| ESRB:D&D Online Forum » The Rusty Nail (General) raquo; What's the changes in DDO Unlimited in combat system?
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7/01/09 5:37:22 PM#26
Originally posted by Rokurgepta
It was clearly stated that VIPs will be moved to the front of the line but if the server is full they will have to wait. Free players should have 'semi-permanat' spots. So when a paying customer wants on, a free to play player gets knocked off. This is how it worked in Knight Online :P Currently restarting World of Warcraft :/ |
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7/01/09 5:38:55 PM#27
Originally posted by sanders01
It was clearly stated that VIPs will be moved to the front of the line but if the server is full they will have to wait. Free players should have 'semi-permanat' spots. So when a paying customer wants on, a free to play player gets knocked off. This is how it worked in Knight Online :P Yeah that will go over real well in DDO in the middle of a quest that not only hurts the players getting knocked off but his entire group. |
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7/01/09 5:41:30 PM#28
Originally posted by uncus How about the "Chime of Opening" for 15TP? Rogues are limited enough [in some cases, some ARE built for combat] but the VERY cheap open locks/chests item makes "needing" of a rogue much less. People just run through traps already, opening locks - without risk of failure such as on Knock scrolls - was the other thing that made Rogues useful. Is this Dumbing down or Solo friendly? - semantics? WHat it is is taking a good game with limited appeal and changing it to make it more mass appealing but in the process potentially ruining the game for long time players. But the simple truth is the long time players are a small number and Turbine is hoping to have a few times that many join now and replace the ones who leave if they do not like the new direction.
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7/01/09 5:50:51 PM#29
Originally posted by mindspat Can you elaborate how the game I play is being DUMBED DOWN (I require specifics) - my understanding is Solo is becoming more accessible, and that's it. Grouping, raids and elite seem to be remaining the same minus the inclusion of Grazing Hits which actually makes things slightly more challenging while also serving to make it easier for the soloist who previously needed to roll greater then a 18 to hit anything. Armor is not less effective. If anything, it's more effective. Using shields is almost a viable option now since it will mostly, if not entirely, mitigate all the damage from a Grazing Hit. I'm more surprised you're not whinning that two weapon fighting and ranger/monk/+ splash builds are probably the only characters that might be effected in a negative manner. The auto-targeting isn't for me, but I usually play an ecentric battle Sorcerer or a dedicated Cleric which neither are well suited for the feature. I am glad I can turn it off 'cs it can be confusing how the targeting footprint consitently bounces around from one mob to another. It would be nicer if there were a ghosted Field of View (FoV) that represented your character's weapon arc with the targeting footprint only showing if mobs were within that FoV and in range of the weapon being used. damn, talk about delusions. If you think a simple Heal Wand that everyone can use is of a concern whereas EVERY CHARACTER is able to freely use ANY and ALL Healing Potions at ANY LEVEL you're proving yourself to be completely nuts.
Why would I whine about Ranger/Monk splash builds? I do not play flavor of the month. You obviously have no clue about me and do not know me so maybe a few less insults would benefit your opinion .
Armor is less effective with grazing hits. If the mobs can hit you with those and armor has no effect then armor itself is less effective. A Shield is not part of armor. A shield is seperate and was not part of the discussion. Lets take a character with 75AC. In elite content he gets grazing damage at 10+ that makes his armor less effective end of discussion. As for being dumbed down, I could care less what you require. If you can not see how changes are being made to make the game easier in many places then all the explaining in the world will not help and I am noit inclined to waste my time on the likes of you. |
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7/02/09 8:30:21 AM#30
Originally posted by Rokurgepta
I havnt forgot that since it doesnt matter. If it declines to nothing because there is no community then its no different than it declining to nothing if they dont make any money. Either way, it doesnt "stiff the community" since going f2p guarantees more players, which is the biggest killer of mmo's |
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7/02/09 10:49:12 AM#31
Originally posted by sadeyx The biggest killer of MMOs is loss of profit. Money is what these companies are after. DDO had a very dedicated core of players that obviously was not making Turbine enough money, but the changes they are making certainly look to be geared towards new players and in the long run very well might stiff the long time players. |
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7/02/09 11:01:21 AM#32
Originally posted by Rokurgepta
DDO does have a dedicated core of players, but I would suspect that it is in steady decline. The F2P model won't stiff the players any more than closing the servers would. Thats what they did in Tabula Rasa when profits were down. In the case of TR I would have greatly prefered a F2P Tabula Rasa over no Tabula Rasa.
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7/02/09 4:41:17 PM#33
Originally posted by Aganazer
DDO does have a dedicated core of players, but I would suspect that it is in steady decline. The F2P model won't stiff the players any more than closing the servers would. Thats what they did in Tabula Rasa when profits were down. In the case of TR I would have greatly prefered a F2P Tabula Rasa over no Tabula Rasa.
If in the process of changing the game to make more money you change too much of what the core gamers of three yesrs loved you are stiffing them. Turbine may be stiffing them in its own best interests, but the fact remains too many changes take away what made DDO unique for many. In the long term it may work out, but that remains to be seen.
As for TR, it was a disaster for all involved. TR had no profits from the start. |
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7/14/09 3:25:19 PM#34
Originally posted by sadeyx But they havnt stiffed the entire community. Apart from the fact that this 'community' is in rapid decline and left unattended would result in zero community, what you fail to realise is that everyone, in every MMO all the players in that game indeed in that community always asks for the same thing, more players! Going free to play doesnt "stiff" the community it actually gives it what every MMO community wants, desires and can never get enough of..... MORE players! If I could get all my friends playing my favorite MMO for free but I was still paying, I wouldnt care! I would delight at the fact, not feel ive been robbed.
my reference to "stiffing the players" is to do with the more common request of MORE CONTENT, not more players. Most established players have a very tight nit group of people they game with and could care less if there's more Pick Up Groups being advertised regardless if it's a good sign for Turbine. Carroting the Mod 9 patch notes back in March and elluding to the content going live when it was to be with held as part of the Free To Play model is what I meant as the players getting stiffed. It's my fault for not making this more clear as it has nothing to do with a soon to be free subscription model which will vastly increase the number of players. It soley relates to alledging there's content coming so subscriptions remain active when there had been a year planning to not release it as portrayed. I'm actually quite glad the game is going free to play for the same reasons you express. I am not happy that Turbine purposely misled the entire subscritpion base into thinking they would continue to recieve content as previously implied. If Mod9 had been released upon the initial showcasing of the patch notes and the Free to Play model was announced immediately afterwards I would have no gripes to air.
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7/14/09 3:43:28 PM#35
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Why would I whine about Ranger/Monk splash builds? I do not play flavor of the month. You obviously have no clue about me and do not know me so maybe a few less insults would benefit your opinion . Armor is less effective with grazing hits. If the mobs can hit you with those and armor has no effect then armor itself is less effective. A Shield is not part of armor. A shield is seperate and was not part of the discussion. Lets take a character with 75AC. In elite content he gets grazing damage at 10+ that makes his armor less effective end of discussion. As for being dumbed down, I could care less what you require. If you can not see how changes are being made to make the game easier in many places then all the explaining in the world will not help and I am noit inclined to waste my time on the likes of you. Sorry, the "whine about splash builds" was more to do about whining for the sake of whining about something which is actually appearing to have their extremely vaule slightly reduced. Saying "you" in that regards was more rhetorical then literal - sorry to make you get defensive. Are you claiming that Adamantine Armor is less effective even though its Damage Reduction can mitigate a lot of the dmg from a Grazing Hit? (ooh, and now add a shield!) I think Grazing Hits actually increases the difficulty for running quests on Elite. (I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that it's trivial until you enter a quest on Elite and actually have to start paying attention.) I realize you can't explain it, but that's cause you fail to identify many different aspects which counter the one sided view you're expressing here. I'm not saying they aren't making the game more accessible, 'cs they are, yet they are also making it more challenging at the same time. I suppose this is what's confusing you as it's a concept many don't undersand; ie, how can it be easier if its also more challenging!?!?
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7/14/09 6:06:38 PM#36
Originally posted by mindspat Why would I whine about Ranger/Monk splash builds? I do not play flavor of the month. You obviously have no clue about me and do not know me so maybe a few less insults would benefit your opinion . Armor is less effective with grazing hits. If the mobs can hit you with those and armor has no effect then armor itself is less effective. A Shield is not part of armor. A shield is seperate and was not part of the discussion. Lets take a character with 75AC. In elite content he gets grazing damage at 10+ that makes his armor less effective end of discussion. As for being dumbed down, I could care less what you require. If you can not see how changes are being made to make the game easier in many places then all the explaining in the world will not help and I am noit inclined to waste my time on the likes of you. Sorry, the "whine about splash builds" was more to do about whining for the sake of whining about something which is actually appearing to have their extremely vaule slightly reduced. Saying "you" in that regards was more rhetorical then literal - sorry to make you get defensive. Are you claiming that Adamantine Armor is less effective even though its Damage Reduction can mitigate a lot of the dmg from a Grazing Hit? (ooh, and now add a shield!) I think Grazing Hits actually increases the difficulty for running quests on Elite. (I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that it's trivial until you enter a quest on Elite and actually have to start paying attention.) I realize you can't explain it, but that's cause you fail to identify many different aspects which counter the one sided view you're expressing here. I'm not saying they aren't making the game more accessible, 'cs they are, yet they are also making it more challenging at the same time. I suppose this is what's confusing you as it's a concept many don't undersand; ie, how can it be easier if its also more challenging!?!?
All arm,or is now less effective if grazing hits ignores high armor values. A player with an 80AC an now be hit by this poor thought out mechanic. Do you understand the idea behind armr in DDO? The higher you get it the less you were supposed to be hit but now Turbine is reducing the effectiveness of high ac with this move.
I am not confused and your assumption of understanding things better than I do shows why you do nothing more than insult me and try to act superior. It is quite annoying when one assumes mental superiority and yet fails to see a simple fact like high armor is now hittable due to this change and for people with super high AC builds the time they spent has been mitigated by Turbine. I actually hate the high AC builds as other than Ranger they sacrifice too much, but I can understand the anger some would have if their build now became hittable not by a choice they made but by another blunder by Turbine. |
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7/15/09 1:12:28 PM#37
Originally posted by Rokurgepta Armor Class (AC) is NOT the same as Armor. One is a statisitcal representation of the ability to avoid being hit and the other was supposed to be used as a means of mitigating physical harm. At some point the old rules (sorry, no source) did describe that Armor Class didn't mean a player wasn't getting hit whereas their combined skill and items (such as armor) actually made it more difficult to harm them. Some material (again, no sources) encourged a DM to take into consideration that character's gear was actually being sliced and diced up during combat even though they might not be getting hit due to thier AC. I believe there were rules implemnted later that described how Touch Attacks worked which ignored physical protection (ie Armor) and simply used a Dexterity based skill check (or Saving Throw) to determine if the Attack (by Touch) landed. We are being led to believe that EVERY character with the allegded "80 AC" is wearing Fullplate Armor and carrying Tower shields, but this is NOT true. Characters in DDO which have extremely high AC are typicaly NOT wearing Plate Armor nor carrying shields whereas they are most oftenly using either Light Armor, or Robes, and using weapons in both hands to maximize the holy grail of all stats, DPS! This might seem confusing as logic leads us to believe that wearing Fullplate and carrying a Towershield would offer a LOT more damage mitigation then carrying 2 swords and wearing robes, but it doesn't! Well, at least not in DDO it doesn't. More times then not, a character in Full Plate and carrying a Towershield is NOT going to have a very good AC. As an example, my cleric (Skeleturn; Ghallanda - hit me up some time) has an AC in the low 40's in Fullplate while carrying a Towershield. The problem here is a bulk of the modifiers applied to AC are coming from Dexterity modifiers which is EXTREMELY limited while wearing 100lbs of armor and carrying a shield the size of a small door. In effect, Armor and Shields in DDO have had their benefits reduced to the magical enhancements attached to the items rather then the bonuses they directly grant to AC. Using a Tower Shield that's 5'-6' high and 2' wide does not provide passive safety. When an attack is made it simply ignores the physical size of the shield. On the other hand actively blocking with a shield does provide for a slight damage reduction, but it's an active function. (digress - imagine standing behind a stone wall that's waste high. The stone wall grants cover which would make it more difficult for the person to be hit. Now imagine if an Attacker was targeting the legs of the charcter standing behind the stonewall. DDO simply ignores that the stonewall covers the target from the waste down and instead applies a static modifier on the die roll when the attack is made regardless thus allowing anything to be targeted; this is not literal but quite accurate none-the-less.) note: I think Tower Shields should grant their full protection as if the character were blocking even though they aren't. The full benefits from a Towershield should be present at all times, but they are not. In the system with Grazing Hits they actually gain this function of passive mitigation whereas they didn't have it before. Someone might say: "But no one builds characters with Full Plate and Tower shields, noob." That's right, they don't! The reason why Shields and Fullplate are considered self-gimping is due to the loss of DPS in addition to being able to get a better AC by NOT using Armor. Instead, characters are being created with that excessively high (ex, 80) AC by using multi-class builds that do NOT use armor. To make matters worse, it is EXTREMELY easy to create these types of characters without much, if any, effort needed other then power grinding out EXP; can get a character capped at level 16 in a week if needed. The real problem is that the d20 system does NOT scale well. It's actually a very poor system in the manner that has been used with D&D and, unfortunately, DDO. The proof is in the example of an 80 AC - it's a broken mechanic in my eyes. Grazing Hits are to represent the wittling down one would endure in prolonged melee fights and it applies a realatively trivial amount of dmg to the target. To further enhance how a more accurate system of carrying a shield would passively mitigate attacks we're being told that based on the size of the shield you'll be able to negate a large majority of the potential damage from a Grazing Hit. (I like it and it makes sense, at least to me.) What I'm not sure of is if the different classes of armor (light, medium and heavy) will have an additional feature to mitigate damage from Grazing Hits and it seems logical that they should. In the least we do know that if a character is using Adamantine Fullplate and carrying a Towershield they will not be bothered by the trivial dmg from a Grzing Hit other then likely suffering from a lower AC to begin with. Rok, I'm sorry if you feel that a knowledgable rebuttal threatens your intellect. At times it actually seems as if you're projecting as you tend to claim abuse and agression when you're not getting your way in a forum thread: "It is quite annoying when one assumes mental superiority and yet fails to see a simple fact" The players who might suffer the most will be the ones who exploited (not meaning they cheated, just that they took extreme advantage of the flaw) how AC works by making multi-class characters with moderate to low Hit Points. It's those characters that will feel the impact from this the most even though the damage being delt is trivial and easily countered by more readily available functions such as, but not limited to: Stoneskin, carrying a shield, using adamantine on armor, eating a Tasty Ham, using Regrowth, having a Cleric that uses Divine Healing or through the most simplest function in the game by Drinking a Healing Potion. It's not as bad as you think Rok. I've posted the above not for you, but for others who might require a little more info on what's actually happening. I have more problems with Dungeon Alert and how auto-trips were going to be dished out to players - I heard someone commenting last night that due to the extremely negative reaction experessed by the players it is actually getting removed as per a forum post by a Dev; I've not read it yet. p.s. There might be some issues with the accuracy of the ex given by Rok, and continued by myself, with the AC80.
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7/15/09 1:15:09 PM#38
Originally posted by mindspat
I remember this as well. |
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7/15/09 1:56:42 PM#39
Mind the problem with the system is this for me. The people with 80AC are light armor or actually robes or clothes. Most of those builds took AC to the extreme and did sacrifice HP to do so. On Elite those people are now being hit on a 10. Turbine is hurting those players and for no real reason. I personally dislike these builds but ruining or hurting them that much is a poor decision on turbines part. As someone who will be back soon and plays a cleric half the time I do not want to try and heal these people.
I completely agree that full plate and tower shields should be much more effective then they have ever been in DDO. The simple fact that the best tanks had the least HP but could rarely be hit was a farce that Turbine allowed to go on for way too long. Full plate and a big shield should let me absorb a ton of punishment, but alas DDO has failed to make that a reality.
The dungeon alert system(AKA Vets please leave) is another joke. People can claim it is aimed at lag all they want, but the fact is we zerged for a long time before this game crippling lag ever showed up, but once they farmed out the servers there it was. How coincedental for Turbine that those things happed in order. |
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7/15/09 1:58:04 PM#40
Originally posted by Sovrath
I remember this as well. And that is what armor was invented for. |
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7/19/09 5:05:29 AM#41
I got in beta and now just waiting to get to play... Its been validating the game client for an hour or so, but we'll see...
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7/19/09 12:47:48 PM#42
Originally posted by takayi
In my opinion the combat feels ALOT better now! Much more responsive and better feeling when you hit monsters, Gracing hits also makes the combat feel abit more exciting imo (heh they should implement this in the pnp :p ) If WoW = The Beatles |
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