Dungeon Runners Forum » General Discussion » Interesting new changes coming to Dungeon Runners (long post)

(Please note - all red text within the posts below are my personal emphasis.) 

Per Steve Nichols' post today:

Stephen  Moderator   Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,050

What's happening with Dungeon Runners? Sorry I haven't been posting on a regular basis. I've been deep in some crazy amount of work for DR that's taking ALL of my time. If you've ever worked many consecutive 16 hour days then you'll know what I'm talking about. It's like I get up, sit down at the computer, work like mad and then go to bed. I'm not complaining, but that's my reasoning for not posting more frequently. So, what is it that we're working on so hard? Well, the some details can't be shared until we've worked things out with management and decide that we can make them public. I expect to be able to announce our long-term plans for the game within the next month. There are many things that I can share, though. Here's a list of things that are on the way in the next build: 1. We've been working on a new website. It's nearly complete and allows you to play the game directly within your browser if you like. This also includes a better integration of the forums and a specialized support site. 2. We've got a new game launcher completed that is much lighter than the PlayNC launcher and is more integrated with the game. It's really nice.  3. We've been working on a new streaming download system for the game. This system will allow players to get into the game much more quickly with a minimum download. As you play, entering new zones, content is downloaded on demand. This will save us money on bandwidth and make it easier for you to play. No more "massive" patches to be applied. 4. We've implemented our Townston's Universally Recognized Dollars and added many things that can be purchased in the game with this new microtransaction system. I'll post a followup on this new feature within a few weeks to make clear how it's gonna work. 5. We've implemented shadows! The game looks so nice with shadows, I'm happy to say. They've already added specular lighting and bloom - shadows should be a nice addition! 6. Lot of new items have been added. 7. DirectX integration is much nicer now. The game properly detects the need to upgrade DirectX and sends you to a website to help you with the upgrade process. As you can see, this next build is mostly an infrastructure and billing system update. These changes are required for what's to come for the game -- but I still can't tell you about that yet. Expect more news to unfold over the next month! Thanks for your patience with the trickle of information.  steve __________________ "Don't try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it irritates the pig." -- Anthony DeMello http://www.idearunners.com http://www.onemanswisdom.info

Regarding his comments on the microtransaction system, here are some further comments he and Mark Tucker (Lead Designer) have made in regards to microtransactions:

12-18-2008, 06:01 PM

Stephen  Moderator   Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,050

... Quote: The game download is deterring people from playing the game? Are you serious? Dungeon Runners is one of the smallest quickest downloads and I am on a SLOWER DSL line. You know what would actually deter me from playing the game? If you make a 20 or some small meg download and then every time I go somewhere in the game it has to pause to dynamically download the area information. Let’s assume on a slow connection I want to enter a dungeon and then it takes 1 to 5 minutes from when I click to when I get to actually enter because it’s downloading? I would not simply uninstall the game my friend, no no… I would take my hard drive apart, isolate the area on the disc… nevermind…. It’s not worth it. But let’s suffice it to say that I wouldn’t even give the game a chance. I would uninstall it right away. Yes, many people are deterred by a 600MB download to try a game. You might be surprised to know that. We lose almost 30% of the folks that sign up for an account because they never complete the download. Quote: Not enough people are becoming members? I can really understand this being a problem. Not that many people play Dungeon Runners either. Unfortunately you the guys in control are actually at fault for this one. Yeah, that sounds harsh….but true. Here is what YOU did: Oh boy. Quote: You took away reasons to become a member in the hopes that this would cause more people to play dungeon runners. This is almost right. We made playing as a free player more attractive to give in-game advertising some value. We're slowly moving away from that. Quote: Yay, now anyone can find rainbows and purples. It used to be that if you were a non member you kind of sucked unless you really GULPED down potions. Maybe you guys don’t play the game to see it but people just trade member rb’s for non member rb’s and purples. Did you seriously believe that this change would accomplish more players and more subscriptions? Of course they trade. That's EXACTLY what we hoped for. The idea was to make playing as a free player bearable for advertising reasons. Quote: SOLUTION: Now you guys backed yourself into a sticky situation. If you change things back will people get pissed off and quit? Possibly some will... We have some solutions coming. Some I can speak to and some I can't. We have been turning up the heat on free players for a while now and will continue to do so. However, we always want free players to be viable. We don't want to make it so that free players are treated like crap or second-class citizens. Although, some envy of members is important. And, each time a free player sees an item they can't use, it nags at em.  Quote: Considering adding a cash shop for money? If you sell in game gear that negates the whole point of the game which is to go kill stuff and get the phat loot. I can guarantee four people which are good friends of mine which will all quit if this is implemented. We will definitely have a "cash shop". We call them microtransactions. At some point in the not-too-distant future, you will be able to purchase a currency called "Townston's Universally Recognized Dollars". You will be able to use these dollars to buy buffs (i.e. double xp, gold drops, loot drop %), remove soulbinding from items, remove membership requirements from items, purchase pets, 100 potion packs, gold vouchers and other vanity items. Each item will be in the form of a usable scroll or voucher in your inventory so that you can trade them to others if you like. This is the number one thing on my list for next year... and it represents a potentially HUGE upside for the game. This allows people to pay as they go for only the features they like. And, of course, they don't have to pay for anything if they don't want to. Quote: Conclusion: If something isn’t done before it is too late Dungeon Runners will most likely be shut down sometime in 2009. …. I and my friend that plays really don’t want this to happen. If the developers and or publishers would like to converse with people that really do have great ideas and will help them for FREE, drop me a line. This game isn't going away in 2009. If I could tell you more about what I know of the future for the game, I would. But, that info will have to wait a bit longer. I have no doubts that the game will continue for years to come... steve

12-19-2008, 12:50 AM

Stephen  Moderator   Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,050

I really have no interest in arguing with anyone. It's late and quite a waste of effort. I can share some statistics on the game to help you understand a bit on where we're at and why we're making the decisions we're making: Since it's inception, Dungeon Runners has had about 600,000 accounts created. Some 30% of those never created a character. Of those 600k, only about 300k are in the US. The rest are spread out over the EU and "rest of world". 600k is a very small number. There are still plenty of folks to reach out to. We have roughly 35k unique users a month... with anywhere between 10k to 17k unique players a week. Our max concurrency is about 600 -- and that peak is generally hit on Sunday. Today's max concurrency was 467. Average playtime is about 45 minutes. Dungeon Runners is a small game, but it has great potential IMHO. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be here working on it.  Keep in mind that DR has been an experimental product for NCsoft. We've been trying out new business models for the company and testing out some crazy ideas. About a year ago we were the first NCsoft game to try in-game advertising. Based on our research, and the initial performance of the ads, the revenue potential they presented seemed very good. To support ads we moved to more equity between free and paid players. In fact, early on, ad-watching players generated more revenue than paid players. So, the decision seemed to be valid. However, as time moves on, it's obvious to us that in-game advertising is pretty much dead at this point -- seemingly because advertisers are steering away from such "unproven" models. I can't really guess the reason, but the money coming from ads is junk. So, where does that leave us? Do we just revert to when all free players had no access to anything but blue items? That would be disastrous IMO. The ill-will generated by such a move would do great harm to the community. So, we're looking for other ways to generate revenue that doesn't include destroying the free game. Free players represent potential future customers. To alienate them is to cut off potential future revenue. The game is in a downward trend right now. The number of incoming players is dropping and there is uncertainty in the community about the future of the game. NCsoft has publicly stated that they are focusing only on the AAA games. Where does that leave us? I am not allowed to speak about that now. There are things in the works that have the team very excited... but I can't say a word yet.  Yet, keep this in mind: NCsoft recently announced the plan to shutdown Tabula Rasa at the end of February. Don't you think that announcing the same for DR would be easy to do? Why wait? The reason is clear... NCsoft is not shutting the game down. It's just not happening. Why, on Earth, would we consider microtransactions? Because they make for a much better business model. Having such a system in place allows hardcore players to spend more on the game... while allowing casual players to pay a little at a time without a $5 monthly commitment. We could discuss, at length, the examples of microtransaction systems and their performance. But, from where I'm sitting, it makes a great deal of sense. I really don't understand the anger behind the idea of a cash shop. When I look over the complaints posted here, they have to do with: Gold Spammers - Having a cash shop doesn't mean that you can trade gold. Trading gold isn't in the cards. As long as I'm in charge of this game, there will be no gold trading. The closest thing you will see is the ability to buy a gold voucher from the cash shop and trade it. Once used, the gold voucher will turn into untradeable gold. Having to buy items from the shop - You won't have to. The things for sale will improve your experience but they will never be necessary. Players will want them, but they will never be forced to buy anything. You will still need to play the game to get loot and XP. A good example of a buyable item would be the bling gnome... or perhaps a character emote... or special costume. Lots of potential for fun optional items that will make the game better. About the dynamic download... you will have the option to download the full game. However, the dynamic download will make getting into the game a 5 minute affair instead of hours for some. Our target audience is the casual game player without interest in downloading a game for two hours. We have to capture their interest quickly. A fat download just doesn't cut it in that market. Finally, the angry spew coming from some on this thread makes me want to close the thread or pull out my ban hammer. I hope that folks can relax, take a breath, and discuss things rationally. The one thing this development team is is open-minded. We will take into account any complaint or point of view. We're happy to admit when we're wrong and make adjustments. Bashing us, however, is not the way to make a positive change. It just drives a wedge between us. I'll respect you as long as you respect me and others on the team and in the community. Please, let's try to be somewhat mature? steve Last edited by Stephen; 12-19-2008 at 12:56 AM.

12-19-2008, 01:23 AM

Stephen  Moderator   Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,050

I'd like to clarify: I never had sexual relations with that woman! Erm. Or was it that I wasn't drunk? Erm. Dang. Caught again! EvilSteve is my fighter alt. Hooray for alts! A final point on the advertising that I'd like to make. It seems that some people don't have all the information on why we're showing our own ads instead of paid ads. It's almost like these folks think we have some choice over this... let me make it clear: Double Fusion is the company that provides ads for Dungeon Runners. We have no ability to line up advertisers -- that's their job. We provide ads for our own games to fill the space when there are no paid ads. "Might as well advertise something rather than show nothing all day." we said to ourselves. It's an odd idea to me that folks might think that we pay ourselves to advertise in our own game. Nope, we don't pay a dime to advertise in DR. But, then again, nobody else does either.  I imagine a day coming soon when all in-game ads are tossed in the crapper and forgotten. steve

04-17-2008, 07:24 AM

MarkT  Moderator   Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 173

Re: NCsoft unveils new microtransaction system What do you think about options that might allow you to: increase the level of an existing item? Or removing the Soulbind on an item? How about buying gold or King's Coin? I don't think we would ever offer something to buy that you could not get by playing the game, the only exception to that is the Bling Gnome. So I don't ever foresee having exclusive items that can only be bought... that is pretty lame and can break the game, especially PvP. __________________ MarkT Lead Designer

So, that's the latest news on Dungeon Runners.  It's not going away, they're changing the infrastructure in order to make it easier to get into and play, especially for new players and they're changing the revenue model to one that has potential to be more profitable.

~Ripper

dungeon runners ftw!

I'm not gonna lie, I like how NCSoft is so straight up and honest with their playerbase, but on the other side of the coin, I just don't like item malls that allow you to buy gold. I've tried DR about a year ago, and the lack of skills you get was really kick in the gut. However, I don't know what all they've done to beef up the character customization since then.

 I don't think it's NCSoft being honest, so much as it's Stephen Nichols and the Dungeon Runners team being honest.   They've always been incredibly open, as much as they're allowed to be, with their own little community.

In regards to Dungeon  Runners, in general, a lot has changed from a year ago, but the core concepts are still the same.  It's a relatively simple, tongue-in-cheek Diabloesque hack-n-slash game - great for casual play.  It's never been intended as a primay, full-featured MMO.  It is what is is - a fun time waster.

As for skills and character customization:

• Customization during character creation process - pretty remedial.  Basically, you pick skin for your character (hair style, color and face).  After you gain a few levles, none of this will matter, because you'll be wearing armor.
• "Class selection" - frankly, I think this confuses a lot of people.  When you first create your character, you select one of three classes: Fighter, Mage or Ranger.  To most new players, this seems pretty limited, but what most new players don't know is that the only reason you pick a class is to give your character a starting template for a build.  Dungeon Runners never locks you into a class or skill tree.  Any character can use any item and any combination of skills and there are definitely more items and skills than there were a year ago.  As an example, the character I'm currently playing is JazzHands.  I started JazzHands as a mage and played her pretty much as a straight mage for at least 30 levels, after which I molded her into a hybrid fighter/mage.  I've linked her dynamic profile above, but since that changes, here's a snapshot of her current build:
• Please note, the character viewers only show base stats, not skill-modified stats.  For example, check out my in-game health, mana and attack rating vs. what's shown in the viewer: 
• As you can see, my stats are affected dramatically by the skills I've chosen, which include a mix of both fighter and mage skills.  Also, this build is very, very effective, which proves that hybrid builds aren't always gimped.
• Players can respec at will, which allows them to redistribute their attriubte points.  Additionally, players can slot/unslot any skills at will.

Regarding buying gold, I saw this concern pop up on the official boards, too.  Here's my take on it:

02-27-2009, 12:56 PM

Ripper_McGee  Dungeon Walker   Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Utah Posts: 3,236

Quote: Originally Posted by MarshalVaako  ...But trading cash directly for gold without ever entering a dungeon is to much imho. I can see people just buying an enormous amount of gold and buying every single skill there is in about five minutes not to mention the best gear the merchants sell.... Why would this bother you? It doesn't give these players any undo advantage, except as a matter of convenience. They can't buy "every single skill there is in about five minutes", because all skills have minimum entry levels. As such, at most, they could pay for all the skills available for their level. Even that doesn't give any advantage, because you can only slot so many skills at any given time and the skills you use are part of a build that includes point allocation and gear, not just skills. It's not like a WoW type game where they'd have 4 skill bars up with every possible skill that could be used. In regards to buying gear from merchants, why is that an issue? Players hardly buy from any merchant other than the Amazon and she's going away in the near future. None of the other merchants (except Rainbow Sally, a rare dungeon spawn who's inventory doesn't reset) sell rainbows, which are the items people really want to buy. As such, with the exception of Rainbow Sally, players would be limited to buying purples and lower. Also, just like skills, the items would be level limited (unless you paid additional money for a scroll to change the level). As such, there really aren't any advantages in this scenario, either. So, if the only benefit a player gets from buying gold is convenience, not actual advantages in gameplay over or against other players, then what's the problem? It doesn't affect you or other players and doesn't imbalance the game towards the microtransaction customers. __________________ DR widgets! My DR ideas! /twitch ™

Also, please keep in mind that gold cannot be traded in Dungeon Runners.  Steve Nichols, the lead developer and producer, has stated many times, on both the boards and in-game, that as long has he's in charge of Dungeon Runners, he will never allow gold to be traded from one character to another. 

I definitely agree with concerns about some games that give cash shop players gameplay advantages over non-cash shp customers, but that's why I gathered all of these links from the developers.  It was an attempt to show that they understand those concerns and are commited to providing a fun, fair experience for all.

Unfortunately, I think Dungeon Runners, as a whole, suffers from a number of problems, some related to design, some related to player perception.  I'm considering creating some guides on the loot, "class" and other systems and asking for them to be stickied, but especially those two, since they seem to be major points of contention.

~Ripper

The DR devs have done a great job of evolving the game (within the constraints of a casual MMO), IMO. I've been on-and-off DR since it launched, and I see myself spending more time with it recently, due to the changes in gameplay.

I like what they have planned for the download system, which is something I loved with Guild Wars (no big patch downloads!). Not sure how the "play in browser" feature will work; I would at least like to log in and do some stash management.

Of course the most appealing new feature (for me at least, but I'm sure most casual players who earn a bit of dough would feel the same) is the "cash shop". $5 a month is cheap, but there's still a level of commitment attached to it.

Anyways, can't wait for the next chunk!

Seems like some good changes IMO. Ive played Dr off and on for about 2 years, its a great way to burn time when your bored with EvE, CoH etc. I dont have any issues with item malls, mainly because if you look, more and more games are going this route because people dont want to pay 15$ a month just for access. most would rather spend what they want getting something they desire. In atlantica which i play alot right now, over half of the players I come accross spend and avg of 30 to 50 a month on item mall. That generates alot of revenue for them. I can see DR continue to grow and add alot more content due to this style of system.

Good read overall, Thanks OP!

It seems like the new version has hit the test servers today (July 9th).

I find this very exciting because I think this is a great little game. It's hillarious, lighthearted and has increadable pacing. Sure, it's got about as much depth as a kiddie pool, but to me that's exaclty what is attractive about it. 

Yay?  I was looking for another depthless mmo.

I think you missed the point. This isn't a depthless MMO by accident...it's more by design. It parodies the genra so well that it's an absolute blast.

I guess the best analogy i can make is that it's like a Ramones song: so dumb it ends up being pure genious.