Originally posted by //\\//\\oo

Originally posted by Obamaonics

 

Surprised??  That coming from a guy that's played another one of the most borish and mundane mmo's available, aside from the Asian grinders, WoW for 1100 hours?

 

You are either on crack, missing a chromosome or a combination of the 2.

 

 I don't think he's missing any, but that you're just blessed with an extra one.

 

 

Well, thanks (i think)

 So, has anything changed in the game now that Mark is gone?

Originally posted by Astralglide

 So, has anything changed in the game now that Mark is gone?

It's difficult to know what to attribute to Jacobs himself (other than his sometimes bizarre rants at the playerbase) or his successor but the recent patch was a mostly positive one for WAR. There was a big increase in performance, both server side and client side which has been most welcome. They removed Forts from the Tier 4 campaign, allowing more City sieges to occur, although people have reported that locking a city is bugged and there has been general dissatisfaction with the siege itself. They also set all new characters to start in Empire vs Chaos to make it easier to find others.

It seems to me that the game is heading in the right direction, but it's not there yet imo. There are population issues, the RvR zones could stand to be more interesting among other things.

Problem is, what WAR needs to work is a lot of people online around the day on any given server. For that to happen, it would need a lot of people giving it a chance, another chance.

Since there wont be thousands of people logging in and trying out the game again at the same time, all returns and newcomers will just be a trickle, realizing nobody is there, and leave again.

WAR is probably the one MMO that absolutely CANNOT cope with lack of population, but its the one that loses subs the fastest.

Not the best patches can change that, because they will not get large numbers of people playing suddenly.

Originally posted by Khaunshar

Problem is, what WAR needs to work is a lot of people online around the day on any given server. For that to happen, it would need a lot of people giving it a chance, another chance.

Since there wont be thousands of people logging in and trying out the game again at the same time, all returns and newcomers will just be a trickle, realizing nobody is there, and leave again.

WAR is probably the one MMO that absolutely CANNOT cope with lack of population, but its the one that loses subs the fastest.

Not the best patches can change that, because they will not get large numbers of people playing suddenly.

Which is why I think they should go the "Fallen Earth" route and move everything to one massive server and just keep expanding that ONE server.

Originally posted by Astralglide

Which is why I think they should go the "Fallen Earth" route and move everything to one massive server and just keep expanding that ONE server.

If it is even technically possible, it's not a bad idea, but it would mean one account could only play order or destruction, not both.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by Astralglide

Which is why I think they should go the "Fallen Earth" route and move everything to one massive server and just keep expanding that ONE server.

 

If it is even technically possible, it's not a bad idea, but it would mean one account could only play order or destruction, not both.

Agreed and that sucks. But they need to fix their populations. Maybe have two servers and link their scenarios and force some balance to the game. This will definately piss some people off, but I think if they fixed their population problems people would give the game a chance again with these patches and content updates.

Originally posted by Teganx

Ha it may have failed in your book but the game is actually a huge seuccess. Its 2nd place on the MMO market and shows no signs of relenting. I usually a que on my server and I have never ever had trouble doing a PQ and The longest ive ever had to wait for a scenario is about a minute or two. And this ia all late at night.

Where on earth are you getting this numbers from??

Originally posted by hercules

Originally posted by Teganx

Ha it may have failed in your book but the game is actually a huge seuccess. Its 2nd place on the MMO market and shows no signs of relenting. I usually a que on my server and I have never ever had trouble doing a PQ and The longest ive ever had to wait for a scenario is about a minute or two. And this ia all late at night.

 

Where on earth are you getting this numbers from??

this was posted :  10/08/08
 

And yes, that was the only timeframe any sane person could have claimed the game didn't show signs of relenting. Before the free month ended ^^

I tried a trial verson and then bought the game, but I couldn't help but notice (maybe it just me) that the classes are basically copies of each other. I know the races had a nemesis kinda thing going on but did anyone else notice it?

If it already been I apologize. Just curious thats all. But I'm not going to continue playing it though, did enjoy the RvR and Public Quests.

Originally posted by Khaunshar

Problem is, what WAR needs to work is a lot of people online around the day on any given server. For that to happen, it would need a lot of people giving it a chance, another chance.

Since there wont be thousands of people logging in and trying out the game again at the same time, all returns and newcomers will just be a trickle, realizing nobody is there, and leave again.

WAR is probably the one MMO that absolutely CANNOT cope with lack of population, but its the one that loses subs the fastest.

Not the best patches can change that, because they will not get large numbers of people playing suddenly.

Maybe not a complete fix but implementing sross server scenarios would go long ways of taking away the "nobody is around" syndrome.

That way scenarios would pop all the time atleast.

O-RvR population problems is a tougher problem to solve but one way would be to introduce new zones where guilds can fight it out for castles and resources and as such you could have fights even with small numbers around, if you are part of an active guild.

Originally posted by VaultFairy

I tried a trial verson and then bought the game, but I couldn't help but notice (maybe it just me) that the classes are basically copies of each other. I know the races had a nemesis kinda thing going on but did anyone else notice it?

If it already been I apologize. Just curious thats all. But I'm not going to continue playing it though, did enjoy the RvR and Public Quests.

They were intended to be vague copies of each other (with the exceptions of the pet classes), but they didn't realize that with PvP so key an element of the game, that the sides must be functionally identical to be truly balanced.

They claimed that balance was determined on a realm level, not by mirrors - which is ridiculous, since you have no way of enforcing equal class representation in battle. Having a Bright Wizard ability matched by a Marauder ability is worthless when one side has 5 BW, and the other has 1 Mara.

Originally posted by VaultFairy

I tried a trial verson and then bought the game, but I couldn't help but notice (maybe it just me) that the classes are basically copies of each other. I know the races had a nemesis kinda thing going on but did anyone else notice it?

If it already been I apologize. Just curious thats all. But I'm not going to continue playing it though, did enjoy the RvR and Public Quests.

Classes are basically copies of each other yes but not to the same extent as in games like Aion. Atleast there are some differences between say an Archmage and a Shaman and quite significant differences between a Squig Herder and a White Lion, not to mention the Ironbreaker and Black Guard.. 

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by VaultFairy

I tried a trial verson and then bought the game, but I couldn't help but notice (maybe it just me) that the classes are basically copies of each other. I know the races had a nemesis kinda thing going on but did anyone else notice it?

If it already been I apologize. Just curious thats all. But I'm not going to continue playing it though, did enjoy the RvR and Public Quests.

They were intended to be vague copies of each other (with the exceptions of the pet classes), but they didn't realize that with PvP so key an element of the game, that the sides must be functionally identical to be truly balanced.

That is a boring way to solve the balancing problem. It is possible to balance two sides with different classes, it just takes alot more effort than just simply copying them (like Aion). The replay value goes way up with having two different sides than having identical sides.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by VaultFairy

I tried a trial verson and then bought the game, but I couldn't help but notice (maybe it just me) that the classes are basically copies of each other. I know the races had a nemesis kinda thing going on but did anyone else notice it?

If it already been I apologize. Just curious thats all. But I'm not going to continue playing it though, did enjoy the RvR and Public Quests.

 

Classes are basically copies of each other yes but not to the same extent as in games like Aion. Atleast there are some differences between say an Archmage and a Shaman and quite significant differences between a Squig Herder and a White Lion, not to mention the Ironbreaker and Black Guard.. 

It makes sense that there are enormous differences between the Squig Herder and the White Lion since they are not mirror classes.  The White Lion's counterpart is the marauder while the Squig Herder's counterpart is the Shadow Warrior.  The fact that one side of each pair is a pet class means nothing...If you take a look at the proper pairings, they are indeed very similar with minor nuances.

Originally posted by Yamota 

That is a boring way to solve the balancing problem. It is possible to balance two sides with different classes, it just takes alot more effort than just simply copying them (like Aion). The replay value goes way up with having two different sides than having identical sides.

That is the standard complaint about standard classes on both sides, but PvP balance is more than difficult enough without setting yourself an impossible task (which I claim and you dispute).

12 classes is more than ample for a PvP-oriented game.

Originally posted by htiger23

 

It makes sense that there are enormous differences between the Squig Herder and the White Lion since they are not mirror classes.  The White Lion's counterpart is the marauder while the Squig Herder's counterpart is the Shadow Warrior.  The fact that one side of each pair is a pet class means nothing...If you take a look at the proper pairings, they are indeed very similar with minor nuances.

Good luck EVER balancing a pet class with a non-pet class, and Mythic tried it twice. Some absolutely baffling design choices in the game.

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by htiger23

 

It makes sense that there are enormous differences between the Squig Herder and the White Lion since they are not mirror classes.  The White Lion's counterpart is the marauder while the Squig Herder's counterpart is the Shadow Warrior.  The fact that one side of each pair is a pet class means nothing...If you take a look at the proper pairings, they are indeed very similar with minor nuances.

Good luck EVER balancing a pet class with a non-pet class, and Mythic tried it twice. Some absolutely baffling design choices in the game.

I completely agree with you.  It is quite difficult to manage the damage/life of pets while keeping a class balanced.  I just wanted to point out that White Lions are not the counterpart of Squig Herders.  I am still baffled at the sheer number of people who believe that 2 classes having a pet must mean they are related classes.

Originally posted by htiger23

I completely agree with you.  It is quite difficult to manage the damage/life of pets while keeping a class balanced.  I just wanted to point out that White Lions are not the counterpart of Squig Herders.  I am still baffled at the sheer number of people who believe that 2 classes having a pet must mean they are related classes.

Well, frankly, that shows that the average player has more insight into the issue than Mythic's devs. It makes sense that the only two pet classes would be mirrors of each other.

Originally posted by htiger23

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by VaultFairy

I tried a trial verson and then bought the game, but I couldn't help but notice (maybe it just me) that the classes are basically copies of each other. I know the races had a nemesis kinda thing going on but did anyone else notice it?

If it already been I apologize. Just curious thats all. But I'm not going to continue playing it though, did enjoy the RvR and Public Quests.

 

Classes are basically copies of each other yes but not to the same extent as in games like Aion. Atleast there are some differences between say an Archmage and a Shaman and quite significant differences between a Squig Herder and a White Lion, not to mention the Ironbreaker and Black Guard.. 

 

It makes sense that there are enormous differences between the Squig Herder and the White Lion since they are not mirror classes.  The White Lion's counterpart is the marauder while the Squig Herder's counterpart is the Shadow Warrior.  The fact that one side of each pair is a pet class means nothing...If you take a look at the proper pairings, they are indeed very similar with minor nuances.

If Shadow Warrior is the counterpart of Squig Herder then the differences are even greater as one is primarily a pet class where as the other is not.

Squig Herder has a whole set of powers exclusively for his pet, where as the Shadow Warrior does not have that but instead has close range skills that the squig herder lacks.

Originally posted by htiger23

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by htiger23

 

It makes sense that there are enormous differences between the Squig Herder and the White Lion since they are not mirror classes.  The White Lion's counterpart is the marauder while the Squig Herder's counterpart is the Shadow Warrior.  The fact that one side of each pair is a pet class means nothing...If you take a look at the proper pairings, they are indeed very similar with minor nuances.

Good luck EVER balancing a pet class with a non-pet class, and Mythic tried it twice. Some absolutely baffling design choices in the game.

 

I completely agree with you.  It is quite difficult to manage the damage/life of pets while keeping a class balanced.  I just wanted to point out that White Lions are not the counterpart of Squig Herders.  I am still baffled at the sheer number of people who believe that 2 classes having a pet must mean they are related classes.

White Lions are more similar to Squig Herders than he is to a Maruader. Class dynamics between pet classes are so different to non-pet classes that they cannot possibly be each others counterpart.

If Mythic indeed tried to balance it that way then they are in for a big fail. It is not possibly to mirror one class with an AI mob to one without. It is like trying to mirror a ranged class to a melee combat class.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by htiger23

Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

Originally posted by htiger23

 

It makes sense that there are enormous differences between the Squig Herder and the White Lion since they are not mirror classes.  The White Lion's counterpart is the marauder while the Squig Herder's counterpart is the Shadow Warrior.  The fact that one side of each pair is a pet class means nothing...If you take a look at the proper pairings, they are indeed very similar with minor nuances.

Good luck EVER balancing a pet class with a non-pet class, and Mythic tried it twice. Some absolutely baffling design choices in the game.

 

I completely agree with you.  It is quite difficult to manage the damage/life of pets while keeping a class balanced.  I just wanted to point out that White Lions are not the counterpart of Squig Herders.  I am still baffled at the sheer number of people who believe that 2 classes having a pet must mean they are related classes.

White Lions are more similar to Squig Herders than he is to a Maruader. Class dynamics between pet classes are so different to non-pet classes that they cannot possibly be each others counterpart.

If Mythic indeed tried to balance it that way then they are in for a big fail. It is not possibly to mirror one class with an AI mob to one without. It is like trying to mirror a ranged class to a melee combat class.

I really hated the "Class Mirroring" thing. I was hoping that Destruction and ORder would have classes that were more unique to their factions. There has to be a way to balance classes without reskinning the ones you already have.

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Originally posted by Astralglide
There has to be a way to balance classes without reskinning the ones you already have.

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No. That would only work for a strategy, where any particular unit (or squad) is expendable. Players are happy as long as they have viable strategies and suitable units for every task.
 
MMOs are different. You have only one unit under your control - your own character. In RvR it might be a part of something bigger, but nobody cares. Win/loss ratio becomes irrelevant. Even if both realms are perfectly balanced and win/loss for large scale battles is 50/50, people still whine. Because mainstream crowd ALWAYS whines.

And if the other side happens to have different classes, people whine even more than usual. The only escape from this "greener grass" trap is to give both sides the same classes.

Originally posted by wowfan1996

 

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And if the other side happens to have different classes, people whine even more than usual. The only escape from this "greener grass" trap is to give both sides the same classes.

Quoted for truthiness.

Mythic made the worst of the situation by partially mirroring the classes - thus creating the expectation that they would be functionally identical.

@ Yamota:

Mythic themselves have stated that White Lion and Marauder are mirrors, as Squig Herder and Shadow Warrior are. Remarkable, but true.

In my opinion Mythic made a game that screams for equal classes on both sides. The whole game's basic premise is a 'Tug of War'. There's nothing more uninteresting than an unequal tug of war.