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BioWare Mythic
MMORPG | Genre:Fantasy | Status:Cancelled  (est.rel 09/18/08)  | Pub:Electronic Arts
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78 posts found
  Ogrelin

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 640

MMORPG-Player - Since 1997!
GM of Svea Ulvar

4/09/13 10:29:45 AM#21


Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by jimdandy26

Originally posted by Betaguy

Originally posted by Dren_Utogi From what I played at launch and what I've just played now, they game seem a little better.   I'm curious from this community, do think it was Mark Jacobs failure as lead designer that crumbled the game ?
 Even as lead designer he still took orders from someone else over at EA/Mythic even if it strayed from his vision, he did not get final say. The suits have all the power.   In my opinion you are just trying to get a bunch of doomsayers to agree and flood these boards with yet another obsured belief. My wise advice, stop dealing in "What if's" and only deal in absolutes.
The suits traditionally do not hold "all the power". A lot is left up to the leads as they tend to know more about what is actually going on than anything. While I agree that Dren is taking this a bit overboard, this is indeed a fair question. Based on what I have seen I would put most of War's problems on Mj's head since at worst he is the one who holds all of the responsibility as lead.
The leads do more facilitation than coming up with all the ideas and implementing them.  That is a team of people. As a lead you are also pressured by suits more so as well. Suits: So.... MJ.... when will the PvP be done that is the last component... when can we get this out the door? MJ: Well I have this great idea on how PvP should work, but, it will delay the game by an extra 3 months. Suits: That is not going to work whatelse you got? MJ: Well I got the standard PvP that we discussed and the team came up with.  We can have that ready in 3 weeks.
That is not generally how its handled. While the suits will often set deadlines, and make demands for certain kinds of features its rarely that cut and dried, and they tend not to move the goal posts too much. That is sort of the leads job, setting the overall vision and keeping it on track. If the game sucks its because he screwed up somewhere.
 Lol, ain't nobody got time for you... I am done.  For the record I don't think it is that cut and dry but I didn't feel like writing a whole scripted story.  I felt any pleeb could grasp the point I was trying to make.
lol really? Pleeb? Seriously? It is the lead devs job to ship a workable product in the time provided. Yes, publishers can demand and have products shipped too early, yes they can demand that certain products have certain types of gameplay if they believe it will drastically increase sales, it still falls on the lead developer to make all of that work within the vision of the game, and they plan crunch time and side projects accordingly.

Trying to blame the Suits instead of the LEAD dev is pure foolishness.


A CIO for a company is responsible for how the company fares BUT There's so many things we don't know about in this case... we are all speculating imho.

Apple gave Steve Jobs a second chance, and we all know how that turned out :)

  kostoslav

Novice Member

Joined: 5/27/09
Posts: 467

4/09/13 10:45:22 AM#22
So he made 2 games with RvR as a main thing, and now he is making another one . Inovative guy :-)
  Amana

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 1/03/11
Posts: 2388

4/09/13 11:08:57 AM#23
Leaving this open for now, but OP, keep on the topic of Warhammer only. 

To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

  Ogrelin

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 640

MMORPG-Player - Since 1997!
GM of Svea Ulvar

4/09/13 11:09:52 AM#24


Originally posted by kostoslav
So he made 2 games with RvR as a main thing, and now he is making another one . Inovative guy :-)

I think he has 20ish games under his belt so far, having made two RvR games before CU may have given him some ideas on what type of mistakes he should avoid the 3rd time... Hopefully :)

  LeahXtwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/13
Posts: 39

4/09/13 11:11:57 AM#25
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

From what I played at launch and what I've just played now, they game seem a little better.

 

I'm curious from this community, do think it was Mark Jacobs failure as lead designer that crumbled the game ?

 

[mod edit - title changed]

RVR fouces lack of PVE fouces

 

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7755

Logic be damned!

4/09/13 11:18:06 AM#26

The game needed another year to bake in the oven.

Any game focused on PvP requires a healthy population to remain successful.

WAR had too many glitches, too much missing content, and not enough polish - so people left - lots of them.

WAR should have been the one "WoW-Killer" MMO that actually had a chance to compete with WoW - but EA/Mythic really dropped the ball.

If the game would have launched with:

1. All the classes

2. All the cities

3. Fully functional RvR and City Siege in all 4 tiers across all 3 pairings

4. Polish, polish, polish

5. Enough dungeons/raids at End-Game for PvE and PvPvE

We'd all be talking about the next new/awesome/fun content patch or major expansion for WAR right now...

Instead of analyzing why it sunk so quickly and all that was at fault.

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  sketocafe

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 611

4/09/13 11:18:40 AM#27

I thought it was the lack of a third faction coupled with only one capital city per faction. On an imbalanced server, which mine certainly was, they'd work their way to the city and then you could do fuck all with no place else to go. Also, while levelling through scenarios was fun, it got old real quick when there was only one per tier that people queued for. 

Apart from that, endgame at the start appeared to consist of keep trading and I took one look at that excitement and resubbed to wow.

I liked the actual combat with clipping for players and good positioning required, but it wasn't enough for me.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7266

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

4/09/13 11:20:27 AM#28
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

From what I played at launch and what I've just played now, they game seem a little better.

 

I'm curious from this community, do think it was Mark Jacobs failure as lead designer that crumbled the game ?

 Even as lead designer he still took orders from someone else over at EA/Mythic even if it strayed from his vision, he did not get final say. The suits have all the power.

 

In my opinion you are just trying to get a bunch of doomsayers to agree and flood these boards with yet another obsured belief.

My wise advice, stop dealing in "What if's" and only deal in absolutes.

The suits traditionally do not hold "all the power". A lot is left up to the leads as they tend to know more about what is actually going on than anything. While I agree that Dren is taking this a bit overboard, this is indeed a fair question. Based on what I have seen I would put most of War's problems on Mj's head since at worst he is the one who holds all of the responsibility as lead.

The leads do more facilitation than coming up with all the ideas and implementing them.  That is a team of people. As a lead you are also pressured by suits more so as well.

Suits: So.... MJ.... when will the PvP be done that is the last component... when can we get this out the door?

MJ: Well I have this great idea on how PvP should work, but, it will delay the game by an extra 3 months.

Suits: That is not going to work whatelse you got?

MJ: Well I got the standard PvP that we discussed and the team came up with.  We can have that ready in 3 weeks.

That is not generally how its handled. While the suits will often set deadlines, and make demands for certain kinds of features its rarely that cut and dried, and they tend not to move the goal posts too much. That is sort of the leads job, setting the overall vision and keeping it on track. If the game sucks its because he screwed up somewhere.

 Lol, ain't nobody got time for you... I am done.  For the record I don't think it is that cut and dry but I didn't feel like writing a whole scripted story.  I felt any pleeb could grasp the point I was trying to make.

lol really? Pleeb? Seriously? It is the lead devs job to ship a workable product in the time provided. Yes, publishers can demand and have products shipped too early, yes they can demand that certain products have certain types of gameplay if they believe it will drastically increase sales, it still falls on the lead developer to make all of that work within the vision of the game, and they plan crunch time and side projects accordingly.

Trying to blame the Suits instead of the LEAD dev is pure foolishness.

It could be foolish,  but when taking into account what WAR was, it was not the most terrible game to have launched.  I was there on launch, and remember playing scenarios back to back consistently, having a ball in the PQs and enjoying the RVR lakes in the early gameplay,  but as with most new games, the tier 3 and above content wasn't balanced properly and fairly unfinished.

 

There were other pieces of the game that were cut as well... and to believe that the Lead Developer was to blame for having to cut a large piece of content out for the game to ship on time is kind of pointless.  

 

Like it or not, even with a Kickstarter campaign, Mark Jacobs will try and fulfill his end of what he wants to accomplish, but when the money runs out, you have a choice to either go live with an incomplete game, start cutting out menial pieces that don't work, or consider scrapping the project (which, in any developers mind is the last thing they want to do). 

 

Considering we've seen a lot of games barely last a year or so, WAR is still running with much of the initial design still in place, so as far as a key vision goes, I think its been pretty successful.  How CU will do ... if you're not the risk taking type, take a wait and see approach.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  LeahXtwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/13
Posts: 39

4/09/13 11:22:01 AM#29
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

From what I played at launch and what I've just played now, they game seem a little better.

 

I'm curious from this community, do think it was Mark Jacobs failure as lead designer that crumbled the game ?

 Even as lead designer he still took orders from someone else over at EA/Mythic even if it strayed from his vision, he did not get final say. The suits have all the power.

 

In my opinion you are just trying to get a bunch of doomsayers to agree and flood these boards with yet another obsured belief.

My wise advice, stop dealing in "What if's" and only deal in absolutes.

The suits traditionally do not hold "all the power". A lot is left up to the leads as they tend to know more about what is actually going on than anything. While I agree that Dren is taking this a bit overboard, this is indeed a fair question. Based on what I have seen I would put most of War's problems on Mj's head since at worst he is the one who holds all of the responsibility as lead.

The leads do more facilitation than coming up with all the ideas and implementing them.  That is a team of people. As a lead you are also pressured by suits more so as well.

Suits: So.... MJ.... when will the PvP be done that is the last component... when can we get this out the door?

MJ: Well I have this great idea on how PvP should work, but, it will delay the game by an extra 3 months.

Suits: That is not going to work whatelse you got?

MJ: Well I got the standard PvP that we discussed and the team came up with.  We can have that ready in 3 weeks.

That is not generally how its handled. While the suits will often set deadlines, and make demands for certain kinds of features its rarely that cut and dried, and they tend not to move the goal posts too much. That is sort of the leads job, setting the overall vision and keeping it on track. If the game sucks its because he screwed up somewhere.

 Lol, ain't nobody got time for you... I am done.  For the record I don't think it is that cut and dry but I didn't feel like writing a whole scripted story.  I felt any pleeb could grasp the point I was trying to make.

lol really? Pleeb? Seriously? It is the lead devs job to ship a workable product in the time provided. Yes, publishers can demand and have products shipped too early, yes they can demand that certain products have certain types of gameplay if they believe it will drastically increase sales, it still falls on the lead developer to make all of that work within the vision of the game, and they plan crunch time and side projects accordingly.

Trying to blame the Suits instead of the LEAD dev is pure foolishness.

It could be foolish,  but when taking into account what WAR was, it was not the most terrible game to have launched.  I was there on launch, and remember playing scenarios back to back consistently, having a ball in the PQs and enjoying the RVR lakes in the early gameplay,  but as with most new games, the tier 3 and above content wasn't balanced properly and fairly unfinished.

 

There were other pieces of the game that were cut as well... and to believe that the Lead Developer was to blame for having to cut a large piece of content out for the game to ship on time is kind of pointless.  

 

Like it or not, even with a Kickstarter campaign, Mark Jacobs will try and fulfill his end of what he wants to accomplish, but when the money runs out, you have a choice to either go live with an incomplete game, start cutting out menial pieces that don't work, or consider scrapping the project (which, in any developers mind is the last thing they want to do). 

 

Considering we've seen a lot of games barely last a year or so, WAR is still running with much of the initial design still in place, so as far as a key vision goes, I think its been pretty successful.  How CU will do ... if you're not the risk taking type, take a wait and see approach.

WHAT?

 

  jmcdermottuk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 912

4/09/13 11:22:26 AM#30

I think the biggest problem was the Scenarios, their version of BG's, basically just copying WoW.  They'd have been better off just sticking to the RvR pools and Keep battles, which were quite fun when they took place. The other problem was putting loot on Keep Lords, big mistake! Players just flipped keeps instead of fighting over them, which was basic design fault.

 

You can also blame the class imbalance, Bright Wizards anyone? And the lack of a full complement of classes at release.

 

As for the PvE, yeah you could argue that it was a bit spare at the level cap but if they'd done the RvR properly, then I think people would have been busy with that. I think this argument is very true given that MJ is making a new MMO which is designed from the ground up for RvR with no PvE included.

  LeahXtwo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/13
Posts: 39

4/09/13 11:23:19 AM#31
Originally posted by LeahXtwo
Originally posted by maskedweasel
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

From what I played at launch and what I've just played now, they game seem a little better.

 

I'm curious from this community, do think it was Mark Jacobs failure as lead designer that crumbled the game ?

 Even as lead designer he still took orders from someone else over at EA/Mythic even if it strayed from his vision, he did not get final say. The suits have all the power.

 

In my opinion you are just trying to get a bunch of doomsayers to agree and flood these boards with yet another obsured belief.

My wise advice, stop dealing in "What if's" and only deal in absolutes.

The suits traditionally do not hold "all the power". A lot is left up to the leads as they tend to know more about what is actually going on than anything. While I agree that Dren is taking this a bit overboard, this is indeed a fair question. Based on what I have seen I would put most of War's problems on Mj's head since at worst he is the one who holds all of the responsibility as lead.

The leads do more facilitation than coming up with all the ideas and implementing them.  That is a team of people. As a lead you are also pressured by suits more so as well.

Suits: So.... MJ.... when will the PvP be done that is the last component... when can we get this out the door?

MJ: Well I have this great idea on how PvP should work, but, it will delay the game by an extra 3 months.

Suits: That is not going to work whatelse you got?

MJ: Well I got the standard PvP that we discussed and the team came up with.  We can have that ready in 3 weeks.

That is not generally how its handled. While the suits will often set deadlines, and make demands for certain kinds of features its rarely that cut and dried, and they tend not to move the goal posts too much. That is sort of the leads job, setting the overall vision and keeping it on track. If the game sucks its because he screwed up somewhere.

 Lol, ain't nobody got time for you... I am done.  For the record I don't think it is that cut and dry but I didn't feel like writing a whole scripted story.  I felt any pleeb could grasp the point I was trying to make.

lol really? Pleeb? Seriously? It is the lead devs job to ship a workable product in the time provided. Yes, publishers can demand and have products shipped too early, yes they can demand that certain products have certain types of gameplay if they believe it will drastically increase sales, it still falls on the lead developer to make all of that work within the vision of the game, and they plan crunch time and side projects accordingly.

Trying to blame the Suits instead of the LEAD dev is pure foolishness.

It could be foolish,  but when taking into account what WAR was, it was not the most terrible game to have launched.  I was there on launch, and remember playing scenarios back to back consistently, having a ball in the PQs and enjoying the RVR lakes in the early gameplay,  but as with most new games, the tier 3 and above content wasn't balanced properly and fairly unfinished.

 

There were other pieces of the game that were cut as well... and to believe that the Lead Developer was to blame for having to cut a large piece of content out for the game to ship on time is kind of pointless.  

 

Like it or not, even with a Kickstarter campaign, Mark Jacobs will try and fulfill his end of what he wants to accomplish, but when the money runs out, you have a choice to either go live with an incomplete game, start cutting out menial pieces that don't work, or consider scrapping the project (which, in any developers mind is the last thing they want to do). 

 

Considering we've seen a lot of games barely last a year or so, WAR is still running with much of the initial design still in place, so as far as a key vision goes, I think its been pretty successful.  How CU will do ... if you're not the risk taking type, take a wait and see approach.

WHAT?

 

Reason 1!

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7755

Logic be damned!

4/09/13 11:23:52 AM#32
Originally posted by LeahXtwo
Originally posted by maskedweasel

It could be foolish,  but when taking into account what WAR was, it was not the most terrible game to have launched.  I was there on launch, and remember playing scenarios back to back consistently, having a ball in the PQs and enjoying the RVR lakes in the early gameplay,  but as with most new games, the tier 3 and above content wasn't balanced properly and fairly unfinished.

WHAT?

He's right.

WAR was awesomely fun, at the time, in the early game at launch. So many people, all the PQs and RvR lakes and scenarios popping, great combat mechanics...

Just didn't have enough polish, and once you got high enough level the lack of polish and even completeness of content was SEVERLY lacking.

 

Now Playing: Destiny, WoW

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3754

RIP City of Heroes!

4/09/13 11:26:29 AM#33
Originally posted by jimdandy26
Originally posted by Betaguy
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

From what I played at launch and what I've just played now, they game seem a little better.

 

I'm curious from this community, do think it was Mark Jacobs failure as lead designer that crumbled the game ?

 Even as lead designer he still took orders from someone else over at EA/Mythic even if it strayed from his vision, he did not get final say. The suits have all the power.

 

In my opinion you are just trying to get a bunch of doomsayers to agree and flood these boards with yet another obsured belief.

My wise advice, stop dealing in "What if's" and only deal in absolutes.

The suits traditionally do not hold "all the power". A lot is left up to the leads as they tend to know more about what is actually going on than anything. While I agree that Dren is taking this a bit overboard, this is indeed a fair question. Based on what I have seen I would put most of War's problems on Mj's head since at worst he is the one who holds all of the responsibility as lead.

 Forget traditionally.  What do you know about this situation?  Do you have inside information?  If not, your traditionally comment doesn't apply.  BTW, many companies have top people who rule with a fist.  You may not have experienced it  but it happens.

This thread is flamebait.

  Dren_Utogi

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1468

 
OP  4/09/13 5:22:18 PM#34

Had class...

 

So I read through a lot of the posts since I got back , and it seems the 2 tthings that jump out at me are "time" and "polish" which go hand in hand.

 

I vaguely remember the launch of the game, but was the launch rushed because ofa Blizzard product ?

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  SwashBuccaneer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/10
Posts: 148

4/09/13 7:26:47 PM#35
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

Had class...

 

So I read through a lot of the posts since I got back , and it seems the 2 tthings that jump out at me are "time" and "polish" which go hand in hand.

 

I vaguely remember the launch of the game, but was the launch rushed because ofa Blizzard product ?

If I recall correctly, Blizzard actually rushed out one of their Expacs to beat WAR.  Think it was Lich King.

  Dren_Utogi

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/10
Posts: 1468

 
OP  4/10/13 10:47:03 AM#36
Originally posted by Lugoves
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

Had class...

 

So I read through a lot of the posts since I got back , and it seems the 2 tthings that jump out at me are "time" and "polish" which go hand in hand.

 

I vaguely remember the launch of the game, but was the launch rushed because ofa Blizzard product ?

If I recall correctly, Blizzard actually rushed out one of their Expacs to beat WAR.  Think it was Lich King.

This is what I was thinking, and EA had to rush there game out. What I would do  in a situatuion like that, postpone my game for a 6 months to a year until the Blizzard release loses it's steam and then launch the game.

 

Can never compete directly with Blizzard, you have to compete indirectly.

reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  Nergle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/01/07
Posts: 248

All other Warsites>Only-War

4/20/13 10:09:34 AM#37

What destroyed this game was the imbalancing issues of classes ( Healers were killing everyone in the game, also they   were tougher than tanks), even the mirrors.

There was no blance in scenarios with gear "RR 100 in with RR 60" just made the game un fun to people.

The PvE was lacking and the bugs /said exploiters started to become profound.

 

That's what killed this game.

  bugmeno

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/12
Posts: 87

4/20/13 10:19:59 AM#38
Originally posted by Dren_Utogi

do think it was Mark Jacobs failure as lead designer that crumbled the game ?

who else than the lead designer, I wonder?

 

I usually blame the SWTOR lead designer too for shortcomings in the game.

those guys are paid for, you know, "designing the game"

  Rocketeer

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/04
Posts: 1310

4/20/13 10:37:38 AM#39

If i remember correctly MJ was rushed by a year and cut off by a faction from EA. Besides i agree with people who say War wasn't a failure, i had fun for months in that game.

Problem is the game never got any polish after its launch, its like EA wanted it to fail. For example think of Age of Conan, damn the blasted game was broken. But funcom keept improving it, releasing an expansion and many many patches. Or Rift, that game was pretty ... shallow ... on release, but trion kept working on it, addressing issues(like small landmass) and releasing an expansion.

But warhammer? Damn that game never stood a chance. First released early, then nearly the entire team that worked on the game send off to a different project pretty much the day the game went final. Do i blame MJ? No. I could see the fun in the game, the man tried and the things he had the most time to work on like public quests and tier 1 where among the most fun i had in any MMO. The stuff that was a failure, like endgame and gameengine/class polish are EXACTLY the kind of things someone screws up if he doesn't have enough time.

Maybe its just a make belief story about how MJ was wronged by EA suits, but its a plausible one looking at how the game launched and what kind of support it got since then(not to mention the fate SWTOR had eerily mirrors this).

 

  nytemareh

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 164

4/20/13 10:40:44 AM#40
hmmmm......EA had nothing to do with ether game. Instead of laying the blame on one or the other how about a new concept. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. In other words the fault most likely lies in all those involved. However, Ea has not shown the best track record since becoming involved in mmos

<img src='http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0320200000031cd29/signature.png'></img>

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