D&D Online Forum » The Rusty Nail (General) » Is DDO worth playing now that it is F2P ?

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

You make posts that are pure opinion try to sound like facts when the truth is you have no clue. An open world D&D game that removes the D20 system would not be a D&D game and you have no proof it would make anyone rich. Do you not think zturbine wanted millions of subscribers? Do you think they kept DDO small because they liked knowing all their customers on a personal level? Can you be this naive?

 

Please explain to me why if there was a game that most D&D PnP players hated because it went away from the rules it would be a hit? You understand that most people who come to DDO have played or at least know of D&D right? So if the game completely went away from D&D how the hell would it appeal to millions and still be a D&D game. Your example makes as much sense as most of your posts and trust me when I say that is not much.

 

Sarr only people like you want to see Turbine take the D&D name and bury it further. How can you want to see Turbine get another shot at ruining D&D as an MMO? Or does the fact DDO is going F2P Hybrid because it failed as a pay per play simply ellude your astute observational powers?

Hehe, "people like me", "not much sense in my posts", etc. Funny : ).

No, you're unable to understand or try hard not to.

"Please explain to me why if there was a game that most D&D PnP players hated because it went away from the rules it would be a hit? You understand that most people who come to DDO have played or at least know of D&D right? So if the game completely went away from D&D how the hell would it appeal to millions and still be a D&D game. Your example makes as much sense as most of your posts and trust me when I say that is not much."

Sure, I will : ).
DDO can't get as popular like WoW or LotrO or WAR, because it's different type game. Gameplay, game mechanics and unforgiving rules in DDO aren't for everyone. Most people who don't know D&D rules WON'T stay in this game ever. Can you imagine that majority of MMO players never played Pen & Paper RPGs? Let alone D&D!

That's why making DDO themed in D&D world would be enough for it's major succes. Just make it more candy-sweet looking, put some Drizzts, Elminsters, Khelben Blackstaffs, Volothamps Geddarms etc, and sell that MMO game with FR campaign setting or some expansion to it in cheaper "pack price", and you're a winner.

You can say... But WotC would NEVER allow it! They will require all D&D rules impemented, especially D20 system!
But do you honestly believe that? You know how D&D franchise and WotC financial status now look like, right?

"Sarr only people like you want to see Turbine take the D&D name and bury it further. How can you want to see Turbine get another shot at ruining D&D as an MMO? Or does the fact DDO is going F2P Hybrid because it failed as a pay per play simply ellude your astute observational powers?"

This kind of "sure fact" from you is just your speculation. Turbine wanted to make MORE MONEY on DDO for sure. But it hasn't failed by any means. Do you take into account that DDO F2P was developed for about a YEAR before it was announced? This means they were busy at work on DDO F2P, and that's why "old" DDO wasn't receiving much content in Mod 7, 8 and the cause of delay.

So, it's not that they were doing less and less uptades because they moved on to other games, but they though "hey, we want to make Microtransaction base MMO for a long time now, and DDO would be great try to it - seems a perfect fit! Let's risk and maybe get much more audience for that niche game of ours!"

Or in other words, more money. A game so true to D&D ruleset must suffer being niche game if it's sub-based, I'm afraid. People generally prefer easy fun for their MMO experience. And it's not possible to be 100% true to D&D system and be "easy, fun" MMO at the same time. So it would have no target audience. Either it's niche and firmy on D&D ruleset (I know it perfectly, and still say it - for an MMO DDO is unprecedently true to original IP!), or it's a major cash cow with D&D theme and licensed characters, places, etc. Do you think so many poeple care about D&D geeks wanting a D&D ruleset above all? No!

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

You make posts that are pure opinion try to sound like facts when the truth is you have no clue. An open world D&D game that removes the D20 system would not be a D&D game and you have no proof it would make anyone rich. Do you not think zturbine wanted millions of subscribers? Do you think they kept DDO small because they liked knowing all their customers on a personal level? Can you be this naive?

 

Please explain to me why if there was a game that most D&D PnP players hated because it went away from the rules it would be a hit? You understand that most people who come to DDO have played or at least know of D&D right? So if the game completely went away from D&D how the hell would it appeal to millions and still be a D&D game. Your example makes as much sense as most of your posts and trust me when I say that is not much.

 

Sarr only people like you want to see Turbine take the D&D name and bury it further. How can you want to see Turbine get another shot at ruining D&D as an MMO? Or does the fact DDO is going F2P Hybrid because it failed as a pay per play simply ellude your astute observational powers?

 

Hehe, "people like me", "not much sense in my posts", etc. Funny : ).

No, you're unable to understand or try hard not to.

"Please explain to me why if there was a game that most D&D PnP players hated because it went away from the rules it would be a hit? You understand that most people who come to DDO have played or at least know of D&D right? So if the game completely went away from D&D how the hell would it appeal to millions and still be a D&D game. Your example makes as much sense as most of your posts and trust me when I say that is not much."

Sure, I will : ).
DDO can't get as popular like WoW or LotrO or WAR, because it's different type game. Gameplay, game mechanics and unforgiving rules in DDO aren't for everyone. Most people who don't know D&D rules WON'T stay in this game ever. Can you imagine that majority of MMO players never played Pen & Paper RPGs? Let alone D&D!

That's why making DDO themed in D&D world would be enough for it's major succes. Just make it more candy-sweet looking, put some Drizzts, Elminsters, Khelben Blackstaffs, Volothamps Geddarms etc, and sell that MMO game with FR campaign setting or some expansion to it in cheaper "pack price", and you're a winner.

You can say... But WotC would NEVER allow it! They will require all D&D rules impemented, especially D20 system!
But do you honestly believe that? You know how D&D franchise and WotC financial status now look like, right?

"Sarr only people like you want to see Turbine take the D&D name and bury it further. How can you want to see Turbine get another shot at ruining D&D as an MMO? Or does the fact DDO is going F2P Hybrid because it failed as a pay per play simply ellude your astute observational powers?"

This kind of "sure fact" from you is just your speculation. Turbine wanted to make MORE MONEY on DDO for sure. But it hasn't failed by any means. Do you take into account that DDO F2P was developed for about a YEAR before it was announced? This means they were busy at work on DDO F2P, and that's why "old" DDO wasn't receiving much content in Mod 7, 8 and the cause of delay.

So, it's not that they were doing less and less uptades because they moved on to other games, but they though "hey, we want to make Microtransaction base MMO for a long time now, and DDO would be great try to it - seems a perfect fit! Let's risk and maybe get much more audience for that niche game of ours!"

Or in other words, more money. A game so true to D&D ruleset must suffer being niche game if it's sub-based, I'm afraid. People generally prefer easy fun for their MMO experience. And it's not possible to be 100% true to D&D system and be "easy, fun" MMO at the same time. So it would have no target audience. Either it's niche and firmy on D&D ruleset (I know it perfectly, and still say it - for an MMO DDO is unprecedently true to original IP!), or it's a major cash cow with D&D theme and licensed characters, places, etc. Do you think so many poeple care about D&D geeks wanting a D&D ruleset above all? No!

Sarr you should for Turbine you make better excuses for their failures than they do. You actually are giving them credit for spending a year working on new DDO that they basicly stole money from the playerbase by lying about stuff coming soon. I am aamazed that anyone would think their treatment of players for a year was a good thing, but then again nothing you say as a fanboy should shock me any longer.

You might be the worst fanboy I have ever ran into, anything Turbine says you think is absolutely true and arguing with you is a waste. I am done Goodbye Sarr.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

You make posts that are pure opinion try to sound like facts when the truth is you have no clue.   

No, you're unable to understand or try hard not to.

Do you take into account that DDO F2P was developed for about a YEAR before it was announced? This means they were busy at work on DDO F2P, and that's why "old" DDO wasn't receiving much content in Mod 7, 8 and the cause of delay.

So, it's not that they were doing less and less uptades because they moved on to other games, but they though "hey, we want to make Microtransaction base MMO for a long time now, and DDO would be great try to it - seems a perfect fit! Let's risk and maybe get much more audience for that niche game of ours!"

You actually are giving them credit for spending a year working on new DDO that they basicly stole money from the playerbase by lying about stuff coming soon. I am aamazed that anyone would think their treatment of players for a year was a good thing, but then again nothing you say as a fanboy should shock me any longer.

First, Rok:  You are more and more consistently becoming trollish.  Even though I disagree with a LOT of what you think, and claim, you should watch your tone so as to not lose your posting privleges.  Your absence from these forums would not be a good thing.  

that being said - I think you're fricken nuts!  Do you ever re-read what you've posted or actualy think what message you're trying to deliver before typing?  Some of it is hysterical!

Your first quote is extremely ironic as you're oftenly mistaken and I have to agree with Sarr's assesment that you ignore certain facts.

I think Sarr is just optomistic and there's nothing wrong with that.  Overly optomistic, sure, but it's quite clear in their posts. 

Turbine didn't "steal" anything and while I do feel they had mislead the subscriber base I don't think they directly lied ,but portraying exclusive content in the form of patch notes which was left to be assumed would follow a "standard publish" when it was alledgedly planned a year in advance could be considered fraudulent by my definition; no actual damages and players should have left. 

I'm going to contradict myself and risk looking like a hypocirt (just thinking, not presenting facts) but I absolutely do not believe that Turbine has been working on Unlimited for a year.  I think the claim was a farce as a means to draw more attention to the game by creating a visage that a LOT more content was being developed then what might have been.  Some of the other claims about the Item Mall and current itemization pricing schemes were boreline delusional and very uninformed; ala carte consumption has existed longer then iTunes, jack ass!  (that's directed at Turbine)

I honestly believe Turbine is staffed by great people who have the best intent, but I'm specifically meaning the developers and members of Q&A.  A simple fact is the company is a business and they need to make money yet this is not a golden ticket to trick or mislead customers who pay in advance based on what's being presented to them.  My faith stops there as I think the management has their heads up each other's asses - this is based on what's transpired, not what's been accomplished. 

As for the Risk - I think that's exactly what's happening, the Hail Marry, even though it's very viable, hell, it's actually very smart and couldn't be at a better time.  

The real trick is if Turbine will actualy be able to advertise thier bastard child of a product.  Without any advertisement they would have been better to maintain the monthly subscription fee.  For some reason this is where I think it's all going to fail.

p.s. I believe rep's from Turbine view and posts on these forums.     

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

You make posts that are pure opinion try to sound like facts when the truth is you have no clue.   

No, you're unable to understand or try hard not to.

Do you take into account that DDO F2P was developed for about a YEAR before it was announced? This means they were busy at work on DDO F2P, and that's why "old" DDO wasn't receiving much content in Mod 7, 8 and the cause of delay.

So, it's not that they were doing less and less uptades because they moved on to other games, but they though "hey, we want to make Microtransaction base MMO for a long time now, and DDO would be great try to it - seems a perfect fit! Let's risk and maybe get much more audience for that niche game of ours!"

You actually are giving them credit for spending a year working on new DDO that they basicly stole money from the playerbase by lying about stuff coming soon. I am aamazed that anyone would think their treatment of players for a year was a good thing, but then again nothing you say as a fanboy should shock me any longer.

First, Rok:  You are more and more consistently becoming trollish.  Even though I disagree with a LOT of what you think, and claim, you should watch your tone so as to not lose your posting privleges.  Your absence from these forums would not be a good thing.  

that being said - I think you're fricken nuts!  Do you ever re-read what you've posted or actualy think what message you're trying to deliver before typing?  Some of it is hysterical!

Your first quote is extremely ironic as you're oftenly mistaken and I have to agree with Sarr's assesment that you ignore certain facts.

I think Sarr is just optomistic and there's nothing wrong with that.  Overly optomistic, sure, but it's quite clear in their posts. 

Turbine didn't "steal" anything and while I do feel they had mislead the subscriber base I don't think they directly lied ,but portraying exclusive content in the form of patch notes which was left to be assumed would follow a "standard publish" when it was alledgedly planned a year in advance could be considered fraudulent by my definition; no actual damages and players should have left. 

I'm going to contradict myself and risk looking like a hypocirt (just thinking, not presenting facts) but I absolutely do not believe that Turbine has been working on Unlimited for a year.  I think the claim was a farce as a means to draw more attention to the game by creating a visage that a LOT more content was being developed then what might have been.  Some of the other claims about the Item Mall and current itemization pricing schemes were boreline delusional and very uninformed; ala carte consumption has existed longer then iTunes, jack ass!  (that's directed at Turbine)

I honestly believe Turbine is staffed by great people who have the best intent, but I'm specifically meaning the developers and members of Q&A.  A simple fact is the company is a business and they need to make money yet this is not a golden ticket to trick or mislead customers who pay in advance based on what's being presented to them.  My faith stops there as I think the management has their heads up each other's asses - this is based on what's transpired, not what's been accomplished. 

As for the Risk - I think that's exactly what's happening, the Hail Marry, even though it's very viable, hell, it's actually very smart and couldn't be at a better time.  

The real trick is if Turbine will actualy be able to advertise thier bastard child of a product.  Without any advertisement they would have been better to maintain the monthly subscription fee.  For some reason this is where I think it's all going to fail.

p.s. I believe rep's from Turbine view and posts on these forums.     

 

 
 

I would not worry about my losing postoing privledges. Unlike Turbine MMORPG does not expect fanboys only and ban for having a differing opinion.
 

You call me a troll, thats your right. You can think someone who feels Turbine has lied to their player base is a troll all you want. Trust me when I say being called a troll here is usually a sign that you are right.

As for my being nuts according to you, you may want to watch your tone as insults are whet get people banned here and you are starting more than one flame war with me lately.

Which facts do I ignore? The made up ones you or Sarr claim as facts when all evidence is to the contrary? Just because someone diagrees with me does not make their posts facts. It usually is a fanboy living in fantasyland making up anything to give an excuse.

Turbine knowlingly mislead the playerbase for nearly a year and continued to collect money like it was business as usual. While this is not a lawsuit in the making it was poor judgement, which Turbine has shown with DDO from the beginning. Funny thing is as much as I dislike their business practices I will be back playing in the near future, but that is because I like the game and the devs try hard not because the people making decisions are very good at it. Not to mention a husband and wife team in charge is never a good idea.

As for this risk being a good idea it certainly is and they have gotten more press the last month or so then they did for the first three years. This is a brilliant plan(shocking Turbine came up with it) to get people to try and if enough actually spend money then it will lead to a success. That being said a lot of the changes will be bad for the Vets, because the simple truth is DDO as is today on the live servers simply has little appeal to the mass MMO market. So big changes are needed to make the game appeal to those people.

Turbine reps can read and post all the want here. It would actually be nice if they did so openly so people could see they have a presence outside their own forums which require a current membership to post on.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta 

You call me a troll, thats your right. You can think someone who feels Turbine has lied to their player base is a troll all you want. Trust me when I say being called a troll here is usually a sign that you are right.

Which facts do I ignore? The made up ones you or Sarr claim as facts when all evidence is to the contrary? Just because someone diagrees with me does not make their posts facts. It usually is a fanboy living in fantasyland making up anything to give an excuse.

You've been proven wrong so often that I suspect your confrontation is purposed and not a legitiamte airing of what's taking place in DDO.  Especially when proven wrong, you tend to throw around derogatory names and accuse others of belittling your inteligence when corrections to your inaccuracies are taking place. The facts you ignore tend to be the ones which correct your frequent mistakes. 

Which server do you play on?

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Rokurgepta 

You call me a troll, thats your right. You can think someone who feels Turbine has lied to their player base is a troll all you want. Trust me when I say being called a troll here is usually a sign that you are right.

Which facts do I ignore? The made up ones you or Sarr claim as facts when all evidence is to the contrary? Just because someone diagrees with me does not make their posts facts. It usually is a fanboy living in fantasyland making up anything to give an excuse.

 

You've been proven wrong so often that I suspect your confrontation is purposed and not a legitiamte airing of what's taking place in DDO.  Especially when proven wrong, you tend to throw around derogatory names and accuse others of belittling your inteligence when corrections to your inaccuracies are taking place. The facts you ignore tend to be the ones which correct your frequent mistakes. 

Which server do you play on?

 

 

Proven wrong so often? Really? Have anything to back that up other than fanboy BS? Not a legitimate airing of what is going on? Just because you feel differently does not in any way reduce the legitimacy of my posts. You think you are correct and think you are explaining things you understand better when the truth is all you are doing is acting superior when you know nothing.

Corrections are one thing, I appreciate that, but what you do is insult not correct because you are generally wrong.

You think armor is now more effective when being hit on a 10 on elite is clearly making armor class less effective. I am sorry if math is difficult or reality too hard to understand in your world. 

Frequent mistakes? Like talking to you? I plan to rectify that immediately.

Originally posted by Antiquitas

I'll keep this one as brief as possible.

Is it worth free play ?- most definitely.

Do I feel the same attachment that I have with WOW, EQ, LOTRO  or even the ill fated Earth and Beyond? - no.

Would I now continue to play DDO? - yes.

Is the shop (pay to play) idea a good one for the Eberron world of DDO? - hell yes and a smart move by Turbine who apparently have a small group of haters in the crowd here. Met some of the LOTRO and Asherons Call staff in the past and they are a great group of people who do contrary to "opinions" (which are as profuse and related to a part of the human anatomy) listen to their public with constructive criticism.

Should they adopt Forgotten Realms? Yes, but be careful with that baby as it's a world where people have truly become attached myself included. They've succesfully handled Lord of the Rings so I do trust Turbine wouldn't screw that one up. I couldn't imagine the flame session that would erupt if they fouled that world.

Should they do the same with LOTRO? HELL NO - that would kill Tolkiens world

Thus ends a quick summary

I agree that it's worth the free play.  After all they haven't significantly changed the gameplay, and anything that ups the player pop has to be a good thing.  But there's good valid reason for people to be having second thoughts about the item shop.  Depending on how its implemented it can either make or break the system.  Too much of an advantage and you drive away your new players rather quickly.  I'd rather they had worked on other ways to increase the population than making such a fundamental change to the system.  I'd love to see Forgotten Realms playable in any form though.

Interesting Reading

DDO FTP - http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/41761.aspx

The fraud issue is an interesting footnote to EU update. Trying to be as fair as possible, here is what I remember. Turbine hasn’t really said when they began to develop the hybrid FtP system, but presumably they were working on it for some time. It would be a reasonable assumption that the decision to add a cash shop was made shortly before the devs terminated the Weekly Developers Activity (WDA) thread (approximately early June 2008), as that was also major deviation from their previous conduct.

The mods that were released after the end of the WDA thread were lowbie heavy. These include redesign of character creation, Korthos island and three barrel cove. This was also a deviation from Turbine’s previous releases, as lowbie missions and explorer areas were the majority of content for mods 7 and 8.

Originally, Turbine indicated that the level cap increase would take place in late 2008, with Mod 8, but mod 8 released without the level increase, which was pushed back to “anniversary time”, approximately February 28. In February 2009, the players were expecting release of mod 9. Turbine actually debuted mod 9 on the test server, and also sponsored a contest to guess the release date of mod 9, with the reward being a forum title. However, as February and March passed without release, the forums became toxic, players leaving became a daily occurence, and Turbine circled their wagons, until the announcement of FtP beta in early June 2009.

The only boldfaced “lie” that Turbine told was related to a posted job position for someone with experience in FtP games. When this was brought up on the DDO boards, Turbine unequivocally stated that the position was for a yet unnamed project they were also working on. However, many felt that Turbine had been promoting the imminent release of Mod 9, through its forum contests, preview server, news releases, and estimations of release dates. If subscribers were aware the update would not take place until August, many people would cancel or suspend their subscriptions. Since Turbine was aware of the FtP update, disgruntled players believed Turbine was being deceptive about the status of the update in order to keep more subscribers. In contrast, a Turbine partisan will argue that Turbine’s actions were necessitated by the resolution of legal issues or to maximize the impact of the announcement.

It should be noted that it is entirely possible that Turbine changed their mind about whether FtP was part of the mod 9 announcement after debuting mod 9 on Lammania. My recollection is that when the test server came online, several people discovered that only 4 missions were added to the favor log and were quite upset. I also recall Turbine originally indicated “Super Secret” was not part of mod 9, but later changed decided it would be included.  If "Super Secret" was the FtP system, it would explain some more of the May to August delay.
 

Originally posted by Wind-breaker

The fraud issue is an interesting footnote to EU update. Trying to be as fair as possible, here is what I remember. Turbine hasn’t really said when they began to develop the hybrid FtP system, but presumably they were working on it for some time. It would be a reasonable assumption that the decision to add a cash shop was made shortly before the devs terminated the Weekly Developers Activity (WDA) thread (approximately early June 2008), as that was also major deviation from their previous conduct.

The mods that were released after the end of the WDA thread were lowbie heavy. These include redesign of character creation, Korthos island and three barrel cove. This was also a deviation from Turbine’s previous releases, as lowbie missions and explorer areas were the majority of content for mods 7 and 8.

Originally, Turbine indicated that the level cap increase would take place in late 2008, with Mod 8, but mod 8 released without the level increase, which was pushed back to “anniversary time”, approximately February 28. In February 2009, the players were expecting release of mod 9. Turbine actually debuted mod 9 on the test server, and also sponsored a contest to guess the release date of mod 9, with the reward being a forum title. However, as February and March passed without release, the forums became toxic, players leaving became a daily occurence, and Turbine circled their wagons, until the announcement of FtP beta in early June 2009.

The only boldfaced “lie” that Turbine told was related to a posted job position for someone with experience in FtP games. When this was brought up on the DDO boards, Turbine unequivocally stated that the position was for a yet unnamed project they were also working on. However, many felt that Turbine had been promoting the imminent release of Mod 9, through its forum contests, preview server, news releases, and estimations of release dates. If subscribers were aware the update would not take place until August, many people would cancel or suspend their subscriptions. Since Turbine was aware of the FtP update, disgruntled players believed Turbine was being deceptive about the status of the update in order to keep more subscribers. In contrast, a Turbine partisan will argue that Turbine’s actions were necessitated by the resolution of legal issues or to maximize the impact of the announcement.

Here, they haven't really lied, just concealed the truth. DDO:U was indeed a different project to old DDO, developed behind the scenes for about a year. While they worked mostly on DDO:U, there wasn't much to write about in WDA for old DDO. Even evaluating how much of DDO:U content will get into "old" DDO could be hard. I'm sure they've expected developing / licensing it faster.

It should be noted that it is entirely possible that Turbine changed their mind about whether FtP was part of the mod 9 announcement after debuting mod 9 on Lammania. My recollection is that when the test server came online, several people discovered that only 4 missions were added to the favor log and were quite upset. I also recall Turbine originally indicated “Super Secret” was not part of mod 9, but later changed decided it would be included.  If "Super Secret" was the FtP system, it would explain some more of the May to August delay.

Exactly, that must have been that SS. Though Fernando pointed in recent inrerview, that there can be some other not revealed yet big things coming.

But, overal Turbine had not much choice than keep it all secret. If they announced "hey, we'r going F2P in about a year!", that could mean:

1. Bad marketting decision, possible fail of DDO:U.

2. Competition doing it first.

3. No one would be able to understand this new system or move. It needed this beta to show that it's not harmful at all, exactly opposite imho.

4. So scarce live uptades (because of DDU:U development) and our knowledge of it could mean no players in DDO, thus DDO getting closed totally.

5. No testing how we treat NPE etc.

Summing it up, I think there was honestly no better way to do it...

I like D&D..I believe they will do well..They have a Good Vip and plus a free game with item mall for those who just like to get a feel for it..I dont know about anyone else..Compare D&D with there vips and Item mall to any free game out there..You will find that D&D will do super well..I dont feel like i am getting screwed by it...

Originally posted by Wind-breaker

The fraud issue is an interesting footnote to EU update. Trying to be as fair as possible, here is what I remember. Turbine hasn’t really said when they began to develop the hybrid FtP system, but presumably they were working on it for some time. It would be a reasonable assumption that the decision to add a cash shop was made shortly before the devs terminated the Weekly Developers Activity (WDA) thread (approximately early June 2008), as that was also major deviation from their previous conduct.

The mods that were released after the end of the WDA thread were lowbie heavy. These include redesign of character creation, Korthos island and three barrel cove. This was also a deviation from Turbine’s previous releases, as lowbie missions and explorer areas were the majority of content for mods 7 and 8.

Originally, Turbine indicated that the level cap increase would take place in late 2008, with Mod 8, but mod 8 released without the level increase, which was pushed back to “anniversary time”, approximately February 28. In February 2009, the players were expecting release of mod 9. Turbine actually debuted mod 9 on the test server, and also sponsored a contest to guess the release date of mod 9, with the reward being a forum title. However, as February and March passed without release, the forums became toxic, players leaving became a daily occurence, and Turbine circled their wagons, until the announcement of FtP beta in early June 2009.

The only boldfaced “lie” that Turbine told was related to a posted job position for someone with experience in FtP games. When this was brought up on the DDO boards, Turbine unequivocally stated that the position was for a yet unnamed project they were also working on. However, many felt that Turbine had been promoting the imminent release of Mod 9, through its forum contests, preview server, news releases, and estimations of release dates. If subscribers were aware the update would not take place until August, many people would cancel or suspend their subscriptions. Since Turbine was aware of the FtP update, disgruntled players believed Turbine was being deceptive about the status of the update in order to keep more subscribers. In contrast, a Turbine partisan will argue that Turbine’s actions were necessitated by the resolution of legal issues or to maximize the impact of the announcement.

It should be noted that it is entirely possible that Turbine changed their mind about whether FtP was part of the mod 9 announcement after debuting mod 9 on Lammania. My recollection is that when the test server came online, several people discovered that only 4 missions were added to the favor log and were quite upset. I also recall Turbine originally indicated “Super Secret” was not part of mod 9, but later changed decided it would be included.  If "Super Secret" was the FtP system, it would explain some more of the May to August delay.
 

According to Turbine they never planned to release MOD9 without the F2P version. So when they said MOD 9 was planned for the anniversary they were either lying or completely wrong about the time frame needed. Either way they strung along many players with the word SOON and did hurt their relationship with many customers. Of course if they get enough people to pay with the new model they will not care or miss those players.

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Wind-breaker

The fraud issue is an interesting footnote to EU update. Trying to be as fair as possible, here is what I remember. Turbine hasn’t really said when they began to develop the hybrid FtP system, but presumably they were working on it for some time. It would be a reasonable assumption that the decision to add a cash shop was made shortly before the devs terminated the Weekly Developers Activity (WDA) thread (approximately early June 2008), as that was also major deviation from their previous conduct.

The mods that were released after the end of the WDA thread were lowbie heavy. These include redesign of character creation, Korthos island and three barrel cove. This was also a deviation from Turbine’s previous releases, as lowbie missions and explorer areas were the majority of content for mods 7 and 8.

Originally, Turbine indicated that the level cap increase would take place in late 2008, with Mod 8, but mod 8 released without the level increase, which was pushed back to “anniversary time”, approximately February 28. In February 2009, the players were expecting release of mod 9. Turbine actually debuted mod 9 on the test server, and also sponsored a contest to guess the release date of mod 9, with the reward being a forum title. However, as February and March passed without release, the forums became toxic, players leaving became a daily occurence, and Turbine circled their wagons, until the announcement of FtP beta in early June 2009.

The only boldfaced “lie” that Turbine told was related to a posted job position for someone with experience in FtP games. When this was brought up on the DDO boards, Turbine unequivocally stated that the position was for a yet unnamed project they were also working on. However, many felt that Turbine had been promoting the imminent release of Mod 9, through its forum contests, preview server, news releases, and estimations of release dates. If subscribers were aware the update would not take place until August, many people would cancel or suspend their subscriptions. Since Turbine was aware of the FtP update, disgruntled players believed Turbine was being deceptive about the status of the update in order to keep more subscribers. In contrast, a Turbine partisan will argue that Turbine’s actions were necessitated by the resolution of legal issues or to maximize the impact of the announcement.

Here, they haven't really lied, just concealed the truth. DDO:U was indeed a different project to old DDO, developed behind the scenes for about a year. While they worked mostly on DDO:U, there wasn't much to write about in WDA for old DDO. Even evaluating how much of DDO:U content will get into "old" DDO could be hard. I'm sure they've expected developing / licensing it faster.

It should be noted that it is entirely possible that Turbine changed their mind about whether FtP was part of the mod 9 announcement after debuting mod 9 on Lammania. My recollection is that when the test server came online, several people discovered that only 4 missions were added to the favor log and were quite upset. I also recall Turbine originally indicated “Super Secret” was not part of mod 9, but later changed decided it would be included.  If "Super Secret" was the FtP system, it would explain some more of the May to August delay.

Exactly, that must have been that SS. Though Fernando pointed in recent inrerview, that there can be some other not revealed yet big things coming.

But, overal Turbine had not much choice than keep it all secret. If they announced "hey, we'r going F2P in about a year!", that could mean:

1. Bad marketting decision, possible fail of DDO:U.

2. Competition doing it first.

3. No one would be able to understand this new system or move. It needed this beta to show that it's not harmful at all, exactly opposite imho.

4. So scarce live uptades (because of DDU:U development) and our knowledge of it could mean no players in DDO, thus DDO getting closed totally.

5. No testing how we treat NPE etc.

Summing it up, I think there was honestly no better way to do it...

1. No advertising for three years was a bad idea as well. Angering what was left of the fanbase was not so good either.

2. How would the competition do it first? If I tell you today of something I am working on what are the odds you develop it faster? Slim and none with slim on vacation.

3. Makes no sense.

4. They had no updates anyway, and instead they lied and kept saying it was coming soon.

5. Makes no sense like number 3.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Wind-breaker

The fraud issue is an interesting footnote to EU update. Trying to be as fair as possible, here is what I remember. Turbine hasn’t really said when they began to develop the hybrid FtP system, but presumably they were working on it for some time. It would be a reasonable assumption that the decision to add a cash shop was made shortly before the devs terminated the Weekly Developers Activity (WDA) thread (approximately early June 2008), as that was also major deviation from their previous conduct.

The mods that were released after the end of the WDA thread were lowbie heavy. These include redesign of character creation, Korthos island and three barrel cove. This was also a deviation from Turbine’s previous releases, as lowbie missions and explorer areas were the majority of content for mods 7 and 8.

Originally, Turbine indicated that the level cap increase would take place in late 2008, with Mod 8, but mod 8 released without the level increase, which was pushed back to “anniversary time”, approximately February 28. In February 2009, the players were expecting release of mod 9. Turbine actually debuted mod 9 on the test server, and also sponsored a contest to guess the release date of mod 9, with the reward being a forum title. However, as February and March passed without release, the forums became toxic, players leaving became a daily occurence, and Turbine circled their wagons, until the announcement of FtP beta in early June 2009.

The only boldfaced “lie” that Turbine told was related to a posted job position for someone with experience in FtP games. When this was brought up on the DDO boards, Turbine unequivocally stated that the position was for a yet unnamed project they were also working on. However, many felt that Turbine had been promoting the imminent release of Mod 9, through its forum contests, preview server, news releases, and estimations of release dates. If subscribers were aware the update would not take place until August, many people would cancel or suspend their subscriptions. Since Turbine was aware of the FtP update, disgruntled players believed Turbine was being deceptive about the status of the update in order to keep more subscribers. In contrast, a Turbine partisan will argue that Turbine’s actions were necessitated by the resolution of legal issues or to maximize the impact of the announcement.

It should be noted that it is entirely possible that Turbine changed their mind about whether FtP was part of the mod 9 announcement after debuting mod 9 on Lammania. My recollection is that when the test server came online, several people discovered that only 4 missions were added to the favor log and were quite upset. I also recall Turbine originally indicated “Super Secret” was not part of mod 9, but later changed decided it would be included.  If "Super Secret" was the FtP system, it would explain some more of the May to August delay.
 

 

According to Turbine they never planned to release MOD9 without the F2P version. So when they said MOD 9 was planned for the anniversary they were either lying or completely wrong about the time frame needed. Either way they strung along many players with the word SOON and did hurt their relationship with many customers. Of course if they get enough people to pay with the new model they will not care or miss those players.

Yep, I'm one of the exiles, having played from February 2006 to FTP announcement.  I was being as fair as possible with the recap of the issue - obviously this issue has been argued to the ground by both sides.  When I cancelled, I definately felt strung along.  I still have friends who play DDO, and I hope for them the mod was worth the wait.  It probably would have been better for them to initially make reasonable predictions on when the update was coming.  They may have lost players earlier, but the players that left probably wouldn't have been as resistant to coming back.  It is true they have gotten a lot of publicity for the game through announcement of the FtP option, which is a good thing for a population starved game.  If the freebies stick around and spend money, they may have made a wise decision, as they are only losing $15 per month from me and others like me. 

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

1. No advertising for three years was a bad idea as well. Angering what was left of the fanbase was not so good either.

 

2. How would the competition do it first? If I tell you today of something I am working on what are the odds you develop it faster? Slim and none with slim on vacation.

 

3. Makes no sense.

 

4. They had no updates anyway, and instead they lied and kept saying it was coming soon.

 

5. Makes no sense like number 3.

1. Only Atari could advertise the game. And they didn't. I'm not surprised, Atari was in financial trouble, DDO was a huge let down with only Stormreach and 10 levels at launch, plus WoW came out in almost the same time as DDO. In fact, all advertising campaigns cost plenty of money, and DDO sure looked like a lost cause.

The first advertising since launch is still coming - for DDO:U this time.

2. Wrong. Turbine isn't the most numerous nor richest developer. If it was public knowlegde that they move into F2P to get more customers, it's almost sure Tabular Rasa, Chronicles of Spellborn etc. wouldn't just "close". Look at Chronicles of Spellborn now - 2 months after DDO:U announcement they convert it to F2P! 

Just see how many games are now change to F2P micotranactions system - Champions Online, Star Trek (still fresh announcement). Aren't new Starwars prepared for F2P as well now?

I mean, it doesn't matter if Turbine was first either way (though it's entirely possible some "bigger" company did it first with a _year back_ knowledge of DDO!). If other company could spoil DDO:U launch with their own developments, it's not worth to take those risk.

Concluding, now I have sure knowledge that you don't know what you're talking about. Thank you.

3. Very honest! You simply don't understand! I'm impressed.

4. No updates? :D Mod 8? NPE? Show me exact sentence where they lied. You were fooled by others and "common knowledge". Just can't stand admitting it.

Because you know, I weren't fooled - I got it exactly like it turned out to be! Of course didn't know about DDO:U, but that doesn't make "new project" a lie! It was and is new project, different to old Sub-based DDO. Even press got it as new project - project of changing game system etc. to fit never-tried-before free/payment system. That's pretty huge, and it's still very loud news and all MMO sites (not only MMO sites...).

5. ...to write "makes no sense". I'm sorry, I'll try to write specifically for you! Just tell me how, and what you weren't able understand! ; ). Otherwise it makes no sense to even mention like you did.

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

1. No advertising for three years was a bad idea as well. Angering what was left of the fanbase was not so good either.

 

2. How would the competition do it first? If I tell you today of something I am working on what are the odds you develop it faster? Slim and none with slim on vacation.

 

3. Makes no sense.

 

4. They had no updates anyway, and instead they lied and kept saying it was coming soon.

 

5. Makes no sense like number 3.

 

1. Only Atari could advertise the game. And they didn't. I'm not surprised, Atari was in financial trouble, DDO was a huge let down with only Stormreach and 10 levels at launch, plus WoW came out in almost the same time as DDO. In fact, all advertising campaigns cost plenty of money, and DDO sure looked like a lost cause.

The first advertising since launch is still coming - for DDO:U this time.

2. Wrong. Turbine isn't the most numerous nor richest developer. If it was public knowlegde that they move into F2P to get more customers, it's almost sure Tabular Rasa, Chronicles of Spellborn etc. wouldn't just "close". Look at Chronicles of Spellborn now - 2 months after DDO:U announcement they convert it to F2P! 

Just see how many games are now change to F2P micotranactions system - Champions Online, Star Trek (still fresh announcement). Aren't new Starwars prepared for F2P as well now?

I mean, it doesn't matter if Turbine was first either way (though it's entirely possible some "bigger" company did it first with a _year back_ knowledge of DDO!). If other company could spoil DDO:U launch with their own developments, it's not worth to take those risk.

Concluding, now I have sure knowledge that you don't know what you're talking about. Thank you.

3. Very honest! You simply don't understand! I'm impressed.

4. No updates? :D Mod 8? NPE? Show me exact sentence where they lied. You were fooled by others and "common knowledge". Just can't stand admitting it.

Because you know, I weren't fooled - I got it exactly like it turned out to be! Of course didn't know about DDO:U, but that doesn't make "new project" a lie! It was and is new project, different to old Sub-based DDO. Even press got it as new project - project of changing game system etc. to fit never-tried-before free/payment system. That's pretty huge, and it's still very loud news and all MMO sites (not only MMO sites...).

5. ...to write "makes no sense". I'm sorry, I'll try to write specifically for you! Just tell me how, and what you weren't able understand! ; ). Otherwise it makes no sense to even mention like you did.

1. Why would Turbine not be allowed to advertise before but with no change to their deal with Atari now they can? Amazing.

2. You think Tabula Rasa would have beat them to what exactly? If DDO is the greatest F2P why worry about what some other game might have done? All you prove with this BS statement is DDO has an inferiority complex. How does another company not releasing DDO spoil the DDO release? If anyone proved they have no knowledge here it was you and the make believe land you live in. Tabula Rasa could have went F2P as a matter of fact when they annouced the closing many people thought going F2P was the answer for them. So Turbine did not invent the idea. You need to get a real clue.

3. I understood what you wrote, but it made no sense. Maybe it is the fact English is not your first language but you try very hard and usually come across well. This time it just seems like your point got lost in translation. You are making it sound like DDO is so hard that they changed the whole game.

4. They have had no updates this year. It seemed we were discussing recent history not last year. I was focused on no updates since they started lying by saying it was due out around the anniversary and then started using SOON as their new lie. You can defend them all you want, does not make you right.

5. Again it is your poorly made or imaginary point that is making no sense. The NPE had nothing to do with going F2P according to Turbine. So your linking them is making an excuse and not based in the reality you live in.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

 I understood what you wrote, but it made no sense.  

 

I find it hard to believe you understood regardless of how much sense it did or did not make.   :p

The "thing" that interests me the most is how this new Free-to-Play model is going to be brought to the attention of the masses.  As expressed, Atari is a financial disaster (is it really just Hollywood Accounting???) and its hard to place any faith into them as a publisher.

Do people really believe there's going to be a Advertisement Blitz for DDO:Unlimited!?!?

sorry, I don't. 

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

 I understood what you wrote, but it made no sense.  

 

I find it hard to believe you understood regardless of how much sense it did or did not make.   :p

The "thing" that interests me the most is how this new Free-to-Play model is going to be brought to the attention of the masses.  As expressed, Atari is a financial disaster (is it really just Hollywood Accounting???) and its hard to place any faith into them as a publisher.

Do people really believe there's going to be a Advertisement Blitz for DDO:Unlimited!?!?

sorry, I don't. 

 

 

 

The announcement itself provided the advertising really. Compared to the first three years the last couple of months of stories and interviews has brought DDO to more people attention than anything the lastg three years have done. Will it be enough? I do not know but I heard and saw DDO in more places the last couple of months then ever.
 

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

 I understood what you wrote, but it made no sense.  

 

I find it hard to believe you understood regardless of how much sense it did or did not make.   :p

The "thing" that interests me the most is how this new Free-to-Play model is going to be brought to the attention of the masses.  As expressed, Atari is a financial disaster (is it really just Hollywood Accounting???) and its hard to place any faith into them as a publisher.

Do people really believe there's going to be a Advertisement Blitz for DDO:Unlimited!?!?

sorry, I don't. 

 

 

 

The announcement itself provided the advertising really. Compared to the first three years the last couple of months of stories and interviews has brought DDO to more people attention than anything the lastg three years have done. Will it be enough? I do not know but I heard and saw DDO in more places the last couple of months then ever.
 

Eh, I don't have much time to write longer post now (and lets get it straight this polemic isn't going to change your mind even if I am right). So I'll just remind you that thread on DDO.COM forums, where Turbine asked players on which sites would they like to see Advertising Banners for DDO.

Patience said on the LotrO forum the reason why its so quiet about LotrO right now is because Turbines marketing and community team is focusing on the launch of DDO:EU so that probably means that it will be similar to what we saw around MoM launch where they had big adds on most gaming sites.

It would be pretty stupid to spend this much money and effort on something this big and then not do any advertising for it.

Originally posted by Papadam

Patience said on the LotrO forum the reason why its so quiet about LotrO right now is because Turbines marketing and community team is focusing on the launch of DDO:EU so that probably means that it will be similar to what we saw around MoM launch where they had big adds on most gaming sites.

It would be pretty stupid to spend this much money and effort on something this big and then not do any advertising for it.

Yeah. Please get me straight here guys. I'm not 100% sure, no one can be sure of anything that hasn't happened yet. Sure is only what happens now or the past, as long as you remember it right. But what I see is the above. No fanboyism here, it's just pretty logical.

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

 I understood what you wrote, but it made no sense.  

 

I find it hard to believe you understood regardless of how much sense it did or did not make.   :p

The "thing" that interests me the most is how this new Free-to-Play model is going to be brought to the attention of the masses.  As expressed, Atari is a financial disaster (is it really just Hollywood Accounting???) and its hard to place any faith into them as a publisher.

Do people really believe there's going to be a Advertisement Blitz for DDO:Unlimited!?!?

sorry, I don't. 

 

 

 

The announcement itself provided the advertising really. Compared to the first three years the last couple of months of stories and interviews has brought DDO to more people attention than anything the lastg three years have done. Will it be enough? I do not know but I heard and saw DDO in more places the last couple of months then ever.
 

 

Eh, I don't have much time to write longer post now (and lets get it straight this polemic isn't going to change your mind even if I am right). So I'll just remind you that thread on DDO.COM forums, where Turbine asked players on which sites would they like to see Advertising Banners for DDO.

Did you read what I wrote? I said the announcement alone was a huge lift for their advertising. Not for nothing Sarr but we are two weeks from the relaunch date and it is awfully quiet on the advertising front. I would think early next week is the latest date they should start to put up banners and ads on the major gaming sites if they are serious about this.

Asking players already playing and paying for your game where you should advertise is not exactly showing marketing savvy now is it? It should be pretty easy to figure out the big names and put ads there. As a gamer I could give them a few that might help.

Originally posted by Papadam

Patience said on the LotrO forum the reason why its so quiet about LotrO right now is because Turbines marketing and community team is focusing on the launch of DDO:EU so that probably means that it will be similar to what we saw around MoM launch where they had big adds on most gaming sites.

It would be pretty stupid to spend this much money and effort on something this big and then not do any advertising for it.

One of the things so many question is Turbines upper management savvy and intelligence. Moves like this are kind of par for the course with them. Great game developing coupled with poor decisions and management are the reason DDO has the distinction of best MMO no one is playing. Advertising the hell out of this relaunch should be mandatory for them, but we are two weeks from the date and unless you read the press and interviews(lots of them so that was good at least)  you would have no clue they were doing a major relaunch in two weeks time.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Papadam

Patience said on the LotrO forum the reason why its so quiet about LotrO right now is because Turbines marketing and community team is focusing on the launch of DDO:EU so that probably means that it will be similar to what we saw around MoM launch where they had big adds on most gaming sites.

It would be pretty stupid to spend this much money and effort on something this big and then not do any advertising for it.

 

One of the things so many question is Turbines upper management savvy and intelligence. Moves like this are kind of par for the course with them. Great game developing coupled with poor decisions and management are the reason DDO has the distinction of best MMO no one is playing. Advertising the hell out of this relaunch should be mandatory for them, but we are two weeks from the date and unless you read the press and interviews(lots of them so that was good at least)  you would have no clue they were doing a major relaunch in two weeks time.

Whats the point advertising before launching? None!

The thing you want with adds is that people see them and then go to the website, dowload the game and try it out. Nobody is going to care about an add saying "We are releasing this in 2 weeks please come back then", thats just a waste of money.

+Advertising is expensive, thats why you dont see alot of MMOs doing any at all. Did you see any adds for EQ2s last expansion for example? IMO the fact that Turbines upper managment decided to re-launch DDO like they will is an example that they are pretty smart after all ;) They had a choice between just keep adding content to a slowly dying game and keep the vets happy untill they close down or invest in the game and give it a new chance. I think they made the right choice.

Originally posted by Papadam

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Papadam

Patience said on the LotrO forum the reason why its so quiet about LotrO right now is because Turbines marketing and community team is focusing on the launch of DDO:EU so that probably means that it will be similar to what we saw around MoM launch where they had big adds on most gaming sites.

It would be pretty stupid to spend this much money and effort on something this big and then not do any advertising for it.

 

One of the things so many question is Turbines upper management savvy and intelligence. Moves like this are kind of par for the course with them. Great game developing coupled with poor decisions and management are the reason DDO has the distinction of best MMO no one is playing. Advertising the hell out of this relaunch should be mandatory for them, but we are two weeks from the date and unless you read the press and interviews(lots of them so that was good at least)  you would have no clue they were doing a major relaunch in two weeks time.

 

Whats the point advertising before launching? None!

The thing you want with adds is that people see them and then go to the website, dowload the game and try it out. Nobody is going to care about an add saying "We are releasing this in 2 weeks please come back then", thats just a waste of money.

+Advertising is expensive, thats why you dont see alot of MMOs doing any at all. Did you see any adds for EQ2s last expansion for example? IMO the fact that Turbines upper managment decided to re-launch DDO like they will is an example that they are pretty smart after all ;) They had a choice between just keep adding content to a slowly dying game and keep the vets happy untill they close down or invest in the game and give it a new chance. I think they made the right choice.

 

So I am going to guess you have done no advertising or marketing in your entire life. Leading up to launch by building up and advertising is done every day in the business world. You obviously do not participate in such and may not understand. A huge relaunch like this with no advertising as the date approaches is not a great idea.
 

Ads with the launch date on them right now would be building the potential play base. People could be Dl the trial ahead of time and going to the site. Having nothing as the date approaches is not a good idea.

Comparing EQ2s last expansion to DDOs entire new pay method and a huge expansion is showing you have no marketing or business background. It is fine not to know, but showing ignorance and being proud are not.

By the way I see plenty of F2P games with banner on many sites. Are you telling me DDO could not do this with its launch date included? Why do fanboys defend failure? Right now is the time to start getting the banner ads onto gaming sites. If a game like Evony can run a banner on MMORPG.com every day then so can DDO, which could trumpet all the changes and build excitement.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Papadam

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Papadam

Patience said on the LotrO forum the reason why its so quiet about LotrO right now is because Turbines marketing and community team is focusing on the launch of DDO:EU so that probably means that it will be similar to what we saw around MoM launch where they had big adds on most gaming sites.

It would be pretty stupid to spend this much money and effort on something this big and then not do any advertising for it.

 

One of the things so many question is Turbines upper management savvy and intelligence. Moves like this are kind of par for the course with them. Great game developing coupled with poor decisions and management are the reason DDO has the distinction of best MMO no one is playing. Advertising the hell out of this relaunch should be mandatory for them, but we are two weeks from the date and unless you read the press and interviews(lots of them so that was good at least)  you would have no clue they were doing a major relaunch in two weeks time.

 

Whats the point advertising before launching? None!

The thing you want with adds is that people see them and then go to the website, dowload the game and try it out. Nobody is going to care about an add saying "We are releasing this in 2 weeks please come back then", thats just a waste of money.

+Advertising is expensive, thats why you dont see alot of MMOs doing any at all. Did you see any adds for EQ2s last expansion for example? IMO the fact that Turbines upper managment decided to re-launch DDO like they will is an example that they are pretty smart after all ;) They had a choice between just keep adding content to a slowly dying game and keep the vets happy untill they close down or invest in the game and give it a new chance. I think they made the right choice.

 

So I am going to guess you have done no advertising or marketing in your entire life. Leading up to launch by building up and advertising is done every day in the business world. You obviously do not participate in such and may not understand. A huge relaunch like this with no advertising as the date approaches is not a great idea.
 

 I dont work with marketing no, (and I really hope you dont either)  but I use my common sense here... Reading this thread it seems like you are the one who have a hard time understanding things. From my point of view it seems alot smarter to market something when its on the market for people to try it. You really think that some adds are going to build up hype for a re-launch??

Ads with the launch date on them right now would be building the potential play base. People could be Dl the trial ahead of time and going to the site. Having nothing as the date approaches is not a good idea.

 Eh maybe they want people to try the game after EU launches and not before?

Comparing EQ2s last expansion to DDOs entire new pay method and a huge expansion is showing you have no marketing or business background. It is fine not to know, but showing ignorance and being proud are not.

Just wow man! get of your high horse and come back down to earth please... Now I see why there is no point arguing with you, anyone who doesnt share your opinion is Ignorant, stupid, a fanboy. You back up nothing of what you say with facts but still you call people ignorant? Again Im using common sense. Releasing an expansion is not comparable to re-launching??? Ok then... If that is ignorance then yea, Im proud of it...

By the way I see plenty of F2P games with banner on many sites. Are you telling me DDO could not do this with its launch date included? Why do fanboys defend failure? Right now is the time to start getting the banner ads onto gaming sites. If a game like Evony can run a banner on MMORPG.com every day then so can DDO, which could trumpet all the changes and build excitement.

Eh so now Im a Fanboy who defend failure? Man you really are something! You think its smart to have adds before release, I dont, I think its stupid and I dont have to work with advertising to see how stupid it would be. Seems like namecalling and being a jerk is the only thing you are going to contribute to this disscussion.