common sense that everything I am typing is of my own personal Opinion.  And I am NOT the original topic creator of this thread, I am merely providing more to the discussion at hand.  I'm not toppling any game for anything-  People play this game, and there is a reason why Lineage 1/2 still own about 30% of the overall marketshare in the MMO market.  People enjoy it.  I don't, but that's just me.  I respect their business and the amount of hours and effort they put into creating their game- I just don't personally enjoy it.

But, from a personal standpoint, games that have done things correctly OR have at least attempted to break the mold in some fashion include:

Ultima Online(PRE-EA/TRAMMEL) - Completely skill based system.  Geographical housing.  Open PVP heavily dependant on the player's skill with the keyboard, mouse, understanding of macros as well as their character's skillset.  You are not locked into a class, however you can only master 7 skills on one character.

What game with PvP doesn't require skill with the keyboard, mouse, macros, and character skillset? While one game might stress one aspect more than another, PvP in general will always require skill of some sort. Potting? Sure, it may be stupid in 1v1 PvP, but that just creates opportunity for creating strategies on a wider scale. If you know your enemy can pot, you're forced to communicate within your party about who to concentrate fire on. In the end, no amount of potting can overcome good strategy.

It is impossible for me to explain to you the type of depth and strategy involved in a game like Ultima Online unless you have played it yourself and have participated in Factions.  It is near impossible to take over towns unless you have excellent communication between your teammates over VoIP.  I've beta tested every mainstream korean MMO out there, including RF Online which was touted to have the most incredible, strategic and tactical PVP experiences ever to be known in an MMO.  But it simply boiled down to spamming pots, following the leader and beating on his target and leading giant lines of players to attack the same target.  And with the limited amount of skills in a game such as that, it's really implausible to have any sort of depth or strategy to the PVP.  But that's just RF Online in terms of pot spamming (Which I didn't even bring up- But subsequently, Ultima Online does have access to potions but they will not get you anywhere in surviving PVP fights)

Eve Online - Zero effort required for character development. No levels. Everything is skill based. It is technically possible to learn every skill in the game. You are not locked into a class.  You play the game to socialize, earn money, participate in battles and to generally have fun- NOT to work on character development by doing mindless tasks over and over and over again.  Why do people sometimes resort to using bots, even if they have plenty of time to play a game?

Yes, people play games to socialize, earn money, and participate in battles. But there are those who DO play to work on character development. And there are those who don't mind grinding as the avenue for such development, because they know creating a well-developed character takes time and effort. This goes for most things in life. Raising children takes time and effort, starting a career takes time and effort, building a relationship takes time and effort...

Real life shouldn't be compared to video games.  I personally play video games to have fun.  Not to have moments where it feels like I'm working and -not- being entertained.  Real life comparatively has moments as well, but real life isn't a video game and there are times when you'd much rather be doing something else or be somewhere else. 

From my perspective, if I am paying to play a game such as Eve Online yet I don't have as much free time because I'm too busy with other tasks, I still believe since I am providing cash to the company that my character should still have access to some form of character development.  Because of their system, I am able to do things I want to do in game and not have to constantly grind out skills that require my attention.

Saga of Ryzom - Skill based system divided into four arts.  Extremely unique and innovative method of handling skills and actions- Players create their own attacks and
spells, similarily to the Elder Scroll series. No levels. You are not locked into a class. 

Once again, I'm sure this appeals greatly to a certain audience, just as Hero Online appeals to a different audience. I'm not going to go further into why I thing levels and classes are necessary because I know that whatever I say isn't going to convince you... just as what you are saying doesn't convince me. But just know that there ARE those out there who appreciate the levels and being locked in a class.

See my first response.  I'm not going to put "In my opinion..." before every sentence I state.

Guild Wars- You don't even have to grind.  You can create a max level character right from the start meant specifically for PVP and still be surprisingly effective in battle.  While there are levels in the game, the gameplay revolves around equipping and strategizing the right build for your character, as well as the ability to use the correct skills at any point in time and to react accordingly.  The ridiculously large amount of skills in this game can result in an almost infinite combination of skillsets resulting in a unique character build that only the player themselves can effectively use if they know what they are doing.

I'm not sure about you, but it seems to me that being able to make a max level character from the start kinda lowers the value of other max level characters who HAVE been leveled from grind.

Guild Wars is free- No monthly fee. The focus of their game is competitive and strategic PVP warfare.  Players that simply do not have the time to dedicate their characters to grinding and farming don't have to, to enjoy what the game is all about.

While these 4 games present some form of grinding to an extent, whether it be for cash or character development, NONE OF THEM are as heavily dependant on the notion of killing for hours and hours mindlessly as seen in most asian-based MMOs.  In these 4 games, you are not 99.9% of the time attacking, sitting down, standing up, attacking, sitting down, standing up, etc etc etc.  These games provide you with an amazing amount of depth, choice and freedom for your character.  If you are bored with a particular task, you can do something else and enjoy that just as well.  If you don't like how your character's skillset or build is working, then change it and try something else.

Let's keep in mind that Hero Online is a free game. Isn't it asking a bit too much from a free game to rival a paid game in depth, choice, and freedom? Let's also keep in mind another benefit of a free game: you don't HAVE to spend hours and hours in front of your computer screen; you're not paying for that time. With Pay2play games, players want more content because they want to make the most of their monthy dues. The less they play every month, the more their money is wasted. There's nothing to waste in free2play games. Bored? Go outside and play with your friends. Enjoy the outside world. That's the freedom free2play games offer.

I spend less than 15 dollars a month on pay2play games, and with that kind of money I gain access to a gaming environment with more depth, strategy and entertainment value (In my opinion!) that I personally enjoy more than playing Free2Play asian-based MMOs.  15 dollars a month is a laughably small amount of money- I spend more on my gas.  I spend more on food. My bills. I'm sorry but through my eyes, I'd much rather get my money's worth. 

Ragnarok Online, Silkroad Online, Hero Online, RF Online, Mu Online, SEAL online, FlyForFun, ROSE Online, Conquer Online and Lineage all essentially share the same gameplay formula, and that is the undeniable truth.  Endless grinding for extremely limited character development and freedom.  You play to kill and only to kill, and to attain a few measly points used to strengthen your character by a marginal amount.  And by end game, how many skills have you unlocked for your character?  And by that point do you even remotely ENJOY playing that character class?

You'd be surprised at how many people would say "yes" to that last question. Why else would people still be playing those games? You apparently hate that style of play. Ok. Don't play. I personally don't like your style, but I'm not going over to other games' forums and telling players that they're playing nonsense. They're having fun, just as we're having fun.

Well I am sorry if you think I am here to yell at how everyone is stupid and that their opinion is false, because that isn't my intention, nor has it ever crossed my mind.  I don't come here to convince people, I posted because I wanted to provide some meaningful discussion to the original poster's topic.

Create a character, step outside of town, kill something, repeat for a week, upgrade equipment, move to town 2, kill something, repeat for a month, upgrade equipment, move to town 3, kill something, repeat for a year, upgrade your equipment, sell your account on ebay.  That personally doesn't sound as fun, nor as gratifying as other MMOs with actual depth that are worth playing.

You can say it doesn't sound fun all you want. Like I said, people are playing, so there must be some appeal. Personally, my appeal is the fact that after that week+month+year, I can look at my character and see the fruits of my labor. Then I can move on. Sure, sticking to one game for life may be the ideal concept, but the fact of the matter is, you have to move on sometime. And I don't sell my accounts on ebay, because I'd be robbing someone else of that character developing experience.

I never said, nor did I imply that someone should play one single game for life.  The video game industry is a growing and evolving entity with newer, better and more innovative games being released every year.  A player locking themselves into one single game for the entire duration of their lives is blinding themselves from what the video game industry has to offer.

And worst of all, these types of games teach the worst type of mentality- That actual player skill is based on time spent in a game rather than actual pure skill and understanding of the game's rulesets and knowledge of the gameplay itself.

You're right. Skill does NOT equal time. But let's look at it this way: not everyone is as skilled as you. Everyone is allotted a different amount of

Whoa now- I never said I was skilled at anything.  In all honesty I think I suck at PVP.


skill... some people have lots of it, and some people have very little. Sad, but true. Does that mean all those players who don't have as much pure skill should suffer in-game? You mentioned disliking being locked into a class. Wouldn't creating a game based on pure skill essentially lock players into their skill-class? Those with higher hand-eye coordination and whatnot would rule. Is that really fair? Games aren't meant to put skilled people in the spotlight. They're meant for everyone to have fun.

In that way, those types of games you hate help equalize the playing field. Time is more constant than skill. So while time does NOT equal skill, it is correlated. Who makes better use of their time? Who's willing to put in the time and effort to make their character stronger than others? To me, I think hard work is more valuable than pure skill.

Hard work is absolutely just as valuable as skill.  A person should by all means have some sort of dedication to something- They shouldn't simply be rewarded with godlike powers in any MMO environment because they are lazy.  And honestly, only people that purchase ebay accounts are those types of people since they basically rob THEMSELVES of the gameplay and what it has to offer them, regardless of what game it is.

I'm just saying that POINTLESS HARD WORK is useless. 

 I know you've seen this happen at least once to another player, if not to yourself. "LOL noob i totally pwnzed you cuz i pwn go learn2play"- level 99 warrior with +999999999 PVP mace.

I have had that happen to me, yes. But it didn't make me uninstall the game and stomp on the CD in a fit of fury. While the guy's a jerk, I have to respect him for spending that time. Unless, he bought that account off ebay. But that's not the game's problem. That's a problem with the players. In any case, that's even more incentive for me to work hard for my character.


So then are you saying that people in a game that have more free time in general should be more rewarded than the player who has a full time job, a wife, three kids and goes on business trips every weekday?  I personally believe everyone who plays a game and enjoys it for competitive reasons should all be able to participate competitively on an EVEN playing field so that it is fair for everyone.

I mean honestly, would you have a professional NFL league team go against a team of highschoolers?

In my opinion, Levels and gear-centric gameplay don't have to necessarily be the end all be all experience for MMO gaming.

You're right. They don't. But neither does skill-based gameplay.

That should have already been implied because all I am stating are my own personal opinions, but I suppose it wasn't obvious enough for you.

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This game is a crock, what does it offer that really is all that different from every other mmo out there? I mean there are very few classes, very few skills for those classes, the entire game is a grind, all you do is kill monsters and do the occasional very mundane quest. then you get to listen to the WoW kids rattle off dudespeak and fire insults at each other in Lions Roar all day long.

I played to 40 in closed beta, and am now 35 in open beta, I have more experience with this game than most on this forum, and frankly i think it does suck. Its very 1 dimensional, and really the only thing about it that stands out are the pets.

Say what you will, but I personally know this game is pretty boring, and when I did the pvp with the GMs on Mudo Island, it was lame. Everyone spams potions, and just gangs up on a couple of people.

lets face it, its the long lost twin brother to Silk Road Online. Dont kid yourself fanbois this game rankles.

course Ill still play it for a while, its free, and there isnt anything else out there that I feel like paying for. so I spose ill suck it up and hang out with the kids a little longer