Nice article!  A great read, very well written.

"find something you like and have fun"

Your right that quote does do the trick, except not how you put it. Orginally EQ2 was its own game and was something people liked, then SOE decided they wanted money, obvious I suppose. Playing the game now feels dirty and unnatural. I Logged in and felt as if I was playing a very very shity WoW mod. Its sad that SOE ruined such a great game.

Maybe EQ3 will come one day and make its own mark.

Every game I try sends me back to EQ2. Best Fantasy MMO out there. Can't understand all the hate too.

Cause SOE released a buggy game missing tons of content that was needed and we all warned SOE but they pushed EQ2 anyways and it got owned by WOW and since then they've ruined most of what made EQ2 unique and made it into a WOW clone with crap PVP. They did the same thing to Star Wars Galaxies and doing the same thing to Vanguard and ruined Planetside due to a lack of direction, we wanted them to change the bases so we wernt capturing the same layout over and over agian. Yet SOE scrapped that idea and decided to go for stupid things like caverns and BFR's and all that shite.

Until someone with a clue takes over John Smedleys job then SOE will continue to suck.

Decision after decision, John Smedley continues to prove he is the most unliked CEO of any MMO business.   One of these days Sony will wake up and fire him.  When a CEO consistently overrules game design issues to the detriment of the playerbase, especially when he is as ignorant of the genre as Smedley is, you are going to have hate.

EQ2 could have been a great game, instead it is just another mediocre attempt at competing with Wow with a small niche audience.

SOE used to be the top dog in this business for years, now they are taking a back seat to all the other major MMO producers.  It has to be obvious to everyone that SOE needs to change and change drastically to reverse this trend.

It is not just the SWG debacle that is drawing hate, it is what is being done to all the titles.  Look at their upcoming Agent offering, they are doing the cash shop revenue model for it.  How many people will play a MMO where people can buy their way to success?  Not many.

Having been to a variety of MMO forums, I can offer my opinion on the spewing of hate, on criticism in general, and on criticism of SoE in particular.

Firstly, some people just spew hate because they like to complain.  The type of people who I see on music forums saying "That band is so trendy, they suck" (obviously, this is the watered-down version of their complaints) are the same type of people who are on MMO forums saying "This game is for newbs.  Everything has become vulgarized to suit the players who don't want to take the time to understand and learn a game."  In truth, I see some validity to their criticisms, but I also see a continuing thread of complaints that makes me believe their propensity to complain is something endemic to their personality.

Secondly, it is obvious that there are some players who enjoy the hardcore world of MMOs, where death penalty is harsh, where you can become "ganked" at any moment, etc., etc.  These people are in the minority, however, because the majority of players do not want to lose an hour of playing time rebuilding their character due to an egregious death penalty.  This silent majority is too busy playing and enjoying the game to post up on the forums (generally).  This is why, I suspect, companies are more likely to receive complaints than compliments on their forums, customer support websites, etc.  But on the subject of the minority's opinions, I suspect that its members are feeling increasingly disparaged by the "WOWisation" (as one person was quoted in the article as calling it) of MMORPGs.  I can sympathize, but only because I can see why that would feel disparaging, not because I do not want to see companies make their games generally accessible.

Thirdly, there are also Everquest 2 criticisms  out of line with either of the two above circumstances.  These criticisms are genuine, fair, and too varied to categorize in a paragraph.  These, however, are not the source of hate.

The hatred for Everquest 2 is, I believe, partly fueled by hatred for SoE in general.  If you ever go to a Star Wars Galaxies forum, you will see the hate for SoE's treatment of the game, which turns quickly into hatred for SoE itself, spewing everything, and if you hover in the forums too long, you will be severely drained by it (I suspect it would be even worse for a game developer/designer than it is for me).  Every game of SoE consequently becomes subjective to ridicule, at least potentially.  Anything that SoE does that reminds people of how they have popularized their games to "make a quick buck" will further fuel this rage.  Indeed, the games themselves that have been popularized are obviously open to ridicule.

Beyond that, hatred for EQ2 continues for the same reason that anything or anyone on the internet is slammed or viciously chided: because hate is easy to have when no one is there to keep you in check.  On the internet, people are untouchable, which allows for the amplification of feelings that would otherwise be tempered by social presence.

As for me, I just didn't like the game much.  It was fun for a bit, but I couldn't stay interested in it--I am not sure why.  Some of the quests are hard to complete because there are 5 creatures available to be killed for a quest that requires you to kill 15 of them (not because others are working on the quest, but just because the developers did not make enough creatures).  The game is also very large and, to some degree, overwhelming.  Others may like the game's vastness; for me, my interest waned before I could come to grapple with it all.

I'm tired of writing.  That's all I have to say; lol.

going to eq2 flames, the pit of unmoderated posts probably isn't a good ideal. Anyone with any grievance against eq2 goes there as it's completely unmoderated. Posts won't be hushed up 5 seconds after there posted.

And the sony forums? Its where the majority of whining people go to protest. I don't actually see much informative posts on the soe forums. Mostly it's change this or else, or do this or else, or how can you possibly do that.

If you want to see more positive posts go try some of the smaller comunities. Try Eq2 Ui - Eq2 maps, I have no ideal of the links however. The eq2 wikki forums, and Eq2 traders - Their away from the bickering of the soe forums and concentrate on helping people.

Unfortunatly you picked two of the worst places to visit when it comes to looking for information.

-B-

In my 4 years of playing EQ2, I would say it was very rare for the official forum moderators to delete a post due to it containing "hatred".

And this is for a few very good reasons.

1. The player base is mature, friendly and polite. Even in PVP heated discussions, people will back down and apologise if they are proved wrong.

2. The developers spend alot of time on the forums talking through problems. They listen to the problems players have, and in most cases act on them. If a 21 page thread appears about an announced change and how its not liked, they cancel the change and tell everyone why.

3. They give the players updates WAY in advance, and let the players discuss them. Then they put them on public test, and leave them for weeks for further discussion, then they go live. If at any point in this the players make it clear the change is not a good one, the update stops, is changed or is cancelled.

Yes, EQ2 is easier than once it was. Yes, some of the elements from WoW have been brought in, HOWEVER, as WoW took these ideas from EQ1 first, its acceptable for EQ2 to have them as well. For the most part, for most players, the changes to the game over the last 4 years have grown to be welcomed, once we have tried them. The community is solid, the game is stable, plays well, looks beautiful, and has more content and depth than any other MMO out there today. Sure, you may have to really play it for a while to realise that depth, but its there. And they continue to do this. With the next expansion, adding really challenging group dungeons with puzzles and real tactics, guild houses, mission systems, new AA levelling systems and more, its just getting better and better, whereas other games are remaining at the same point they were at launch.

I think your perspective on EQ2 depends on how deep into the game (and MMOs in general) you are. I do understand some of the frustration and disappointment from players who are very passionate about wanting a challenging, in-depth MMO that sets itself apart from WoW and its' clones. The game was much more challenging at launch and many aspects of it have been simplified. However, from a casual player's persepctive, I think EQ2 is the most in-depth, creative game on the market that also has a learning-curve that an adult who lacks some of the MMO experience of younger players can still access. However, there are still fairly frequent players who have been in since launch (Brasse for example) who play every MMO out there at one point or another and still call EQ2 home.

I started playing EQ2 a few months after launch and played for about 8 months before I took a break. I loved the game, but just needed to get some more sleep since I was flirting with addiction. About six months ago I reactivated my account and now I play about 8 hours/week. My main character was level 51 when I rejoined. I have played 2 weeks (about 16 hours) casually questing and gathering resources in Sinking Sands. I haven't even been to Maj'Dul yet, just the quests around the docks and the upper desert. I'm about 65% into Level 52 now and have been crafting and tinkering as well. I find the game visually amazing and am enjoying all the different aspects of gameplay there are. I'm having fun and that's what keeps me coming back. For me (39 y.o. with wife and three kids), EQ2 is everything I want in a game right now. I'll never get through all of the content because I don't play enough and even if I do, I'll never get all my alts to 80. I'm sure I'm in the minority of people who come to this site and post on forums, but I think there are lots of players like me who just play the game and nothing else...hence they are rarely heard.

Originally posted by PapaLazarou

Cause SOE released a buggy game missing tons of content that was needed and we all warned SOE but they pushed EQ2 anyways and it got owned by WOW and since then they've ruined most of what made EQ2 unique and made it into a WOW clone with crap PVP. They did the same thing to Star Wars Galaxies and doing the same thing to Vanguard and ruined Planetside due to a lack of direction, we wanted them to change the bases so we wernt capturing the same layout over and over agian. Yet SOE scrapped that idea and decided to go for stupid things like caverns and BFR's and all that shite.

Until someone with a clue takes over John Smedleys job then SOE will continue to suck.

At least get your facts right. Sigil ruined Vanguard, since SOE actually took over development that game is now playable.

LucasArts influenced the decision to patch the dreaded NGE, its not SOE alone. Never played Planet side so I can't offer anything about that but don't let SOE hate to spill over to the things that actually aren't their complete fault.

EQ2 is not a WoW clone. WoW was made with a lot of referrals to the original EQ and being EQ2 of course some things are going to be similar. Other aspects will be common among MMOs in general and there is plenty more that EQ2 does better (and some WoW does better) but a clone it is not. PvP was an afterthought in the first place so it being sucky doesn't surprise me but seriously, cool the hate.

I was there for launch and while it wasn't the best one (I've seen worse though...Vanguard....) it was not "missing tons of content" at the time. At the beginning it was almost literally an EQ clone, now they changed it and its suddenly a WoW clone. Some people will never be satisfied and its impossible for everyone to be happy.

It isn't a perfect game but the article is about the irrational bashing EQ2 has been going through because of the SOE label.

Ok I played Wow for 4 years since day one then switched to  "epic failure" of AoC, and just got EQII , I personally like it , it has loads of content and comunity is the most friendliest one I seen in any MMO where people actually take time to show you the ropes....I just started the game so maybe its still to early to have any meaningfull impressions....well many of those same "WoW flamers" in reality are same people that bitch if the game drastically differs from some basic concepts of design that Blizzard mastered first. Making things extremly complicated and hard-core on the end doesnt make $. 90% of players are in reality casuals with real life responsibilities. I would like to see a dev studio that offers "Hard-core" servers aka super dificult  so all those who bitch and complain about games being to easy for them can go and marinate their "e-peens" , lol wouldnt be suprised if those servers are complitely empty...btw back on the subject of EQ I find it extremely fun....that might be also that I still have bitter aftertaste of unplayable pos of AOC that after 24 patches or so still plays like crap , has no content and will make the newest gaming rigs scream : "Mommy" on the other hand EQII looks awesome on even lower end PCs has more content than AOC WOW and any other MMO combined toghether....zones are huge, you do not need to grind whatsoever because there are billions of quests....I do not know about pvp...but I heard that is really crappy...so far there is no rellally good fantasy MMO there that has polished PVP, WoW ' s PvP is a joke, AoC's PvP  is sad failure of a joke...so I gave up of looking for MMO that has balanced and challenging Pvp.

A nice artlcile indeed.

For my part, I know EQ2 since launch and still enjoy it. I guess I found a game that suits my needs regarding MMORPGs, even if sometimes, I go look elsewhere. I always return here. The develomement team is doing a great job and that game has truly improved since launched by releasing many great additions.

I hope they will keep up the good work. Maybe the players who complain the most will find a suitable game somwhere else isntead of polluting forums with their non-consturctive critics.

There is a game suitable for everyone's style of play somewhere. A little search will find it I'm sure. For my part, I'ms sticking to EQ2!

I have played eq2 since day one. I have 2 station accounts, which allow for more toons that way. I do not have a toon higher than 54, because I try and get as much into the game as possible. I do love this game, However  lol and I should really stress the HOWEVER.  I do agree wiith many of the complaints against the game.  ok  I lived through the huge ordeal with SOE and Star Wars Galaxies and this is alot to do with so many ugly feelings towards SOE and Smedley. 

First EQ2 and SWG were the two best games in the market EVER. Both had intense crafting and adventure skills and classes. The adult kid in all of us was given a online playground and we loved it.

With the doors open at swg before the game was ready, many complaints flooded in, Bugs needed fixing and the game needed tweeking and some content in a big way. The devs met the demands by changing the game and giving us the well known " CU " SOE was prepared for it, as EQ2 opened her doors the same month, knowing disgruntled players would leave and need somewhere to run to. And so we did.

Station access pass came along and made it easier to play both games. And after playing EQ2 and its intense game, we realized that SWG seemed to still be playable. EQ2 had tought us all how to group and make the game more dependant on full groups.

Now WOW comes along and Smedley professes his love for the game. He listens to those "vocal minorities" and decides that both games are way to hard and he needs to try what these guys are doing because he is having fun in the game.  He believed that we customers needed to change our ways of thinking and be converted to WOW's kind of play, And so we saw crafting in eq2 torn apart. Extra inscentives to grind our way to the top and do it fast. Now we no longer had sub classes we had to chose when we made our characters. And over at SWG ... well it was gutted and so Smedley got his way and so many friends and guild mates learned to call WOW home. Just as he wanted them to.

And trust me when you see someone complaining , you can bet there are 1000 more hating it. The "vocal minority" is not those complaining but the carebears who like things given to them and being the highest level, they dont appreciate the ride to the top nor want to play a game that actually uses brain cells. Ive been here in both games since the begining, I play in Eq2 now because I chose to take the long way. And in SWG i simply log in to relist everything that hasnt sold.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Decision after decision, John Smedley continues to prove he is the most unliked CEO of any MMO business.   One of these days Sony will wake up and fire him.  When a CEO consistently overrules game design issues to the detriment of the playerbase, especially when he is as ignorant of the genre as Smedley is, you are going to have hate.

EQ2 could have been a great game, instead it is just another mediocre attempt at competing with Wow with a small niche audience.

SOE used to be the top dog in this business for years, now they are taking a back seat to all the other major MMO producers.  It has to be obvious to everyone that SOE needs to change and change drastically to reverse this trend.

It is not just the SWG debacle that is drawing hate, it is what is being done to all the titles.  Look at their upcoming Agent offering, they are doing the cash shop revenue model for it.  How many people will play a MMO where people can buy their way to success?  Not many.

 

 

The sad fact is, there are games out there that do make a profit off of people that can buy object in the games, A guildie and I talked about this yesterday.  How we see more games moving in this direction,. Its my belief that the Developers will find that those games are very short lived and the real money is not there and the funny thing about it is... The majority of people that play mmorpgs, are not looking for a game that costs them money everyday and for every item. It takes the fun of earning it, away, or being one of  few whom actually own it.

You see you can take our games and make them easy and mindless and send us to the next game down the road, but making us reach into our pockets everyday instead of monthly will prove costly.... on their part. Not the consumer. I played the game " THERE " and I liked it and yes i spent alot of real cash fast and guess what, i stopped playing as quickly as i started because in order to get the full satisfaction from the game it was necessary for me to own certain items, well I still have a toon there, I can log in every day for free if i want. But I learned how to play the game, and hang out with my friends with out spending money. And the best part is , that now thats how everyone plays and  all the money the game used to make is now staying in our pockets instead of the manufactures
 

So SOE and other game marketers can go down that road, but in the long run they will simply be sending kids back  to older or differnt games or do I dare say ... The basketball court?

2 differnt genre's and 2 differnt types of customers

A little suggestion : if you want an old style mmo, try Vanguard..... I'm serious, no jokes

Why the Hate?
Daniel, I made an effort in your previous article to explain why the current state of EQ2 and generally the reputation of SoE is degrading with MOST (not all) of their subscriber base.

And I want to point out that we are talking mostly about disgrunted ex customers such as myself.
I am sure new customers such as yourself might find good things going on with the game, since you don't have the means to compare it to the way it used to be, after all you called yourself a newby due to lack of previous experience.

People like me has the ability to do this comparison.
I had a SoE account open since 2001, which I closed it soon after EQ2 ROK expansion.
I played EQ1, SWG, Vanguard and EQ2, so I paid a monthly fee to SoE for about 7 years.

I want to make something crystal clear before I start with the bashing.
I believe SoE is the best developer of MMO after Blizzard, so I don't hate SoE because is a big corporation, I have my reasons to do so, and others people has reasons too.

When I said that SoE is the second best MMO developer after Blizzard, I meant it.
I believe that the first concept SoE comes up with for their games are really good.
This is due to the fact that the original concept of their games are fairly challenging and have a fairly hard learning curve, means that the comunity need to interact much closer in order to achieve things and that creates something few other games can offer. A good Comunity.
Not even WoW can achieve that.
Also SoE games are usually released in time, with few bugs and fairly complete, I can witness this since I played almost all their betas (And no, SoE didn't develope Vanguard FYI)

Now, the problem with SoE, and that is the major problem with this company, it is called C.O.N.S.I.S.T.E.N.C.Y. (or lack of)
Yes, I did spell it out so if any of SoE executives are by any chance reading this thread they will be able to pick it up, cause they ignore it completely throughout the upgrading of all their major titles (EQ1, EQ2, SWG)

If there is something SoE does really badly is the complete overhaul of their games.
When EQ1, SWG and EQ2 have been launched, they were games for, what Brad McQuaid used to call, "Core" gamers.
By core gamers he meant people who like RPGs, people who like to be challenged while developing their character exactly the same way you would do in an offline RPG.
In short, those people see MMORPGs and RPGs a bit like an hobby rather than just games.

What Soe Attempted with SWG, EQ2 and partially EQ1, is to betray their original player base and go unashemefully for the Casual gamers.
In short they started a process which I call Wowisation of their game, because their intent is to magically trasform their "Core" gamers aimed MMO into something as close as possible to WoW.

If you are an old SoE customer you can see this clearly.
SWG is the most visible example of what I call Wowisation of their game.
What they did with NGE is everything you need to know about the policy of SoE towards their customers (you have tons of web pages and forum dedicated to it all over the internet).
But they didn't do it just to SWG, they partially did it with EQ1, which anyway is still the best game of their stable (a 10 y/o game), and they did it with EQ2, slowly, almost by stealth, they took away all the challenge that the game offered at the beginning.
RoK killed the game completely for most of the veterans, that was a blatant attempt to make EQ2 leveling as easy as WoW, by making soloing the best way to level fast (I have 3 lvl 70 in WoW so I recognised the path).
Anyway, people weren't bothered anymore to comunicate with each other there was no more need to seek other people help, therefore chats started to be deserted and the comunity started to deteriorate.
Most of the people who liked the comunity aspect of the game left, other were disappointed by the lack of details SoE put in the end game (mainly in the Raid difficulty, or non difficulty to be precise), and the too solo friendly approach of the last expansion.

Anyway, I don't want to bore you into details, I could write a 400 page book of what's wrong with SoE and their games, so I will focus on the main issue of SoE misfortunes.

So, I was talking about CONSISTENCY.
If you read carefully what I wrote above, you will understand why so many people hate SoE.

I DON'T WANT TO WASTE YEARS OF MY LIFE PLAYING  A GAME THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN TURNS INTO ANOTHER GAME (No, I am not shouting, this is the main point)

If SoE would have told me that EQ2 would be turned into a casual game in 2 years time, I would never had started, that's my beef with SoE.
And that's why people is so bitter with SoE.

Changing a game mechanic in the middle of the game lifespan, is something a company should NEVER do.
NEVER
SoE didn't do it just once, it did it 3 times.
It basically pissed all over their existing customer base to go in search of the Holy Graal (a slice of WoW market)
Fact is that they pushed they loyal customers to play WoW instead, since it is the original and the best at what it does, turning EQ2 in a poor souless copycat 
Yes after 7 years I closed my account and stopped playing EQ2 after RoK, instead I went to play the game EQ2 was desperately trying to copy
But if I had the choice to play EQ2 the way it was 3-4 years ago, I will go back without hesitation.
That was a truly awesome game, much better than WoW.
Pity SoE has been blinded by their own greed and could not see it.



Also for your information:

You can't find many negative posts of SoE in those forums because the Moderators decided that all the negative posts about SoE should be collected in a unique thread, the famous "We Hate SoE because......."
And you know why they did so?
Because 60% of the posts were complaints about SoE and their games
I believe SoE asked MMORPG.com to do so, because it was getting too much.
Under the same reasons they should have created the " I have a free buddy key" thread, Instead I don't see a collective thread for all the hundreds of "I have 200 Buddy keys" created by SoE employes in disguise trying to let as many people as possible try the game.
So that's SoE for you.


Bottom line is, youlike EQ2 as it is now.
Good for you.
Majority of players (me included) think WoW is still several step ahead of EQ2 in the casual market.
So I respect your opinion but the market says I am right, and SoE is wrong.

But please don't let me stop you enjoing the game, I am not envious, everyone deserve a good game to play.
Just pray that in a year time SoE won't change the game back into a more "core" friendly game, something that you probably won't like.
Then you will come back here and you will tell me all the good things you have to say about SoE eh?

The reason for that animosity on that first forum is due to the fact it's creator hates SoE and probably runs about 100+ account's just stoking the fire from each one.  He gets a few legitament followers but at the end of the day it is mainly one master user just spreading the hate monger beliefs.  The owner was probably done wrong or rubbed the wrong way by SoE.  WWW is serious  business, DOT COM.

I agree this is a well written article. 

However, for my taste in games, I do not agree that SOE is going down the right path with any of their games.  Please note, I said for MY tastes.  Where am I coming from?  I'm probably an old fogey compared to most of the writers and readers of this forum.  I'm 42 and my perception of adventure and role playing games is a product of my experience.

I grew up with paper and pen RPGs.  I started out with D&D, running to the toy store to buy the little 8x5 books as fast as Gygax could put them out.  I played Gamma World, Traveller, Rune, Robotech, BattleTech, and the White Wolf games.  None of these games were perfect.  There were balance issues, inconsistencies in lore, DMs who coraled you through a series of quests in which each puzzle or encounter only had one correct answer.  But we adapted.  We balanced things ourselves, we created content, we found DMs who created their own worlds and created quests with more than one correct answer and multiple exits from one campaign to another.

I played the RPGs on computers and those that were designed much like the classic RPGs were designed by players of those RPGs - adaptations were built in to allow better flow.  There were a few that ended up being static adventures where every player of the game had exactly the same experience, but I took those back to the store because they "didn't work on my machine" and traded them for same value - back when you could do that.

Then came the age of MMORPGs.  I had resisted for years.  Some of my old buddies were playing the original Everquest, but I resisted because of the nickname "Evercrack".  They told tales of a world that was seemingly endless and customized characters and great quests.  But I resisted.  Then Came Star Wars Galaxies.  I could resist no longer.  It was a fascinating game!  It had a rich crafting engine, harvesting of raw materials, harvesting of resources from creatures you killed, a rich lore,  customizable clothing and characters, and an open skill set that allowed you to be the best Bounty Hunter or (my favorite) a Droid Engineer, Trader, Scout, Architect.  Not master of course, but a little bit from each column.

Many of us were in love with that game and spent far too many hours playing it.  Some took it too seriously and became confused on which was them and which was character.  When the rules changed to make it "simpler and more starwarsy" we could no longer be who we were.  We had to change to what someone else decided was fun.  It happens.  Some, like me just left - a little bitter, but not vengeful.  Other's became a part of the anti-SOE league.

I don't see much hope for SOE's MMORPGs, they seem to be loosing the RPG and just becoming MMOs.  Plenty of people like that, and many companies are gambling that more people like MMOs than like MMORPGs.  The market does seem to indicate that.  FPS games on consoles sell better than most MMOs, with a few exceptions.  Open ended MMORPG sandbox games where everyone can have a different experience are expensive to produce and risky.  But, are those players who spend 50 bucks a game for console FPSs going to pay on a monthly basis to play an MMOFPS?  Probably not as many as buy the console equivalents. 

SOE also seems to be experimenting, as are most gaming companies who want into the MMORPG market, with duplicating elements of WoW and some of the more successful (read financially successful) Asian games that are more social and players can spend real money to buy items that differentiate themselves from other zombie clones walking around screaming "Dude!"  These ideas may make a successful online game, but they are not MMORPGs.

How did this happen?  Well the geeks who understand what sandbox MMORPGs are never really make much money, so they can't be sponsors.  Games are so expensive to create now days that money has to come from investors who have little to no knowledge of what these games are, they just know what brings in the cash.  If I'm going to invest money in your project I want that money back and then some.  It makes sense.  But a majority of investors are busy making the money that they will eventually invest in the games industry.    So they only thing they really have time to do is read financial reports of the companies who are making a bazillion dollars doing whatever they do and they say "Here's some money, make me something that looks and performs (financially) like that."  The game company is trapped.

Look at Hollywood.  All the blockbusters are formulaic dribble, with a few exceptions, that  remind you of a movie you saw three weeks ago.  People pay for it, it makes money, why should investors invest in any script that's not like those previous blockbusters.   Some break out of it by forming their own studios and financing their own projects with the help of friends, but very few.  Some of the independent studios are have been producing great movies that are original and thought provoking or fantastically humorous and entertaining.  Hopefully that indicates a change in consumer consumption of celluloid.   But films have been around for just over one hundred years and are typically not something that folks stop consuming when they grow older.

Games are different.  Most people who play MMOs are younger than I and didn't have the paper and pen and boardgames experience.  They grew up with Playstation and XBOX, that's gaming to them.  I would venture to guess that could explain a large amount of the evolution of MMOs.

What are the MMOs I enjoy?  Eve, Anarchy Online, Ryzom.  Complicated sandbox games in which role playing is an enhancement to the enjoyment.  Are those games successful?  Well Eve is very successful in their own right, but will probably not get WoW subscription numbers, nor is that their goal.  Anarchy Online is a shadow of it's former self, and is experimenting with selling items, and Ryzom has gone bankrupt with two different owners.  But all three communities have a large percentage of their 1st year original subscription base in the game.  What games do I look forward to?  So far Stargate Worlds and Fallen Earth because of the richness and depth of the worlds and what you can do in them.  Earthrise because it looks cool and I don't really know enough about it yet.

Do I hate SOE and their games?  No....I don't.  However, I don't have any faith that they will produce any games in the future that I will enjoy and spend what little time I do have available playing them. 

My hopes for the future?  That once the landscape is filled with the carcasses of tons of good MMORPGs and not so good MMOFPSs that the handful and monolithic giants with take some of their millions of profits and invest in the production of some good old fashion MMORPGs for us old folks and not care whether the game is making money or not because overall they're still raking in the dough with their WoW's and their EQIIs, and their Mr. Bongo's Crazy Hotel or whatever they throw out their that the mass market gobbles up.

When you look at the fraudulent activities perpetrated by SOE during the Star Wars Galaxies fiasco, known as the "new game enhancements", it's impossible to support a company who prides themselves with perpetual acts of deception. 

SOE has proven to me they only care about subscritpion numbers and lack regard for the fans who subscribes to their persistant world games.  I will NEVER spend money to play a game SOE is involved with, that includes the titles they only publish such as Pirates of the Burning Sea.  

In effect, SOE had committed wire fraud through the marketed lies to sell the expansion "Trials of Obi-Wan" for Star Wars Galaxies.  Yes, they did refund $, but that was only *after* it was clear they would be facing litigation. 

Word of mouth is a bitch and thank goodness SOE will continue to suffer for the despicable treatment of their own fans and subscribers. 

Originally posted by Ozmodan

  Look at their upcoming Agent offering, they are doing the cash shop revenue model for it.  How many people will play a MMO where people can buy their way to success?  Not many. 

Actually, the cash based micro transactions scheme was intended for ALL of their games, but there was a little problem.  RMT is standard in the Asian market and this is well known.  There are MANY mmo's which are purely based around this business model to facilitate a cash flow while remaining as Free To Play.  If you're to look at any number of those "free rmt mmo's" you'll see player bases beyond anything a Western market could ever fathom.
 

A Western market does not support this, yet. 

I find most of the haters are SWG haters and hold grudges because they feel smedley,in reality the whole SOE boards owes it to them to make the game JUST for them and not care about the rest of the community.

I can give honest answers to a lot of what is wrong wit hEQ2 but for the most part it is a great game that WOW copied for a reason.Yes SOE has started to make the game easier just as they did with SWG,however it is a smart decision to make changes when the SUBS are falling.The lamers who cry foul can blame ONLY themselves because a smart developer and there board will not sit idle while losing subs,that is a no brainer.I wish EQ2 was a little more challenging,but hey SOE has done a lot of things right by listening to the player base and other things in game that other games will copy because they are great ideas.

I think we are starting to see a lot more developers who are making brave decisions on designing there games but for the longest time ..EVERY developer copied EQ's template for designing a RPG game.Before any of these lamers decide to bash SOE why don't they bash the entire WOW population for paying a developer to copy exactly EQ and pan it off as a unique game.The only difference between Blizzard's product and SOE's is that SOE used nicer textures and graphics while WOW uses a 12 colour palette.

The most unique MMORPG ever created was FFXI and some call it a niche game.No matter what, Square was saved by SOE and licensed for the most popular console ever the playstation.You won't see the beloved Blizzard save or help any possible franchises out there now will we?How about the two youngsters CRASH BANDICOOT game?SOE is the one who has made the two  millionaire's by licensing the game to a 5 yr deal.,way back when some gaming sites gave it a bad rating.How about vanguard,once again SOE steps in and by all reports have made the game better.There is tons of franchises that SOE has saved or given the big break they needed.

For all the crying about SOE,that company has done more good things for gaming than all the other developers put together.Crying selfishly because you can't have a game the way you want it to be is just that >>>>SELFISH.

Why does anyone hate EQ2?

Overflow of hate from a mistake made by SOE/LEC.

If the changes to EQ2 were made not under the shadow of the failings of SWG, then it would be no where near as strong.  The changes might even be acceptable.

People were hurt bad by the CU and then the NGE in SWG.  That pain yeilds to strikes out at anything that might be associated.  Imagine questing for three years to find a Legendary Weapon to make you a power house or grinding for the same amount of time to unlock a Alpha Class profession only to have both made inert with one update.

But why would players who didn't play SWG hate EQ2?

Hate is infectious and it dosen't take much to turn a hand into a fist.

Interesting article that I will be sure to follow.

I have not read ALL of the responses to this yet that are posted above me but a few things did catch my eye.

First of all, my experience with EQ2 has been mostly very enjoyable. Those that complain that its too easy , stating it doesn't take long to level etc cannot possibly be playing the actual game. Anytime you spend all of your time grinding to lvl without enjoying the storyline behind the quests that you are doing you will lvl fast and miss the game.  This is with any MMO or RPG or whatever out there. To these people I would wholeheartedly suggest they find a different kind of game. One they can finish and move on while still being somewhat sociable.

I'm a  lore freak. I love to read about what I am doing and immerse myself in the game. I fancy myself a writer and use my characters in EQ2 to help me work out storylines. This is my enjoyment. I've been playing EQ2 well over 3 years now. I am never borad unless I go over the same material too many time with several toons but I need to is look forward and SOE never disappoints with bringing in new content on a regular basis. To those looking for "end-game" , I don't see one in sight.

To sum up Everquest 2's pluses and some small comparisons to WoW I have this to say; EQ2 is less cartoony in appearance providing a more enjoyable atmosphere for those of us who are not only older (30+) but hungry for a more "real fantasy" not a place that constantly reminds us we are in a game. We go to Norrath to escape the "grind" of our actual lives one we can control the outcomes somewhat better then our literal worlds but provides that fantasy element.  I thought that was the whole point of a game. I could be wrong.  The lore of EQ2 is quite vast and fascinating with some excellent writers behind the wheel.

The content is constantly being worked up and expansions are almost yearly. Amazing graphics. The RoK expansion has some of the most memorable and well done sunrises and sunsets. They would rival the real world. 

EQ2 is not a hollow game there is stability behind the visual  but There are always going to be problems and things a handful of people will complain about constantly but I find these are mostly younger new generation gamers. I would hope to educate my grandchildren better.  My own personal complaints are small but do tend to irritate me as I RP my way through life.  Why , for instance, can we not better interact without environments? Example; sitting in chairs. Were we able to actually do something more then look at the massive amounts of graphics in this area and arrange it like doll houses more people would gather together instead drifting past each other. There would be more of a point.

Why doesn't Sony advertise better? I see Wow on every shelf even though it has so little content in comparison. It is difficult to back my own point of view to my friends and family when they can't even find the game anywhere let alone a single commercial. The media is battered and fired with world of warcraft. This alone infuriates me.

This comment is turning into an article by itself so  I will end it here. I'm sorry that you stumbled across the worst of Eq2's population, squeeky wheels that they are. I am with Marron up there when he/she said the following ;

"because the majority of players do not want to lose an hour of playing time rebuilding their character due to an egregious death penalty.  This silent majority is too busy playing and enjoying the game to post up on the forums (generally).'

That would be me. You can find me on Oasis server. Say hello to Fallcon or Dawnrazor, just a razor slice of sunshine.

I was there at launch, and I have bought every expansion. I've given EQ2 many chances. The game is just soulless. At the beginning it was soulless, and it hasn't changed. There is a serious lack of depth in EQ2. The classes are boring, the gear is boring, and there is no one to group with do fun stuff with.

Another major complaint I have is the combat. Its like my avatar is hopped up on meth during combat. The camera view is horrible.

If anyone should hate SOE I should. Let's see; one of the first master Jedi on corbantis server. Mayor of a huge city, great cutomer base as a master bio-engineer, handler of fantastic rare pets that were made extinct but SOE let me keep them, leader and founder of a top guiild with over 300 members. The day NGE came out in fact within 2 hours it was all over for me. I said my said goodbye, logged out and cancelled my accounts (only mmo I ever played I had more then one account) Almost 3 years of work down the drain. I am an older player and took a few years off work to enjoy life a bit not retired but my friends joked I was (not that old yet). During that time I played SWG daily at least 8 hours a day everyday. I loved that game! So do we agree if anyone should "hate" SOE I should.

During that time I started playing EQ2. I was torn on my giving money to SOE after what they did to SWG and to me as a customer. However there was something unique about EQ2. So I kept playing and for a long time actually felt guilty playing. I turned off my hate for SOE and focued only on EQ2. Unlike many I felt SOE made EQ2 better and better. Yes more casual but for me that was great. I went back to work. I am a college art professor. I did not have the 8 hours a day anymore.

I started playing WoW and loved the casual nature of it. It was casual but if you wanted to master it it was a challenge. I never have seen evidence that SOE was trying to turn EQ2 into WoW. They tried that with SWG. They made EQ2 more casual friendly but left the hardcore events in game for those that want that challenge. This was a great move on SOE. Never once did I feel EQ2 was trying to copy WoW. EQ2 is a different experience then WoW that is why I played both. They never felt like the same game to me. Go on and hate SOE there is reason to but if you do you will miss out on one of SOE successes and that is EQ2. EQ2 is not perfect but for me it is one of the best shows in town. I may never subscribe to another SOE out of anger towards them but I am glad I tempered that anger and am able to play EQ2 for what it is. What it is, is a damn good time.

Originally posted by Ylva

Interesting article that I will be sure to follow.

I have not read ALL of the responses to this yet that are posted above me but a few things did catch my eye.

First of all, my experience with EQ2 has been mostly very enjoyable. Those that complain that its too easy , stating it doesn't take long to level etc cannot possibly be playing the actual game. Anytime you spend all of your time grinding to lvl without enjoying the storyline behind the quests that you are doing you will lvl fast and miss the game.  This is with any MMO or RPG or whatever out there. To these people I would wholeheartedly suggest they find a different kind of game. One they can finish and move on while still being somewhat sociable.

I'm a  lore freak. I love to read about what I am doing and immerse myself in the game. I fancy myself a writer and use my characters in EQ2 to help me work out storylines. This is my enjoyment. I've been playing EQ2 well over 3 years now. I am never borad unless I go over the same material too many time with several toons but I need to is look forward and SOE never disappoints with bringing in new content on a regular basis. To those looking for "end-game" , I don't see one in sight.

To sum up Everquest 2's pluses and some small comparisons to WoW I have this to say; EQ2 is less cartoony in appearance providing a more enjoyable atmosphere for those of us who are not only older (30+) but hungry for a more "real fantasy" not a place that constantly reminds us we are in a game. We go to Norrath to escape the "grind" of our actual lives one we can control the outcomes somewhat better then our literal worlds but provides that fantasy element.  I thought that was the whole point of a game. I could be wrong.  The lore of EQ2 is quite vast and fascinating with some excellent writers behind the wheel.

The content is constantly being worked up and expansions are almost yearly. Amazing graphics. The RoK expansion has some of the most memorable and well done sunrises and sunsets. They would rival the real world. 

EQ2 is not a hollow game there is stability behind the visual  but There are always going to be problems and things a handful of people will complain about constantly but I find these are mostly younger new generation gamers. I would hope to educate my grandchildren better.  My own personal complaints are small but do tend to irritate me as I RP my way through life.  Why , for instance, can we not better interact without environments? Example; sitting in chairs. Were we able to actually do something more then look at the massive amounts of graphics in this area and arrange it like doll houses more people would gather together instead drifting past each other. There would be more of a point.

Why doesn't Sony advertise better? I see Wow on every shelf even though it has so little content in comparison. It is difficult to back my own point of view to my friends and family when they can't even find the game anywhere let alone a single commercial. The media is battered and fired with world of warcraft. This alone infuriates me.

This comment is turning into an article by itself so  I will end it here. I'm sorry that you stumbled across the worst of Eq2's population, squeeky wheels that they are. I am with Marron up there when he/she said the following ;

"because the majority of players do not want to lose an hour of playing time rebuilding their character due to an egregious death penalty.  This silent majority is too busy playing and enjoying the game to post up on the forums (generally).'

That would be me. You can find me on Oasis server. Say hello to Fallcon or Dawnrazor, just a razor slice of sunshine.

 

Well said my friend. I wish I had a character slot left I would love to explore Norrath with you.
 

Originally posted by JYCowboy

Why does anyone hate EQ2?

Overflow of hate from a mistake made by SOE/LEC.

If the changes to EQ2 were made not under the shadow of the failings of SWG, then it would be no where near as strong.  The changes might even be acceptable.

I agree. I was scratching my head when I read this article.  It almost seems, nowadays, to simply hate SOE because its the "in' thing to do. EQ2, in my opinion, is a solid game with tons of content and can cater to the casual or the hardcore player at the same time.

What's funny to see is that before the NGE came along, EA was seen by many as the MMO devil with its killing of MMO titles and looked to SOE and EQ as the standard. Now the folks that hate SOE are looking to EA/Bioware to be their "savior" with their up and coming MMO. Funny how it comes full circle.

EQ2 is the best, the more solid and complete MMORPG out there.

People that can't see or understand that really have some problem...

If you are among the crowd long enough you realize one thing: no matter what you do in the internet, there will always be jerks. I ignore them. Debating with people who are psychologically fixated in projecting all their hate and RL frustration on one object, in this case SOE, cant be argued with. It is a mental problem, and they need a therapist. Its a reflex, a programm. There is not talking to them. I know. I tried.

SOE is objective not a better or worse game company than any others. Period.

Originally posted by eccoton

If anyone should hate SOE I should. Let's see; one of the first master Jedi on corbantis server...

 

 

 

This post has more truth in it than even the author probably realizes. This sense of entitlement is why people hate SOE, and yes, most of it is residue from what happened with SWG, tied together with the all too common misconception that this world and the people in it owe you something.  The fact that this player, and thousands more like him, hang on to their 'accomplishments' (if you can call holo-grinding or village-grinding a Jedi an accomplishment) prior to the NGE like they're some sort of badge of honor is indicative of a mindset that is either unwilling or unable to adapt to change, and unable to comprehend basic fact that sometimes life sucks.

Yes, what SOE did to SWG was brutal, and ultimately unnecessary. Yes, those of us that were there from the beginning (and even those who came later) all lost something, whether it was time, friendships, money, or all of the above.  What a lot of people also lost was their dignity, and their common sense, as they now hop from one forum to the next, foaming at the mouth towards anyone who doesn't agree that Sony is the anti-Christ.

I'm glad this poster that I quoted can at least separate EQ2 from what happened to his characters in SWG, but the way he begins his post is unfortunately a common thread that runs amok amongst the hordes of pissed off SWG vets who continue to feel urinated on by the gods because they lost their precious Elder Jedi and whatever else. 

Sony has made some good games, and may even make a few more, no matter how much certain folks may wish otherwise.  This is not coming from a Sony fanboy, although I'm sure those charges will be leveled shortly, but rather from someone who was burned by SWG, but was also able to move on, adapt, and not QQ about it for the next three years.

To the original poster, good luck navigating the hate if you choose to play, or write about, SOE games. I'm afraid it will always be there unless these SWG vets suffer a sudden breakout of common sense, as internet forums bring out the absolute worst in people more often than not.

/salute

I stopped reading after I noted a trend and I started counting.

SWG  HAS BEEN MENTIONED 30 TIMES

Now maybe I'm the crazy one, but this was an article about EQ2. What I see happens is people burned from SWG laying blanket statements down about SOE ruining everything else.  So fine. Lets talk SWG.  I was a Bio Engineer and Creature Handler I was two professions that no longer exsisted when the NGE came out.  I was mad and I quit that day. 

 But I wasn't so blinded by rage (Remember, it is a game) To realize two points. The team that makes SWG does not make EQ2.  And I'm not even angry at the EQ2 team, they were doing what was told. LA was the one that wanted a carbon copy of World of Warcraft, they saw the numbers, LA wanted a piece of that. Lucasarts is far from innocent of exploiting a game and  making a game for the garunteed profit "Star Wars" will bring in, no matter how good  (or bad) it is.

So four years later players still complain about the evils of SOE. The evils which basically translate to one event that was more likely an act of Lucasarts then SOE. I moved on, I play EverQuest 2 and I enjoy it.  

Originally posted by auvii

"find something you like and have fun"

 

Your right that quote does do the trick, except not how you put it. Orginally EQ2 was its own game and was something people liked, then SOE decided they wanted money, obvious I suppose. Playing the game now feels dirty and unnatural. I Logged in and felt as if I was playing a very very shity WoW mod. Its sad that SOE ruined such a great game.

 

Maybe EQ3 will come one day and make its own mark.

        EQ2 had it s niche game then decided when it was losing subs to WoW that they would incorporate ideas that WoW had in hopes that it would lead players to its game......The end result was a greatly dumbed down version of the original EQ2.......The one thing I learned when I played EQ1 was that SOE is definitely a business and they are in it for the money only......Most changes they make are for the benefit of the company not for the player.......I have to agree with the poster I quoted in that EQ2 now feels like your playing a bad WoW version.....Pretty much everything is soloable and the group content is too easy...... EQ2 was originally aimed at the more hardcore player but now is geared for the casual.

I am an exceptionally outspoken SOE "hater" if you want to call me that. I am frequently the first to bash the posts I find here, and my opinions are harsh and to the point...But first let me give you a little background about myself and my MMO history with SOE games..

I am male, 45 years old, own my own I.T. company and love gaming...My wife also plays MMOs. Currently we have 2 station access passes and bounce between EQ1 and EQ2. We did try Vangard for a short time and found it dissapointing. That was not SOEs fault and I have never bashed SOE for it. ....

I have been Playing SOE games (well Verant/989 games) since 1999 with the release of EQ1. I was a senior guide in the EQ1 guide program until SOE allowed the head of the program to grow power hungry and pissed off most of the guides to the point they left. Still, after that I LOVED SOE...I attended 6 EQ Fanfaires, I lived for the game. Finally after 5 years of playing hundreds of hours a month I took a break (at the release of PoP). When I returned 6 months later I found that many of my friends had become dis enchanted with the game because they were being forced to play for flags that only raiders could obtain. The game had become very linear and many people were pulling the plug. Some went to Dark Ages of Camelot, some waited for the release of EQ2. I continued to play until EQ2 release and then switched. Right from the start I knew EQ2 was going to be different...Not bad, just not the same...It was not  as exciting as the first time I made my first EQ1 Barbarian Warrior and logged into Halas....But non the less I was going to give it a chance to win me over. I joined a casual guild, I made friends, I joined the community and learned how to tweak my toons...Still, it took me weeks to attain level 35 with my first character. During this time SOE was answering a lot of questions about the future of the game, what we could expect, and they were fixing a lot of bugs...One of the things that excited me the most was Smed's promise of 4-5 adventure packs per year and at least 2 expansions, with the level cap increasing to 100 within 2 years...WOW!! with a world growing at that rate we would never get bored and there would always be new content to explore!  What a disappointment when it didn't happen....

Then the game started to morph....spirt shards were removed, trade skills were made a bit easier, almost all equipment was made attunable, classes were nerfed, sub classes were removed....It was clear that the game was being made easier....still it was fun...But we weren't seeing the promised adventure packs and expansions at the rate they were promised and when expansions and adventure packs were released, a large portion was rehashed NPC models and it was clear very little imagination was going into the development.

Server populations began to dwindle. There was a server merger after a little more than a year....compared to EQ1 that didn't not have a server merger due to declining player base until after the release of EQ2....basically almost 6 years...it was clear that players were dis-enchanted....still SOE did little to nothing to stop the exodus. Almost no advertising outside of gamer publications. A trip to the local software monger would show very few stores were even carrying EQ2 and it's expansions. Even when new expansions were released, stores like Best Buy and EB Games had limited numbers on hand. When I went to buy the retail box of KoS I had to go to 3 different Best Buys to get 2 copies. I was told that they only ordered 10 per store....I live in a very large metro area with 7 best buys within 30 minutes in any direction of me...So for 4 million people there were 70 copies??? And SOE wonders why they have so few players?

Then the price went up...WAY up....$30 a month for station passes....We were already paying $25 a month just so we could have more toon slots....The lack thereof was enough to agrivate a lot of people, SOEs unwillingness to give us more smacked of greed, and their excuse of not having enough disk space or data base storage just angered us more, because it just wasn't (isn't) true....Disk storage has never been less expensive than it is now...and with the decline in server population there is really no excuse for this except for money grubbing...

So expansions are released with a level cap increase only every 24 months, but only enough new content to explore for a few months at best...People started leaving for other games because of boredom. relative few players want to wait 20+ months to increase their levels, so server populations dropped, making it very hard on some servers to find groups....SO SOE released an expansion (RoK) that didn't really require full groups to progress to the next level cap...The made hundreds of super easy quests (with a few semi hard ones) that could be solo'ed for many classes, duo'ed for a healer and anyone else....Instead of fixing their lack of population, they just designed the game to be played with fewer people in the group...

So a few months after the release of RoK they introduce (with great fanfaire) 2 levels of "epic" weapons (which in itself is not possible, since only one weapon can be truly "epic") and we were told that NO ONE had been given any inside information as to where the starting quest NPCs were located or the strategy required to kill the bosses to obtain the weapons....Then Ne Plus Ultra on Guk server is awarded the Mythical version of the epic weapon 4 (that's FOUR) days after the release. it's found out that SOE devs spoon fed their members not only starting locations, but how to defeat the boss mobs by EXPLOITING abnormallities in the game code....When players complained on the official forums, SOE shut down the complainers with their Men In Black moderators and swept the entire episode under the rug. The cheating Devs continue to this day to not only work for SOE on the EQ2 project, but atleast one is still a member of Ne Plus Ultra...

Now lets look at the company outside of the game....They farmed out their GMs to another country where english (the language that most of their players speak) isn't the native tongue, the "GMs' there were given canned response letters to send to the players upon recieving a petition and most of the GMs didn't even play the game, let alone know how it worked. In game petitions took days to be answered, usually requiring several replies before the issue was settled. I personally had several petitions go completely unanswered. They attempted to fix this with more knowledgable GMS, but now many petitions still go unaswered or the repsonce recieved has little to do with the issue at hand. SOE has little to no customer service skills, and doesn't appear to think they require any. There is no in game support at all, no server GMS, no guides to speak of (the guides they do have are not there for customer support, they are there for in game events that rarely take place) Calling SOE about billing issues can take weeks to have corrected, and if you so much as whisper about their lack of customer service on their official forums, you will get a warning and your post will be deleted, locked or moved. The official forums are over moderated, and with few exceptions, if you post doesn't make the game sound like it's all duckies and bunnies it's moved to some obscure  board, or removed. I personally have been baned from the boards because of my disention. I now post there with my wife's screen name, but I am very careful not to piss in SOEs ceral....too much..

I could go on and on about the reasons I have turned from SOE fanboi to a disgruntled soon to be ex customer but I won't bother. The bottom line is that SOE is a publicly held and traded company. Like all Sony products, EQ2 is out to earn a profit. Share holders and the board of directors won't stand for a product that doesn't. If enough people get fed up and leave, EQ2 will be terminated. It would serve SOE well to remember that customers make paydays possible. Their lack of concern for customer service, inability to keep their word, and their unwillingness to punish cheaters will be their demise.

So in a nut shell that should answer your question....Why the hate? because SOE has become a company out of touch with it's customers...Of course there will always be the fanboiz and bootlickers who think SOE can do no wrong, who will use any argument to justify what SOE does, or does not do...but in the end SOE will have to answer to the problems it created for itself....

Originally posted by Interitus

I stopped reading after I noted a trend and I started counting.  

And those of us who used to play SWG know what SOE thinks of their player base:  Reading is hard...
 

As for EQ2, I had a Station Pass and played EQ2 for several months early after its launch.  I quit for several reasons, drastic changes to the game play and being banned for asking for help from a moderator in the launchpad.  The mod was ignoring pleas of help from several users (myself: the game client was crashing soon after launching and the entire GUI was "messed up") but appeared quite enthralled to talk about cupcakes.  I remained logged into the launchpad for close to an hour and asked for help every 10-15 minutes, as well, I had sent 2 PM's to the mod about 20 minutes apart before being kicked from the channel without reason.  When I logged back in, the mod was still talking about "cupcakes" (I am serious) and when I asked if I were able to get some help their direct responce was: If you ask for help one more time I am going to ban you!

Because of this treatment, even though it was prior to the "combt upgrade" & the "new game enhancements" in Star Wars Galaxies, I feel that my opinion and stance regarding SOE are sound.  The irony is that SOE later committed Wire Fraud in an attempt to cashout on as many SWG subscribers as possible.  These actions are well documented and fact. 

I do not "hate", but nor will I forget.  With this, I exercise my ability to affect this company in the best way that matters - word of mouth is a bitch!  :)

Originally posted by jedijef

Originally posted by eccoton

If anyone should hate SOE I should. Let's see; one of the first master Jedi on corbantis server...

 

 

 

 

This post has more truth in it than even the author probably realizes. This sense of entitlement is why people hate SOE, and yes, most of it is residue from what happened with SWG, tied together with the all too common misconception that this world and the people in it owe you something.  The fact that this player, and thousands more like him, hang on to their 'accomplishments' (if you can call holo-grinding or village-grinding a Jedi an accomplishment) prior to the NGE like they're some sort of badge of honor is indicative of a mindset that is either unwilling or unable to adapt to change, and unable to comprehend basic fact that sometimes life sucks.

Yes, what SOE did to SWG was brutal, and ultimately unnecessary. Yes, those of us that were there from the beginning (and even those who came later) all lost something, whether it was time, friendships, money, or all of the above.  What a lot of people also lost was their dignity, and their common sense, as they now hop from one forum to the next, foaming at the mouth towards anyone who doesn't agree that Sony is the anti-Christ.

I'm glad this poster that I quoted can at least separate EQ2 from what happened to his characters in SWG, but the way he begins his post is unfortunately a common thread that runs amok amongst the hordes of pissed off SWG vets who continue to feel urinated on by the gods because they lost their precious Elder Jedi and whatever else. 

Sony has made some good games, and may even make a few more, no matter how much certain folks may wish otherwise.  This is not coming from a Sony fanboy, although I'm sure those charges will be leveled shortly, but rather from someone who was burned by SWG, but was also able to move on, adapt, and not QQ about it for the next three years.

To the original poster, good luck navigating the hate if you choose to play, or write about, SOE games. I'm afraid it will always be there unless these SWG vets suffer a sudden breakout of common sense, as internet forums bring out the absolute worst in people more often than not.

/salute

Jedijef,
 

You totally missunderstood my post. I am not a hater that is the point. I was pointing out that if anyone had a reason I do.I lost a lot more then the haters. I pointed out those accomplishments to show I put tons of time and effort into the game and was mad enough and rightfully so to leave the game. I do not hang onto accoplishment in games that is crazy they are just games. I do not hate SOE I still play one of their games. I was trying to make a point for this thread.

The point was, I was mad for a few days but got over it after all it is a game. With that said I probably would not play another SOE game because of poor customer serve and other issues not becasue of SWG something that happened years ago. Sorry maybe I did not word it right but I was trying to point out that hating a game is silly and a waste of time. You need to read the whole post in context of the original article.  While you had a good response it has nothing to do with me, or how I play and view games. After all these are just that games. At my age I do not have time to hate anyone or anything hate is a waste of time no matter what context it is in. Sorry you misunderstood. By the way I have returned to try SWG a few time and never last more then a couple hours. Not because I hate SOE I simply think SWG in it's current form is a crappy game. That has nothing to do with what happened with NGE.

Thank you all for your comments. I'm getting more and more input here.

And excuse the screenshot. My editor wants me to take them and put them in the articles, and I'm not too bright with them. :)

I am a card carrying, dues paying, registered and voting member of the SOE sucks club. We can start with the debacle that was SWG and move forward to EQII's condoned sales of items for real money. If you like their games, grats. I have a lifetime personal boycott and will never give them another dime.

Miustus, if you went to EQ2flames and could not understand why so many there "hate", then you did not research the recent past there. You might want to do so in a follow-up article.

www.eq2flames.com/hall-flames/22038-how-will.html

www.eq2flames.com/general-gameplay/22153-recap-summarization-recent-events.html

www.eq2flames.com/general-gameplay/22758-why-all-hate-little-perspecitve.html

Did anyone mention how the developers lied about implementing the Froglok quest (the one to unlock Frogloks as a playable race) for at least six months?  SOE is a company that is outright hostile towards their customers.  No company, that isn't a Hollywood caricature, should feel the need to decieve their customers to the extent that SOE has.

Here's a post I made a while back (actually a repost of a post from over a year ago):

www.mpog.com/discussion2.cfm

Most of the information in that post is still current (I think the only major change is that the DCUO lead designer and producer have been replaced for the at least fourth and third time).

It used to be that EQ2's dev team and community personnel were the most customer friendly of any SOE product.  That may still be the case, but after several folks moved on, the dev team and community personnel are now more in line with the rest of SOE, hostile towards their customers.

EQ2 is easily the second best WoW knockoff currently available (LotRO is the best WoW knockoff).  The problems lie with the company's employees and especially the management that has fostered such hostility towards their customers.  I've yet to see another company's president, in any industry, publicly state that his company needs to improve customer relations as many times as John Smedley has.  Unfortunately, the changes Mr. Smedley has stated time and again need to be made have yet to materialize.

After coming back to EQ II for the free month, then paying for one month I have just cancelled my account (again). No I'm not going to start a "I hate EQII" post.. The reason I cancelled had to do with the cost of the game (in particular why are Australians changed AUD$22.99 when with the current exchange rate the US$14.99 comes out more like AUS$16.00).

Ive been an avid fan of EQ from the times of Kunark, and decided  to play EQ2 way later from its release due to being addicted to WoW for some time.

The only thing I just couldnt get buy was the performance, The BSOD (Blue Screens Of Death) just destroyed my game-play experience, It most likely was my system spec, but friends of mine with different systems were having the same problem ,with alot of others.

Besides that EQ2 was pretty fun and maybe one day will decide to try it yet again.

How precisely is Everquest 2 a World of Warcraft "knockoff?" Wasn't Everquest 2 released first?

Originally posted by Miustus

How precisely is Everquest 2 a World of Warcraft "knockoff?" Wasn't Everquest 2 released first?

It sure was but only about a week. To WoW fanbois everything is a WoW "Knockoff". As I see it EQ2 and WoW both borrowed from Asheron's Call.

Originally posted by Miustus

How precisely is Everquest 2 a World of Warcraft "knockoff?" Wasn't Everquest 2 released first?

Yep, SOE released the Beta version to the public, 2 weeks before Wow to get the jump on Blizzard.  Unfortunately it took them a year to get the game out of beta, during which time they made a number of adjustments to make it more Wow like.

I DON'T WANT TO WASTE YEARS OF MY LIFE PLAYING  A GAME THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN TURNS INTO ANOTHER GAME

That quote jumped out at me (it's in caps and red afterall...) and that seems to be a common complaint of SoE but didn't World of Warcraft do the same thing?  It's been a while since that happened, but I was on a business trip at the time and came back to a different game and whining guildmates.

MMMOGs are "living entities" in a sense and do evolve and change.  The EverQuest of 9 years ago isn't the EverQuest of today.  The same applies for Ultima Online (they have Elves!  Horror of horrors!) 

Of course the SWG NGE is the HUGE black mark on SoE's report card and they do have more games published and are hence a larger target.

The only constant is change.

The more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?

Originally posted by brostyn

I was there at launch, and I have bought every expansion. I've given EQ2 many chances. The game is just soulless. At the beginning it was soulless, and it hasn't changed. There is a serious lack of depth in EQ2. The classes are boring, the gear is boring, and there is no one to group with do fun stuff with.

Another major complaint I have is the combat. Its like my avatar is hopped up on meth during combat. The camera view is horrible.

Well sir.nobody can tell you different,it is your decision and all that matters .We can not sit here and tell you that you must like the game nope.HOWEVER :D..everything you say you dislike about EQ2 is EXACTLY the same things you will see in 99% of all other MMORPG's and in most cases ,far worse.So what  exactly is your point?that all MMORPG's are done badly?that i could accept,but targeting one game for that sort of displeasure is extremely unjust.Souless? again i don't get that one,EQ2 has more LORE than any game out there,that gives a game soul, character and meaning.

I will agree with there not being many players anymore to group and do fun stuff,but that is not a game design fault.I mean after all,the majority have chosen to play the exact same game in WOW but they get to enjoy a 12 colour palette for textures lol.People move to various games for many weird reasons a lot it being mere followers of there friends or just joining a game that claims to have a lot of players.Nowadays there is a much larger contingent joining F2P games,just because they have given up hope on finding that perfect game.

For myself if EQ2 had FFXI's battle system and dual class ability i would never search for another game ever.It would be IMO the perfect game.

I believe the hate is mainly due to the game one loved be changed to resemble something else - like SWG got "WoWified".

And as these changed games persist, the players that used to love them can persist with their hate.

But what I don't get is them replying to threads that have absolutely nothing to do with them (like a newbie asking for help) just to trash that game. To me, it's a bitter person, blinded by hate, wanting to drag everyone around them to the bottom of the pit where they find themselves.

I got game few days ago after playing list mediocre MMOs before EQ2 and I love it , it has so much content that equals at least 10 overhyped MMOs right now on the market, just got  lv 20 and had a blast, didnt notice a problem with grouping and comunity is awesome

I have played EQ2 on and off since launch. I have tried every other major fantasy based mmorpg that has come out since and I keep going back to EQ2. Say what you want about it, it is a great game. Sure, there are things I would change, but there is far more to like about it than any other mmorpg I have tried so far. The community, the player base, puts all others to shame as far as atmosphere and friendliness are concerned. I see people here bashing it left and right everytime something positive is said about it and have to wonder how many of them played it for more than a week.  i see now that most of it is spawned by a hatred of SOE in general. This game, or any other produced by SOE, will never get a fair shake from most of negative posters here. I have had issues with some of the things SOE has done myself, but I'm not going to let it ruin a good game for me. For those of you who tried it and just didn't like it, I can respect that.

Originally posted by PapaLazarou

Cause SOE released a buggy game missing tons of content that was needed and we all warned SOE but they pushed EQ2 anyways and it got owned by WOW and since then they've ruined most of what made EQ2 unique and made it into a WOW clone with crap PVP. They did the same thing to Star Wars Galaxies and doing the same thing to Vanguard and ruined Planetside due to a lack of direction, we wanted them to change the bases so we wernt capturing the same layout over and over agian. Yet SOE scrapped that idea and decided to go for stupid things like caverns and BFR's and all that shite.

Until someone with a clue takes over John Smedleys job then SOE will continue to suck.

Hey, kid... welcome to MMO's. These are not problems inherent in SOE. Please stop. Go play a game more to your liking and stop bashing it every chance you get. It just makes you look bad.

Originally posted by goemoe

Every game I try sends me back to EQ2. Best Fantasy MMO out there. Can't understand all the hate too.

I have to /agree wholeheartedly! I've been with EQ2 since launch and it's still the fantasy game I come back to after trying all of the big guns out there. WoW, LotRO, AoC, DAoC, Vanguard, FFXI, etc...
 

IMHO no other MMO meets what EQ2 has done in the past 4 years; including it's predecessor that spawned it! Plain and simple.

Well I don't think it is only SOE, but I really think the target market of MMO's is what makes new generation MMO's nothing like the original Everquest or Final Fantasy XI.  Games produced today are for the less hardcore which leaves very little challenge to do anything.

AoC and Warhammer are great examples of MMOs recently released that are just too easy. I work 8 hours a day just like any typical person, but I was able to complete cap level before even my account could even finish the first months free trial.  This leaves me with a game that I would say "I have essentially defeated".  Even back when I use to play WoW, I spent a year getting a full set of raid gear.

Many people may not be inclined to do guild raids for bosses or actually spend time to get somewhere in the game - but I personally think that is what makes a MMO great.  When everyone and their mom can have the best epic gear in the game, what is the point?  If you can have end character progression before even the end of the first month, you are leaving very little game left to play.

I really think this industry is already over-saturated with games for casual players.  How about making a game more challenging.  I honestly don't want to be cap level till a year later after picking up the game (Like EQ1). I want to spend 5 to 6 hours just to clear through a dungeon's wing and I really hope it would take atleast 20-30 people to do so.

Without these challenges, all you will see are reproductions of failures like AoC, Tabula Rasa, and new iterations of once good MMOs (like WoW or EQ2).  I dunno if anyone else has put together a trend, but every mmo that majority of the populace would or have said has been good was difficult and took time (original EQ, FFXI, original WoW) with the only negative complains from the people that don't want to put in the time to get raids working.  I think MMO companies need to make games that last, instead of the instant gratification that can be gained from playing Gears of War or Left 4 Dead.  

Until a game that really matters comes out I guess, I am sitting in a station in Eve waiting for my skill to go up I suppose (which is the complete opposite of the spectrum and I still think the game is a bit too slow =\) 

SOE and their list of shit mmorpgs...

Ruined...

- Planetside
- Everquest

Ruined and released a buggy mess...

- SWG
- EQ2

Then the list of what was the point of these crap mmorpgs?

- PotBS
- MxO
- Vanguard

Everquest sucks because it's a bland generic world with horrible graphics and character models. Also all the zoning makes the world feel soo fake and ruins the immersion so that in turn makes me not give a shit about exploring it and so I don't. It doesn't help that SOE often just make empty rooms and stick a few mobs in there and calls it new raid content lol. Oh yeh and the combat of EQ2 sucks and the PVP isn't good and for me all online games need some sorta good PVP.

I'm not part of the SOE hater club myself but they do tend to make alot of decisions that tick me off.  While I didn't play SWG I had contemplated it until they destroyed it and rolled it into a game that was uglier than its beta form.   Hence I won't play SWG.

I loved EQ1 it was challenging but fun, I could do things solo but often needed a group to really dig into a good spot to hunt or try to figure out hidden things.   Like many games of its time it had pretty much nothing to help you with groups etc but there were always people it wasn't hard to find a good group and get yourself into a guild just by hanging around.

EQ2 was several times harder and made it impossible to do just about anything solo in the early levels with their group system completely crap and horrible system requirements it really hurt the game during its first few months.  The Guild system was one of its few awsome features that worked for the most part right at launch but the fact they had such a pretty guild interface ready made it really alienating for people who were coming into the game without an existing friend base. 

It needed some of the changes that happened but alot of the recent changes like faster leveling & xp, class changes that removed what made making and progressing them a thoughtful process, and the overwhelming and unncessary crafting nerfs sealed the reason I havent' ever fully committed to the game.  I went back and forth for a while enjoying the game but just couldn't bring myself to commit which is sad.

Maybe someday I'll go back just to have some fun but I'll never feel the love and dedication to the game as I did with its previous incarnation or even EQ1. 

SOE has the capability to make good games they just have to many greedy overlords.  

SOE has earned it's hate for good reasons.

EQ2 is an actual decent game though.

Sadly, it'd probably have 3x the subs if their publisher weren't SOE, and the leader NOT Smed...