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21 posts found
  EliasThorne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 332

 
OP  12/29/05 11:01:34 AM#1

What do you guys think?

Personally I think it'll be Good vs Evil vs Chaos as it keeps the three army theme that worked so well for them in DAoC - all three can be relatively easily separated off each with a good depth of history.

If you choose other put forward your thoughts...

How do you think the RvR will be handled?

Human vs Human (Empire vs Brettonian etc..)
"Good" races (humans, elves, dwarves) vs "Dark" races (orks, ogres etc) vs Chaos
Other...
(login to vote)

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  L0k1-

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/04
Posts: 240

12/29/05 11:12:36 AM#2

euhmm i'm a newb about warhammer, what is the big difference between evil and chaos? :)

  EliasThorne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 332

 
OP  12/29/05 11:31:39 AM#3

Well I "evil" races tend to be not so much evil as barbaric (think of the orks etc from Lord of the rings), where as chaos are tainted followers of th evarious chaos gods and as such are deformed with disease and mutations - generally very strange and also nasty in their own ways..

You could check this out or for preffernce seek out lore from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

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  EliasThorne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 332

 
OP  12/29/05 12:15:56 PM#4

A mate of mine just sent this over and it may help a little...

Humans are the defaults, the jack of all trades races, with the capacity for great good and great evil.
Elves are graceful, luminous beings tied closely to nature
Dwarves, sturdy craftsmen living in vast cities carved out of the living stone of the mountains
Halflings are hobbits, rascals and scoundrels who love a good meal or a good crime.

Dark elves are corsairs, pirates, cruel, twisted sadistic reflections of their cousins.

The orcs/goblins are barbarous and vile, raping, pillaging and eating each other. Think of sentient pack of feral dogs…
Hobgoblins are like Gengis Khan’s mongol hordes.
Orges and Giants are lumbering brutes.

The skaven are ratmen, insidious, scheming creatures undermining human culture from beneath, with a love of pestilence and disease.
And then there is chaos, which twists everything; so humans become beastmen, mutants…

Chaos is either drawn in from elsewhere in the form of demons (not a warhammer lore expert!) or were once other races that have been effected.

EDIT: Adjusted the order to bunch similar groups together.

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  EliasThorne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 332

 
OP  12/29/05 12:27:00 PM#5

I only just found out about Warhammer Alliance (cheers for th poster - sorry I forgot your name!)

What playable races will there be in Warhammer Online?
The playable races that will be represented in the game are Humans (Empire), High Elves, Dwarves, Dark Elves, Chaos, Orcs and Goblins. With the potential of more races to be added later in development or with expansion packs.

What alliances are there between races?
Several of the races have made pacts together and indeed their alliances have grown as has their power. For example the Orcs and Goblins are allied to make up the Greenskin Realm. Other races have allied as well to form their own realms.

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  Wertbag

Novice Member

Joined: 12/28/05
Posts: 9

12/29/05 5:27:09 PM#6

Story wise due to alliances it would be possible to make it good vs evil, Dark elves don't attack Orcs as they don't want a war when they are concentrating on destroying mankind.  The good races generally don't attack each other (enough to worry about with Chaos, undead, green skins and skaven trying to kill you) unless they have a class vs class style encounter (brigand vs merchant, inquisitor vs necromancer etc).  But Chaos really does stand apart, the only reason they haven't taken over the world is due to their infighting.  I could see a chaos lord ordering his followers to help the other evil races, story wise just point out their hatred of mankind outweighs their desire to kill each other.

Hard to say whether they'll go good vs evil, or good vs evil vs chaos.

  Anofalye

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7445

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

12/29/05 6:25:37 PM#7

Errr...

 

LAW (Empire)

GOOD (elfs)

NEUTRAL (dorfs)

EVIL (orcs)

CHAOS (Beastmans and all that is nasty).

 

Brettonia is prolly GOOD, Dark Elfs are prolly EVIL, Lizard are prolly Neutral...but the dorfs are allies with the Empire while the lizzy...Skaven are a different Chaos faction on their own(other chaos may ignore them but certainly not ally them).

 

I don't mind if not all 5 factions are playable, but I would mind if it was not divided this way (I hope some Chaos are playable as well as Good and Law because those are the ones I want to play hehe).

 

The High Elfs and the Empire could certainly clash from time to time and should not be set in a permanent unbrokable alliance, although they are likely to team temporarily.

 

Chaos should fight Chaos, there should be Chaos Player faction and a computer chaos faction as well.  I can't see Chaos bearing anything at all beside Chaos...and not even all other Chaos...Khorne and Slaanesh are KoS to each other.  Khorne see no differences between humans or Slaanesh troops, all deserve to die.

 

Brettonia is extremely unlikely to field against Chaos, it is possible, but why bother, the Empire is doing it pretty well and they can focus on others issues.  Maybe the answer to this is:  Each PvP zones could be PvP only to some faction, at the border between the Empire and Brettonia, I can't see Chaos been PvP enable there, they can't make it that far past the Empire.  Maybe every faction have some "hotpoints" where they are PvP enable.   So you only have 2 or 3 factions in every zone, never the full amount of them.  Maybe you can allow a group to have a guest for PvP from other faction (Evil could have a Chaos guest, as long as it remain exceptions and not for every fight, like everyone can be a guest once per 3 months and if you have a guest of a particuliar faction, there is a very long downtime before you can have again a guest from the same faction).

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  EliasThorne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 332

 
OP  12/30/05 3:50:21 AM#8
L0k1, in addition to what is written here I strongly advise you check this thread too as it fleshes out the races and units very well.

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  OrigigiNomad

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/05
Posts: 91

One for all and all for one

12/30/05 6:17:45 AM#9

Dwarves are not neutral in sense of good/evil, they're definately good but they don't care about others. They would help the Empire as someone said they're allied with them, but it's questionable if they would help others. But I guess that qualifies them as neutral after all. What a useless post.


  LordDowney

Novice Member

Joined: 12/29/05
Posts: 3

12/30/05 6:31:26 AM#10

I think it would be a more open form of warfare, with allegiances being made as per warhammer rules,

I.e, dwarfs can ally with humans but not with skaven, etc

what i would like to see is all chaos battles going on. The Lords of Tzeentch against the fat bloke Nurgle, superb. Or even Khorne against Slaneesh

http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/

 

  Nalaeph

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/05
Posts: 37

12/30/05 9:09:51 AM#11

As long as they don't make it a boring 1 vs. 1 sort of thing (like Horde vs. Alliance in wow if you like) everything's fine with me. I loved the intrigues in DAoC when 2 realms decided to (indirectly) team up for a short while to hit an otherwise overwhealming enemy! ;)

  EliasThorne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 332

 
OP  12/30/05 9:15:23 AM#12

This should help, its a quote from Mark Jacobs CEO of Mythic.

The game will be RvR-centric, focused on the ongoing battles between three separate groups (more information on these groups down the road).

Get more very very useful info here.

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  Anofalye

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7445

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

12/30/05 9:47:45 AM#13
I really hope GOOD and LAW won't be in the same faction!    Put more Computer controlled factions if you need, but well...I really don't like to see the Elfs and the Empire in the same faction.  And I also hope to see CHAOS as playable.    Dunno for other folks and all.

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  EliasThorne

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/04
Posts: 332

 
OP  12/30/05 9:57:08 AM#14

Considering that there are three realms they would have to bunch law in with good otherwise you'd have to go with a five realm system.
Also seperating law would leave them with only high elves from the playable classes at launch, and after that not that much (I vaugly remember one of the forgotten gods but I can't remeber which) and witch hunters/inquisitors.

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  Vervayne

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/31/05
Posts: 18

12/31/05 1:15:35 PM#15

This will be a 3 realm setup, and as such, whatever races are in a realm together will be allies, and will fight against races in the other 2 realms.
Races will not fight among themselves or with other races in their realm.
That's how the RvR concept works.

  Anofalye

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7445

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

1/01/06 11:48:55 PM#16

Originally posted by Vervayne

This will be a 3 realm setup, and as such, whatever races are in a realm together will be allies, and will fight against races in the other 2 realms.
Races will not fight among themselves or with other races in their realm.
That's how the RvR concept works.


They need to reconsider the RvR concept.  Warhammer is more than 3 factions.  Either put many restricted to some, or divided every of the 3 faction so they have internal conflicts.

 

The franchise should overule what RvR is prior it adaptation.  Chaos can fight Chaos.  This is in the core of what Warhammer is.  Laws and Good are certainly going to clash against each others from time to time.  Warhammer need to reflect that.  You can limit all the players to only 1 Chaos God and put computer controlled faction who fight them with other Chaos Gods, that could work, but it NEED to be present and FAR more concerning than only a random few instanced.  If you follow Tzenth, you should be at least as much concern with Khorne/Nurgle than with everything else in the world, those Khorne/Nurgle bastards are much troubles for anyone following Tzenth...MORE troubles than any other faction.

 

RvR rules have to be adapted to Warhammer, putting a RvR system you enjoy is something, but it HAS TO RESPECT the franchise rather than some other concepts.  Chaos fight Chaos.  Empire and High Elfs clash with each other sporadically.  Orcs and Skavens are going to kill each others.  If you do RvR, do it right.  Single PvP rules should vary from realms to realms...Khorne should pretty much be open PvP, where you can attack folks grouped with you...while the High Elfs would never consider fighting other High Elfs...

 

Anyway, this is just my opinion and I am not that much a fan of warhammer (I am more a fan of the MMOs than of Warhammer, but I am still a fan of Warhammer to a good extend)...but I would be a little sad if this basic rule of Warhammer would not be respected.  Chaos kill Chaos.  Chaos better be open (partially maybe) to players if you focus on RvR, it would be sad to see all Chaos as NPCs...players want to play Chaos...badly...any of the 4 major Gods or even another like Malal...but something.  Maybe Malal or whatever else respect an alliance with another race (skavens?)...but well...

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  Scott762x51

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 42

First come smiles, then lies, last is Gunfire.

1/02/06 4:02:51 AM#17

I agree with Anofalye!!!  Warhammer needs around 7 factions.  Heres my take on it.

1.  Empire (Humans, Dwarves, Wood Elves, Halflings)

2.  Chaos

3.   Allegianceless Outcasts (i.e. Evil Career paths such as necromancers, evil wizards, undead, outlaws, assassins, etc.)

4.  Greenskins

5.  Skaven

6.  Dark Elves

7.  High Elves

If I were them and was bent on keeping it to three realms I would link them all in three major groups but would have them further segmented to realms within realms. 

1.  Good as the Empire and the Highelves but would have them separated and not having much to do with each other except when defending the good realm then they could work out an alliance between themselves.  But they should also be able to have fights with each other within their realm which would add another level to the game where you could have feuds and hatreds that would prevent alliances that would help the realm as a whole. 

2.  Chaos where they would constantly kill each other unless they had a better enemy to go after.  They would be linked with no one since they are such a huge realm all by themselves.  They have plenty of factions as is that would be separated into mini-realms just like in the good realm.  (Khorne, Slanesh, Tzentch, and Nurgle all having mini-realms for themselves)

3.  Skaven, Greenskins, and Dark Elves each separated respectively.  Though in the warhammer world Skaven would never ally with either Dark Elves or Greenskins but if the game has to be changes somewhat, let it be this way.

I left out the Allegienceless group because they dont really fit into a faction and should be incorporated into all realms and none.  They should fill the in-between spaces of the world that arent claimed by any faction.  They should be part of the world that the other realms fight to gain control of but are never able to take all of it and when they are no longer actively holding the part they have taken, it goes back to being part of the in-between neutral area.  Characters who belong to this realm can play their roles as theives and outlaws to those who venture into their realm trying to claim it for their own realm.  Necromances and evil wizards or vampires can raise armies of skeletons or demons to destroy outposts or towns built by the invaders to reclaim thier land.  And, like all the other realms, when there isnt a greater enemy to fight  (or even if there is)  they can kill each other to pass the time.  They sound like a separate realm but there are no leaders, Kings, Gods, or Laws they hold to.  But consequently there are no huge cities with fortifications to defend either just wilderness with the occasional small town or ruined haunted castle.  Other factions can build on the territory once they conquer it but are constantly attacked by creatures and players of the neutral realm or members of other realms trying to take it for themselves.

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  ScottElwood

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/05
Posts: 202

1/02/06 4:11:10 AM#18

This is a really tricky topic and we'll see how Mythic can pull it off, but allegiances between races don't nessesarially have to be between those who are good and those who are evil.

The main background of Warhammer keeps all races at a free-for-all so to say, and allegiances happen when two races want to accomplish the same goal. The game is made this way so that if you want to have a 2v2 battle, having a chaos alliance with an empire army isn't nessesarially unaccomplishable.

From the backstory that Mythic has provided to us so far, we can assume that there wont be an allegiance between the Orcs & Goblins and Empire (read the backstory here). But don't expect the most obvious allegiances to be true.


Mythic will probably release 3 realms at the release of W.A.R, seeing as it's what they did with DAoC, and it is a solid number to start with. That leaves us with 6 races to place into each of the three realms.

The only problem is that 3 of the races seem like a "good" race, and three of them seem like an "evil" race. This then is hard to seperate into 3 realms, because one of them will have to be a convergance of one "good" and one "evil" race.

Someone suggested that it might be a Good vs Evil vs Chaos seperation. This could work, but then the Chaos realm might be very outnumbered, seeing as though the realm only holds one race.

To me, the most logical seperation would be:

Realm A:
Empire and Dwarves

Realm B:
Orcs & Goblins and High Elves

Realm C:
Chaos and Dark Elves

I based this off of the backstory that Mythic has given, and the world maps that most Warhammer players assume to be the general area that armies are located in.

Refer to this map for all of the diplomacy I note. The original map can be found here.

In Mythics story, the Empire mercenaries are stuck in a mountain, trapped by Orcs & Goblins who have taken up camp near the bottom. In the area that the mercenaries should be has a high population of dwarves that reside in those mountains. I wouldn't be surprised if they made a story to have both of them try to supress the Orcs from moving foreward. (Note the mountains east of the empire, where the dwarves reside)

One other thing about dwarves, they used to hold much land, but were driven out of most of it when "evil" races were spreading their diplomacy. It would be hard to see them allied with anyone who isn't "good", and because of that fact is why I placed them with the Empire.

Chaos And Dark Elves are placed together because their borders are close, and they both have a twisted sense to themselves. They, to me, fit together well and could logically be allied.

The reason why I put the Orcs & Goblins and High Elves together is because, well basically they were the two that were left. Orcs usually only fight when they feel a need to or have an over-population issue, so placing them with Chaos probably wouldn't work. High Elves on the other hand have had a long and hard civil war with Dark Elves, so when the Dark Elves allied with Chaos, that could have led the High Elves to worry, then make an arrangement with the Orcs & Goblins for more protection in case the Dark Elves had any reason to cause a threat.

So thats my opinion on this topic. Congrats to anyone who read it all!

--It took me a while to write so sorry if someone made something clear before I posted it

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  Anofalye

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/03
Posts: 7445

The enemy is so dumb! They believe that WE are the enemy! - A famous orc commander.

1/02/06 10:36:14 AM#19

Still,

 

There is a HEAVY needs for internal conflicts if you drop that to 3 factions.  Call it a mini RvR system inside the big RvR scheme if you want and limit it and make it secondary, fine, but it need to be there...practice land if you want...but Khorne should be allowed to attack anyone except maybe Nurgle!  And even then, Khorne followers need open PvP area where individuals PvP is open against anyone present.

 

I doesn't mind that much of Chaos and Evil are part of the same bigger faction, as long as they carnage each other on a lower level from time to time.  Anyway I rather see Chaos walk with orcs than with an enemy Chaos faction.

 

As for Empire and Chaos alliance...those would be extremely trivials and subject to open embrasing at any moment, in fact they would prolly attack each other despite been allies.

 

A strong RvR setting where you can't fight your allies is artificial, maybe in some zone, but need to fight them in others!  Even if no reasons to do so at start and only for the fun and practice...can figure a goal later maybe, or maybe never...but it need to be there, if only for the feeling!

 

Elfs and Orcs?  I doesn't believe that would work!  Elfs cavalry would not stop for orcs infantry and just pass throught, killing many of them.  Put the orcs with Chaos even not very friendly, the elfs can ally with lizards, other elfs or something...the orcs?  Doesn't believe the alliance can stand long...the elfs would just mindlessly kill the orcs at every turn when they can. 

 

Reducing this to 3 factions is going to make many unhappy fans, especially if they are alliances where you can't attack the others at least in a few "practices" areas.

 

Chaos and DEs can work...but...they would still clash with each other...Chaos would not stop because they are "allies".  Chaos doesn't follow a rule of alliance...they would still attack their allies.  However the DEs are matures enough to withstand those attacks and still be "allies" and only have "skirmishes" with Chaos (which can be viewed as full open war between the two by Bretonnia standards).

 

Empires and Dwarfs are allies, this work well.  I doesnt see much clash between the two at all.

 

Brettonia would prolly be allies with the Elfs or the Empire...more likely to be with the Elfs.  But both can work.

- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - René Levesque about the denial NO on the poll to his dream, project and goal. (Free translation)

  ScottElwood

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/05
Posts: 202

1/02/06 12:16:55 PM#20

That is all true, but remember they have said that there will be 6 playable races at the initial launch (Empire, High Elves, Dwarves, Orcs & Goblins, Dark Elves, Chaos).

With a RvR system they have two choices. The first is to split the races into either 3 realms of two races each, or the second being a free-for-all battle.

The FFA can work, and would make very logical sense, but it can get easily complicated. An additional problem is that if races are split into a FFA, it would separate the community into 6 different sides. This wouldn't be smart at the launch of a game because it would make an unpopular races community seem rather desolate.

Mark Jacobs has stated he has more people working on W.A.R then they did on DAoC, which could make it easier to program these tough challenges, but I don't think that is the way they will be working.

I know pairing some races together seems illogical, but if you look at the Warhammer background, it can make sense.

If the Dark Elves ally with Chaos, and Dark Elves are at war with High Elves, while Chaos are at war with Orcs & Goblins, it would seem smart for the two latter armies to ally -- My enemy’s enemy is my friend.

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