PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download,Retail | Retail Price:$39.99 | Pay Type:Subscription
Desktop Client | System Req:
| ESRB:T
WAR: Behind the Career System - Part Two
In Part Two of his interview with Adam Gershowitz from EA Mythic on the subject of career design, Managing Editor Jon Wood discusses the issues of balance and how the company plans to keep 24 different careers running smoothly an faily against one another.
Greetings and welcome to part two of our interview with Adam Gershowitz, the Combat and Careers Strike Team Lead on EA Mythic’s highly anticipated upcoming MMORPG, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning.
In last week’s part one, we discussed the fact that Warhammer Online is taking a unique approach to class design for an MMORPG, choosing to create four unique classes (called careers) for each race rather than using a fixed set of classes that can be applied to multiple races. We also talked about the three major ideas behind EA Mythic’s career design.
Today, we’re going to expand beyond the ideas behind the design and look a little bit at the results of the design and what it takes to balance the game. To start with, I asked Gershowitz why EA Mythic decided to create race specific classes for their MMO.
“Things needed to scream WARHAMMER,” he answered, referencing one of the three ideas mentioned in part one. “And we were not going to give on that.”
He went on to say that while the structure of the classes in Warhammer may seem strange, they are actually designed from “a matrix of choices” created by looking at three specific elements:
- Race - How does it look? What do they feel like?
- Archetype - What is their role?
- Play Style - What mechanics will be needed for the class to work as intended?
“As a result,” he said, “you will always see similarities between two careers that share one or more of the 3 variables above. Careers of the same Race will always have similar visuals. While Careers that share Archetype and Mechanic may play very similar to one another.”
One of the benefits of designing this way allows the team to create more than twenty different classes without having 24 totally separate balancing issues. A good rule of thumb is that each career has an equivalent career on the opposing realm. For example, Order’s Warrior Priest functions similarly to the Disciple of Khaine on the Destruction side of things.
Gershowitz broke things down with percentages, explaining that while there are core similarities, the classes do remain at least in part totally unique:
“In reality,” he said, “about 60 - 75% of the game balance can be broken up into 12 Careers shared across 2 realms (24 total). While the remaining 25 – 30% of the unique items to a specific Career become easier to balance because they add the additional flavor to the career not the core balance.”
In terms of what this means for the game’s careers, it means that players will be given the choice between playing a more traditional style characters, filling the roles that we are accustomed to filling using the same play style that we are accustomed to using. For players who might want to venture out of the traditional mould and learn to fill traditional roles in non-traditional ways, there are a number of options available.
Offering a number of different and varied classes is nothing new for an MMORPG. 24 is certainly not the largest number of available classes that we have seen in the genre, but it is a respectable number. Throw in the fact that Warhammer Online is a PvP-based RvR game and you’re looking at a pretty significant balancing challenge.
When I asked Gershowitz what goes into balancing the classes, he let me in on the secret of their success, “We have a really good staff of designers who like I said work closely with our internal and BETA testers,” he said. “We are constantly adjusting the balance ‘Dials’ on all of our careers. Luckily, we can choose the level we balance on. Frequently dealing with Archetypical issues first (Across all Tanks for example) and then delving down to specific Career issues later.”
;)
He also wanted to be clear that the game’s beta testers, who always feel passionately about their preferred career and that career’s power level in comparison to others. “Luckily,” he said, “our BETA Testers keep us honest, which also means we do balance passes on every Career on a weekly basis.”
Continuing our conversation about balance, I asked what kind of effect the Realm vs. Realm nature of the game has on the way that the game is balanced. After all, it’s one thing to have classes in a non-PvP game that are mostly, but not entirely balanced. An RvR game on the other hand, where success is measured by how well you stack up against your fellow players, balance needs to be very carefully considered. Replied Gershowitz:
“This has been our biggest challenge. Its very difficult making a player seem “Powerful” against monsters while keeping them on fair ground against players. In the end we’ve chosen to focus the majority of our Career Balance around RvR FIRST, and PVE second. This means we are always balancing the dynamics of the career (Damage, Defense, Healing) around their RvR roles. From there we go back and balance the monsters and encounters to the players (Not vice versa). This is the opposite of many PvE focused games.”
“We also work very hard to give players tools that have use and strategies in both RvR and PvE. A great example of this is our Taunt system. Traditionally taunt is used on silly STUPID AI in PvE, but you really have to twist our arm to make an ability only usable in one half of the game. As such Taunt not only snaps a monster’s Aggro onto you, but it also interrupts any currently casting spells, and gives you 20% more damage against that target until they hit you 3 times.”
“This encourages players to “Peel off” and aggro the player who taunted them or else pay the price in Pain! But it’s a choice they make not something they are forced to do.”
The last thing that we talked about revolved not around overall balance, but the ways in which each career balances against the others.
There are a couple of different schools of thought on how this should be accomplished. There are some who say that each class should, when put side by side against another class, stack up equally. In other words, a fight between any two careers should be based entirely upon player performance. Toe to toe, the two careers should be equal.
The other school of thought says that the first simply isn’t realistic. Some classes are going to be stronger than others. It’s a simple fact.
While EA Mythic come down closer to the second idea than the first, their approach is more measured in that every career has opponents that they are strong against, and opponents that they are weaker against. To illustrate this point, Gershowitz has provided us with this list:
Tanks (Black Orc, Chosen, Blackguard, Ironbreaker, Knight, Sword master)
- Strong Vs Melee DPS
- Even Vs Tanks / Melee Healers
- Weak Vs Ranged DPS / Ranged Healers
Melee DPS (Choppa, Marauder, Witch Elf, Witch Hunter, White Lion, Hammerer)
;)
- Strong Vs Ranged DPS / Ranged Healers
- Even Vs Melee DPS
- Weak Vs Tanks / Melee healers
Ranged DPS (Shadow Warrior, Bright Wizard, Engineer, Sorceress, Magus, Squig Herder)
- Strong Vs Tanks
- Even Vs Ranged DPS / Ranged Healers
- Weak Vs Melee DPS
Melee Healers (Warrior Priest & Disciple)
- Strong Vs Melee DPS
- Even Vs Tanks & Melee Healers
- Weak Vs Ranged DPS
Ranged Healers (Archmage, Rune Priest, Shaman, Zealot)
- Strong Vs Tanks
- Even Vs Ranged DPS / Ranged Healers
- Weak Vs Melee DPS
As Warhammer Online moves closer and closer to its Fall 2008 launch date, we expect to see the results of EA Mythic’s unique choices in the Career System. Will the careers be balanced in a way that is both challenging and fair? Will the career diversity pay off for the game? Only time or beta testers could tell, and since the beta testers can’t talk about it, all we can do is wait and speculate. Still, if what Gershowitz had to say is any indication, it’s clear that the developers are doing everything they can to make sure that they have both a widely diverse and properly balanced game.
Firstly, let me state outright that I'm actually a big fan of this game. That said these interviews, both part 1 and 2 didn't really do much for me. I suppose that if I really had to give a one line opinion, I'd state that "this seems to be similar to everything else." I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Perhaps it may be that I've even missed the mark all together, but as excited as I am about this game - this didn't really make me any more or less giddy about having it.
To the writer's credit I did find myself questioning....myself many times as to whether or not these differences were actually "revolutionary." All and all a good interview, but one I feel doesn't really tell the average WAR fan something he/she doesn't already know. (That too is an opinion people put the flame starters down!) For the clueless passer-by this should be extremely informative.
While good information, it is mostly things that have been said before; but mostly splintered. It is a good collection of various things already said, and as said previously a good article to read if you have just started researching the game/classes.
Interviews are always good though, keep them coming!
The big challenge for Mythic is to avoid the classes that achieve fotm status. Because they always over react and nerf the daylights out of such classes.
Hopefully they have learned from their mistakes in DAoC and put out an excellent game.
Of course it does not hurt that Funcom missed the boat on their design. People are chaffing at the bit for any decent new MMO.
I expect War to do really well.
At least it sounds as if Mythic are still one of those rare companies that actually design there games core mechanics rather than implement a bunch of neat ideas and try (usually with limited success) to sort it all out after release.
Having the game balanced around the RvR 1st and PvE second is interesting! Hopefully WAR will be exceptionally balanced from launch onward and there will be minimal nerfs and changes!
Glad to know that PvP balance comes before PvE and that they're balancing monsters against players not the other way around. It's also great that they're not trying to make all classes equal. It's futile. All classes have their strengths and weaknesses.
In this day and age, I really hope most game developers would do that.
Thanks Stradden, for part 2. It may not be new info to most of us,but I believe it is giving us a good look into the way the game is going to play out. At least to me.
While I liked the first part of this better than the second, the real question I want answered above all questions, is HOW MANY CHARACTERS CAN I CREATE?
I am an alt junky, I want the choice of being able to log in a different class any time I want for a different style of play. I want what WoW has, unlimited characters(not per server, I realize this). Please, Please, Please! don't do what EQ2 and AoC have done and limit me to only 8 to 10 forever.
It has been stated numerous times (just not in this article), that you will be able to create 10 character per server, with the limitation of having all characters in the same server to belong to the same faction.
it was a good read and a great info piece for those who normally don't look too deep into a game
Glad to know about the blance and how some classes are weaker against some others..of course thats not saying that you can't beat them....its not Pokemon you know...
And with this game being RVR based it will be more of group VS group (or zerg VS Zerg)
to DAoC fans: if it comes down to zergfest 2008 at least we wont have mezz...
I was noticing in the interview that Ranged DPS and Ranged Healers are Strong vs Tanks, but what about Melee Healers? Also, Melee Healers are Weak vs Ranged DPS, but what about Ranged Healers?
I noticed that Ranged DPS, Melee Healers and Ranged Healers, were all missing the 5-th career. Is this by design or just over-looked? I thought it might be by design as there are more races that can be other classes? Any thoughts?
LOL this is Mythic, ofc there are fotm classes. Overpowering and nerfing is what they are best at.
Also if they are looking for some kind of a balance they are failing so far.
In this day and age, I really hope most game developers would do that.
So would I. Sad truth is they dont. Take AoC as an example, as off now statistics and attributes do.......absoloutely nothing. So many things changed compleely (active combat for example) a couple of months before launch. Key game play elements and core gameplay beeing made up as they go along. Another great example is TR, completely borked in so many areas of core gameplay. Personaly I am more inclined to forgive bugs, missing content and lack of polish than non existant design that should have taken place before a line of code was written. /climbsoffsoapbox
Well, let's see. Since there are (right now) 4 classes per army, and 3 armies per side, that gives you a total of 12 possible combinations per server. Now, if they allow you 8-10 slots, that takes up most of your professions, unless you're an alt-junky that likes to make multiples of one class (which I never really understood, but to each his own). Now, since the servers will be like DAoC (in that you cannot make an Order class on the same server you make a Destruction class) that should give you enough slots on one server for Order and one server for Destruction, yes?
That, and being an alt-aholic is going to be interesting with this game. The top level is 40 (which I think is wonderful) and that is where the real game unlocks. While you can do all the things you want to do on the way to 40, the real game begins there (according to the literature - ie., Tome of Knowledge, real RvR and city sieges) If the game is in-depth as it is touted to be, then alt-aholics should have quite a time with it. Every experience is supposed to be somewhat different (even your Tome of Knowledge outlines the path that your character has taken).
I guess we'll see.
Pokemon + MMO = wow 'killer'
Any time you have a game with more than 4 different types of characters, your going to have the FOTM clause included.
Take a look at the original WoW game. They had the same types of characters on both sides, except for 2, the paladin and the shaman and Blizzard couldn't even balance that out. Instead, Blizzard gives up and lets both factions have access to their unique classes, thus creating an even more boring gameplay.
I'll take variety and FOTM for exciting gameplay vs. no variety or FOTM with ridiculously boring gameplay.
Any time you have a game with more than 4 different types of characters, your going to have the FOTM clause included.
Take a look at the original WoW game. They had the same types of characters on both sides, except for 2, the paladin and the shaman and Blizzard couldn't even balance that out. Instead, Blizzard gives up and lets both factions have access to their unique classes, thus creating an even more boring gameplay.
I'll take variety and FOTM for exciting gameplay vs. no variety or FOTM with ridiculously boring gameplay.
to Airspell: did you ever think about how blancing was done in DAoC a PVP HEAVY game ...players found an overpowered spec...then after that became the big thing...players would get resists for it from spellcrafters....Then it would get nerfed but by that time the next spec for the next class was the big thing... i mean i never really felt my classes got hit that hard or that i was crazy over whelmed by others (i always ran in groups though). it was a constant nerf fest but the classes always seemed to blance themselves out with spellcrafters and groups DAoC was a solid game untill ToA..... blancing was more in the players hands then Mythics its just there were so many people who jumped on the band wagon it always seemed like one relm was over powered...
(at least this was how i saw it)
to Rock: /agreed
I noticed that too, and it worries me. If they can't even get a chart right then what does that say about the game?
Of course one great way to have complete balance is a skills based system where charcters can pick there skills freely. Of course some builds will become popular and you would have to balance (nerf) certain skills but as stuff is available to all characters that isn't so much of a problem. Rock paper scissor only works if each player has access to all 3 pieces. Less than that makes for a much more one dimensional game.
That list doesn't look balanced.
Tanks: Strong vs 6 classes, weak vs 10 classes
Melee dps: Strong vs 10 classes, weak vs 8 classes
Ranged dps: Strong vs 6 classes, weak vs 6 classes
Melee healers: Strong vs 6 classes, weak vs 6 classes
Ranged healers: Strong vs 6 classes, weak vs 6 classes
People seem to forget the one thing that separates DAOC era Mythic from WAR era Mythic... the acquisition by EA.
Putting aside the usual but well deserved "EA = Evil Empire" rhetoric one of the many things that Mythic's producers and designers have cited as having a massively positive impact on their ability to produce WAR since the buyout is their access to EA's Q&A dept. and its powerful software tools and metrics applications. With EA's software and metrics the daunting task of getting a handle on WAR's classes (and any other content) has gotten much easier for Mythic.
Thanks to EA (did I just write that?) class balance in WAR is now far less problematic for Mythic. It is reasonable to say that EA's Q&A assets will certainly allow for greater turnaround time when addressing critical issues.
is my math wrong? i saw WEAK to range dps twice and same goes for melee dps.IN contrast i only saw WEAK to once for the other classes.Looks to me like range dps and melee dps have more advantages than the other classes.
There were 3 classifications, not two, and the balancing was consistant between the general types. The only imbalance being that there are more ranged healers than melee healers.
Also, you will only be opposed to 12 classes, not the 18 you are claiming for melee dps. 4 of those fall under the even catagory, 3 under strong vs, 5 under weak vs.
Those numbers are reversed for melee dps, with the effect that people taking ranged are still making the trade off of being strong vs one archtype at the expense of being weak vs another. Those taking melee dps so they can take advantage of the fact that there are more ranged healers than melee healers are probably going to the same ones that scream when they get owned by tanks.
In either case, a well constructed and played group is going to own.
Outstanding. As with DAoC this system lends itself to Elite play, meaning players will HAVE to Know how to run their (and others) race/class if they hope to succeed at the high level "metagame".
Hard to explain if you haven't experienced it personally but there truly is a dramatic synergy that takes place in a party who knows their chars.
I lucked out and was part of such a guild in DAoC and was genuinely amazed sometimes at what a party could accomplish, it was like this well oiled killing machine that effortlessly blew through opponents far above the party's level. Contrast that with -identical- random pickup groups who struggled just to defeat evens and mostly ended up getting everyone killed.
I like the way these developers think. Especially the way they make taunt useful in PvP.
Im not usually a fan of class based games. But i might actually give this one a try.
All that sound so good to me . I believe the classe will be very close to balance and .. healer are not weak againts ranged dps !
Yes it was quite something. Early in the games life the exp grind towards the end was horrendous though with a tight knit group tackling tough encounters you could partly mitigate that. Puts you in good stead for the RvR. Happy days.