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Castle Thorn Software / Nexeon Technologies | Official Site
MMORPG | Genre:Sci-Fi | Status:Final  (rel 09/21/07)  | Pub:Castle Thorn Software / Nexeon Technologies
PVP:Yes | Distribution:Download | Retail Price:n/a | Pay Type:Subscription
System Req: PC | Out of date info? Let us know!

StarQuest Online Forum » General Discussion » Did anyone "read" the licence agreement for this game?

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32 posts found
  The-Raven

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/04
Posts: 233

 
OP  9/01/07 11:49:59 AM#1

I usally don't.   I am like most and figure everything is ok and I want to play the game so I just click "accept" and next 

But for whatever reason read this one.

Is it normal for these licence agreements to ask you to accept the fact that they will inspect "every file on your hard drive" ?

It came right out and said their software could be considered "invasive" and will without notice to me send my PC updates.

 

Is this normal?

 

oh....and I canceled the install.   I do not like the idea of giving anyone the "ok" to inspect every file on my hard drive.

  trooper347

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/30/06
Posts: 86

9/01/07 11:55:55 AM#2

Wow, I read through the agreement after seeing your post, and also will not be installing this one...Thanks for the heads up.

  The-Raven

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/04
Posts: 233

 
OP  9/01/07 11:56:47 AM#3

Here is some of the agreement:

.....

 

Licensee further acknowledges and accepts that Castle Thorn software may be considered invasive. Licensee understands that Castle Thorn software inspects and reports information about the computer on which it is installed to other connected computers and Licensee agrees to allow Castle Thorn software to inspect and report such information about the computer on which Licensee installs Castle Thorn software. Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by Castle Thorn software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which Castle Thorn software is installed.

and

 

 Licensee also acknowledges and agrees that Castle Thorn software is self-updating, which means that future updates will, from time to time and without any notice, automatically be downloaded and installed as a normal and expected function of Castle Thorn software.

 

 

  l0rdb0sh

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/06
Posts: 20

9/04/07 12:37:49 PM#4

Well, we took the time to ask them about this and pretty much it is for emergency patching of the client as well as anti cheating, if they ever need it (they haven't yet it seems).

I'm pretty sure all games that have anti hacking/cheating software built in or running alongside it has something similar to this. If they did not include this they probably could not even check what you have running in the background while playing the game to ensure you are not running a malicious program of sorts.

I'll still be playing this game, along with all of the other games I play that use anti cheating software. This game, to me, is far too enjoyable to allow some legal fine print to scare me. If that was the case, I wouldn't be playing any online games or visiting any sites that insert cookies.

  CastleThorn

Novice Member

Joined: 9/04/07
Posts: 1

9/04/07 2:44:43 PM#5
I am an engineer at Castle Thorn Software, I'll try to clear this up a little.
Originally posted by The-Raven

Here is some of the agreement:

.....

 

Licensee further acknowledges and accepts that Castle Thorn software may be considered invasive. Licensee understands that Castle Thorn software inspects and reports information about the computer on which it is installed to other connected computers and Licensee agrees to allow Castle Thorn software to inspect and report such information about the computer on which Licensee installs Castle Thorn software. Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by Castle Thorn software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which Castle Thorn software is installed.

 

This is to allow us to detect packet sniffers, memory editors, or other programs that would allow someone to cheat.  All MMORPG's do this, at least we admit that we might have to.  We DO NOT  do anything beyond this.

and

 

 Licensee also acknowledges and agrees that Castle Thorn software is self-updating, which means that future updates will, from time to time and without any notice, automatically be downloaded and installed as a normal and expected function of Castle Thorn software.


Our software patches itself as needed, this is hardly a weird thing for a MMORPG do do.  And there is a big, fat CANCEL button on the screen when a patch is in progress.  Patching only affects the files installed by the game, NOTHING else.

 

 __________________________

 

 

 

 

 

  The-Raven

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/04
Posts: 233

 
OP  9/05/07 7:51:19 AM#6
Originally posted by l0rdb0sh

Well, we took the time to ask them about this and pretty much it is for emergency patching of the client as well as anti cheating, if they ever need it (they haven't yet it seems).

I'm pretty sure all games that have anti hacking/cheating software built in or running alongside it has something similar to this. If they did not include this they probably could not even check what you have running in the background while playing the game to ensure you are not running a malicious program of sorts.

I'll still be playing this game, along with all of the other games I play that use anti cheating software. This game, to me, is far too enjoyable to allow some legal fine print to scare me. If that was the case, I wouldn't be playing any online games or visiting any sites that insert cookies.


 Do you understand the international laws about "cookies" like where they can reside, what they can do without the users permissions and so forth?

A licence agreement that you read and have to "click" a button stating you agree to what the software is going to do if you install it and web site cookies are just a little different.

  The-Raven

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/04
Posts: 233

 
OP  9/05/07 7:57:48 AM#7

 

Originally posted by CastleThorn
I am an engineer at Castle Thorn Software, I'll try to clear this up a little.
Originally posted by The-Raven

Here is some of the agreement:

.....

 

Licensee further acknowledges and accepts that Castle Thorn software may be considered invasive. Licensee understands that Castle Thorn software inspects and reports information about the computer on which it is installed to other connected computers and Licensee agrees to allow Castle Thorn software to inspect and report such information about the computer on which Licensee installs Castle Thorn software. Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by Castle Thorn software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which Castle Thorn software is installed.

 

This is to allow us to detect packet sniffers, memory editors, or other programs that would allow someone to cheat.  All MMORPG's do this, at least we admit that we might have to.  We DO NOT  do anything beyond this.

and

 

 Licensee also acknowledges and agrees that Castle Thorn software is self-updating, which means that future updates will, from time to time and without any notice, automatically be downloaded and installed as a normal and expected function of Castle Thorn software.


Our software patches itself as needed, this is hardly a weird thing for a MMORPG do do.  And there is a big, fat CANCEL button on the screen when a patch is in progress.  Patching only affects the files installed by the game, NOTHING else.

 

 __________________________

 

 

 

 

 

I do not think the wording you have used in your agreement is something many other software licence agreements have used.  You can be assured that I will be checking.

 

While you state "we only use this for our own purposes...." does not take away the fact that you are asking for the right to inspect EVERY file on my entire hard drive and that you are going to use that information as you see necessary.   What you see necessary today does not mean that is what you will be seeing tomorrow and giving you full access to my files is something I will not do.

Thanks, but no thanks.    

  Vrika

Elite Member

Joined: 10/03/05
Posts: 1854

9/05/07 10:30:01 AM#8
Originally posted by CastleThorn
I am an engineer at Castle Thorn Software, I'll try to clear this up a little.
Originally posted by The-Raven

Licensee further acknowledges and accepts that Castle Thorn software may be considered invasive. Licensee understands that Castle Thorn software inspects and reports information about the computer on which it is installed to other connected computers and Licensee agrees to allow Castle Thorn software to inspect and report such information about the computer on which Licensee installs Castle Thorn software. Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by Castle Thorn software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which Castle Thorn software is installed.

 

This is to allow us to detect packet sniffers, memory editors, or other programs that would allow someone to cheat.  All MMORPG's do this, at least we admit that we might have to.  We DO NOT  do anything beyond this.


Scanning system to detect cheats is ok. But you should change the lisence agreement so that users would have to agree only to scans to find out cheats, not to scans for any other purpose. And then it would be similar to other MMORPGs.
  TauCetiIII

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/06
Posts: 38

9/05/07 10:58:04 AM#9

I did a look around the games I play, and this EULA sounds an awful lot like the one you agree to when you have a game that uses "Punkbuster", so there's a bunch of games out there with a similar EULA

I recently bought Civilization IV, and even though it's not a MMORPG, it has something called SafeDisc, that scans your computer for CD burning programs.

 

 

Too bad we have to have cheaters, hackers, and thieves that make this crap necessary

  Oculitus

Novice Member

Joined: 3/25/06
Posts: 204

9/05/07 11:11:13 AM#10

Most companies want permission to scan any programs that running while logged on, not any and everything on your hard drive.   That is not normal, even for the process of looking for cheaters.

  User Deleted
9/05/07 11:59:57 AM#11

 

Originally posted by Oculitus

Most companies want permission to scan any programs that running while logged on, not any and everything on your hard drive.   That is not normal, even for the process of looking for cheaters.


Agreed. what if they get a disgruntled dev who decides to start sniffing around player's computers? The EULA has basically been written in a way as to allow the open invasion of privacy on a player's computer system, with no recourse for action if said access is abused, because of the way the EULA is written.

 

While I'm sure the devs have no ulterior motives, I would suggest noone worried about this issue install this game until the EULA, which you must agree to in order to play, is rewritten in a manner consistent with the intended use of player info and prescribed limits on info which is accessible to devs of the game concerning cheat/hacking/bot programs vs. personal files and data which are in no way  legitimately needed to accomplish the task.

Edit: If the devs do not intend to rewrite the EULA, then there should be a stickied warning in the StarQuest Online section of these forums, with a copy of the EULA included, to let potential players know of the possible risk involved due to the present wording of the EULA, so that they may decide whether they are okay with this before they agree to the EULA ingame.

  TauCetiIII

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/06
Posts: 38

9/05/07 12:21:31 PM#12

From Wikipedia:

Games which use PunkBuster

    * America's Army
    * Battlefield 1942
    * Battlefield 2
    * Battlefield 2142
    * Battlefield Vietnam
    * Call of Duty
    * Call of Duty 2
    * Crysis (support announced)
    * Doom 3
    * Enemy Territory: Quake Wars
    * Far Cry (support suspended)
    * F.E.A.R. (As well as expansion pack)
    * Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising
    * Knight Online
    * Medal of Honor: Airborne
    * Medal of Honor: Pacific Assault
    * Prey
    * Quake III Arena
    * Quake 4
    * Return to Castle Wolfenstein
    * Soldier of Fortune II: Double Helix
    * Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield
    * Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Lockdown
    * Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas
    * Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow
    * Ultima Online
    * Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory
    * War Rock

 

And if a disgruntled dev was going to snoop around on your computer, is the EULA going to stop them?

  User Deleted
9/05/07 12:57:43 PM#13

 

Originally posted by TauCetiIII

From Wikipedia:

Games which use PunkBuster

    * America's Army
    * Battlefield 1942
    * Battlefield 2
    * Battlefield 2142
    * Battlefield Vietnam
    * Call of Duty
    * Call of Duty 2
    * Crysis (support announced)
    * Doom 3
    * Enemy Territory: Quake Wars
    * Far Cry (support suspended)
    * F.E.A.R. (As well as expansion pack)
    * Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising
    * Knight Online
    * Medal of Honor: Airborne
    * Medal of Honor: Pacific Assault
    * Prey
    * Quake III Arena
    * Quake 4
    * Return to Castle Wolfenstein
    * Soldier of Fortune II: Double Helix
    * Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield
    * Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Lockdown
    * Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six: Vegas
    * Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow
    * Ultima Online
    * Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory
    * War Rock

 

And if a disgruntled dev was going to snoop around on your computer, is the EULA going to stop them?

Now, show any of those games saying they are entitled to access all files on your computer. I also only see one game (UO) that requires credit card or other personal identifying details to play. Details easily obtainable if someone is given access to your entire computer.

 

Second of all, no, it wouldn't stop them. However, it removes all liability for such an action from the devs. And on the devs end, if they ever needed to present that EULA in court to back up a claim against any user, or to defend against any claim from a user, any competant lawyer would laugh at them and refuse the case before he ever allowed that document to be presented to a judge or jury, simply because of that wording.

The way the EULA is worded makes it null and void as any type of legal document. Someone could run a free server of that game, and never be sued for IP infringement, as that EULA as presently written is completely and totally unenforceable. Also, in many states, absolute removal of liability for possible damages occuring due to the companies negligence and/or fault (i.e. allowing access to every file on a persons computer, which the EULA states is allowed, therefore creating a serious security risk) is illegal. Whether the devs do indeed access all the files on your computer is irrelevant, as their "contract" states that they do.

And finally, if the devs have access to your entire computer, so do any hackers who access the company's game servers/database.

  TauCetiIII

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/06
Posts: 38

9/05/07 1:06:33 PM#14

From Punkbusters EULA:

 

"Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster software is installed. Further, Licensee consents to allow PunkBuster software to transfer actual screenshots taken of Licensee's computer during the operation of PunkBuster software for possible publication."

 

All the games listed above use Punkbuster

 

I ain't sayin I like this, I am saying it's not fair to bust CST's chops for it

  User Deleted
9/05/07 1:09:52 PM#15
Originally posted by TauCetiIII

From Punkbusters EULA:

 

"Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster software is installed. Further, Licensee consents to allow PunkBuster software to transfer actual screenshots taken of Licensee's computer during the operation of PunkBuster software for possible publication."

 

All the games listed above use Punkbuster

 

I ain't sayin I like this, I am saying it's not fair to bust CST's chops for it

Hmm, never played with Punkbuster before, so never paid much attention to it  'til now. I'm surprised they've gotten away with that this long.

  TauCetiIII

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/06
Posts: 38

9/05/07 1:11:53 PM#16

Me too

 

Castle Thorn already changed their EULA because of this discussion

 

See why I like em ?

 

From the SQO website:

 

Due to some concerns over the wording of our End User License Agreement (EULA), we have changed the wording to make our intentions clear.

This is the OFFICIAL DOCUMENT, superceding any others before it

http://www.castlethornsoftware.com/EULA.RTF

The new section reads:

"Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by Castle Thorn software is limited to devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer known to be used for the purpose of reverse engineering, packet sniffing, or other activities used to gain advantages in the game not intended by the game’s designers."

  User Deleted
9/05/07 1:17:39 PM#17
Originally posted by TauCetiIII

Me too

 

Castle Thorn already changed their EULA because of this discussion

 

See why I like em ?

 

From the SQO website:

 

Due to some concerns over the wording of our End User License Agreement (EULA), we have changed the wording to make our intentions clear.

This is the OFFICIAL DOCUMENT, superceding any others before it

http://www.castlethornsoftware.com/EULA.RTF

The new section reads:

"Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by Castle Thorn software is limited to devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer known to be used for the purpose of reverse engineering, packet sniffing, or other activities used to gain advantages in the game not intended by the game’s designers."

Good deal. In fact, I was just getting ready to post this: http://www.evenbalance.com/index.php?page=privacy.php , as it explains why PB has gone unchallenged. Basically what Castle Thorn has just done.

Edit: Furthermore, I'd like to add that I was not condemning CT as a company, so much as their original EULA, as it could have been detrimental to both their customers and themselves. Nice to see they cleared it up.

  TauCetiIII

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/06
Posts: 38

9/05/07 1:20:23 PM#18

Cool

 

NOW COME PLAY WITH US

  The-Raven

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/04
Posts: 233

 
OP  9/19/07 7:02:45 PM#19

  Glassrunner

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/22/06
Posts: 7

10/15/07 10:14:01 PM#20

Zorvan for President!

The-Raven for Secretary of Defense!

I really like how you guys lay the smack down. Sounds like this game could be used as a trojan.

As for CastleThorn, you suck. Fix the exploits instead of resorting to snooping.

And in case i forgot to mention, you suck.

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