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Originally posted by checkthis500

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Originally posted by cheshyrecat

 might i suggest that if EvE or UO are more to your likeing that you play them.  with the other 1337 d00dz.

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I take offense at this. to lump EVE players with "1337 d00dz."    That's absurd.  Most of these "1337 d00dz" don't even make it through the tutorial before they're whining about something.  Not to mention these "hardcore" players are usually the ones bitching about their ship getting blown up.  :p 

(Don't take any of this as a flame or anything by the way. :p) It's just that the PvP in EVE is so well maintained and policed it's damn near perfect. :)

EDIT: To graill: yes that was one of the best posts I've ever read as well. :)

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Originally posted by havocthefirs

Is there a point to pvp without full looting, the simple awnser is no.

Theres no excitement without looting, how can there be?

Even games like wow in mo the worst of all games, why? Epic gear no looting or housing/ poor crafting.

In the end everyone has epic gear and then no gear is epic so why not loot.

Without looting crafting becomes irrelevant since I lose nothing I need nothing.

If I cant bandage in combat and can only drink 1 pot at most again irrelevant.

Can mmorpg's break free from carebearitis, alas only UO in its heyday pre aos managed it.

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But do you really want to work for hours to get a great item, or pay lots of gold for something, only to get ganked and have it taken away? Who would spend lots of money on nice equip if they are all in fear of soon losing it? Who would run instances or do long quests when the rewards could be taken by anyone at any time? Player Equipment looting from PVP has the potential to ruin a game. People losing artifcats/epic items to pvp looting might go as far as cancelling their account, people get extremely upset. And it affects different classes disproportionately, such as melee classes being hurt worse from the item loss than caster classes. I suppose if done very well (such as decent items being relatively cheap/quick to replace) it could be exciting and fun. But these type of games have very powerful, very hard to get items, so people would bank all of them before PVP, and equip rusty daggers and patchwork armor, so you'd only get crap for loot, and all melee types would be gimp using crap weapons, so everyone would make a caster for PVP and then, what the hell is the point?

They tried full item looting in UO, and one item looting in EQ, ask the players of those games how they like it, how it changes things. Yeah that warrior running around naked afraid of PVP item loss will be a great tank for the group.

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Originally posted by Zeknichov
Like I said and I'll say it again.  There is no point to PvP if you can't force your opponent into submission somehow.  Full looting is one method and I can't think of any others off hand.  If you can't beat your opponent into submission then PvP is nothing more than a zerg fest.  WoW is the best example.  fight, die, run to corpse, fight die, zerg zerg zerg kekekekekekekekkekekeke. 

Full looting works but then the game must be catered to it.  No items that take a month to get.  NONE.  All items must be very easy to get and balanced so that dying a few times or even dying 20 times hardly hurts you but when you keep dying and dying over and over you eventually have to stop dying or lose everything.

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played UO for almost 5yrs, eve for 3.  Messed with the other mmos in that time L1 L2 SWG WoW RF GW etc....

Both games with looting on fallen enemies was great.  I thought UO hit it best but Eve has a great system to that makes sense for their type of game play with ships being destroyed.  My opinion is when you make items mean not as much as your char build and game style it leads to overall better PvP in the game.  The be killed and save everything only helps the more carebear group and as soon as a game is labeled that, the farmers start rolling in.  In the first 5yrs of UO how many "farmers" were there before they got crazy with the upgrades?

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Originally posted by Zeknichov
Like I said and I'll say it again.  There is no point to PvP if you can't force your opponent into submission somehow.  Full looting is one method and I can't think of any others off hand.  If you can't beat your opponent into submission then PvP is nothing more than a zerg fest.  WoW is the best example.  fight, die, run to corpse, fight die, zerg zerg zerg kekekekekekekekkekekeke. 

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For as much as I loathe the thought of full looting in PvP, I will have to say that this is a valid point. There's only so much you can do to force your opponent into submission. In DAOC, having the resurrection sickness was somewhat effective (especially since it stacked if I remember correctly), making your combat abilities less and less effective after dying. In WoW it didn't exist at all...which added to the futility of the PvP system. 

It seems like there has to be another way to achieve this type of effect. If only I knew what that might be.

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Originally posted by callmetoby

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Originally posted by Zeknichov
Like I said and I'll say it again.  There is no point to PvP if you can't force your opponent into submission somehow.  Full looting is one method and I can't think of any others off hand.  If you can't beat your opponent into submission then PvP is nothing more than a zerg fest.  WoW is the best example.  fight, die, run to corpse, fight die, zerg zerg zerg kekekekekekekekkekekeke. 

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For as much as I loathe the thought of full looting in PvP, I will have to say that this is a valid point. There's only so much you can do to force your opponent into submission. In DAOC, having the resurrection sickness was somewhat effective (especially since it stacked if I remember correctly), making your combat abilities less and less effective after dying. In WoW it didn't exist at all...which added to the futility of the PvP system. 

It seems like there has to be another way to achieve this type of effect. If only I knew what that might be.

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Actually, in DAOC on the PvP server Mordred they came up with this to an extent.  They started making players drop gold when they died, for the victor to loot.   Meanwhile, the loser had to buy back a small portion of his constitution that he lost for dying  (at level 50 this was like, 3 or 4 gold).  The effect stacked, so if you died too many times, you'd find your constitution way down (making you even easier to kill) and forced to blow 25 gold to buy it back.  It put a pressure on you not to die...at least until game inflation made amounts of gold like 3 or 4 meaningless to most players.

But implemented correctly (I think it should have been a bit higher) a system like this could work add a reward/punishment factor to the pvp w/o totally devestating a player like the loss of his major gear would.

Well, I personally like PvP but I don't like the idea of looting.

Then again I like PvP for the sake of PvP. I don't need a trophy nor do I need to inconvenience the other player.

Quite frankly, I question whether or not there is a huge market for this type of pvp anymore.

Though it might be interesting if game makers had a hardcore server for those players who like this type of play. I would be curious to see real data on this.

But other than that, there are players out there who like pvp for it's own sake.

Also, using the word carebear is akin to using the term "poopy pants". It's about that level of discourse. No rational person is going to sit there calling people carebear.

I mean, what the heck, are gamers operating in grade school?

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Originally posted by callmetoby

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Originally posted by Zeknichov
Like I said and I'll say it again.  There is no point to PvP if you can't force your opponent into submission somehow.  Full looting is one method and I can't think of any others off hand.  If you can't beat your opponent into submission then PvP is nothing more than a zerg fest.  WoW is the best example.  fight, die, run to corpse, fight die, zerg zerg zerg kekekekekekekekkekekeke. 

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For as much as I loathe the thought of full looting in PvP, I will have to say that this is a valid point. There's only so much you can do to force your opponent into submission. In DAOC, having the resurrection sickness was somewhat effective (especially since it stacked if I remember correctly), making your combat abilities less and less effective after dying. In WoW it didn't exist at all...which added to the futility of the PvP system. 

It seems like there has to be another way to achieve this type of effect. If only I knew what that might be.

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Originally posted by Sovrath

Also, using the word carebear is akin to using the term "poopy pants". It's about that level of discourse. No rational person is going to sit there calling people carebear.

I mean, what the heck, are gamers operating in grade school?

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Originally posted by Zeknichov
Like I said and I'll say it again.  There is no point to PvP if you can't force your opponent into submission somehow.  Full looting is one method and I can't think of any others off hand.  If you can't beat your opponent into submission then PvP is nothing more than a zerg fest.  WoW is the best example.  fight, die, run to corpse, fight die, zerg zerg zerg kekekekekekekekkekekeke. 

Full looting works but then the game must be catered to it.  No items that take a month to get.  NONE.  All items must be very easy to get and balanced so that dying a few times or even dying 20 times hardly hurts you but when you keep dying and dying over and over you eventually have to stop dying or lose everything.

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Originally posted by mjkittredge
Carebear, it's been around too long, and has come to represent PVE favoring people,

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No it hasn't, stop lying. In this very thread it's used to refer to 'anyone who is not completely in favor of full-loot PVP', and it's usually used to refer to 'people who like something other than the exact type of PVP that I do'. It not only sounds retarded, but using it is just plain dumb, and one of the best signs that you should not be taken seriously.

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Originally posted by Pantastic

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Originally posted by mjkittredge
Carebear, it's been around too long, and has come to represent PVE favoring people,

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No it hasn't, stop lying. In this very thread it's used to refer to 'anyone who is not completely in favor of full-loot PVP', and it's usually used to refer to 'people who like something other than the exact type of PVP that I do'. It not only sounds retarded, but using it is just plain dumb, and one of the best signs that you should not be taken seriously.

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Originally posted by graill

what a narrow, self serving, IGNORANT view, you, OP, have on mmorpg's. i will make this pithy. the labels in mmorpg's are created  by emotionals, not the same fringe sub culture that have no idea which way is up or who they are but the emotionals in mmorpg's that constantly rant about "i dont like this, i dont like that". you OP are an mmorpg EMO.

before you lift a typing finger do some research, never miss that chance to shut your mouth, realize that there are other folks playing the game besides yourself. you are clueless in that YOU feel your view (or any of your fellow emo's) is the only one that should be addressed. if you feel your being stereotyped, you are, you are part of a tiny subculture that believes games should be created and manged for them, exclusively.

this is the skinny, games are created to make money, not cater to you. until bill gates gets into mmorpgs and puts you OP, as head of the dev team, you wont get what you want. games cater to the majority, not carebears, not killers, not malcontents (you) but the majority that will pay a monthly fee because they can progress in a game and enjoy it.

continue to search for that mmorpg that has everything you want, guess what, its not out there and never will be. if for some reason some game maker creates a game where you can kill at will, loot, with no consequences (because consequences as implemented would cramp your style) it would indeed be a true "fringe" game and have a low pop. dont give examples of ANY current game out there now, it doesnt exist.

the recreational killing you seem to want, to satisfy your emotional needs would go something like this: no consequences for killing. no safe areas. unlimited looting, and or theft. kill anytime, any number of times. camp the corpse. freely kill other killers questing. destroy any and all buildings, structures around or in your way. exploit killing as you see fit. kill your friends anytime, your guildmembers, your race.

in retrospect i really hope a game like that does come along, then it can take you "leet, hardcore gamers" as you self promote yourselves and put you into one cesspit.

 

Adapt or die

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   I see, my view is narrow and ignorant yet yours is somehow brilliant and all-encompassing. If I dissagree or dont like something apparently I dont even know which way is up, while if you dont like full looting your view is the correct and only view.

   My opinions must be silenced for the clueless fool I am so that your genius can illuminate us all. Even the meer expression of my view must be eradicated lest others see it and perhaps might want to try it.

   Games are created to make money. Since every survey done states that 1/3 of gamers want full looting, my tiny subculture is a huge untapped market waiting to be filled.

   If you can loot that is a consequence, pvp without looting is killing with no conseqeunce. The two mmorpgs with looting are EVE and UO, both the highest rated games on the market. In fact if you take away the grafix and sound ratings UO stands head and shoulders above the rest, that is the game I'm presently playing.

   With looting there is no corpse camping, if you wait at a looted corpse it'll be a very long wait. There is no zerging because thats as good as throwing you stuff away, first to die is first to lose their stuff. You can kill your friends/guildmembers or burn buildings regaurdless of looting, your point seems to escape me.

   The only "leet hardcore gaming" is done where there is no looting. Your given an instance and zerg your way thru a predetermined mob. In essence your being spoon-fed items and you cant possibly lose, you are guarunteed a reward with no risk.

   The flaw with todays generation of gamers extends to real life, back in the late 80s early 90s I taught karate for ten years. In the beggining degrees were earned, at the end parents complained and then at three month intervals everyone was kicked up a notch. When I was in school you were given a grade like an 84, now when the kids come home with a report card they have an o,s,r,t and I wonder what the hell am I looking at. Its the old no one gets left behind policy.

   Everyone wants something new in mmorpgs but the truth is they want what their taught in rl, the world on a platter. Grinding (work) is too hard make it easier. He has a better weapon than me, make a quest (buy it) for me. She called me a bad name I'm gonna call a gm (tell mommy).

   Life is full of risks, sometimes you fail sometimes you succeed. I want the same thing in a game, a chance to fail or succeed. If I can never lose anything in a game, then I can never fail or win. Soon failure and success have the same meaning, none at all.

   When this game comes out and everyone cries that its a wow clone, dont complain because thats what you asked for. Heres your noobie area where you can easily level up, walk ten steps south and level further. Crush flower in bottle and make a pot, no need to think because its being done for you.

Isnt there some hardcore forums you guys can all congregate and do your hardcore mass whining together?

You already know why there isnt full looting. Its been discussed at least a hundred times.
But please by all means, keep up the crying, whining, PRE TRAMMEL Ultima good old days discussion going.

Hardcore 1337 crai harder than anyone.

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Originally posted by havocthefirs

  The flaw with todays generation of gamers extends to real life, back in the late 80s early 90s I taught karate for ten years. In the beggining degrees were earned, at the end parents complained and then at three month intervals everyone was kicked up a notch. When I was in school you were given a grade like an 84, now when the kids come home with a report card they have an o,s,r,t and I wonder what the hell am I looking at. Its the old no one gets left behind policy.

   Everyone wants something new in mmorpgs but the truth is they want what their taught in rl, the world on a platter. Grinding (work) is too hard make it easier. He has a better weapon than me, make a quest (buy it) for me. She called me a bad name I'm gonna call a gm (tell mommy).

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Originally posted by havocthefirs

 

  

   Games are created to make money. Since every survey done states that 1/3 of gamers want full looting, my tiny subculture is a huge untapped market waiting to be filled.

   If you can loot that is a consequence, pvp without looting is killing with no conseqeunce. The two mmorpgs with looting are EVE and UO, both the highest rated games on the market. In fact if you take away the grafix and sound ratings UO stands head and shoulders above the rest, that is the game I'm presently playing.

  

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alright, if you want us to beleive your 1/3rd #, link us 'every survey done', and THEN link us the surveys that accurately point out the #'s of people who will NOT play a game with full looting, and then we can talk on a # basis, if you want to start now, i'll bring up the "800lbs gorilla" of the  MMO market WoW, which conveniatly lacks both your idea of PvP, and the lack of #'s UO+EVE have... hmmm >_>

though i don't enjoy WoW, if you want to talk about #'s, you have to throw it out there as being successful, it's made more $ then any game with full PvP looting, and without any viable sources being produced by you sying there realling IS a market that enjoys full looting (which is larger then the one the game will leave if they put in this feature) then you're beat.

doesn't matter how high the ratings are bud, doesn't matter how many editorials rave, or how many people brand a game a carebear game, the game is still on top.

...sigh