Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by expresso

Choice is good and I love GW2 but I thought GW2 didn't require you to farm? Seems like it does unless you pony up the cash.

But hey if any ones wants to spend real cash on vanity items in GW2 or WoW then good for them.

Nothing you mentioned is required to play GW2 so you have a choice in GW2 to farm or not or pay or not. To play WoW you have to pay 15 dollars a month after the first 30 days, not much of a choice

And the winged mount is not required for me to play WoW.. let's stay within the bounds you set please.

Originally posted by Jackdog

how many character slots do you have just out of curiosity? I can buy 4 GW2 boxes for the price of  a copy of WoW and ia year of monthly subcriptions. That is 20 characters and 4 bank vaults. More than i would certainly use.

But as you said if paying 180 dollars year for WoW is worth it to you then so be it. So far I I have spent 25 bucks on Gems and maxxed out my bank space. That is probably all I ever will spend unless they adopt LoTRO's social clothing design and maybe not even then

I have 'my' characters spread across 2 realms, one was my starting realm when i first played the game and the other is the one i moved to when i met my current guild and friends (built new characters rather than transferring), so there are 18 characters there alone (12 L85's, mainly DPS but have a raid geared tank and healer too). My four lads also play at least another 20 slots between them, so around the 40 character slot mark with space left for my Pandaria characters. I also took over my brothers account a little while back for my boys to play at their mothers house when they are there or here when i am on my account.

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by expresso

Choice is good and I love GW2 but I thought GW2 didn't require you to farm? Seems like it does unless you pony up the cash.

But hey if any ones wants to spend real cash on vanity items in GW2 or WoW then good for them.

Nothing you mentioned is required to play GW2 so you have a choice in GW2 to farm or not or pay or not. To play WoW you have to pay 15 dollars a month after the first 30 days, not much of a choice

And the winged mount is not required for me to play WoW.. let's stay within the bounds you set please.

sounds good to me.

GW2 buy the box and play for free, if you want any more than 5 character slots either gind out in game silver or pay S10.00

use available bank space or pay 7.50 per every 30 slots. For 1 year sub @ 15 q month that would be an extra 18 characters or 700 + bank slots or whatever combination you chose

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Originally posted by halflife25

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Originally posted by Keylogger They do not have 10m subs. They're lying. China having 6m paying 5ct an hour does not count. Given the mass influx of competition (Tera, TSW, GW2, Torchlight, PoE and a few other "major" titles) there's no way in hell MoP will sell even as well as Cataclysm did, especially given how burnout all ex-WOW players are and the sour taste Cataclysm & D3 itself left it most of our collective mouths. I'm guessing 1.5 tops, peaking within two weeks of release, maybe 3m by the end of 13's first quarter. Subs will drop to 25% below current levels by the second quarter of 2013.  

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When i read posts like these it gives me sucha  deja vu feeling from pre cata and pre lich king releases lol.

1.5 mill tops sales? really? lets revisit this topic in couple of weeks. And we already know WOW doesn't have 10 mill. They recently announced the 9 mill number.

And that in yellow, i don't know if you are serious or being sarcastic.  Has to be a joke.

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You can bleed a giant to death with pin-pricks.

Originally posted by Keylogger

 

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Originally posted by halflife25

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Originally posted by Keylogger They do not have 10m subs. They're lying. China having 6m paying 5ct an hour does not count. Given the mass influx of competition (Tera, TSW, GW2, Torchlight, PoE and a few other "major" titles) there's no way in hell MoP will sell even as well as Cataclysm did, especially given how burnout all ex-WOW players are and the sour taste Cataclysm & D3 itself left it most of our collective mouths. I'm guessing 1.5 tops, peaking within two weeks of release, maybe 3m by the end of 13's first quarter. Subs will drop to 25% below current levels by the second quarter of 2013.  

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When i read posts like these it gives me sucha  deja vu feeling from pre cata and pre lich king releases lol.

 

1.5 mill tops sales? really? lets revisit this topic in couple of weeks. And we already know WOW doesn't have 10 mill. They recently announced the 9 mill number.

And that in yellow, i don't know if you are serious or being sarcastic.  Has to be a joke.

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You can bleed a giant to death with pin-pricks.

 

Sure let me know when the giant is about to die from the tickling.

Originally posted by Shadoed

 

I have 'my' characters spread across 2 realms, one was my starting realm when i first played the game and the other is the one i moved to when i met my current guild and friends (built new characters rather than transferring), so there are 18 characters there alone (12 L85's, mainly DPS but have a raid geared tank and healer too). My four lads also play at least another 20 slots between them, so around the 40 character slot mark with space left for my Pandaria characters. I also took over my brothers account a little while back for my boys to play at their mothers house when they are there or here when i am on my account.

 

so you are paying for 2 accounts then, that would be 30 dollars a month or 360 per year. That is pretty cheap entertainment don't get me wrong but stil add that up over 3 or 4 years and it is some serious cash.  I can never see me spending much more than the 80 bucks in GW2 that I have already spent. That pretty much maxxed my bank space and I have all the bag space I want from crafting, When I finish leveling my first 5 toons I may buy another character slot or two but that will take me at least 6 months or more and by that time I will most likly just use in game gold to buy the gems to do that.

Originally posted by Ausare
3-4 years of wow..3 months for gw2 to get old.

I bought WoW at release, it took it about 3 weeks maybe for it to get old for me. I played a mage to level 25 before deleting off my hard drive. Was not craxzy about teh graphics and the community was the worst I had ever seen in a game. Never finished the free 30 before I deleted it. A persons milage wil vary.

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Shadoed

 

.

As for paying for the box+sub, well it still gives me value for money in my opinion especially given my playing style and that of my kids (four teenage boys) as well as sheer convenience. All of our character slots, pets, mounts, bags, bank slots, clothing, transmogs, in game help etc, etc, etc.. are all taken care of under the sub, nothing else to worry about. If i wanted to create the same experience in a game like GW2 i would have to buy 5 copies of the game (£175 which is nearly 20 months of subs in WoW) plus whatever it would cost me to garner each account with the various chargable items which is clearly going to cost me more than i am currently paying for my WoW subs, even with the box costs ever now and then.

 

here you go 25 USD for a winged mount

http://us.blizzard.com/store/browse.xml?f=c:5,c:33#p1

BTW you can trade in game gold for gems in GW2 top buy bank slots etc or just buy the gems with cash. options is what itr is all about here. @ 15 a month for a year thta would be 180 US dollars which would buy 14,400 gems to spend as you like

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store

that's a lot

 

say you play the game for 3 years, that's over 500 dollars just in sub fees

A pirate outfit in GW2 is $8 or 700 Gems, based on my time in the GW2, level 62 I have made maybe 5 gold during my 70+ hours,3g has gone to my trait books the rest in craft supplies.  

To buy 600 gems with gold I need about 2 ingame gold so roughly turning that in hours played I can buy a pirate outfit just by playing the game (repeating content mostly) for 25-30 hours.  Don't know about you but i'd rather spend my gold on crafting and gear so if I really wanted that pirate outfit i'd pony up the cash and that is what ANet are aiming for. 

I have 14 Black lion chests an no keys, 1 key in 125 gems or $1.50, during my time I have had maybe 5 keys drop, none for a long while, so thats another $15 I spend or 60 hours I play.

Choice is good and I love GW2 but I thought GW2 didn't require you to farm? Seems like it does unless you pony up the cash.

But hey if any ones wants to spend real cash on vanity items in GW2 or WoW then good for them.

I understand and agree with most of what you are saying but your making it sound like you need to farm for a while which you wont.  I am level 80 and had a little over 7 gold, the night before last, I bought 600 gems for 1g77s50b then logged out.  In the course of my play yesterday, I am back to 6g95s with just doing what I wanted to do, and have bought stuff off the TP yesterday to. 

I get what you are saying but it isnt that hard to make gold.  I think the choice is what makes the system stand out.  I was about to just by Gem s with real money but used the ingame gold instead. 

I do agree that why does anyone care what other people spend their money on.  I don't have my neighbor giving me crap about what lawn mower I bought.

Are people really this poor nowadays?

The question isn´t   $5 or $15 per month.      Sure, i can save $10 and walk 2 miles, but I´d rather take a taxi.

People would really play an inferior game just to save what amounts to pennies per hour?   If that is your best argument.. why not pay AOC.. it´s box is cheaper than GW2 box and it also is f2p?   heck, why not play runescape... no box and f2p?. 

If you play WOW 10hrs per week (which is very little really?.. that is 40 per month... for $15?

I guess poor people have to save every nickel they can.  I can´t imagine wanting to spend 40hrs for an inferior game just to save pocket change.

But that really is the argument?  GW2 is free, so it must be better?

EDIT..  and it really is funny that wow gets the reputation as being the kiddies game...  when most of the arguments in favor of GW2 involve not having enough money to pay a subscription fee.  Funny how at the same time that is happening. WOW sold like 1.5M annual passes...

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Originally posted by Jackdog

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Originally posted by Ausare 3-4 years of wow..3 months for gw2 to get old.

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I bought WoW at release, it took it about 3 weeks maybe for it to get old for me. I played a mage to level 25 before deleting off my hard drive. Was not craxzy about teh graphics and the community was the worst I had ever seen in a game. Never finished the free 30 before I deleted it. A persons milage wil vary.

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Thats a long time to hold such an insubstantial grudge.

With how ArenaNet has been updating GW2 I would say they just increased MoPs sales. Blizzard should send ArenaNet a Thank You card or something.

Originally posted by Azrile

Are people really this poor nowadays?

The question isn´t   $5 or $15 per month.      Sure, i can save $10 and walk 2 miles, but I´d rather take a taxi.

People would really play an inferior game just to save what amounts to pennies per hour?   If that is your best argument.. why not pay AOC.. it´s box is cheaper than GW2 box and it also is f2p?   heck, why not play runescape... no box and f2p?. 

If you play WOW 10hrs per week (which is very little really?.. that is 40 per month... for $15?

I guess poor people have to save every nickel they can.  I can´t imagine wanting to spend 40hrs for an inferior game just to save pocket change.

But that really is the argument?  GW2 is free, so it must be better?

EDIT..  and it really is funny that wow gets the reputation as being the kiddies game...  when most of the arguments in favor of GW2 involve not having enough money to pay a subscription fee.  Funny how at the same time that is happening. WOW sold like 1.5M annual passes...

The issue is, why PAY for a game (e.g. monthly fee plus box) for a game that a poster finds inferior. It is my opinion that GW2 is better than many games (I have played WoW and Rift). That is what you are missing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns-IIn-DG-c

This vid has probably been posted a lot, but it's still relevant to threads like these.  It's not about GW2 either.  It's about the Pay to Play business model, it's strengths, and it's weaknesses.

All fanboi's should look at it objectively.

Originally posted by slicknslim88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns-IIn-DG-c

This vid has probably been posted a lot, but it's still relevant to threads like these.  It's not about GW2 either.  It's about the Pay to Play business model, it's strengths, and it's weaknesses.

All fanboi's should look at it objectively.

Hmmm, wasn't really about 'strengths and weaknesses of the business model' as you put it, it was more about why he thinks the sub model is no good and it was a little difficult to watch that objectively when there is so much bias in the video itself. But let's say that his 'cold hard facts' are somewhat right, where is the consideration to the value that the customer receives from a sub based game as i have documented back on page 6 of this thread. I personally don't want to have to pay out a small fortune on multiple boxes, charater slots, bags, pets etc, etc that i already get included in my current monthly sub game.

If all GW2 players followed his advice and just purchased the box and then never anything from the cash shop, exactly how long do you think the game would last?

Originally posted by Shadoed

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Shadoed

 

Erm......we know this already, figures released only a few weeks ago said it was around 9Mill and OK, don't count the eastern players because you don't like the payment model and just count the 4-5Mill in the west AND wish for it's huge decline of 25%, it will still be bigger than any other subbed game on the market, but as a player who just enjoys the game for what it is does any of that really matter?

Seriously, where does all of this venom come from? You don't like the game, then don't play it. If you used to like and don't anymore, fine move on to something else.

Anyway, on topic. The game still seems to be holding it's core playerbase for the time being and given the sales for cata within the first month hitting 4.7Mill, that roughly bears that out so i would imagine that sales of MoP would follow the same pattern but closer to Wrath levels which would be about 2.7-3Mill in the first 24hrs and moving up somewhere between 4-5Mill in the first month.

in 2008 it had 25 % more active subs abnd you think saless will be the same...don't think so. I am not sure why anyone would pay box fee + Sub + cash shop these days anyway. There are much better and prettier MMO's out there that don't rape yopur credit card every chance they get

On your first point, that is what i had already explained in that WoW still has the core playerbase that has stuck around and i am presuming (righly or wrongly) that the majority of those will have either pre-ordered or will buy MoP within the first month of release. It is of course just a guess as none of us will know until it is actually releases and the sales figures are released, but that is my opinion on the matter.

As for paying for the box+sub, well it still gives me value for money in my opinion especially given my playing style and that of my kids (four teenage boys) as well as sheer convenience. All of our character slots, pets, mounts, bags, bank slots, clothing, transmogs, in game help etc, etc, etc.. are all taken care of under the sub, nothing else to worry about. If i wanted to create the same experience in a game like GW2 i would have to buy 5 copies of the game (£175 which is nearly 20 months of subs in WoW) plus whatever it would cost me to garner each account with the various chargable items which is clearly going to cost me more than i am currently paying for my WoW subs, even with the box costs every now and then.

When you ask questions like that you are presuming that everyone plays the game the same way that you do, but they don't and the box + sub model suits me and many others fine.

If this was the post that was referred to recently.  I have to say a few things.

When you say what the sub gives you, the "character slots, pets, mounts, bags, bank slots, clothing, transmogs, in game help etc etc etc"  I dare not ask what the "etc etc etc" is, because no doubt it will be big stretches like having trinkets and being able to fly anywhere.  Now I'm under the impression, because you brought it up yourself, that because you pay a sub fee, you aren't neglected to any of those things you mentioned BECAUSE you pay a monthly sub fee.  You said yourself, that the sub fee blankets all of those things, which is just entirely untrue.

Some mounts and pets are sold seperately in Blizzard's cash shop, so lets write those off right there.  Also, I think Blizz has a reputation for having some pretty terrible customer service, so lets write that one off too.  What do we have left?  Character slots, bags, bank slots, clothing, and transmogs.

Because you also brought up GW2, I will myself, GW2 does indeed offer players the chance to buy bigger banks, and more bag slots, but these are ENTIRELY unneccessary.  I know this because I've been playing since 3 day head start, and have an 80, as well as multiple level 15 toons and I haven't had issues with storage space in the least.  I use the amazingly convenient features that Anet has put in the game to work my way around purchasing those things.  So let's write those two off also.  

Clothing that people buy in GW2 is entirely cosmetic, but I'll let you have that one because as far as I know WoW doesn't let people buy other outfits on their online shop.  Although defending your sub fee because you have clothing...is a stretch and a laugh.

Transmogs in GW2 are gathered from completing maps, I've got lots of those without spending a dime on them.  So writing that one off too.

Character slots is one that is a bit tricky.  It is no doubt that WoW allows players to have 10 slots of characters to play with (only counting 1 server), and that GW2 comes with only 5 character slots.  Personally I only have 4 professions that I'm interested in so it's not a problem for me.  However there are lots of people who really like having every profession, altaholics and the like.  So this one I will give to you, but it really heavily depends on how addicted to making alt characters a person is, because you can do a TON of stuff with only 1 character, there is certainly no lack of content in GW2 for end game characters, despite the rumors.

So you can get all these things in GW2 without having to pay a subscription fee.  But I said I would give you the character slots, so if you wanted to put down the cash (or the gold, can get gems with gold btw, and not spend a dime either) than you'll put down a bit more, I'm going to be generous and say 30 dollars for those, it's probably much less though, not sure exactly how much it is.

So how long are you goin to defend sub fees when there is a game like GW2 out now that is destroying the "sub fee" business model?

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by Azrile

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by expresso
I would be surprised if MOP pre-order + day 1 sales are close to 4 million (considering Cata sold 3.3 milion in the first 24 hours), but will easily sell 4 million plus in it's first month. Cata sold 4.7 million in it;s first month - not avaliable in china at the time.

As subs have been sliding since Cata, I expect MoP to be less than Wrath at launch. It will pick up, but I don't think we'll see the record-breaking numbers we have for the past releases.

I think that will be the telling sign if WOW actually ´lost´ subs or if there were just a lot of people who temporarily unsubscribed because DS got old.  Did they come back and buy MOP.

I stopped plaing WoW in January after my guild had our fill of raiding Dragon soul, there has been no new content since Dragon soul -  thats 9 months (come on blizzard!).  I assume a lot of people have just done what I did consumed the avaliable content and stop playing until MOP, hence drop in subs but we'll al be back.  Sales figures should be on par if not a little better than Cata but I guess we'll know in a few weeks.

WoW sub numbers have been dropping since mid-WotLK with 2 great drops at the end of LK and another shortly after Cata launched.  WoW only has 4 million true subs.  ANy number greater then that comes from asian internet numbers that Blizzard only usses to enlarge their numbers for investors.  Now that doesnt mean WoW is dieing, and for an 8 year game 4 million subs is still amazing.  I dont get it, I have 2 friends at work who refuse to leave WoW for anything else and I gotta make fun of them every day when they talk about doing the same boring dailies or raiding while I am enjoying the hell out of GW2.

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Originally posted by Zylaxx

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Originally posted by expresso

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Originally posted by Azrile

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Originally posted by WhiteLantern

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Originally posted by expresso I would be surprised if MOP pre-order + day 1 sales are close to 4 million (considering Cata sold 3.3 milion in the first 24 hours), but will easily sell 4 million plus in it's first month. Cata sold 4.7 million in it;s first month - not avaliable in china at the time.

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As subs have been sliding since Cata, I expect MoP to be less than Wrath at launch. It will pick up, but I don't think we'll see the record-breaking numbers we have for the past releases.

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I think that will be the telling sign if WOW actually ´lost´ subs or if there were just a lot of people who temporarily unsubscribed because DS got old.  Did they come back and buy MOP.

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I stopped plaing WoW in January after my guild had our fill of raiding Dragon soul, there has been no new content since Dragon soul -  thats 9 months (come on blizzard!).  I assume a lot of people have just done what I did consumed the avaliable content and stop playing until MOP, hence drop in subs but we'll al be back.  Sales figures should be on par if not a little better than Cata but I guess we'll know in a few weeks.

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WoW sub numbers have been dropping since mid-WotLK with 2 great drops at the end of LK and another shortly after Cata launched.  WoW only has 4 million true subs.  ANy number greater then that comes from asian internet numbers that Blizzard only usses to enlarge their numbers for investors.  Now that doesnt mean WoW is dieing, and for an 8 year game 4 million subs is still amazing.  I dont get it, I have 2 friends at work who refuse to leave WoW for anything else and I gotta make fun of them every day when they talk about doing the same boring dailies or raiding while I am enjoying the hell out of GW2.

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Not going to comment about your derogatory remarks towards Asians.

Why must you ridicule your "friends" for talking about the game they like? When my friends talk about games I dont personally like I dont comment at all. Thats what a good friend does.

Originally posted by Leethe

WoW has something like 6 million western players? Why would anyone not expect it to sell at least that much?

I realize this thread is some sort of pissing contest but is there anyone who really feels that  Pandaland will not outsell GW2? And why are we comparing a game to an expansion of an already existing game?

Between 4 and 4,5 is the most common numbers on sites tracking MMO subs.

Wow have about 10 million players and a year ago, half the players were Chinese. If Chinese and western subscribers left at about same speed we would get 4 million of each and 2 millions from Korea, which seems possible.

Not any sure numbers though, if more western players have quit it would be less, or if more Chinese or Korean players have quit it would be more.

Some people will also get back but my predictions is about 3 million copies the first week. Then again, it is Wow so more is surely possible.

But frankly, comparing a P2P and B2P, or for that matter a 8 year game with a just released game is rather pointless. Comparing the first expansion of GW2 with TBC would make slightly more sense, but just slightly.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

The first drop in subscribers wasnt until 4 months after Cataclysm. Not quite sure what you consider "shortly".
Not going to comment about your derogatory remarks towards Asians.
Why must you ridicule your "friends" for talking about the game they like? When my friends talk about games I dont personally like I dont comment at all. Thats what a good friend does.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-10-world-of-warcraft-subscribers-decrease

The press release were indeed some months after but the actual decrese started before that. The period february to april was the first tim it lost subs in numbers.

Sounds short enough for me.