Originally posted by lkavadas

Originally posted by Chlodwig 

WoW had a large GAMER fanbase. Computer gamer fanbase.

 

Oh, so then explain to me why SWG, using the most beloved franchise in all of media and having had a decade of amazing computer games come before it, only managed to scrape together just barely 300k subs at it's peak?

By your IP and built in fanbase logic SWG should have had thirty or forty million subs at it's height.  And don't give me the "refined game, quality content" nonsense.  It took less than six months for WoW to surpass Lineage in subs (making it the most played MMO in the world).

SWG suffered both from a very usual mix of problems and  from an inherent problem of its best known storyline. The generally (unfortunately) abundant problem: It was released way too early, as so many games that could have been the next big thing but failed due to being pushed out too quickly. Game balance was horrible, stability was unbearable, things were introduced, then removed again, generally it felt like the devs have no clue what they're doing.

The inherent problem was the Jedi class. Of course the game had to have Jedis. But this is a serious problem. First, it's, simply due to the story of the books and movies, an incredibly cool class. And there aren't many. The only class that could come close in "coolness factor" would be the Smuggler, with Han as the role model. But trader? Healer? Heck, the healers in Star Wars are friggin' droids! So the classes fans of the series will choose are from a very limited set.

Becoming a Jedi has also changed so many times it is simply not funny anymore. It was a "secret" treadmill quest (later revealed to get people onto the treadmill and keep them playing), then changed to ... I don't remember, wasn't there even something akin to permadeath for Jedis too? At any rate, every time it was changed and "made easier", it was a surefire way to piss off the dedicated fans who took it upon themselves to go through the lengths necessary to be a Jedi. And of course the balance issues inherent of the class again.

When you look at the sales numbers, SWG did initially sell a million copies. I dare say, though, that most of them were preorders that were probably never played actively when the game received reviews that basically said "if you love the series, don't play the game and ruin the fond memories you have with a game not 'worthy' of that name".

I think SWG did have the potential to reach similar heights as WoW. It had everything it needed (besides good graphics, hell, those were even already dated when it shipped). What it didn't have, and what WoW had, was enough time to actually get the basics and foundation of the game done to build on. I think the proverbial breaker was the repeated overhaul of the Jedi class. Every hardcore fan of the franchise certainly wanted to be a Jedi, and I am sure a lot of them went through the various ordeals originally necessary to become one. When it's then suddenly changed as soon as you manage to finally become one of the "chosen few" only to learn that everyone can be there simply by creating one, I can well understand that people quit in disgust.

SGW had it in the sales to have that critical 1 Million subs necessary to make the game take off like WoW did. They failed to have them by not delivering what was expected and changing too much. They simply didn't live up to their hype. Whether that would have been possible at all is debatable.

Maybe there is such a thing as a "too strong" IP...

Originally posted by Chlodwig

Originally posted by lkavadas

Originally posted by Chlodwig 

WoW had a large GAMER fanbase. Computer gamer fanbase.

 

Oh, so then explain to me why SWG, using the most beloved franchise in all of media and having had a decade of amazing computer games come before it, only managed to scrape together just barely 300k subs at it's peak?

By your IP and built in fanbase logic SWG should have had thirty or forty million subs at it's height.  And don't give me the "refined game, quality content" nonsense.  It took less than six months for WoW to surpass Lineage in subs (making it the most played MMO in the world).

SWG suffered both from a very usual mix of problems and  from an inherent problem of its best known storyline. The generally (unfortunately) abundant problem: It was released way too early, as so many games that could have been the next big thing but failed due to being pushed out too quickly. Game balance was horrible, stability was unbearable, things were introduced, then removed again, generally it felt like the devs have no clue what they're doing.

The inherent problem was the Jedi class. Of course the game had to have Jedis. But this is a serious problem. First, it's, simply due to the story of the books and movies, an incredibly cool class. And there aren't many. The only class that could come close in "coolness factor" would be the Smuggler, with Han as the role model. But trader? Healer? Heck, the healers in Star Wars are friggin' droids! So the classes fans of the series will choose are from a very limited set.

Becoming a Jedi has also changed so many times it is simply not funny anymore. It was a "secret" treadmill quest (later revealed to get people onto the treadmill and keep them playing), then changed to ... I don't remember, wasn't there even something akin to permadeath for Jedis too? At any rate, every time it was changed and "made easier", it was a surefire way to piss off the dedicated fans who took it upon themselves to go through the lengths necessary to be a Jedi. And of course the balance issues inherent of the class again.

When you look at the sales numbers, SWG did initially sell a million copies. I dare say, though, that most of them were preorders that were probably never played actively when the game received reviews that basically said "if you love the series, don't play the game and ruin the fond memories you have with a game not 'worthy' of that name".

I think SWG did have the potential to reach similar heights as WoW. It had everything it needed (besides good graphics, hell, those were even already dated when it shipped). What it didn't have, and what WoW had, was enough time to actually get the basics and foundation of the game done to build on. I think the proverbial breaker was the repeated overhaul of the Jedi class. Every hardcore fan of the franchise certainly wanted to be a Jedi, and I am sure a lot of them went through the various ordeals originally necessary to become one. When it's then suddenly changed as soon as you manage to finally become one of the "chosen few" only to learn that everyone can be there simply by creating one, I can well understand that people quit in disgust.

SGW had it in the sales to have that critical 1 Million subs necessary to make the game take off like WoW did. They failed to have them by not delivering what was expected and changing too much. They simply didn't live up to their hype. Whether that would have been possible at all is debatable.

Maybe there is such a thing as a "too strong" IP...

If the game fails to live up to the IP then yes you could say there is such a thing, or you could blame the company for building a lame game built on a strong IP.

I am also sure some people who spent $3,000 on Ebay to buy Jedi accounts left in a blind rage when the changes were made that allowed people to make Jedi so easily. Not that I would advocate spending that kind of money or any money for an online account or items in a game.

I think the difference in how well they performed can be put down to a few things
- fans of WOW's ip were computer gamers - so all their fan base were already gamers

- Star Wars IP - is from the films and the books - so its not necessarily gamers.

- advertising - WOW did a far batter job of advertising

- release date - the fact that WOW was released a couple of years after SWG meant there was just a lot more homes with internet access.

- graphics - WOW's graphics are cartoony - which IMO suggests parents are more likely to let their young kids play a cartoony fantasy game that a more releastic (shooter type - talking about parents with no idea of gaming) game

Once WOW was out there it just exploded numberwise on word of mouth.

- strength of the I.P in the gaming industry - Warcraft were hugely successful games, whereas at the time SWG was released there had not been a good Star Wars game released.

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

- strength of the I.P in the gaming industry - Warcraft were hugely successful games, whereas at the time SWG was released there had not been a good Star Wars game released.

Wow, really?  So the whole X-Wing and TIE Fighter series never happened?  Or the original KOTOR?  Or Dark Forces?  Those are just the titles I can think of off the top of my head but I can guarantee you this:

Lucas Arts sold more Star Wars PC games before SWG launched than Blizzard sold Warcrafts.  People tend to forget the original War Craft was f*cking terrible.  It was a turn based POS and that's why Blizzard went into scramble mode to save their company in 1994 and completely ripped off Command & Conquer (itself an evolution of Westwood's previous RTS title, Dune II) with Warcraft II.

The only thing WoW had going for it is that it came hot off the heels of Warcraft III which terrible PC gaming magazines were going ape sh*t over (even though the game was completely pedestrian and still just a poorly done Westwood ripoff).

Originally posted by lkavadas

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

- strength of the I.P in the gaming industry - Warcraft were hugely successful games, whereas at the time SWG was released there had not been a good Star Wars game released.

 Wow, really?  So the whole X-Wing and TIE Fighter series never happened?  Or the original KOTOR?  Or Dark Forces?  Those are just the titles I can think of off the top of my head but I can guarantee you this:

Lucas Arts sold more Star Wars PC games before SWG launched than Blizzard sold Warcrafts.  People tend to forget the original War Craft was f*cking terrible.  It was a turn based POS and that's why Blizzard went into scramble mode to save their company in 1994 and completely ripped off Command & Conquer (itself an evolution of Westwood's previous RTS title, Dune II) with Warcraft II.

I think you missed his point. It was not so much the quality of the games as their popularity which determined the strength of the IP.

First off, KOTOR was released several months AFTER the original SWG, so that doesn't count. 

Secondly, X-Wing vs TIE fighter is seriously old school stuff. They may have been considered better than average games back in their day but you would be hard pressed to find many MMO players today who remember or even played those games.

Third, Dark Forces? Are you kidding me? I can walk down the street and ask people if they have heard of Warcraft and almost everyone will know what I'm talking about. Ask people if they have heard of Dark Forces and they will tell you to "ask someone else for directions to the sci-fi convention, nerd!"

As for Warcraft itself, it was not turn based. I don't know what game you played but I played the original Warcraft and I clearly remember it being an RTS game. Granted it wasn't as good as the games being made by Westwood Studios at that time but it was neither terrible nor turn based. It made logical sense for Blizzard to compare their product to what their competitors were offering at that time and make improvements based on that, thus the reason why Warcraft II may have been much more similar to what C&C was like. Its not some kind of crime to improve your game.

I think the point Shadowmage was trying to make boils down to this: Blizzard was a super popular company which was very well known for making great games, one of which was their Warcraft series of games. Compare that to Star Wars, where games were very hit and miss and much less popular overall.

This is probably why Bioware was chosen to make the new Star Wars MMO, because they are better known for quality and could connect their title to the popular KOTOR games by calling it "Old Republic" so people would think it was the same game. The bottom line is that it all boils down to who can make their product SOUND better on paper or in an ad on TV. I think WoW wins that contest over SWG without even breaking a sweat.

Don't get me worng, I hate WoW as much as the next guy. I'm just setting the facts straight here.

Originally posted by Raltar

Originally posted by lkavadas

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

- strength of the I.P in the gaming industry - Warcraft were hugely successful games, whereas at the time SWG was released there had not been a good Star Wars game released.

 Wow, really?  So the whole X-Wing and TIE Fighter series never happened?  Or the original KOTOR?  Or Dark Forces?  Those are just the titles I can think of off the top of my head but I can guarantee you this:

Lucas Arts sold more Star Wars PC games before SWG launched than Blizzard sold Warcrafts.  People tend to forget the original War Craft was f*cking terrible.  It was a turn based POS and that's why Blizzard went into scramble mode to save their company in 1994 and completely ripped off Command & Conquer (itself an evolution of Westwood's previous RTS title, Dune II) with Warcraft II.

 

I think you missed his point. It was not so much the quality of the games as their popularity which determined the strength of the IP.

First off, KOTOR was released several months AFTER the original SWG, so that doesn't count. 

Secondly, X-Wing vs TIE fighter is seriously old school stuff. They may have been considered better than average games back in their day but you would be hard pressed to find many MMO players today who remember or even played those games.

Third, Dark Forces? Are you kidding me? I can walk down the street and ask people if they have heard of Warcraft and almost everyone will know what I'm talking about. Ask people if they have heard of Dark Forces and they will tell you to "ask someone else for directions to the sci-fi convention, nerd!"

As for Warcraft itself, it was not turn based. I don't know what game you played but I played the original Warcraft and I clearly remember it being an RTS game. Granted it wasn't as good as the games being made by Westwood Studios at that time but it was neither terrible nor turn based. It made logical sense for Blizzard to compare their product to what their competitors were offering at that time and make improvements based on that, thus the reason why Warcraft II may have been much more similar to what C&C was like. Its not some kind of crime to improve your game.

I think the point Shadowmage was trying to make boils down to this: Blizzard was a super popular company which was very well known for making great games, one of which was their Warcraft series of games. Compare that to Star Wars, where games were very hit and miss and much less popular overall.

This is probably why Bioware was chosen to make the new Star Wars MMO, because they are better known for quality and could connect their title to the popular KOTOR games by calling it "Old Republic" so people would think it was the same game. The bottom line is that it all boils down to who can make their product SOUND better on paper or in an ad on TV. I think WoW wins that contest over SWG without even breaking a sweat.

Don't get me worng, I hate WoW as much as the next guy. I'm just setting the facts straight here.

I bet if you walk down the street and ask about warcraft most people will not know what you are talking about, unless of course you aim for just certain age groups. If you asked about Star Wars I bet more people know what you are talking about.
 

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

I bet if you walk down the street and ask about warcraft most people will not know what you are talking about, unless of course you aim for just certain age groups. If you asked about Star Wars I bet more people know what you are talking about.
 

Right... do you not own a TV? Have you not noticed that every other TV ad these days is for WoW? Almost every day another major celebrity sells out and does a WoW ad for some huge sum of money. There must be dirt farmers in Africa who know what WoW is by now. People who don't know that Aeris dies at the end of disk one in FF7 must know what WoW is by now. I'll go so far as to say that anyone who hasn't heard of Warcraft by now must be completely oblivious to what is happening around them.

But ask people about "X-Wing vs TIE fighter" or "Dark Forces" and see how far you get. Most people know Star Wars as a movie but are eiter unaware or uninterested in it as a video game.

Why do people on this website love to pick apart minor details but ignore the actual POINT of a post?

---

Originally posted by lkavadas
Wow, really?  So the whole X-Wing and TIE Fighter series never happened?  Or the original KOTOR?  Or Dark Forces?  Those are just the titles I can think of off the top of my head but I can guarantee you this:
Lucas Arts sold more Star Wars PC games before SWG launched than Blizzard sold Warcrafts.  People tend to forget the original War Craft was f*cking terrible.

---

And whilst SWG was a hit compared to other MMO's at the time, back in 2003 the MMO market just wasnt that big. Then WOW hit the scenes and dragged so many millions more gamers into the MMO space.

No thanks. Let it go back to the depths from whence it came!

Originally posted by lkavadas

Wow, really?  So the whole X-Wing and TIE Fighter series never happened?  Or the original KOTOR?  Or Dark Forces?  Those are just the titles I can think of off the top of my head but I can guarantee you this:

Lucas Arts sold more Star Wars PC games before SWG launched than Blizzard sold Warcrafts.  People tend to forget the original War Craft was f*cking terrible.  It was a turn based POS and that's why Blizzard went into scramble mode to save their company in 1994 and completely ripped off Command & Conquer (itself an evolution of Westwood's previous RTS title, Dune II) with Warcraft II.

The only thing WoW had going for it is that it came hot off the heels of Warcraft III which terrible PC gaming magazines were going ape sh*t over (even though the game was completely pedestrian and still just a poorly done Westwood ripoff).

Wow mate, a nice way to show just how ignorant you really are. As others have pointed out, Warcraft 1 was indeed an RTS, so with Warcraft 2 they just upgraded on the exisitng model.

And yes... Ignore the critical acclaim the third installment got. Forget that, with Starcraft it's THE rts game to be played competitively. Forget it brought in real hero units, an interesting campaign, complex game mechanics and one of the most powerful game editors ever(recently one modder made a simulation of evolution).

The two are so diffrent, that the only thing they probably really have in common is FUN. Yes fun. I do enjoy raping the ass out of my enemy with my blademaster. I also enjoy demolisihing anything on my path with rank 3 Apocalypse tanks and Boris. Yet for me Warcraft 3 is better, for someone else, Red Alert 2 is better. A matter of personal taste. But to say Warcraft 3 is a poorly done Westwood ripoff is blantly ignorant.

Also shame on you for not mentioning Jedi Knight and it's sequel Jedi Outcast. This game was so full of win.

Originally posted by lkavadas

Originally posted by _Shadowmage

- strength of the I.P in the gaming industry - Warcraft were hugely successful games, whereas at the time SWG was released there had not been a good Star Wars game released.

Lucas Arts sold more Star Wars PC games before SWG launched than Blizzard sold Warcrafts.  People tend to forget the original War Craft was f*cking terrible.  It was a turn based POS and that's why Blizzard went into scramble mode to save their company in 1994 and completely ripped off Command & Conquer (itself an evolution of Westwood's previous RTS title, Dune II) with Warcraft II.

The only thing WoW had going for it is that it came hot off the heels of Warcraft III which terrible PC gaming magazines were going ape sh*t over (even though the game was completely pedestrian and still just a poorly done Westwood ripoff).

Wow, quit bitching, everyone grabs ideas from each other in every industry. It's who succeeds with it wins. I believe Blizzard succeeded more than Westwood in the RTS market only by popularity, granted I love both companies; but I never found a similarity between any of the Warcrafts and Starcraft when compared to Command & Conquer (you cuold be bitching about the normal RTS formula, which is quite retarded if I might say so). They were completely different and that is why I played them all. Blizzard won the popularity contest by their Battle.net, Westwood had something similar I believe at the time, but it was completely no match for either Warcraft II or Starcraft's battle.net. Warcraft III took the battle.net system to the next level and just made online gaming a delight, granted I'm not sure of the recent online changes to the newest Command & Conquers, but that is where it's at.. the online. Blizzard is just simply better at it. Their battle.net also has experience from their Diablo franchise. Guess what? It was all free and that was a big ass deal at the time of Warcraft II & Starcraft.

I'd argue how Blizzard redefined the RTS genre by implementing RPG elements correctly into Warcraft III, but it'll be useless because I'm sure someone in the distant universe already had invented it completly shitty and unresponsive (which is your arguement). Else, they would've gotten the same satisfaction, correct?

R.I.P. Tabula Rasa. A lovely attempt to depart from the WoW inspiration, but ultimately too much potential not lived up to.

P.S. Wow popularity=having "Blizzard" name on the box. End of story.

Originally posted by Scottgun

R.I.P. Tabula Rasa. A lovely attempt to depart from the WoW inspiration, but ultimately too much potential not lived up to.

 

P.S. Wow popularity=having "Blizzard" name on the box. End of story.

Funny, TR had Richard "Father of mmorpgs" Garriott, and where did it end up?

WoW popularity = Blizzard being good at what they do and focusing on the game they made. Didn't see any Blizzard devs running away from their game to go on a space jaunt.

I always wanted to try out this game, never got round to it. now I get to play it free for a month hopefully id ont end up liking it

Am I the only one wondering why they can't make it F2P with ingame advertisement?... Exteel & Dungeon Runners are F2P and they run fine, decent population playing the game with quite a number of advertisements in Exteel. RGTR is a futuristic game, so advertisements won't really do any damage to it...

... Seems like I pressed ENTER to early :p so the poll's messed up & can't edit >_<

Originally posted by arrowotwood

Am I the only one wondering why they can't make it F2P with ingame advertisement?... Exteel & Dungeon Runners are F2P and they run fine, decent population playing the game with quite a number of advertisements in Exteel.

Like time I checked Exsteel also has a cash shop... I doubt the in-game ads support it. I've never played Dungeon Runners but I would suspect it is in the same boat.

I just wish that Richard didnt fill his pockets and used TR as an mofo xcuse to get his butt launched in thin air for a shitload of millions, but donated some of his egotestical earned money in the game  and tried to save it but noooo.... jump the ship before its to late and NCsoft just let him get away with it. His goodbye letter from the game is even a bigger laugh

well, if it hasn't already been shouted out come and check out this site:

http://www.changingwind.org/savetr/news.php

All we can do is try =)

Originally posted by hoppimike

well, if it hasn't already been shouted out come and check out this site:

 

http://www.changingwind.org/savetr/news.php

 

All we can do is try =)

Try for what?  TR is not a game alot of people want to play.  It's quite simple really.  The game "as is" isnt interesting enough to capture an audience and allow it to operate at a level that is self sustainable.  Those of us that tried to make suggestions about improving the game and making it a viable option for many gamers were either crucified by the fanbois or ignored.  We gave up and quit.  So tell me, why do you want to save TR?  It barely has an audience. 

Holy Epic necro batman....  really, thats all that can be said here.