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WAR (Warhammer Online) Forum » General Discussion raquo; Warhammer; Can it do it all right?
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First off, I am an old school MMO Vet, EQ, EQII, AO, SWG, CoH/CoV and of course, WoW.
Of these my favorite is WoW for now, but before you flame I will explain why in a moment. Each of the others had thier good and bad, with a few *cough cough SWG cough cough* exceptions they had more good then bad. DAoC had the BEST PvP system, still does, because the PvP had a point, you actually CARED about the fight, you had real animosity aside "Their ugly" or "Alliance players are smarter" or whatever the weak cause in WoW most players seem to cite. But the Leveling, was BORING. I eventually quit DAoC for that reason. WoW is king for one real reason, the ease of use factor. ANYONE can play the game. The UI is moddable, the controls are fluid, the layout makes sense, running quests is not only intuitve, but easy, and crafting can be alot of fun. Also leveling is worth while, it's fun to go from 1-60. I've been playing since launch, and I cannot tell your how much fun my wife and I have, flaws and all leveling, it's after 60 that it breaks down and becomes a grind for gear. That's where WAR has the biggest challenge. Can they make the levleing fun, the interface intuitive, the crafting worth the time, and most of all, the PvP (or of course, in this case, RvR) worth while? Alot of what Blizz got right with WoW was removing the annoyance of the older MMO's. Death hurt you in time, nothing more. See EQI, CoV/CoH for ways to annoy people with death. I think aside the interface, WoW's other biggest contribution to the MMO Genre were the AH and the in game mail system. If Mythic can bring all that has come before it, put it into a system that feels "right and fun" it will be the WoW Killer many of us are praying for. I have made it clear, that launch day for WAR is the day my WoW ends. I hope I don't have to eat my words. Always change your signature. |
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12/06/06 6:53:07 PM#2
However, it made capping out mean something. In DAoC or EQ if you "sucked" you would never hit cap level. In WoW it is only a matter of time. I personally, like the way the old systems weeded out all the sucky players. By the same token it increased the maturity level. In WoW, I've had people get pissed and kill off groups before. It is a bit different in games where that would mean losing possiblity hours of play time. If someone said their 8 year old got lvl 60 in WoW I would hardly doubt them. But in EQ or DAoC, I don't think there is anyway you could get me to believe you. I'm not saying leveling was "fun" but when I did cap out I felt great and excited. WoW left me unfullfilled in that reguard. Kinda like playing an RTS with godmode turned on. You can still get to the end of the game, but unless you stop playing their is no way you aren't going to make it. So, I'll end saying, "Death pens in PvP hurt, nothing more. But death pes in PvE force players to improve and assures players reach certain compentacy before end game." I don't see that as a bad thing. However, that said I HIGHLY doubt WAR will have death pes any stricter than WoW. Simply because mythic likely hopes to grab WoW players, and they can't do that if they make the game seem "excesively" hard. |
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VideoXPG
 Novice Member
Joined: 1/13/06
"Human stupidity knows no bounds" ~Albert Einstein |
12/06/06 7:03:12 PM#3
I think for a game like WAR, a death penalty like that of DoaC is perfect for the type of game WAR is setting out to be.
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12/06/06 8:52:05 PM#4
That right there tells me I'll be quite glad if WAR doesn't make the game like those other games you're discussing. I play games to have fun while playing them, not to have a few minutes of fun after days or weeks or /played time. |
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12/06/06 11:10:45 PM#5
It was enjoyable... and when you died frusterating... and when you died two more times after that very frusterating... but then when you dinged and locked in your level it was a good feeling. And dying wasn't a common thing. If you died more then 3 times a level you we joining bad groups or playing too recklessly. The same as almost every other game. You play an RTS "hold out for 20mins mission" 3 times in a row you die at 5mins left. You've just died and lost 15mins each of thoses times and will have to replay the begining of that mission again. Same thing in DAoC you died you lose time that has to be replayed. It is frusterating, but when you do win... Take a look at the death pens in the top ranked games. Clearly have a sig death pen isn't an obsurb idea, based on the rankings. |
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That's just it Bent, you see you THINK the maturity level was great back then, it really wasn't.
I lost countless bubbles of EXP in EQI when people would get pissed off, or stupid.... and kill off the group becaus they were mad. The maturity level is the same, it's the sheer number of people, same precentage, bigger pool. The biggest problem I always had with the tougher penalites was the "X" factor, things beyond your control. That made it "not" fun. I don't want anger and frustration, I am 30 now, I have a job, mouths to feed, I cannot dedicate 2000 hours a month to a game. (exaggeration but you know what I mean). And that's where WoW beat the socks off everyone else, and why I think Vanguard is gonna flop... Peopel want to have fun, not another job. I think Warhammer si gonna be fun. I really cannot wait for it. Always change your signature. |
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12/07/06 11:09:14 AM#7
Yeah, heaven forbid you do anything risky in a fantasy game! Obviously, forming groups with an exact mix of characters and spending hours repeating challenge-free fights is the height of excitement. Fights with a 100% chance of success repeated over and over and over again are exactly what I want to spend my free time doing! |
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There are acceptable risks, I don't mind takign them, I don't mind losing sometimes (Like running LBRS in WoW with my 54 priest as the lone healer in a five man run... loads of fun) It's the COST of said death that I think turns people off. Corpse runs in EQ... loss of EXP... UHG. City of Heroes and the ever annoying Debt, seriously if it weren't for the debt issue, I bet my wife and I woudl still have active accounts. Always change your signature. |
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12/07/06 12:47:23 PM#9
Maturity, whether it is the same or not across games... People on average will act more mature in games that PUNISH them for acting immature. Just like shoplifting is less common in places where if you are caught you get your hand cut off. That said it is absurd to think the maturity level is the same across all MMOs or even across decades (EQ 90s WoW=00s)... That could only be the case if all demographics were the same across every MMO - and they aren't. _____________ Risky - Accompanied by or involving risk or danger; hazardous. I never got near to using the word risk...Reckless is attacking another mob when you just fought one and are at 10% health/energy. Or if in a group pressing the attack while your healers are OOE. You judge risk. Reckless is when you act without reguard for risk. ______________ So thanks for telling what I "THINK" and for what I wasn't trying to say. |
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The LEVEL of immature players always seems to be the same, reguardless of what game I play. DAoC, AO, WoW, EQ I or II. It's there. In a smaller gamebase like say EQ was compared to WoW, those losers that made fools of themselves were easier to spot. WoW you see the same ones less often, because of the huge user base. I disagree that you lose immature players when you make a game "really hard core". What you get is frustrated players finding ways to make the game fun, by ruining life for others. That balances out the lame kids that make 60 as hunters in WoW and never use a pet and haress everyone. I think the tolerance for stupid players goes up whent eh damage they can do is less, when you are all ready feeling like you are doing a second job leveling in a game (As I from time to time felt EQ was. And if the leaks from Vanguard are any indication) the ability to tolerate others goes down. See where I am comming from? Personally, I await eagerly WAR cause I think they will be the MMO That makes the biggest splash Always change your signature. |
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12/07/06 2:55:37 PM#11
Heh, this is kinda getting off topic. Anyways, I liked wows fluidy, but it was to simple. After WoW people will make more fluid mmo's that are easy to control, but not necesarly easier mmo's. I liked Cov/h death system. Made me think about taking on bigger mobs, after playing WoW and heading back to CoV, I was suprised by how many times i died. So far, I like Mythics death system. Making players do pve quests to reduce insanity.The interface looks fairly simpple which is good,the storyline and type of quests such as burning the beard of tree's, or getting a drunken goblin out of a tavern sounds like pve leveling will be fun and you can also level in pvp.Crafting is still to far in the development stage to determine anything, but if they deliver the kind of system they say they will then it will be funner than most mmo crafting systems.Now after reading about war, not sure how you can sk about the RVR. It sounds good, but we can't judge on looks alone right? Mythic has made one mmo, but a good one mmo with many expansions. I'f they can run this long with one mmo, I'm sure WAR will be fine.
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12/07/06 3:16:50 PM#12
Personally, I don't see the difference between CoH's ExpDebt and WoW's Equipment Penility. I think the only reason people really chose WoW of CoH was outdoor quests and quicker leveling. I couldn't stand the leveling in WoW though, you got nothing for it but a few measily stat points and then you had to buy your new abilities and equipment.
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12/07/06 3:34:18 PM#13
The downtime was the difference, graveyards are usually near towns and all that, if your doing well with silver you can quickly repair your stuff while in coh, you have to waste more of you time trying to burn your dept.
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12/07/06 5:35:13 PM#14
you mean, for you, spending a couple silver is the same as levelling at half speed for xx time, up to a whole level? to me they seems completely different, the first is a minor annoyance, the second is frustrating, especially the higher level you go. and while it is true that you have to buy abilities in wow, it feels much better there, where every 2 levels you can get several new spells/abilities while in coh you always get one meager power every 2 and later even every 3+ levels. "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime" |
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Speaking of CoH/CoV....
My wife and I LOVED the concept of the game. But, the EXP Debt drove us up the wall. When you wipe repeatedly ebcause of stupid people, and your bar is maxxed out on deep dark purple... that's annoying. And since the ONLY way to reduce that was to fight the same friggen mobs over, and over, and over again... Boring. Where as in WoW, hey, I need some Gold, I can go farm, I can craft, I can run some varied missions in a wide variety of places to earn some bling... the methods for dealing with Armor Repairs is varied, CoH... there is one way to do it, and only one. Besides, in WoW, if I need money, I can solo for it. In CoH... hehe, soloing to reduce debt isn't a goodway to go. Always change your signature. |
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12/08/06 12:38:45 PM#16
Ehh...the Death Penalty is a tricky problem. If it's too heavy then it makes the game unfun and irritating to play, although more "rewarding" in the end. If it's not heavy enough then it makes the game too easy and "only a matter of time." Everquest Had EXP loss and Corpse runs. Used to be a BIG problem when you could lose levels...imagine having to call off a raid because everyone in the raid lost a level and had to spend a day getting it back before the next raid. Thankfully they eventualy put a hard lower limit on EXP loss at the bottom of every level. WoW has Corpse runs and Repair costs. This Almost effectivly eliminated the death "penalty" and allows for everyone to hit the level cap with enough time. For WAR, i dunno...i kind of hope they come up with something new and unique. If they use the EQ XP loss, then that is either going to be Hell in an RvR oriented game(if it happens in both PvE and PvP) or it is going to be meaningless in a system that encorages people to level in PvP(If the Penalty only occurs in PvE). Whatever they do go with, i just hope that it doesn't encorage spawn zerging in PvP...ala WoW battlegrounds. |
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Well you nailed it to a point.
I think having "a matter of time" is good business sense in th long run as an approach to MMO Gaming. Some people don't have time, and if they feel that they lose more than they gain in XP... they bail. If they know they can eventually reach the cap, the pinnicle of level, they stick around, pay that next month of MMO Gaming Goodness.... Always change your signature. |
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12/08/06 3:06:36 PM#18
No, but you used a word that EVEN ACCORDING TO YOU means "when you act without reguard for risk." Thus, you were talking about risk whether you used the word "risk" itself or not.
Nope, you explicitly said "If you died more then 3 times a level you we joining bad groups or playing too recklessly." So if a person needed to fight, say, 99 fights to go up a level (which is pretty low by MMO standards) and he engaged in fights where the risk of dying was only 1/33 (ie your chance of winning is around 97%), that he's playing "too recklessly" by your standards since he's expect to die from 3 fights per level. For MMOs where you probably need 1000 fights to go up a level (more common that 99 I think), someome is 'too reckless' by your standards if they engage in a fight that has even a 99% chance of success. Thus, my criticism of your position is quite warranted - your claim is that someone is being too reckless if they engage in fights even if the chance of success is 95%! That, to me, is an incredibly boring game, where no one wants to take any risks because of the penalties. I do like that you on one hand give a figure that means you're reckless for engaging in a fight with only a 95% chance of success, then try to switch it up and pretend that you mean fights with virtually no chance of success, but your words are there for anyone to read.
I consider repeating challengeless fights to be very immature, like playing chess only against people who can't quite remember how knights move. Yet most games REWARD people for grinding on challengeless fights, thus games like EQ, DAOC, L2, and WOw encourage immature behavior like that! |
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12/08/06 4:01:33 PM#19
You seem like you have a lot of pent-up rage to get out Pantastic. In every single post you make, you're either attacking someonewho likes a game, or attacking someone making the game in question. I actually guessed what your last couple posts would be and was right. :) On to the topic at hand. I think Mythic are going to do well with the levelling as well as the challenging fights. I think group work is going to be the key to success. With the look of the skills so far it seems that the skills are going to work alongside other classes skills very well, but not necessarily easily. I think it's going to take some real thinking and ingenuity to be great at this game. I'm just looking forward to how they're going to do crafting, and to the next RvR video as well. It seems from the alpha footage that they have quite a bit of work to do to polish that beast into a useable state. I'm looking forward to hearing about more dungeons and PvE stuff as well. The RvR seems amazing, but everyone enjoys doing interesting quests and dungeon crawls occasionally. --------------------------------------------- |
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