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ArchLord Forum » General Discussion » Are you serious?

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87 posts found
  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

9/22/06 2:39:32 PM#21

Originally posted by IdesofMarch

Originally posted by Gameloading

Yet when we talk in terms of the game, then WASD has no place in MMO's because it is not needed. Point & click has much more advantages over WASD movement.



To you it's not needed and to you it has more advantages. Not to me though. WASD for me is so much tighter and easier to maneuver with. I've played with both types enough to know what works best for me. Everyone is different and while point-and-click is your preference for others WASD is the best form of control.

Why do you think games offer both styles or allow for control customization? Not because they have nothing better to do in development, that's for sure. The demand is there for both schemes and I think both should be supported. So to say WASD has no place in MMORPG's is just silly.






Its not silly, you completely missed the point of my post. technical ingame wise there is NO need to for WASD movement because twitch based gameplay is not avaible in most mmo's, hence keys that require quick reflexes are not needed. sure you might like WASD movement better, but that is simply not what I am talking about. WASD requires 4 keys, and while using it, it is difficult to hit a great number of other keys at the same time, because the camera movement is usually controlled by the right mouse button. with Point & Click, you can move around AND controll the camera with just one hand, while having an entire hand free for other things such as typing and skill usage. the downside of this is that it removes twitch based gameplay, but this is not avaible in most mmorpg's.

you might like WASD movement better, and thats fine. but completely technical speaking, point & click has  many advantages over WASD movement, and WASD movement has technical speaking no place in MMO's.
  IdesofMarch

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/06
Posts: 1152

[insert witty quote]

9/22/06 3:20:07 PM#22

Originally posted by Gameloading
Its not silly, you completely missed the point of my post. technical ingame wise there is NO need to for WASD movement because twitch based gameplay is not avaible in most mmo's, hence keys that require quick reflexes are not needed. sure you might like WASD movement better, but that is simply not what I am talking about. WASD requires 4 keys, and while using it, it is difficult to hit a great number of other keys at the same time, because the camera movement is usually controlled by the right mouse button. with Point & Click, you can move around AND controll the camera with just one hand, while having an entire hand free for other things such as typing and skill usage. the downside of this is that it removes twitch based gameplay, but this is not avaible in most mmorpg's.

you might like WASD movement better, and thats fine. but completely technical speaking, point & click has  many advantages over WASD movement, and WASD movement has technical speaking no place in MMO's.

Ok, and again, technically it works for you but for me WASD works. One can easily move their character, and hit the number keys for skills without thinking, and use the mouse for targeting, using skills/magic, and camera movement. And I never take the time to type things in the midst of a heated battle so that plays no role in things. Besides, I type with two hands, not one, so I'd have to remove my hand off the mouse anyways.

An example is City of Heroes. As essentially a healer/buffer it's my job to watch my own ass while taking care of those around me. WASD allowed me to move in and out of the battle with ease and accuracy, all the while using the mouse to target allies for heals and buffs. When you pull in that game, WASD allows you to head straight back in an instant behind your tanks/scrappers without ever having to take your focus off what's going on to make that move.

Think of it this way as well. You want to go from Point A to Point B, which is a path with a bit of zig-zagging and curved roads. With point-and-click I simply can't use a continuous movement. I have to click every so often, like segments, to bring myself from A to B. Now with WASD, I can easily maneuver without any pause from A to B in a continuous line. To me I don't have to think where to click next with WASD so I don't get caught on an object or get stuck in a spot. With point-and-click I have to give some of my focus to movement of all things, which for me breaks immersion. With WASD it's instinctful and I don't have to put thought into it. It comes natural.

Now this could be because I've been a console gamer far far longer then I have a PC gamer, and I am completely used to controlling my character with my left hand. However, there are millions of people like myself which you have to take into account when creating/porting a game. It doesn't matter if the game is twitch or not. If a large percentage of your playerbase is more comfortable using WASD, then that becomes something you have to address no matter how much technical sense it makes.

  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

9/22/06 3:48:43 PM#23

Originally posted by IdesofMarch

Originally posted by Gameloading
Its not silly, you completely missed the point of my post. technical ingame wise there is NO need to for WASD movement because twitch based gameplay is not avaible in most mmo's, hence keys that require quick reflexes are not needed. sure you might like WASD movement better, but that is simply not what I am talking about. WASD requires 4 keys, and while using it, it is difficult to hit a great number of other keys at the same time, because the camera movement is usually controlled by the right mouse button. with Point & Click, you can move around AND controll the camera with just one hand, while having an entire hand free for other things such as typing and skill usage. the downside of this is that it removes twitch based gameplay, but this is not avaible in most mmorpg's.

you might like WASD movement better, and thats fine. but completely technical speaking, point & click has  many advantages over WASD movement, and WASD movement has technical speaking no place in MMO's.

Ok, and again, technically it works for you but for me WASD works. One can easily move their character, and hit the number keys for skills without thinking, and use the mouse for targeting, using skills/magic, and camera movement. And I never take the time to type things in the midst of a heated battle so that plays no role in things. Besides, I type with two hands, not one, so I'd have to remove my hand off the mouse anyways.

An example is City of Heroes. As essentially a healer/buffer it's my job to watch my own ass while taking care of those around me. WASD allowed me to move in and out of the battle with ease and accuracy, all the while using the mouse to target allies for heals and buffs. When you pull in that game, WASD allows you to head straight back in an instant behind your tanks/scrappers without ever having to take your focus off what's going on to make that move.

Think of it this way as well. You want to go from Point A to Point B, which is a path with a bit of zig-zagging and curved roads. With point-and-click I simply can't use a continuous movement. I have to click every so often, like segments, to bring myself from A to B. Now with WASD, I can easily maneuver without any pause from A to B in a continuous line. To me I don't have to think where to click next with WASD so I don't get caught on an object or get stuck in a spot. With point-and-click I have to give some of my focus to movement of all things, which for me breaks immersion. With WASD it's instinctful and I don't have to put thought into it. It comes natural.

Now this could be because I've been a console gamer far far longer then I have a PC gamer, and I am completely used to controlling my character with my left hand. However, there are millions of people like myself which you have to take into account when creating/porting a game. It doesn't matter if the game is twitch or not. If a large percentage of your playerbase is more comfortable using WASD, then that becomes something you have to address no matter how much technical sense it makes.


Everything you discribed with WASD movement can also be done with point & click just as easily. with point & click, you can also use a continues movement. you don't have to make stops, I think its your ability with point & click that is at fault here, not the point & clcik system. everything you discribed can also be done with point & click just as easily, the diffrence is that you can also use the camera AND reach the last skill keys without problems.

and again, like I said, I'm talking from a technical viewpoint. there is no "technicaly it works for you".
  IdesofMarch

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/06
Posts: 1152

[insert witty quote]

9/22/06 4:00:46 PM#24

Originally posted by Gameloading
Everything you discribed with WASD movement can also be done with point & click just as easily. with point & click, you can also use a continues movement. you don't have to make stops, I think its your ability with point & click that is at fault here, not the point & clcik system. everything you discribed can also be done with point & click just as easily, the diffrence is that you can also use the camera AND reach the last skill keys without problems.

and again, like I said, I'm talking from a technical viewpoint. there is no "technicaly it works for you".

It can, but it's personal preference that comes down to it in the end which you're not getting. Your point has already been made on the technical thing. Games don't revolve around everything technical. Preferences and customer's wants and needs are involved. In this thread you've made it seem like WASD is worthless, not needed, and that we all should get over it and use point-and-click. If a game used that mindset of "we know what you want and need, not you" when creating a game they'd have quite the flop on their hands. Look at this thread. No one has agreed with you that WASD has no use in a MMORPG, twitch or not. I think we can all agree that if full customization isn't going to be offered, then surely both point-and-click and WASD should.

  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

9/22/06 4:16:26 PM#25

Originally posted by IdesofMarch

Originally posted by Gameloading
Everything you discribed with WASD movement can also be done with point & click just as easily. with point & click, you can also use a continues movement. you don't have to make stops, I think its your ability with point & click that is at fault here, not the point & clcik system. everything you discribed can also be done with point & click just as easily, the diffrence is that you can also use the camera AND reach the last skill keys without problems.

and again, like I said, I'm talking from a technical viewpoint. there is no "technicaly it works for you".

It can, but it's personal preference that comes down to it in the end which you're not getting. Your point has already been made on the technical thing. Games don't revolve around everything technical. Preferences and customer's wants and needs are involved. In this thread you've made it seem like WASD is worthless, not needed, and that we all should get over it and use point-and-click. If a game used that mindset of "we know what you want and need, not you" when creating a game they'd have quite the flop on their hands. Look at this thread. No one has agreed with you that WASD has no use in a MMORPG, twitch or not. I think we can all agree that if full customization isn't going to be offered, then surely both point-and-click and WASD should.


Actually, I am getting it, but like I said, I spoke from a technical standpoint. and yes, I do see WASD as worthless and not needed for me, because really it isn't speaking from a technical standpoint and as a fan of point & click. and since when does it matter if people agree with me or not? that does not take away the FACT that point & click offers more options then WASD movement. if you prefer WASD games, then by all means, use WASD movement, and if a game doesn't offer that, then go to another game. the reason WASD is done so bad is because the game is build for point & click. the only way to change it is to turn it into a WoW, COH or EQ2 like system. as you may know, WASD works well in those games, but point & click is TERRIBLE in those games. its really not as simple as it looks, and I see no reason to sacrifice Point & click for WASD when it doesn't add anything to the gameplay.
  User Deleted
9/22/06 4:16:28 PM#26

no twitch...can agree with that.

One question ..how would i use positionals with point and click?? Point and click seems to work on a graph system of some kind, i agree with feeling squared. Like old UO had the little trick of i believe it was 8X8 box movements making you get skills faster.

Just my opinion ,but WASD give you actual freedom of movement from point  "A" to "B", whether then click yourself to "B". From my play exp i much rather WASD in a PVP environment then PnC.

Of course to each his/her own. GL all.

  Azure77

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/06
Posts: 356

9/22/06 5:53:55 PM#27

WASD was introduce into MMORPGs to give the feel the of Action-RPGs. In some games like CoH and CoV  it added to fast pace combat element.

    Is it needed in MMORPG , the average gamer is use to WASD, so getting them to get use to Point and Click is another factor in the game ability for mass appeal.

   The problem with Korean games , and WASD is geodata (map data or terrian data) isnt in most Korean games, Lineage 2 in C2 added basic geodata. With mixed results , and at the time NCsoft Korea , said too much cost for too little results.

    Most US games ship with geodata , because normally US games lavish in wasted money anyhow. Korean games are made to cost less , and make money quickly. US games are most over budgeted and bloated projects that get revamped during the course of Alpha to Beta.

    When a company attempts to Westernize an Eastern game , they do barebones fixes , and updates to WASD movement system. Most times the reason why it feels sluggish is because of the lack of real terian or geodata in the game.

    Is WASD outdated for MMORPGs? It needs to be included no matter how you feel about it , because it brings mass appeal and some that gamers are use to. Most US gamers want the "thier way or the highway" most want some control over thier character , even if it is a disadvantage in PVP (because of Korean/Asian design).

    Its just normally a long road , to make it work decent in Korean MMORPGs.

  Sylvarius

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/05
Posts: 70

9/23/06 1:53:28 AM#28
ok so after reading some of this, i just had to reply, how about instead of yelling and saying "no im right" "NO your wrong im right".  why dont you try explaining your position on the matter at hand.

i personally feel WASD is an improvement, because it completely frees up your mouse to click about and not accidently disengage you from combat.  i have serious issues using the point-click movement style.  WASD is far far better. because ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  IdesofMarch

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/06
Posts: 1152

[insert witty quote]

9/23/06 2:05:32 AM#29

Originally posted by Sylvarius
ok so after reading some of this, i just had to reply, how about instead of yelling and saying "no im right" "NO your wrong im right".  why dont you try explaining your position on the matter at hand.



And obviously you didn't read any of it because if you did you'd see that everyone has been explaining their position and/or opinions on the matter. It's called discussion. It's what we do here.

  DrowNoble

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/05
Posts: 1283

9/23/06 2:06:16 AM#30

I will not say whether WASD is good or bad, but I will say that the movement in Archlord is "quirky".  It doesn't feel as smooth or intuitive as say WoW or CoX.  A lot of frantic clicking and button mashing sometimes to get my knight to move from Point A to Point B.

They really need to fix this, movement is a basic thing in any MMOG and it just isn't that good in Archlord right now.

  Bladin

Novice Member

Joined: 9/01/03
Posts: 1112

9/23/06 2:09:37 AM#31
i honestly can not stand point and click games.

1.  It always has horrible pathing, its bad in l2, its bad in al, its bad in alot of games.  See that cliff? well im sorry but your characters too dumb to jump off it....time to run around!

2.  It makes pvp pretty boring, i remember playing L2 alot as a melee character and most of the time i just started attacking a enemy, while i auto followed them, using my skills and whatnot.  Lots of fun there.

3. It makes movement feel too fake.  Instead of controlling your character, you are just telling him where to go.  This is a big one for me here.  In a wasd movement game it gives you the feeling of hey im moving forward, hey im moving backwards, gotta turn.  Point and click leads you to the feeling of dragging your character along by a leash untill he finally gets to the spot he wanted.  Let alone its alot easier to judge distances in wasd during combat.

4. It's easier to move, target, and control the camera while using skills with wasd.  Its DREADFULLY easy to use your active skills with wasd, at the same time moving.  But with point and click, its harder to do positionals, and generally most fights which aren't just chasing someone have 2 people standing face to face smacking each other.  FUN!  honestly wows game mechanics blow out ANY P&C dominated game on the market(not talking about the entire game, just its mechanics)...because it allows free flow combat.

5. Picking up "dropped" loot with your mouse.  It sucks sometimes moving your character instead of just picking up. or as in ALs case sometimes some items are actually unable to be picked up without hovering your mouse over the item untill you find the one spot in its graphic that allows you to pick it up. 

Point and click is outdated.

Sure saying wasd is only for twitch games... well thats because twitch games are generally more fun, more stable, and are just more playable.  Archlord tho is one of the best that ive played, but its just not good enough to be worth paying for/buying imho. 

  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

9/23/06 5:14:25 AM#32
You can pick up loot with the space bar in AL, and most point & click games have a shortcut to pick up loot.

also, how exactly is it more easy to target? You both use the mouse in WASD movement and Point & click. skills with wasd? sure, try holding "A" and hit the 9 or 0 key while holding your right hand on the mouse to change the camera.
  Gable

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/06
Posts: 37

9/23/06 6:13:04 AM#33
GAMELOADING?!  Are you crazy?  Do you realize what a tiny, tiny minority you're by thinking that WASD is oudated?  Point and click is awful!  Ludicrously awful!  Why would I want to run straightforward everywhere instead of sidestepping, strafing, walking backwards, and most importantly, JUMPING!  I can't believe my ears.  I honestly would have said that no one on earth would choose point and click over WASD.  It blows my mind.  In fact, I think your lying!  You must be!  I...I....did I mention I can't believe my ears?  I think they're bleeding...yep, yep, they're bleeding.

Wow.....just wow.     
  Shineryuu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/05
Posts: 5

9/23/06 6:32:12 AM#34

point and clicks are almost 100% harcore grinds. Thus a point and click system. It has its benefits to hardcores, when I was hardcoreing in SRO or L2 a WSAD system would have been kind of dumb. As grinds require constant camera adjustments thus ur right hand and spamming skills require ur left hand. WSAD would make it kind of annoying... since you would need a third hand.

point-click = grinding

WSAD = smoother moving

I'd like to see a game that has both able to be used inter-changeably and with enough benefits that players would have to use both in order to be efficient. SRO has a arrow system but too laggy for any use.

of course, I haven't played this game yet, so whether or not the system/physics is 15 years out-of-date I've yet to see. All movements are technically boxes, but if it's boxy as you said eadu then the game makers definately did a sloppy job.

  Gameloading

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/04
Posts: 14173

9/23/06 6:35:31 AM#35

Originally posted by Gable
GAMELOADING?!  Are you crazy?  Do you realize what a tiny, tiny minority you're by thinking that WASD is oudated?  Point and click is awful!  Ludicrously awful!  Why would I want to run straightforward everywhere instead of sidestepping, strafing, walking backwards, and most importantly, JUMPING!  I can't believe my ears.  I honestly would have said that no one on earth would choose point and click over WASD.  It blows my mind.  In fact, I think your lying!  You must be!  I...I....did I mention I can't believe my ears?  I think they're bleeding...yep, yep, they're bleeding.

Wow.....just wow.     


really? shall we look at the facts?

Lineage 2: Point & click game, 1,5 million subscribers
Lineage: Point & click game, 1,5 million subscribers

and then I don't even include hundreds of other MMO's in Korea. the majority of mmo players prefer point & click over WASD. (this is a wild geuss, but most likely is true. it is impossible to count the free to play MMO players)

Why would I want to strafe, move backwards (when you can just turn around instantly in Point & click) and jump, when it is NOT necisary?
  Shineryuu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/05
Posts: 5

9/23/06 6:43:08 AM#36

WSAD prolly will never be outdated.

However, being Korean and a harcore mmorpg not mmo player. I have to say point and click is a grinder's preferred movement.

If you disagree with me in that it's not for grinding, then I won't say ur a noob at mmorpgs cuz who knows maybe you're amazing but you're being too stubborn and bent up on WSAD.

Btw, i frequent korean forums and I've seen topics similar to this but it usually divides itself into FPS or MMOmelee and MMORPG players. And finally they realize they like playing different types of games.

Like I've said before WSAD is melee centered, or melee-like centered.

and point and click games are grind-centered, usually theres no such thing as grind-like but just in case there is, grind-like centered.

  Duncan.SCA

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 7

9/23/06 7:48:11 AM#37

I also had to play it for some hours to get a little used to the movement...
and I still think it's far away from being smooth. It happens quite a lot that I hang on rocks or fences.

On any other MMO I like to play WASD. The point-and-klick is really useful sometimes (when you see where aou want to go and just click) but I think players should decide what style they play.

If you waht to point-and-click, do so. But WASD should at least be possible.

  havocthefirs

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/04
Posts: 230

No matter where you go, there you are.

9/23/06 9:24:36 AM#38
Point and click and wasd both suck for movement. Hold down the right mouse button and wherever you move the mouse is your direction. It aint rocket science and it make movement a breeze.
  User Deleted
9/23/06 11:00:03 AM#39

While we're at this "i'd prefer" discussion, why not make all mmoRPG's into exactly what they're implying, a role playing game in all aspects.
To me, it's too fps-like.

Oh and GAMELOADING, the only place where i'd see PnC as a real strength is in a adventure game (you know, monkey island) and a RPG, but since most console and online RPGs are a fusion of action and RPG, it may just be wishful thinking.
You know GAMELOADING, im totally with you there, AL seems to be less action, more adventure, so a PnC only system might actually fit with succes.

To Bladin.
Sure, it does make lotta sense to just off the cliff, "Im kinda lazy today, i dont wanna walk around the cliff" he jumps, and a few seconds later he's a pile of mush. In a RPG it doesn't make the least to jump off a cliff, anyone who do should get ready to take the consequenses. But meh.... im apparently one of the few wanting RPG to be a genre for itself, instead of gradually being merged with the action genre.

  JelloB2000

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/04
Posts: 1854

9/23/06 9:24:18 PM#40


Originally posted by Gameloading

Originally posted by Gable
GAMELOADING?! Are you crazy? Do you realize what a tiny, tiny minority you're by thinking that WASD is oudated? Point and click is awful! Ludicrously awful! Why would I want to run straightforward everywhere instead of sidestepping, strafing, walking backwards, and most importantly, JUMPING! I can't believe my ears. I honestly would have said that no one on earth would choose point and click over WASD. It blows my mind. In fact, I think your lying! You must be! I...I....did I mention I can't believe my ears? I think they're bleeding...yep, yep, they're bleeding.Wow.....just wow.


really? shall we look at the facts?Lineage 2: Point & click game, 1,5 million subscribersLineage: Point & click game, 1,5 million subscribersand then I don't even include hundreds of other MMO's in Korea. the majority of mmo players prefer point & click over WASD. (this is a wild geuss, but most likely is true. it is impossible to count the free to play MMO players)Why would I want to strafe, move backwards (when you can just turn around instantly in Point & click) and jump, when it is NOT necisary?



....Why can it no be WASD & click movement Mr Archlord?

Movement has nothing to do with financial success of a mmorpg except where it is lacking, like for example only WASD or only click-based. Technically one doesnt exclude the other but I guess you can come with an excuse for that aswell.

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