| ESRB:Dungeons & Dragons Online: Eberron Unlimited News - Turbine Sues Atari Over DDO
Posted by Michael Bitton on Aug 26, 2009 | 122 comments in our forums
In a report appearing over at the Courthouse News Service, it has been revealed that Turbine is suing Atari over Dungeons & Dragons Online.
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Turbine alleges that Atari allowed for Turbine to pursue the DDO: Unlimited project in exchange for payments, as well as future royalty payments, but had no intention of devoting enough resources to promoting and distributing the title.
As a result of this, Turbine is accusing Atari of not living up to their contractual obligations, and alleges this was done purposefully so that Atari could claim Turbine was in breach of contract when the project ultimately suffered due to Atari not living up to their end of the deal. This would allow Atari to terminate their relationship with Turbine and pursue a new D&D project at Turbine's expense.
Turbine was contacted for a statement, but as a legal matter they cannot comment on the particulars of the case.
If this is true, that's pretty low of Atari to do.
I wonder how this is going to effect the launch of D&D??
It seems to me that this is going to put things back.
There's no telling how long they could be in court. The article doesn't mention anything about a length of time or how far they have gone with the case, or if they putting things on hold for this issue. These are details that we really need in news like this. Otherwise, it just seems like idle gossip. Not my style, personally.
It almost seems as similar what Hanbitsoft did to FSS over Hellgate. Well I'm a sub for D&D and have never been a fan of f2p models. Though in this case I hope it works out. If the article is true however, I might consider a boycott of Atari products all together. Just doesn't seem fair.
Just a heads up, but someone alluded to Atari people losing their jobs. There won't be any job losses due to action by Turbine, at Atari. Atari is kind of like EA, in that they are a publisher; not so much a developer. Turbine is a developer. In fact, Atari is a company whose business practices make EA look good. That is why the Atari guys are generally shunned by most devs. Unless convincing evidence comes out to alter the view, I would have to go with Turbine on this one, just based on what everyone in the industry knows about Atari, and how underhanded they can be.
Thank you for this post. It's interesting to know that Atari is being sued by Turbine for this.
I don't really trust court verdicts to be an accurate reflection of the truth, and of course there is still not one out, but considering Atari's track record the case rings true already now. I wouldn't mind seeing Atari get a whack over their corporate nose.
I look forward to more info as the case unfolds. Thanks!
Yeah, it was a shady thing to do on Atari's part. But what is the underlying message here? I think it's that Atari realizes that DDO in it's iteration isn't a very viable MMO. If the heavily instanced game as it was made (granted I haven't played it since a few months after it's release) was in such a state they had to open up a F2P portion to their business model, well they're hurting for subscriptions in my opinion.
I bet Atari wants to see the DnD license in a more traditional MMO setup, with a large world and multiple cities and such. To be honest, I do too. Granted, it'd have to be 3.5 ruleset or below.
Wow...this is bad for Turbine. And bad for DDO :(
I just hope Turbine wins this one, and maybe even close damn Atari ... but than again Atari just bought Cryptic...
Serves them well for going down with Bill Roper...that guy just invites catastrophies...
Anyway, rotten news
Oh crap! If Atari bought Cryptic, and the rumor is that Cryptic's "other MMO" they are working on is DnD based, then this makes sense, lol! It's not right, but it makes sense.
link to Filings: http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/08/26/Atari.pdf
Yes, you propose an interesting scenario of how things could play out. On the one hand, I feel bad for Turbine and am tempted to boycott all Atari future products... However, on the other hand, if Atari does win, they could do whatever they want w/ the IP, and maybe hopefully make a new MMO with it that's possibly in a persistent world as apposed to instanced. Maybe this could work out to the advantage of D&D fans overall.
If Atari does win, well maybe it would be in the best interest of the IP to shut down D&D and make a new MMO from scratch... well who knows at this point.
I guess we'll all find out soon enough what will happen after the court's decision.
Oh crap! If Atari bought Cryptic, and the rumor is that Cryptic's "other MMO" they are working on is DnD based, then this makes sense, lol! It's not right, but it makes sense.
Incredible... is this The Curse of Bill Roper at work on games not even associated with him? Will is somehow and mysteriously spread across to board to unrelated titles? Being "flagshipped" once was bad enough. O.o
I hope Atari succeeds in their nefarious plan. I love D&D more than any other IP ever, but DDO is disgustingly bad. Turbine ruins everything and I hate them. I would love to see a new D&D project come up.
I really would too, but I am nearly certain it would be 4.0. Shame, but almost certain.
From what I remember, DDO isn't distgustingly bad at all. It's quite competent as an MMO where you can explore and actually go dungeon crawling. Remember Dungeons & Dragons?
At least the first several levels were nice. I don't know about the rest of the game content.
Can anyone name any other MMOs with similar freedom when it comes to exploring, climbing, jumping, swimming? And not just as a gimmick either, but as a necessary part of the game that rewards you?
A large world might be cool, but it seems it's something they could add if they wanted to / had the resources. No need for the game to be completely trashed and remade.
I think everyone should read the Filing http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/08/26/Atari.pdf and if even half of that is truth then I hope Atari will be put out of buisness for good, seems like a very shady company.
"Atari’s conduct as described herein not only constitutes a breach of its obligations
under the Agreements, but also constitutes actionable fraud. By this lawsuit, Turbine seeks to
recover in excess of $30 million in losses occasioned by Atari’s breach and wrongful conduct.
Turbine also seeks a declaration that Atari’s claim for additional royalty fees and purported
grounds for termination of the parties’ Agreements are unfounded and without basis in the
Agreements."
Turbine even tried to help Atari when they financial troubles...
"At one point, in or about September 2006, Atari owed Turbine millions of dollars in outstanding
royalties which Atari told Turbine’s former Chief Financial Officer, Peter Faubert, that Atari
simply did not have the money to pay. In an effort to accommodate Atari and Atari’s financial
distress, Turbine agreed to offset the royalties owed to Turbine by Atari against those owed to
Atari by Turbine"
This not about if you like the game or not, this about a company screwing over another company badly, and also screwing all the people who enjoy DDO and think its a great game. (one of the best MMOs in my opinion)
Well, here's hoping. That said, I have to agree with you as they even define the "classes" in 4.0 with MMO gaming terms (Tank, DPS, etc.)
@Baneshade - "Dungeons" don't always have to be underground or in an enclosed space. Overland areas are fully capable of being "dungeons" in their own right. I say that as a long time DM/GM and player for pencil & paper tabletop DnD, Shadowrun, Gamma World, etc.
http://www.massively.com/2009/08/26/breaking-turbine-sues-atari-over-dungeons-and-dragons-online/#continued
Here is the massively write up about the story, seems more detailed.
basicly no company can afford f2p venture so any means to get money is good as long as its not coming from our own pocket
.why did they bother with this is a mystery to me.cant compete with wow in p2p and cant afford f2p market oh i got it
having read the article i do hope atari just plainly remove right from ddo pay the 30 million and just re-lunch the game ,
coming to the court after what 2 years gees come on basicly turbine cant afford another publicity campain new f2p ddo
lol ddo is 2 years old atary did their part when game was lunched their part is done and finished ,the new f2p version is turbine or whatever new guy descided f2p was good idea want publicity at next superbol im sorry but its not atary problem anymore
they done their part when game was lunched
men in america everybody sue everybody some people have too much time on their hands
Well, here's hoping. That said, I have to agree with you as they even define the "classes" in 4.0 with MMO gaming terms (Tank, DPS, etc.)
@Baneshade - "Dungeons" don't always have to be underground or in an enclosed space. Overland areas are fully capable of being "dungeons" in their own right. I say that as a long time DM/GM and player for pencil & paper tabletop DnD, Shadowrun, Gamma World, etc.
DDO have plenty of outdoor areas to explore.. heh some of the zones are bigger and less linear than the ones in AoC :p
Sure it would be nice with a non instanced world in DDO but considering that the game have better combat than most MMOs, better character custimiaztion and by far the best dungeon crawls, then you have to cut of some features to make it work.
Compared to what? WoW
Well, yeah, everyone fails compared to WoW's equivalent of 6 million subscribers.
Turbine have been expressing their interest for an RMT game for well over two years, so the change to RMT is not a proof that the game was hurting for subscription. Mow, don't get me wrong, DDO is not a commercial success by any means but it was the little train that could. Everyone, from the start, condemned it as dead and it lasted for well over three years now.
It found its niche and the strong but small community kept it alive.
It's a game totally unlike all the EQ-clones we've been seeing for 10 years now, and enough people liked that to keep the game going for years. Now, Turbine's trying to attract more players with a more flexible payment model (which what DDO:EU really is) and with advertisement, which is something that Atari has denied them for years.
You bring up some good points, and no I can't think of any MMO that had exploring (or searching skill i think), climbing, jumping, swimming? And not just a gimmick.... yes I did like that aspect of the quests that utilzed those skills/actions, and used them quite well. Some quests you would need like high skill points into swimming... The Crucible is one quest that I beileve needed a high swim skill to pass a certain part (and usually one member of the party would be selected for that part). Well you make a good point. I currently have one level 16, 3 level 14's, and enjoy this game in many ways. But it would be nice to see Atari do something different. However, they should still incorporate the aforementioned skills, and not just as a gimmick. Whatever they do, and given that they win in court, they should utitlze those skills in the same way as is current, and make D&D more a persistent world instead of just instancing everything. Howerver that's not to say that everything should be persistent. Perhaps a good and balanced blend of the two?
Well I guess I'm jumping the gun on this, as this is all hypothetical and speculative since it's in the court process...
I really don't see how Turbine has ruined anything. LOTRO is a great game with way more content than any other MMO out right now. And DDO is a fun action/RPG MMO game. I'll admit back when DDO was coming out I played the CB and hated it. But I just recently started playing it again and I love it. The only bad thing about DDO is the lack of content updates. Hopefully after Mod 9 comes out Turbine will try to be more timely with their content updates. LOTRO really hasn't had this problem yet. Perhaps they are just understaffed to put updates out in a timely manner for both games and just put more resources into LOTRO as it has more subscribers. Honestly if LOTRO used DDO's combat system LOTRO would be even better than it is. Combat is just a tad slow in LOTRO I will admit. Other than that both games are very well done and are quite polished.
So how exactly did they ruin DDO for you?
Never brought that "game's" name up in what I wrote nor even thought about when I was writing that. So, that's your comparison, not mine. I don't ever use that game as a realistic reference point when talking about realistic achievements in the MMO genre.
As for the other part, well, as I stated, it's my opinion and for the moment I'll maintain it.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/08/26/Atari.pdf
Seems, from day one. Turbine has had to do just about everything to bring DnD online to life. With Arti constiantly stabbing them in the back.
If anything, this reinforces that Turbine is an increadable devloper, Arti failed time and time again on every single thing they were contracted to do, and Turbine picked up the ball time and time again and carried on and would just eat the loss in time, money, and manpower.
I was pointing the absurdity of saying a game was unsuccessful without using a point of comparison...
mm more content then any mmo out there?when you choose you choose big!
Well, welcome to the fact that not everyone is going to lay things out specifically for you in the way you want.
Good for Turbine. I hope they stomp Atari into the ground.
There's none other mate. DDO does it the best. And if you liked FIRST quests, you'd be completely blown out of the water if you played more. Trust me. DDO: Eberron Unlimited WILL be a success in my opinion, that game defends itself now. And with such big "free trial", being it free to play, it will surely give Turbine few times more money than ever before.
But this isn't enough. They must earn specific amount of $ for Atari in limited time, or Atari will sue them and take their license away.
Let's be honest. 9/10 of people who play this game now ask one question: "WHY no one ever told me about this game! This is unbelievable, because it's great!".
In other words, Atari was a sinking ship for years now. They NEVER advertised DDO, excluding few months 3+ years ago. Yet it lived on it's own even without a single advertisement, single banner.
For those who hope for better D&D MMO, especially in 3.5 or earlier ruleset...
First of all, no ona CAN do it. Any new game simply must be 4e, because it's the only one officially running and being supported be WotC.
Then, if you wan an "open world" MMO with D&D ruleset, I'm afraid this may be only "sketches" of this ruleset. Look at Warhammer Online. Do you see anything even slightly resembling Warhammer Fantasy Battle or Fantasy Roleplay rule there?
There's nothing like this. There's only Warhammer "theme", "feel", and maybe world, if that's not to big of a word here.
If you really want to see D&D rules in game, jumping, swimming, trap disarming, balance skills, tumble, real D&D ruleset and mechanics - stick with Turbine. Or just wait and see.
Evebody know that most people who would like to play D&D Online don't know it's ruleset and fear it will be too complicated. So consciously Turbine chose "true" way. But it you want the game to REALLY sell, you must make it dumb, easy to learn, shiny and for everyone out there. Even idiots, even children, even trolls from the basement and bored daddys.
So, if you really want to see D&D IP for an MMO to be moved elswhere from Turbine, you will probably get a heavy cash cow, but fans of D&D will most likely feel betrayed and forgotten.
Let's be straight, again. New "open world" MMO with Forgotten Realms as a "theme" won't require for devs to make it true to D&D rules in any way. So why bother with all those rules and their problems for an MMO with large PvP, etc? Do you really trust some new developer, who ISN'T Turbine, will make really better D&D MMO? Leave PvP unbalanced just because they will want to stick with the ruleset where possible?
I think that's really naive guys. If anyone was to create new D&D Online, I hope it will be Turbine. They're experienced and could make it better than anyone, if not the problem with sinking Atari and their new Cryptic.
I hope WotC will reconsider who they want to entrust their IP for all PC games, and make Atari sink forever. Bioware already has nothing to do with D&D just because of Atari. Are we so happy about it? That it's not D&D in Dragon Age which is coming, but something which only resembles D&D to dodge copyrights?
mm the right or wtv they call it was is will be to atari whatever turbine would like to wish for.i dont believe atari did anything wrong in the past .the problem its been what 2 years 3 since the launch of this game and now turbine would like to have a superbol publicity on the back of atari .i agre with atari ,turbine is lucky to still have the right for the game if i was atari i would pull the plug from turbine for ddo ,atari asnt done one ddo game they made a lot of ddo game in the past .if turbine push atari to the corner
they wont like the reaction from atari not one bit and turbine as more to loose then atari in this
Considering how awfull CO is and how Cryptic/Atari is screwing with their customers and acting really shady I dont see how anyone would want them to make a MMO (based on the awfull D&D 4.0)
mm the right or wtv they call it was is will be to atari whatever turbine would like to wish for.i dont believe atari did anything wrong in the past .the problem its been what 2 years 3 since the launch of this game and now turbine would like to have a superbol publicity on the back of atari .i agre with atari ,turbine is lucky to still have the right for the game if i was atari i would pull the plug from turbine for ddo ,atari asnt done one ddo game they made a lot of ddo game in the past .if turbine push atari to the corner
they wont like the reaction from atari not one bit and turbine as more to loose then atari in this
You have no idea what you are talking about. In fact. That is not even humanly comprehensible.
Yeah. So if anyone really wants to see _real_ D&D in any MMO, support Turbine all the time. We can say it's not 100% D&D 3.5 ruleset, but I'm still amazed seeing their dedication to make it a real D&D game. That alone make this game too hard for average WoW player. So they've limited their income to make it D&D in feel and in it's core - the rules.
Other than that, please guys, try this game at 9th of September (or 1st if you played recent beta / had a paid sub in the past). Then come here and say it's horrible. 3 years ago this game was so different and tiny, that there's no point in judging present game by that...
mm your probably right papa d&d ruleset is probably not easy to fully implement in a mmo ,its a shame because d&d ruleset
have been going on for for a long while ,the problem i see here is the same problem microsoft face
i remember when ibm was the king of sofware with dos etc then a noob come out of ibm stable and develop windows men we could see color it wasnt easy now everybody is sueing microsoft for various bogus reason ,
how come those company pushing to sue microsoft dont do a new software instead of cripling microsoft
they cant ! and in their head its the fault of microsoft ya right ,did you see ibm whine and sue microsoft like that then .i dont believe they did
and you know what ibm is still one of the top company of the world ,ibm dont speak a lot but god they act a lot !did you see the new techno that will come out in september ps3 yep good old blue processor not from new kid on the block intel ,no ser its a 45 nm sized processor they ll make so much of them even toshiba is in the bandwagon
so when i see proffessionnal suer ,i just think those guys are there to cripple various company in the world .
this wont help turbine and sure wont help atari either once all is said and done in court player will just move away from both game made by those company just in case player get splashed by bad rep(men its a shame )
The dungeons are very good. I don’t think I have played a mmo with this level of detail dungeon wise (traps, puzzles, scripted events); also every class brings something useful to the table. I know everyone hates instancing but I don’t see how you could make a game like this work without it.
Just to add I really like the 4th edition rule set. :)
Everyone hates Atari. Which just FYI is not Atari at all - its a company that bought the legendary name Atari.
They screwed every D&D product since they accuired the licence. They are the reason Bioware refuses to make any D&D game anymore.
But WOTC is stubborn in not extending the licence to nobody but Atari.
I must say I gasped when i saw Cryptic sign deal with them...but it must be the Bill Roper curse.
Its sad Turbine, which is probably the best MMO developer right now ( probably better even than Blizzard) have to put up with this crap. Especially now when DDO is so close to be released.
As for new D&D MMO. Sure I would love to see it. But it depends who will make it.
Also 4ed D&D is perfect for MMO. Actually its a rip off of MMO rules - so its only fitting its converted back into MMO
Guys, read more details from Massively.com:
www.massively.com/2009/08/26/breaking-turbine-sues-atari-over-dungeons-and-dragons-online/#continued
Breaking: Turbine sues Atari over Dungeons & Dragons Online:
"Turbine has filed a lawsuit against publishing partner Atari in New York courts for a breach of licensing agreement all centered around Dungeons and Dragons Online. The two companies are locked in a legal battle regarding accusations including failing contractual obligations and wrongful termination of agreements.
The court documents filed on Monday paint the picture of a long chain of grievances against Atari made by Turbine, starting with lackluster support all the way back when Dungeons and Dragons Online: Stormreach launched in 2006. Turbine asserts that Atari has failed to maintain their obligations as the publisher of the game while still holding onto the licensing for Dungeons and Dragons. These obligations mostly include the marketing aspects of the game, such as commercials, advertising, retail box creation, retail promotion, and cross-promotion with other Atari products. (Fans of the game will remember the very lackluster marketing campaign at the game's launch, especially when compared with Champions Online's marketing, another Atari-backed game.) Because of these failures, Turbine has had to step in and become the publisher of the game in North America, costing the company millions of dollars.
The lawsuit goes on further to describe a plot made by Atari to wrongfully terminate the licensing agreement and shake down Turbine for more money, even while the agreement was being updated to support the game's transition to the free to play model and Turbine was offering Atari a good faith payment of thousands of dollars future royalties. The documents suggest that Atari's motivation for letting this agreement update go through was to take Turbine's good faith payment before severing the agreement completely, shutting out Turbine while simultaneously paving the road for Atari's competing product (which we can only assume is Cryptic Studio's Champions Online.)
Atari hasn't been content to stay silent on this whole matter, stating to Courthouse News that Turbine over invested in Dungeons and Dragons Online to demand more consideration from Atari than called for by the agreement in question. The company also goes on to say that Turbine's lawsuit is threatening the goodwill that Turbine has developed with current and future players who expect to play DDO: Unlimited.
From all of this lawsuit, Turbine is seeking 30 million dollars worth of damages from Atari -- constituting recovered losses from Atari's breaches of contract.
What still seems to be up in the air regarding this whole case is what would happen to Dungeons and Dragons Online should this licensing agreement be terminated. The full rights to the game are between Turbine, Hasbro, Wizards of the Coast, and Atari, however it is Atari who has granted the sublicense for the game to Turbine. Should this agreement completely fall through, will Turbine still have control of the game?
When asked to comment on the case, Turbine released the following statement to Massively: "As a legal matter we can't comment on the particulars of the case. We have recently extended our rights to develop and operate DDO Unlimited until 2016 and are looking forward to our launch next week."
That's what we, players, knew all the time. So it's finally the time of judgement. If DDO was advertised all those years, just imagine the speed of development and how big their DDO team could be. Think about it - most people never tried D&D Online during those 3 years! Most MMO players never seen any DDO banner ever or anything ever - there were only interviews with developers, that was all Turbine could do.
I don't care that Atari didn't have enough money, or if they had financial trouble. They were obliged to publish and advertise, so now it's time to pay for their failure.
If Turbine did it, I'm all for that! And if they win, it's really possible. Just wait 2 years of income from DDO, and they can release DDO 2. Heck, I'm sure they'd develop an open world for it and mix it with their unmatched instanced content.
But is there any other developer we could trust to do it good enough? I don't think so. Certainly not Blizzard nor Funcom, NCSoft, etc.
Yes, D&D 4e is good for DDO 2. Just for the sake of it all, leave this license for Turbine and they will handle it, WotC!
Take your outrageously biased opinions somewhere else, please. Turbine is a terrible developer that somehow got its hands on the two greatest IPs of all time, and built them both in the same horrendous engine that makes everything look choppy and disconnected, ruining any chance at serious RP with decent people. The only people that I have seen in DDO or LOTRO are fanboys like you that have not the ability to look at something objectively. The games are unresponsive, hitchy, poorly run, and entirely unrepresentative of the worlds which they are trying to simulate. I went into both games with rose-coloured lenses on, and both times I was well and truly heartbroken. I am probably the most rabid Tolkien fan I know, and I literally wept when after I played LOTRO. Perhaps that is too much information, or too personal. Nevertheless, I digress.
I hope Turbine gets what is coming to them in a counter suit, and they sink under the waters of bankruptcy, never to be heard from again.
Looking back on this, I seem to have come off as outrageously biased. Perhaps I am. Turbine broke my heart. I hope they pay for their ruination of my favourite fantasy worlds.
Edit:
Khalathwyr, is your avatar Drow?
I agree. Turbine hasn't done anything good since AC1. But I still hope they take a bite out of Atari.
Huh?? WTH are you even trying to say? Talk about not having the slightest clue as to what you are writing about.
So because you personally dont like the games Turbine made you think they deserve to be screwed over by Atari?
Dont mind that there are thousands of Toliken fans who love LotrO and thousands of D&D fans who love DDO and that Turbine is considered one of the top studios in the industry and constantly win rewards for it.
Although I doubt it will happen, I pray that Atari eye-gouges Turbine and gets control of D&D online properties back from them.
That way, maybe I can still see a competent, dynamic, and diverse online D&D MMO before I die.
As long as Turbine has control, it languishes in severe mediocrity.
Yeah, people tend to be so closed minded and foolish.
Turbine is one of the leaders in MMO industry now. This is official by press. But maybe it's not visible enough to those who play other games and don't care about any other, uless it's shiny, PRed to the extreme and overrated.
Not to say all games of competitors are like that, but just look deeper and everyone will see that Turbine is slowly but steadily taking position at the absolute top.
Once Blizzard falls down from their highs with WoW (which already happens since Activision's merge), there should be few smaller giants which will struggle to retain their positions and compete with each other. Turbine will surely be one of them.
Looking at "being succesful", Turbine is a very succesful company. Only Blizzard and NCSoft do better probably (for western market).
The only thing which speaks from your post, is that it your opinion and game knowlegde of DDO doesn't even match severe mediocrity...
Hey! Don't label me dude!
Yes, if you're familiar with the Forgottem Realms, he is the drow, made famous by R.A. Salvatore.
Yeah, people tend to be so closed minded and foolish.
Turbine is one of the leaders in MMO industry now. This is official by press. But maybe it's not visible enough to those who play other games and don't care about any other, uless it's shiny, PRed to the extreme and overrated.
Not to say all games of competitors are like that, but just look deeper and everyone will see that Turbine is slowly but steadily taking position at the absolute top.
Once Blizzard falls down from their highs with WoW (which already happens since Activision's merge), there should be few smaller giants which will struggle to retain their positions and compete with each other. Turbine will surely be one of them.
Looking at "being succesful", Turbine is a very succesful company. Only Blizzard and NCSoft do better probably (for western market).
You forgot Bioware.
You forgot Bioware.
To be fair, Bioware hasn't launched a successful MMO yet.
You forgot Bioware.
Eh Bioware have not released any MMOs yet.
And btw, Atari is the reason why Bioware isnt doing D&D games anymore...
You forgot Bioware.
To be fair, Bioware hasn't launched a successful MMO yet.
True, but I was going off of past performance in thier other games :). It will be interesting to see how this Turbine/Atari stuff works out. I'd hope that Turbine does not get screwed again like Microsoft did them with AC2.
You play Perfect World. You have lost the right to an opinion any of us will ever take seriously. Now crawl back to your crapfest asian grinder and let us big boys talk DDO. That is all.
True, but I was going off of past performance in thier other games :). It will be interesting to see how this Turbine/Atari stuff works out. I'd hope that Turbine does not get screwed again like Microsoft did them with AC2.
Yeah. But Turbine isn't that "small company" it was a few years ago. They've hired so many people this and past year, many of them for Marketing and business growth. So I'd expect they've prepared very well and have good support of lawyers as well as investors here.
We've read recently, that Turbine's CEO, Jim Crowley, said that Turbine is in the process of buying out their licenses for all their game worldwide. So probably it didn't go smooth - as it is Atari who hold the rights for Europe.
But with those recent (and not so recent too) news of multi million $ investments in Turbine, I bet they have the strongest support possible. If Turbine succeeds and retakes whole D&D IP for MMO games, they could do anything. DDO2, open worlds, console D&D MMOs, everything.
I bet they were never allowed to create a new D&D MMO, so they chose to revamp what they've done to date, and be pioneers of AAA F2P MMOs.
I like both DDO and LOTRO...but do you think Turbine planned for all this in order to sue Atari and incorporate full DnD mmo rights into the settlement?... I mean..perhaps they realized Atari was not in the position to go whole hog into advertising..so they set up an agreement for the F2P and extension on the license..knowing Atari would default on their end...so to speak?. Kind of like what the banks financiers did with housing loans to low income families.
The only thing which speaks from your post, is that it your opinion and game knowlegde of DDO doesn't even match severe mediocrity...
Now, how would you know anything about my knowledge of DDO, Sarr?
Let's see;
- I've been alive almost twice as long as you have, and have been playing RPGs, primarily D&D, for about fifteen years before you could even read.
- Ten years before you even had a credit card (or most likely a computer of your own), I was already playing Everquest and had beta tested Asheron's Call. I subscribed to Asheron's Call for six years total. If you have ever played Asheron's Call, you could not help but be disappointed by DDO.
- I beta tested DDO. Did you? Even then, it was apparent that DDO was little more than an engine test for LOTRO. It was creatively dry and claustrophobic, and remains so to this day.
- Is my opinion "mediocre"? Perhaps. Then again, we hardly have to rely on my opinion, do we? Millions of gamers have voted with their wallets. So apparently, DDO is either mediocre or worse. Maybe you would prefer I used the word "competent"?
Yes, Turbine made a functional MMO that was based (loosely in many cases) on D&D. So in that respect, they were competent.
It's sad that many of the game mechanics in the original Everquest were closer to tabletop D&D than those in DDO.
I have nothing against Turbine; I keep wishing that they would do something truly remarkable along the lines of Asheron's Call.
DDO simply isn't it, and I would like to see someone else get the opportunity to really bring the world of D&D to life.
Probably the most clueless post I have seen this week. The only top tier developers out there are Turbine and Blizzard, everyone else is 2nd tier or lower. While you might not like their games, but their gameplay, graphics and content they are up there with the best. The big problem with DDO, besides the heavy instancing, is that the pvp is an after thought.
You want to spout nonsense, expect to get nailed for it on this board.
It's sad that many of the game mechanics in the original Everquest were closer to tabletop D&D than those in DDO.
All I can say about that quote is that you can't have ever played table top D&D then. Everquest is not even close to D&D ruleset. Turbines big problem with DDO is the D&D ruleset, it just does not lend itself to a online game. Most board game rulesets do not fit well with an online game.
Ironic that a narrowly minded post, one which hints at fiction rather then fact, can claim their opinion is the only valid one.
DDO, choppy?
My advice is to get a job, save some money and build a reasonable gaming PC. You can get one that runs DDO very nicely for no more then $500 including keyboard, mouse and monitor. If its choppy, its you.
I run the game in DirectX10 in 1680x1050 and it looks wonderful!
The game play of Dungeons & Dragons Online really is more advanced then the majority of MMO's on the market. Is that advanced form of play part of the downfall? possibly, but when you look at the success EVE Online's been experiancing, which is even more complex, it gives enough reason to suggest that stupid people aren't the only ones playing these games.
Can anyone reading this thread please do all of us DDO supporters a favor? Send us a pm, or post in the thread, other Games which have dynamic character builds which span beyond a single class and allow players to actively, in real time, dodge incoming attacks, roll out of the way of a Fireball flaying towards you, disarm traps or carfeully jump over them if you can't while using the game environment as part of the strategic application of the gameplay. There's one problem, DDO is ahead of the curve when it comes to dynamic MMO's.
Granted, the role-play in DDO is not great. The emotes are very weak, but that's it. Just because you can't simulate drow on drow love through the use of emotes does not make the game poor. ok - that's just an opinion. ;)
p.s. please recomend other games if you think you know something which has greater dynamics and a more active playstyle in a game that's based on real time strategy. please!
I am fairly certain I do not play Perfect World. I can see how maybe one question in one thread because I was curious about the game might indicate to someone desperate to prove me wrong without actually doing anything that I do. If I did play Perfect World, do you not think I would know the answer to the question that I asked?
No, indeed, I am actually quite interested in why I upset or annoyed you enough for you to look at my recent post history to find something that you could say to invalidate my thoughts. Those thoughts are my opinions, and yes, they are very strong. But then, they are based in my experience in both games.
But no, I do not play Perfect World, and from looking at it, I doubt I will. You have jumped the gun and assumed something with no evidence at all. As such, you have lost the right to an opinion I will ever take seriously. In fact, I consider you vile for even trying such a thing.
ATARI is low. Look into what they have done time and again and I cannot believe anyone does business with them. I mean look at the Champions Online lifetime/6 month subscription deal debacle. Cryptic is taking all the slack on this one when ATARI is primarily to blame. They are the ones that also handled that game's preorder deals.
In the past ATARI has kept this shady tripe relegated to low profile projects, but it even spilled over into the popular UNREAL TOURNAMENT series in the late 90's and the "Do something UNREAL" contest prize stuff. They really are a sour bunch over there. I mean, what happened to them?
Anyways I really like DDO, but it feels so restricted for some reason. Also there isn't enough content. Repeating quests over and over is far from enjoyable. There is a lot of that (I mean bucketloads) repeat stuff. I mean was DDO even doing OK prior to this? Not really. LotRO is Turbine's real cash cow I think. (I could be wrong there.) Still DDO seemed so second fiddle it isn't even funny. I would almost like to see another more respectfully done version of D&D as an MMO using the 4.0 rules set, but I doubt it will be much more playable unless they don't go the route of DDO and make you repeat the crap out of things. I would love a random level based quest system along with the main story stuff. THAT would be great.
I just don't know with this one. I don't feel obliged to "side" with either party really. I despise ATARI for what they have steadily become and I don't really know enough about Turbine other than they made a grindfest of a D&D game and a decent (if not down right fun) LotR MMO. I just don't know. heh.
But man, this game is just having a relaunch! There's going to be much faster and better development. They start to experiment and multi-ended quests (non linear, like in true RPGs) and new quest already have some new options in them. Also, they say that user created content is a thing they want in DDO, just not done yet.
If only Atari won't screw them over too much (preferably, they will lose this case), Turbine has the potential to make this game very popular. It even was very popular and nicely populated during this last beta.
Have you tried this new version yet?
All I can say is that my opinions run deep on this matter. I find Turbine's games to be horrible, and the engine itself is a large part of this. The animations are the biggest problem. Note that I do play all of my games at max settings, and these particular with DX10. The textures and shadows and general landscape and environment surpasses nearly all over games, let alone MMOs. It is the character models and animations. It just has such a stark contrast in quality, that alone might make me unable to play.
In addition to that, the bastardisation of mood and lore upsets me a great deal. I do not see how this is more clueless than your posts. We both are asserting our opinions with no citations. We are both entitled to them. And I am entitled to think you wrong and not very clever. That is what a public forum is all about.
As for your comment about Everquest, I am fairly sure the point was that EQ did not have systems terribly similar to D&D. Neither does DDO. Just using the same words to describe something does not mean it functions in the same way. I have played tabletop for years, and that is a large reason that DDO is so offensive to me.
I find it very interesting to note the series of events that led to this occurence.
I don't actually buy Turbine's stance in this matter. Turbine developed a poor game and then continued to perpetuate this poor game with equally poor content development. At the time, Atari marketed and funded the title to the best of their ability considering the financial problems they were finding themselves in. Atari have NEVER taken a D+D derivative and not marketed the shit out of it and DDO was no difference. DDOs failings came in the fact that Turbine developed a shit, PvE game that offered none of the elements that made D+D games popular. The fault is with Turbine ultimately.
However, note that Turbine left this a while. Dwindling subscriber numbers for DDO and LotRo mean that Turbine are probably having a hard time securing large sums of money via investment right now. I know they have just picked up a substantial amount of cash but it certainly isn't enough to keep LotRo and DDO running, as well as look forward to their next MMO and the continued development of their "brilliant" (yet totally fucking bollocks) engine. They've switched DDO to an F2P model and - after it received really, really bad reactions from beta players - they pushed back the release because they are now certain that it isn't going to save the game anyhow. This is simply a money saving option. They are hoping that this court case will line their coffers enough to carry the losses they will suffer over the coming year when DDO goes with a bit of integrity.
Sadly however, the only thing they will achieve is... a slight dent perhaps? It's pretty common knowledge that Atari purchased Cryptic with the hope of working on and delivering a new D+D MMO. I sincerely believe that the court should take witness from people who are in a position to offered balanced criticisms of the game, from release and through until now. That way, Turbine can whine all they want about Atari ditching the shit pile that is DDO. The court will simply find them in contempt of gamers and throw the case out. However, that is a dream. It's more than likely that Atari will have to pay damages to Turbine. Then, Turbine will be dismayed when Cryptic release their D+D MMO that - whilst not anything special - will be better than DDO.
Turbine are a bunch of arrogant, big headed gits frankly. They seem to have this weird opinion that they are the best MMO developer out there. They aren't. Far from it in fact.
That's interesting, I think Lord of the Rings Online is terrible. Seriosuly, I cannot stand it. I simply do not get the static combat systems that people claim are so much fun. They're bad and they make people even dumber. there's a point where we stop using our fingers to paint and start using brushes - games like eq, wow, lotro, are like Finger Painting By Numbers.
for the record - I hated DDO when it first launched and didn't play beyond the free month. Returning a little over a year later I was absolteuy impressed by the advancements made which caused the game to become what I would consider an all time great MMO. In the same category I would also place pre-cu Star Wars Galaxies and EVE Online, both of which had/have incredible open ended dynamics.
DDO is a hack-n-slash rpg with open-ended character building. Every other MMO strives to accomplish this even though they haven't been able to. the primary flaw with DDO was that the early version of Beta didn't properly capture the open area environments that are expected in online games and in the D&D mid-adventure themes. Its come so far since then it makes people who reference that period as being completely out of touch with the current state of the game.
Probably the most clueless post I have seen this week. The only top tier developers out there are Turbine and Blizzard, everyone else is 2nd tier or lower. While you might not like their games, but their gameplay, graphics and content they are up there with the best. The big problem with DDO, besides the heavy instancing, is that the pvp is an after thought.
You want to spout nonsense, expect to get nailed for it on this board.
It's sad that many of the game mechanics in the original Everquest were closer to tabletop D&D than those in DDO.
All I can say about that quote is that you can't have ever played table top D&D then. Everquest is not even close to D&D ruleset. Turbines big problem with DDO is the D&D ruleset, it just does not lend itself to a online game. Most board game rulesets do not fit well with an online game.
Hmmmm....
Have you ever rested (camped) anywhere you wanted to or needed to in a campaign to recover health in tabletop D&D? Hint: The answer is yes, unless you have never played D&D.
Can you in DDO? Hint: The answer is NO.
Can you in EQ? Hint: the answer is YES.
I have crafted items in tabletop D&D. There is an actual crafting system in tabletop D&D.
Can you craft in DDO? Hint: The answer is NO. (please don't even mention upgrading, green steel items, etc. That isn't crafting, i.e. collecting raw resources and creating something new from them.)
Can you craft in EQ? Hint: The answer is YES.
Have you ever had a random encounter in tabletop D&D?
Can you have them in DDO? Hint: The answer is NO. (again, please don't mention anything that occurs in an instance. Those aren't random encounters.)
Can you have them in EQ? Hint: The answer is YES.
Have you ever selected a diety in tabletop D&D?
Can you have them in DDO? Hint: The answer is NO.
Can you have them in EQ? Hint: The answer is YES.
I could go on, but anyone who has played both tabletop D&D and EQ knows that their systems are very closely related. It makes sense that they should be, as D&D (and several D&D inspired MUDs) was the inspiration for Everquest.
When you seek to bring a well-known and beloved tabletop rpg (like D&D) with a robust rule set and an expansive, existing game world to a massive multiplayer platform, you are, by default, accepting the fact that this design will require MORE of the developer than your average MMO.
As the developer, you may choose to do less; but that "less" will result in disappointment, poor sales and little success.
Turbine chose to do less. It's that simple, and sad, because they did FAR MORE with Asheron's Call.
I would like to see a new developer get the chance to do more, starting with an open game world.
You're compiling a bunch of gossip and call it common knowlegde. I think you have the same "knowlegde" about D&D Online, if we talk about what it is now and not what it once was, at the launch.
When did you play DDO for the last time? Have you played it at all? From your posts, one can be almost sure you haven't. Just follow old gossip.
PS: So you say this is complete failure? Check solo vid from last beta:
www.xfire.com/video/fca39/
I just love this; thank you. I am glad someone else agrees that the Turbine engine is complete bollocks. Atari probably DID plan this from a while back, but they should have. They have every reason to want to take the rights from Turbine. Turbine created a complete shit version of their IP.
Somnulus: I am not going to quote your post too, but I just love your comparisons between the two games, and I think they prove your original point quite well. There are of course many difference between EQ and D&D, but the two are much closer than D&D and DDO. Some of these Turbine fanboys are driving me up a wall. I hope this evidence might drop them a peg. I will not hold my breath.
Edit:
Sarr: Yes, that is what I would call failure. Look at the UI. Look at the action bars in particular. Look at the way the character moves. Look at the combat animations in particular. Look at the way his feet seem disconnected from the ground. Look at the way he moves across the ground in unnatural ways. They have added more terrible content, yes, but the game itself is the same as it ever was. The engine functions the same, and it still runs poorly and makes the characters look terrible. And do not forget the hideous UI. At least LOTRO has a pretty UI to go with their terrible models and animations and gameplay.
Side note: LOTRO Minstrels can kill monsters with music. On that basis alone the game loses and makes a mockery of the magnificent world created by Tolkien.
You love when someone agrees with your opinion? Is it any stronger now? Nope. I actually love Turbine's engine and the fact that it's the most advanced out there. Can you tumble, dogde, block monsters (due to collision system) with your tanks in any other MMO?
I also love their graphics. They have that distinct feel you either love or hate. You may hate it, but that's a matter of taste. And nothing even a small bit bigger. For example, I hate WoW graphics and engine - and I see tons of similar engines. Does it make it "bad"? Just becasue me and probably most people in this thread don't like it? No. That's a matter of personal tastes.
EDIT:
To the post above. WHAT?
You really haven't played in beta, am I right? Half of what you wrote just isn't true. No connection with surface? Man, DDO has it done the best you can find anywhere.
So I think you just see what you want in this vid of not-so-great quality
. Hmm, all your points aren't accurate. But there's no point in arguing over a video too! That's ridiculous! Just download the game for free and see. I'm 100% confident here, so just see for youself - no bullshit, you're wrong.
Of course I like people to agree with me. I take it you do not like that? Most advanced is kind of a joke. Spellborn comes to mind with dodging and blocking, just offhand. GW has collision as well. Their graphics are beautiful. But art is a matter of taste. The quality of the engine is less so. DX10 graphics and quality art does not an engine or a game make.
Too little info to take sides on the legal matter on who's right or not, and companies lie so much (they call it PR) that even with a lot of info I'd probably not take sides.
Suffice to say I support any resolution that lets a high quality D&D MMORPG get made that actually reflects D&D and high quality MMORPG's.
Wait, what?! Turbine is suing Atari? Because Atari didn't live up to it's end? In what universe? Atari tried hard to promote the general bucket of slop that is DDO, even when they were having money problems of their own. There is only so much you can do. This is just Turbine desperate for capital because they realized that the F2P DDO:EU isn't going to get them any more money than the P2P version. Which all by itself should tell you how naive or ignorant the business minds are over there. Do we have any word of a counter filing?
I may be wrong, but from what the article said they had an agreement until 2016 in relation to the D&D IP and Atari tried backing out in November 2008 and withdrew all of their support from the game. I think that's the main illegal event that they're suing over. In addition to using the D&D IP with their new company Cryptic, when they're supposed to be supporting it with Turbine.
Edit: I've noticed your lack of research in responses in other threads too, like the Champions Online one where you tried to bash my statement but then I gave proof on how he is a fanboy and not being sarcastic. Please read and provide some evidence before you post in the future. You can also revisit that post with links to how his posts aren't sarcastic.
Another video. This time it's not even from new DDO version, but old - this is how it looked year ago.
Dedicated to those who said DDO isn't fast. isn't thrilling, has bad graphics and poor gameplay:
www.xfire.com/video/b7a7c/
And actual screenshots I made in the game. Many still from older version, which had worse graphics, without DX10. Most were taken by me, plus there's one map of continent from books:
If those look bad to you, then it's a matter of taste.
Oh, wow. That's low. I don't have much love for Turbine or their games, but Atari...really? They should at least pretend to try and help Turbine out. I think the theory that this is a plan on Atari's part to back out and give the rights to someone else. I would like that, personally, but this is not the way to go about it. I think I was a bit hasty here based on my general dislike of Turbine. I think Turbine will be able to secure that 30 mil, based on the facts as we know them.
I'm not very much a fan of Turbine at all, but I'm actually interested in what they've done with DDO. All of those things aside, I would still be very upset with Atari for such a backhanded move. It really makes me wonder who's behind all of the Cryptic marketing fiasco's. It's probably Atari's fault.
I want to like the name Atari for my fond memories of the early 80's with my 2600. As I understand, this company is not that original builder of fun. Its been passed around and restarted a few times with different butt heads dragging its name in the dirt. Turbine might not have launched DDO in great shape 3 years ago but they seem to be working very hard to turn it around from that humble start. Atari needs to buck up and work with Turbine for both of thier benefits or help Turbine find another distributor. Either lead or get the hell out of the way.
It's not hard at all to side with Turbine on this one. I am pretty sure Atari is guilty as charged.
Well, glad to see we will have a real DDO game. Turbine screwed the pooch on this one.
I had a blast playing DDO back in the day. I'm sure it has only gotten better since then.
Those who love to whine about the game must have other issues, because the game is the closest adaptation of Dungeons and Dragons to date. No other online game comes even close to giving a first person experience like that.
DDO is what Neverwinter Nights should have been in an ideal world. Fun, action, adventure all from the first person perspective.
I don't quite see what people are bitching so much about. The lack of an extensive crafting system? Having to set up campfires?
Crafting could be implemented, but I never did much crafting back when I was table topping. I played D&D 1st Ed, and 2nd Ed rules, and quite honestly still like them best. Of course we were not rule mongers and happily implemented anything we felt would enhance the game. But crafting wasn't one of them.
Crafting seems to be something of a timesink in my opinion. Giving people something to do with their subscription time or spend their money on in a CS to get a PVP edge.
As for weak PVP... so what? D&D was never a game about fighting each other, it was about teamwork and beating the odds as put out by the Dungeon Master. I couldn't care less if PVP wasn't an option at all. There are plenty of games that focus on that, if that's your style.
The bottom line is DDO in its current incarnation is the closest thing to Dungeons and Dragons there has ever been created, period. Turbine can still tweak the game and change things around to make it even better - and I think the lawsuit shows their commitment to doing this.
I really hope Turbine wins. Atari is a PoS company, and anyone with even the slightest amount of knowledge about them knows this.
I think turbine should let atari do it,then when the mmo fails like all atari products, sue them for their remaining revenue and shut them down permanently, I hate to be like that, hell atari was the birth of the consoles and the only platform that led way to nintendo and modern game devs, But they're not even the original devs. And with tactics as crappy as theirs they deserve a lesson in Humility, I say we boycott atari ourselves(not that anyone buys their crap anyhow but still..) and let them in on a taste of their own medicine. As for the post about FSS, yeah I agree. HG:L had much potential, greedy micro fund companies are destroying what little dignity we gamers had with propaganda and rubbish, I'm sick of hearing about children robbing their own parents bank accounts for shoddily named game economy. Gimmicks are universal, but to incorporate this kind off arrogance into a belligerent attempt to void franchise license such as ddo(FR and BI were top dog with ddr(sorry just DD for those who aren't familiar with the table top versions(ddr=d&d realms/forgotten realms based on ddr concepts and the lisenced novels, really nerdy crap more or less and I remembered ddr is most commonly used as shorthand for dance dance revolution, decided to explain before i got flamed) but turbine is a close second) is not much apart from defiling Monkey Island with some trashy third party title, it's a staple in any real gamers diet even if DDRO was more or less epic failure this is wrong.
Its funny that people want Atari/Cryptic to make a new D&D MMO when:
Turbine made a heavily instanced MMO with great combat and great dungeons which had some troulbes at launch (limited combat, no PvP, no Crafting, hard learning curve).
Atari/Cryptic made a heavily instanced MMO with crappy combat and crappy dungeons using maybe the worst engine in any MMO Ive tried (Champions online). They even make people pay a monthly fee for thier game + have microtransactions.
For all the haters: maybe you should read the Filing before you comment on the matter, and maybe play DDO before you discuss what its like. Its easier to discuss when you have any information or facts to argue with...
Atari=NWN. i love that game, so turbine can go fuck them self.
I love NWN too, but it isn't as immersive as DDO, simply because it doesn't have 1st person perspective and lack all the common things associated with dungeon exploration.
Btw, Atari didn't make NWN. Bioware did. Atari is just the lousy publisher that has been annoying the hell out of most other companies that try to work with them.
Oh and like someone already said, Atari isn't the great old developer Atari some of us knew. It's simply a front now for a company of money men that bought the brand. People who apparently have very little clue about how to develop engaging MMOs.
Wow! What a constructive post! And what a language!
First! Bioware is the developer behind NWN! NOT Atari!
Atari is just a publisher! Nothing more. And a bad one that is. Always have!
They have been down under more then any other company. That says something.
And if you actually bothered reading what this lawsuit is about and why Turbine does it. Then you wouldn't be so hasty with such foul mouthy words.
It's thanks to Turbine that Atari still lives and didn't went bankrupt 2 - 3 years ago!
And as thanks for that Atari has been screwing around, didn't live up to their end of the deal with the DDO contract and pretty much screwed over Turbine for millions of dollars.
So I really hope Turbine wins and stomps this awful company deep into the ground where it belongs.
And for Cryptic's sake. I hope they can get loose from Atari in time and don't go down under with them.
Cheers
You love when someone agrees with your opinion? Is it any stronger now? Nope. I actually love Turbine's engine and the fact that it's the most advanced out there. Can you tumble, dogde, block monsters (due to collision system) with your tanks in any other MMO?
I also love their graphics. They have that distinct feel you either love or hate. You may hate it, but that's a matter of taste. And nothing even a small bit bigger. For example, I hate WoW graphics and engine - and I see tons of similar engines. Does it make it "bad"? Just becasue me and probably most people in this thread don't like it? No. That's a matter of personal tastes.
EDIT:
To the post above. WHAT?
You really haven't played in beta, am I right? Half of what you wrote just isn't true. No connection with surface? Man, DDO has it done the best you can find anywhere.
So I think you just see what you want in this vid of not-so-great quality
. Hmm, all your points aren't accurate. But there's no point in arguing over a video too! That's ridiculous! Just download the game for free and see. I'm 100% confident here, so just see for youself - no bullshit, you're wrong.
Bit of a late response to this, but I could leave it alone lol
So, let's talk about what Turbine have said the engine they have made can and cannot do. They were asked about phasing technology as seen in WoW during the DDO Beta and Turbine said that the Engine just couldn't do it. They were asked about player created content and Turbine said the Engine just couldn't do it. Asked for collision detection in Turbines MMO, you obviously have NO knowledge of any other MMO on the market if you think that this is something unique to the Turbine Engine. In fact, there are countless MMOs out there that have similar capabilities. More interesting is that fact that in a lot of MMOs collision detection and interaction is there but simply not enabled ;-) It's a very simple mechanic to implement and not a reason to praise the engine :-) From a technical perspective, the Turbine engine is not brilliant. It is complete bollocks.
There's a reason that Turbine (a) don't licence out there Engine, (b) don't release their sub numbers and (c) are suing Atari and it has nothing to do with them being a brilliant MMO developer... because they aren't.
No. Just no.
The single most reason why in most MMO's Collision Detection is turned off is because of server side performance reasons.
Lot of people think that Collision Detection is one of big reasons why WAR's servers come to a hold when too many people enter the RvR lake.
Problem with WAR is, that the whole RvR and Keep sieging is revolved around Collision Detection and so can't be shut off.
Turbine isn't a bad developer. Seeing how they have done with LOTRO and what they achieved with the presentation of Mines of Moria. That is sheer briliancy. As no other developer have accomplished such a Huge Dungeon as Moria in LOTRO.
So you have to give them credit for that.
No one says Turbine's Engine is unique or brilliant. But seeing how flawlessly the seamless world works in LOTRO. It's a pretty good engine.
But that isn't what this topic is about. It's about backstabbery and non-payment of Atari towards Turbine and Turbine sueing them over it.
No. Just no.
Well we get it, you don't like Turbine for some reason. Your comments about their engine exhibit a lot of misstatements. Why posters enjoy making comments that show a complete lack of knowledge is beyond me.
While DDO has it's problems, it is one of the better done MMO's and shows Turbines skill over most of the other developers. Yes the game has issues all mentioned previously in the thread.
Most of us who have an inkling of what goes on in this industry know Atari for what they are, a rats nest. When they bought Cryptic that pretty much ended Cryptic's chance of being anything in this industry. Champions will be in trouble before the year is out.
So excuse me for laughing at any of you attempting to defend Atari.
Bought it. Played it. Gave it to a friend.
If I could have found a group it might have been fun but there weren't enough players on when I was on to join a party.
An MMO needs to be both soloable and playable in teams DDO wasn't. ( At least not when I tried it. I have read on how things have changed, but heard the same from AOC so played it again and the changes were not significant enough to make me want to play that either.)
Champions does have "Dungeons" as you call them or closed instances I played a few in closed/ open beta and really enjoyed them.
Not sure where the knock against the game engine comes in exactly. They did a whole Best Bussiness practises sort of thing and took the best of WoW/CoX/ and WAR for gameplay and incorporated them into a game that is not limited by fantasy online as a genre. They can go where ever they like when new content is added.
So over all I disagree with the idea that CO is a terrible game.and disagree that DDO is a great game.
You people are posting in the wrong topic. This topic isn't about CO versus DDO. Tjeez. Learn2Read!!!
But you CAN'T disagree that DDO: Eberron Unlimited is a great game, because you DON'T KNOW IT
. And never played it. Simple as that. If you played in DDO: Eberron Unlimited beta, you could have an opinion.
But you say you've had an account in DDO: Stormreach (old version) back in the day. If that is true, then you can log in to DDO: Eberron Unlimited, free to play model, on the 1st of September - 8 days before the rest of the world.
I'll repeat:
Any of you that want to get a chance to have an opinion about DDO: Eberron Unlimited, and want to know why is it so unique, can download the client for free even now:
High Res Client (DX10, Very High texture setting)
Low Res Client (for older machines)
Official launch is on the 9th of September. BUT, if you ever had an account in the old DDO: Stormreach, or played in recent beta of DDO: Eberron Unlimited, you are able to jump in before all others and play it for free on the 1st of September!
As I said, game is free to download and won't even ask you for your credit card - unlike Guild Wars, where you need to buy the client. So you have nothing to lose, just the time to download it and you're playing.
New server will be open - completely fresh, ready for new players: Cannith. Veterans won't be able to transfer their characters there, so all people will start on 1st level and are going to create server's economy from the scratch.
So, let's stop talking about DDO: Stormreach, especially how it was 2-3 years ago. There even wasn't any global chat system, no trade/advice channels (all usable from within quests), targeting was clumsy (you needed to hit tab key), there wasn't DX10 graphics, no real Tutorial, no hirelings (for me - they work much better in DDO than in GW, as you can use them tactically), there was 10x less content than now, there was no auction house, UI was much worse, there were numerous bugs... In other words, new DDO isn't the one from 2-3 years back. Heck, it's much better game than it is now on live servers, which will get an upgrade to new version next week. Better polished, easier to learn, soloable with difficulty scaling to classes, levels and amount of party members in real time (when someone leaves, difficulty slightly scales down - when someone joins, it's going slightly up).
And that's surely not even half of what has changed, but I'll give up here - go and see.
Oh, and here's a screenshot where I ask new players in beta what they think about DDO (honestly):
Click and read the chat: www.mmorpg.com/photo/0db9fd1a-f103-4f8f-b72c-604d34b2eac4
Amazing! *drool*
I wish I didn't have to wait until Sept 9 to enter. It just looks to be so very cool.
I hope to see some of you in game once I'm finally allowed in :)
Hopefully Turbine will keep this awesome game going for a long long time. Btw, all the progress they've managed over the years really should crush the piping voices of dissent since they'll probably keep innovating as they have so far.
Sept 9. Hurry up!!! :D
I can't stand Turbine so they got what deserved in my eyes...I could care less what Atari did or didnt do, as long as I don't spend my money on Turbine's games I'm a happy dude. :-)
Sarr: I tend to have a lot of dislike for Turbine's games, as perhaps you have noticed by what I have said. I do not like them, and I did not like DDO before. I am not sure that what has changed would be enough to make it something I would be happy to hold the D&D name, but it does seem that indeed a great deal has changed. I will withhold judgement until then. I did have an account, so I will be Cannith on Sept. 1. I really honestly do hope that it is good. D&D is the greatest game IP ever created. If it is not different from before, however, I will rail against you and this game even stronger knowing that you told me it was different and better.
Edit:
Are you saying Obama is a beholder? I have to say that I do not get the joke. Is he ugly, bad, or are you relating the change in DDO to the change he is making in America? I hope it is the latter, because that would please me if it is true. I think Obama is the best president you yanks have picked out in quite a long time.
They are companies.... there's is no Good or Bad guys, they are both bad guys who'd screw anyone over to get what they want. Since the days of Yore...
unfortunately they'll be casualties, i mean look at Intel they stole some technology from a little company called Rodine... Rodine took them to court and won, but by that point Rodine had went bankrupt. Intel swallowed them up... and took everything anyway.
just the way the world works. no companies an angel, each are up to their waist in crap.
You would have to be pretty naive (although plenty of people in the DDO section of the forums) not to realise there was something very uncomfortable going on between Turbine and Atari behind the delays. At least it is now out in the open.
Umm, I played DDO from start until some time after the Reaver's Refuge update. And consistently Turbine would remove ledges and rocks that rewarded players and focused on a straight path from the start of a dungeon until the finish. Turbine had plenty of potential to make this game great, but they could not deliver. All of what you said was in fact just a gimmick. I couldn't stand it anymore, and I will never play a game that requires me to pay for content.
You want a game that rewards you for jumping, climbing, swimming and not just a gimmick? Try Darkfall, they have dungeons too.
I really hope Atari wins and takes the license away from Turbine to let Cryptic develop a stellar D&D title.
Bit of a late response to this, but I could leave it alone lol
So, let's talk about what Turbine have said the engine they have made can and cannot do. They were asked about phasing technology as seen in WoW during the DDO Beta and Turbine said that the Engine just couldn't do it. They were asked about player created content and Turbine said the Engine just couldn't do it. Asked for collision detection in Turbines MMO, you obviously have NO knowledge of any other MMO on the market if you think that this is something unique to the Turbine Engine. In fact, there are countless MMOs out there that have similar capabilities. More interesting is that fact that in a lot of MMOs collision detection and interaction is there but simply not enabled ;-) It's a very simple mechanic to implement and not a reason to praise the engine :-) From a technical perspective, the Turbine engine is not brilliant. It is complete bollocks.
There's a reason that Turbine (a) don't licence out there Engine, (b) don't release their sub numbers and (c) are suing Atari and it has nothing to do with them being a brilliant MMO developer... because they aren't.
All of turbines products use the same engine (The one from AC2), and they all support the features you seem to have no idea about, but you talk anyway.
Please link where all this was "Said".
But you CAN'T disagree that DDO: Eberron Unlimited is a great game, because you DON'T KNOW IT
. And never played it. Simple as that. If you played in DDO: Eberron Unlimited beta, you could have an opinion.
But you say you've had an account in DDO: Stormreach (old version) back in the day. If that is true, then you can log in to DDO: Eberron Unlimited, free to play model, on the 1st of September - 8 days before the rest of the world.
I'll repeat:
Any of you that want to get a chance to have an opinion about DDO: Eberron Unlimited, and want to know why is it so unique, can download the client for free even now:
High Res Client (DX10, Very High texture setting)
Low Res Client (for older machines)
Official launch is on the 9th of September. BUT, if you ever had an account in the old DDO: Stormreach, or played in recent beta of DDO: Eberron Unlimited, you are able to jump in before all others and play it for free on the 1st of September!
As I said, game is free to download and won't even ask you for your credit card - unlike Guild Wars, where you need to buy the client. So you have nothing to lose, just the time to download it and you're playing.
New server will be open - completely fresh, ready for new players: Cannith. Veterans won't be able to transfer their characters there, so all people will start on 1st level and are going to create server's economy from the scratch.
So, let's stop talking about DDO: Stormreach, especially how it was 2-3 years ago. There even wasn't any global chat system, no trade/advice channels (all usable from within quests), targeting was clumsy (you needed to hit tab key), there wasn't DX10 graphics, no real Tutorial, no hirelings (for me - they work much better in DDO than in GW, as you can use them tactically), there was 10x less content than now, there was no auction house, UI was much worse, there were numerous bugs... In other words, new DDO isn't the one from 2-3 years back. Heck, it's much better game than it is now on live servers, which will get an upgrade to new version next week. Better polished, easier to learn, soloable with difficulty scaling to classes, levels and amount of party members in real time (when someone leaves, difficulty slightly scales down - when someone joins, it's going slightly up).
And that's surely not even half of what has changed, but I'll give up here - go and see.
Oh, and here's a screenshot where I ask new players in beta what they think about DDO (honestly):
Click and read the chat: www.mmorpg.com/photo/0db9fd1a-f103-4f8f-b72c-604d34b2eac4
I had no idea they were updating the game. it does look pretty cool. I might give it a whirl but Storm reach left a really bitter taste in my mouth. I was a PnP AD&D geek from way back in the 80's and was sort of hoping to be able to relive that a little so i think I was a little more upset as a result.
Im going to give it a look tonight when I get home from work you've convinced me to at least look at it.
You people are posting in the wrong topic. This topic isn't about CO versus DDO. Tjeez. Learn2Read!!!
Atari is the publisher for Cryptic's Champion's Online. The article is about Atari being sued by Turbine. Someone made a comment on Champions that iw anted to address.
Are you the forum moderator here? Nope. Didn't think so. You're just a rude guy who argues with all my posts. Now go upstairs and ask your mom for a peanut butter sandwich or something I'm tired of you.
Publishers don't make the games.
I know.
dont be surprised ,in usa there ton of closet based firm that dont build anything you know what they do they buy right of various idea ,from cloud genarator ,inflatable condom.why?
because if for any reason a genius find a way to make it work even if todayits not even doable then they can sue that company for million.
i think turbine problem was right true,6 month after release they should have sued ,no they waited why
free publicity advertising for either d&d f2p(lol probably not)or on their next new game (hell ya now thats more like it)
its what will happen they just want someone to pay for their next big wich will need publicity
i do hope atari dragt this so much turbine will never be able to sue anyone for 10 000 years to come gees.
i believe its turbines fault not atari!why?
why didnt turbine sue 6 month after release or a year maybe !its too late now judge should just trow them out of court lol.
dont be surprised ,in usa there ton of closet based firm that dont build anything you know what they do they buy right of various idea ,from cloud genarator ,inflatable condom.why?
because if for any reason a genius find a way to make it work even if todayits not even doable then they can sue that company for million.
i think turbine problem was right true,6 month after release they should have sued ,no they waited why
free publicity advertising for either d&d f2p(lol probably not)or on their next new game (hell ya now thats more like it)
its what will happen they just want someone to pay for their next big wich will need publicity
i do hope atari dragt this so much turbine will never be able to sue anyone for 10 000 years to come gees.
i believe its turbines fault not atari!why?
why didnt turbine sue 6 month after release or a year maybe !its too late now judge should just trow them out of court lol.
Maybe if you read the Filing you will understand whats going on, why post if you dont know what the law suit is about?
Atari is going to need alot of Lifetime subs from Champions for this...
Whatever else happens Turbine and Atari are going to be screwing around with Lawyers and will be in Court.
This can't but hurt D&DO relaunch as a FTP and will probably slow down COs 1st content upgrade (whatever it is) and Star Treks Beta+Launch later this year.
The only real winner from all this will probably be NC Soft, whose City of Heroes is still around and was being threatened by CO and whose Aion launch will sail above all these lawyers on big fluffy angel wings. NC Soft couldn't have wished for anything better.
Honestly the combat and character system of ddo is wonderful. DC REal los etc THAT many years ago, but the issue is the game itself is rather poor. Character classes and combat engine are very soild.
Hell, I was liking the idea of being able to play DDO for free, and only having to subscribe if I wanted certain content. My entire group had been considering going back to the game anyways even before Unlimited was announced. Damned good fun, there.
You have no idea what you are talking about. In fact. That is not even humanly comprehensible.
So, then, I'm not the only one having trouble making sense of his ramblings? I mean, I get the gist of it, but I kinda have to mentally squint to pick up anything else.
Seeing these big companies playing their legal hands makes me feel like a tiny puppet on some thick strings :(
"I feel like a little worm on a big fucking hook."
I personally hope Atari wins. I hate what Turbine has done with DDO. I think Turbine has handled the game very poorly, and they really do not care about DDO players (I've been playing since Beta).
Maybe now we can see a Forgotten Realms MMO.
Another bored vet. Ah, well.
This is why Atari is known as the "Evil Empire of Gaming". They have pulled this same trick with other developers they have partnered with. EA is also known for using this tactic. Google some of it, you all will be amazed. I feel sorry for the shops that make the mistake of doing business with Atari. (or EA)
Well everybdoy knows how crudy Atari is, all you have to do is look at their track record.
With that said, well Turbine new who they were getting in bed with, and still decided to do it. I think both companies wanted the game to fail so they could sue each other.
I have no love for either company. I have the lifetime sub at LOTRO, but its not worth it. The developers all have lost their way, no XPAC this year, Turbine claims they are growing, maybe in korea. However the stats stay the same with the /who command.
You reap what you sew, I just feal for the folks who did the preo order. I blame Turbine just as much as I blame atari, both companies are circling the bowl.
Let's keep in mind the only information we have so far is Turbines allegations towards Atari. We have not heard any response (that I am aware of) from Atari, nor has a Court issued a ruling in favor of either party. So far, these are accusations, NOT facts.
If you dance with the Devil, guess who leads......
Hell, I was liking the idea of being able to play DDO for free, and only having to subscribe if I wanted certain content. My entire group had been considering going back to the game anyways even before Unlimited was announced. Damned good fun, there.
Well, there is that, lol. My group has just decided that, pencil & paper gaming-wise, should we ever decide to play a fantasy setting game that we're completely skipping out on Wizards and going to Paizo's Pathfinder. Sure, it's DnD 3.5 ruleset with adjustments, but it's the principle of not supporting companies who make changes to product we don't agree with. Knowing Cryptic, though, I don't think my game group would have approved on their "direction" of a DnD MMO either. Outside of character aesthetics, they aren't really known for depth in gameplay.
bahahahaha!!
lol
Well, there is that, lol. My group has just decided that, pencil & paper gaming-wise, should we ever decide to play a fantasy setting game that we're completely skipping out on Wizards and going to Paizo's Pathfinder. Sure, it's DnD 3.5 ruleset with adjustments, but it's the principle of not supporting companies who make changes to product we don't agree with. Knowing Cryptic, though, I don't think my game group would have approved on their "direction" of a DnD MMO either. Outside of character aesthetics, they aren't really known for depth in gameplay.
I've heard good things about Pathfinder, a friend is even learning 3rd edition rules so as to write some material for it. My entire core group prefers 3.5 greatly anyways, so that works for us. How's it playing so far?
Last week, with no warning, Turbine filed what can only be viewed as a frivolous lawsuit against Atari. This action can ultimately do a great disservice to D&D fans and to the MMO community at large. Turbine's actions also appear intended to divert attention from the contractual obligations that Turbine owes to Atari. In response, today Atari served a motion to dismiss the entirety of Turbine's lawsuit. Atari also filed a separate complaint to recover monies owed to Atari resulting from an independent third party audit of Turbine. While Atari hopes for a quick and fair resolution, it remains fully committed to the D&D communities worldwide and will vigorously protect the franchise and its own integrity in this matter.
Atari's responce.
I remember there were similar problems with Atari and the AZ company who made Horizons. Fool me once shame on me.
WOW
YIKES
Lol, Atari wants the lawsuit dismissed eh? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.