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World of Warcraft Forum » General Discussion » GW2 at 2M boxes sold, MOP double?

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166 posts found
  Shadoed

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1481

9/16/12 4:56:40 AM#61
Originally posted by Keylogger

They do not have 10m subs.

They're lying.

China having 6m paying 5ct an hour does not count.


Given the mass influx of competition (Tera, TSW, GW2, Torchlight, PoE and a few other "major" titles) there's no way in hell MoP will sell even as well as Cataclysm did, especially given how burnout all ex-WOW players are and the sour taste Cataclysm & D3 itself left it most of our collective mouths.


I'm guessing 1.5 tops, peaking within two weeks of release, maybe 3m by the end of 13's first quarter. Subs will drop to 25% below current levels by the second quarter of 2013.

 

Erm......we know this already, figures released only a few weeks ago said it was around 9Mill and OK, don't count the eastern players because you don't like the payment model and just count the 4-5Mill in the west AND wish for it's huge decline of 25%, it will still be bigger than any other subbed game on the market, but as a player who just enjoys the game for what it is does any of that really matter?

Seriously, where does all of this venom come from? You don't like the game, then don't play it. If you used to like and don't anymore, fine move on to something else.

Anyway, on topic. The game still seems to be holding it's core playerbase for the time being and given the sales for cata within the first month hitting 4.7Mill, that roughly bears that out so i would imagine that sales of MoP would follow the same pattern but closer to Wrath levels which would be about 2.7-3Mill in the first 24hrs and moving up somewhere between 4-5Mill in the first month.

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

9/16/12 5:02:01 AM#62
Originally posted by Keylogger

They do not have 10m subs.

They're lying.

China having 6m paying 5ct an hour does not count.


Given the mass influx of competition (Tera, TSW, GW2, Torchlight, PoE and a few other "major" titles) there's no way in hell MoP will sell even as well as Cataclysm did, especially given how burnout all ex-WOW players are and the sour taste Cataclysm & D3 itself left it most of our collective mouths.


I'm guessing 1.5 tops, peaking within two weeks of release, maybe 3m by the end of 13's first quarter. Subs will drop to 25% below current levels by the second quarter of 2013.

 

When i read posts like these it gives me sucha  deja vu feeling from pre cata and pre lich king releases lol.

1.5 mill tops sales? really? lets revisit this topic in couple of weeks. And we already know WOW doesn't have 10 mill. They recently announced the 9 mill number.

And that in yellow, i don't know if you are serious or being sarcastic.  Has to be a joke.

  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6295

9/16/12 11:31:43 AM#63
Originally posted by Shadoed

 

Erm......we know this already, figures released only a few weeks ago said it was around 9Mill and OK, don't count the eastern players because you don't like the payment model and just count the 4-5Mill in the west AND wish for it's huge decline of 25%, it will still be bigger than any other subbed game on the market, but as a player who just enjoys the game for what it is does any of that really matter?

Seriously, where does all of this venom come from? You don't like the game, then don't play it. If you used to like and don't anymore, fine move on to something else.

Anyway, on topic. The game still seems to be holding it's core playerbase for the time being and given the sales for cata within the first month hitting 4.7Mill, that roughly bears that out so i would imagine that sales of MoP would follow the same pattern but closer to Wrath levels which would be about 2.7-3Mill in the first 24hrs and moving up somewhere between 4-5Mill in the first month.

in 2008 it had 25 % more active subs abnd you think saless will be the same...don't think so. I am not sure why anyone would pay box fee + Sub + cash shop these days anyway. There are much better and prettier MMO's out there that don't rape yopur credit card every chance they get

I miss DAoC

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11296

9/16/12 11:39:03 AM#64
Originally posted by Shadoed

on topic. The game still seems to be holding it's core playerbase for the time being and given the sales for cata within the first month hitting 4.7Mill, that roughly bears that out so i would imagine that sales of MoP would follow the same pattern but closer to Wrath levels which would be about 2.7-3Mill in the first 24hrs and moving up somewhere between 4-5Mill in the first month.

i think thats reasonable - i agree

  User Deleted
9/16/12 11:43:24 AM#65

someone should make a meme showing how these types of posts are irrelevent. It's like comparing SWTOR's launch sales to MOP sales. 

You are comparing a launch of a new title to a well established game's expansion. 

smh but i know i know, someone will be yelling fanboi if they haven't already.

  User Deleted
9/16/12 11:50:53 AM#66
Originally posted by Jackdog
Originally posted by Shadoed

 

Erm......we know this already, figures released only a few weeks ago said it was around 9Mill and OK, don't count the eastern players because you don't like the payment model and just count the 4-5Mill in the west AND wish for it's huge decline of 25%, it will still be bigger than any other subbed game on the market, but as a player who just enjoys the game for what it is does any of that really matter?

Seriously, where does all of this venom come from? You don't like the game, then don't play it. If you used to like and don't anymore, fine move on to something else.

Anyway, on topic. The game still seems to be holding it's core playerbase for the time being and given the sales for cata within the first month hitting 4.7Mill, that roughly bears that out so i would imagine that sales of MoP would follow the same pattern but closer to Wrath levels which would be about 2.7-3Mill in the first 24hrs and moving up somewhere between 4-5Mill in the first month.

in 2008 it had 25 % more active subs abnd you think saless will be the same...don't think so. I am not sure why anyone would pay box fee + Sub + cash shop these days anyway. There are much better and prettier MMO's out there that don't rape yopur credit card every chance they get

completely agree jackdog.  what most fail to realize is the the option to buy doesn't = the requirement to buy.

For games like WoW that have the box + sub + shop they require that you pay out the nose to play.

And then they stiff you. I checked the content in MoP while playing it's beta. That's one of the things that I felt was extremely lacking. They wanted me to pay WHAT? for the amount of content lotro came out with and added to their game for free????

 

Oh and before someone puts in here that they deserve to charge this amount ask yourselves this, where did that entire year of monthly subs they got from people patiently waiting go??? They got paid for this content already. yeah.

Seriously? that's what's happening with this title. Squeeze you for every dime. So glad Anet helped by showing people the lies behind where the monthly subs REALL go. It's definitely not to new content that's for sure. They just required all of their players to pay the monthly fee for a year to wait for this expansion also. And yet somehow the F2P B2P models are considered this by people who are bad at math.

Hey if they want to pay out the teeth for lower quality have at it. but please don't tell the rest of us that there's something wrong with us when we demand more quality for more competative pricing. That's just bad form.

For example, there's only two things really people need to buy in GW2 and that's if they are extremists. Bank tabs and character slots. Bank tabs are 125 silver each. I don't remember character slots but the point is you can buy those with gold as well. No spending on RMAH voila. Why can't people see that?

  User Deleted
9/16/12 11:58:49 AM#67

Its a bit pointless to compare MoP to GW2 as ones an expansion to a game thats been established for over 7 years and the others a new game . WoWs got a player base of 9 million still so its a fair assumption a signifcamt number of that playerbase will want the xpac . I'm playing WoW at the moment but I'm seeing nothing like the kind of excitement over MoP as there was for previous expansions . That may change in the coming weeks of course . I think MoP will fall well short of 4 million units sold on its first day . My estimate is that it will be between 2-.2.5 million which is bloody good but well down on Cataclysm .

If you are going to compare GW2 to WoW sales you really have to look at GW2 and Vanilla WoW in its first month . GW2 has far outsold WoW in those terms . The question is can the momentum be kept up . For the answer to that question we have to wait at least 6 months to a year .

WoWs popularity is in decline in the last 2-3 years its lost roughly a 1/4 of its playerbase . Guild Wars 2 will inevitably chip away at that further but by how much remains to be seen . I think the real danger is if buy to play games flood the market WoW and other subscription based games will stuggle to hold onto subscribers and may have to look at changing thier buisness models .

I will make one prediction I think WoW unless Blizzard does something drastic and addreses the reasons why people are leaving will continue to hemorage subscribers in 2013 . I would estimate they will be somewhere between 6-8 million by the end of next year .

If MoP underperforms by WoWs standards I think heads will roll at Blizzard and we may see a few people lose thier jobs . That actually might be a good thing .

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

9/16/12 12:00:43 PM#68
Originally posted by itgrowls
Originally posted by Jackdog
Originally posted by Shadoed

 

Erm......we know this already, figures released only a few weeks ago said it was around 9Mill and OK, don't count the eastern players because you don't like the payment model and just count the 4-5Mill in the west AND wish for it's huge decline of 25%, it will still be bigger than any other subbed game on the market, but as a player who just enjoys the game for what it is does any of that really matter?

Seriously, where does all of this venom come from? You don't like the game, then don't play it. If you used to like and don't anymore, fine move on to something else.

Anyway, on topic. The game still seems to be holding it's core playerbase for the time being and given the sales for cata within the first month hitting 4.7Mill, that roughly bears that out so i would imagine that sales of MoP would follow the same pattern but closer to Wrath levels which would be about 2.7-3Mill in the first 24hrs and moving up somewhere between 4-5Mill in the first month.

in 2008 it had 25 % more active subs abnd you think saless will be the same...don't think so. I am not sure why anyone would pay box fee + Sub + cash shop these days anyway. There are much better and prettier MMO's out there that don't rape yopur credit card every chance they get

completely agree jackdog.  what most fail to realize is the the option to buy doesn't = the requirement to buy.

For games like WoW that have the box + sub + shop they require that you pay out the nose to play.

And then they stiff you. I checked the content in MoP while playing it's beta. That's one of the things that I felt was extremely lacking. They wanted me to pay WHAT? for the amount of content lotro came out with and added to their game for free????

 

Oh and before someone puts in here that they deserve to charge this amount ask yourselves this, where did that entire year of monthly subs they got from people patiently waiting go??? They got paid for this content already. yeah.

Seriously? that's what's happening with this title. Squeeze you for every dime. So glad Anet helped by showing people the lies behind where the monthly subs REALL go. It's definitely not to new content that's for sure. They just required all of their players to pay the monthly fee for a year to wait for this expansion also. And yet somehow the F2P B2P models are considered this by people who are bad at math.

Hey if they want to pay out the teeth for lower quality have at it. but please don't tell the rest of us that there's something wrong with us when we demand more quality for more competative pricing. That's just bad form.

For example, there's only two things really people need to buy in GW2 and that's if they are extremists. Bank tabs and character slots. Bank tabs are 125 silver each. I don't remember character slots but the point is you can buy those with gold as well. No spending on RMAH voila. Why can't people see that?

You are strawmaning the crap out of this topic. However, if for you WOW is low quality doesn't mean it is true for rest of us. Some of us are capable of enjoying  both games because value of money changes from person to person.  I know a lot who think GW2 wasn't worth the 60 bucks they spent on it.. And then there are players who have spent hundred of dollars on games like WOW, EQ2 etc and they don't regret spending a dime.

You lack prespective and common sense.

  vicentesoul

Novice Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3

Souljeh-

9/16/12 12:17:31 PM#69
Originally posted by roo67

The best we can do is compare Vanilla WoW to GW2 in thier first months sales .

GW2 has sold far more boxes in two weeks so far than WoW did in its first month .

This!!!!!!!! :D

  Worfi

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/12
Posts: 16

9/16/12 12:28:02 PM#70
Originally posted by vicentesoul
Originally posted by roo67

The best we can do is compare Vanilla WoW to GW2 in thier first months sales .

GW2 has sold far more boxes in two weeks so far than WoW did in its first month .

This!!!!!!!! :D

SWTOR too and we see where is SWTOR now and where is wow...

And you think that have nothing with larger MMO player base today, better access for "fast internet",  etc. ?

  DonVadim

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/22/10
Posts: 44

9/16/12 12:41:45 PM#71

Number of boxes sold != quality of the game aka look at diablo 3

Also many of MoP boxes won't be sold to players or normal people but to fanatics who deny existence of any other game, people who live on memories of vanilla wow and buy every expansion because of sentiments to this game.

I agree, Blizzard's model was good (provide expensive quality games), however Activision Blizzard's model is very bad (provide expensive shitty games to milk customers at all cost) and everyone should avoid that company imo.

  stragen001

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 1736

Mr Flibble is VERY cross

9/16/12 12:43:59 PM#72
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Originally posted by Azrile
Originally posted by WhiteLantern
Originally posted by expresso
I would be surprised if MOP pre-order + day 1 sales are close to 4 million (considering Cata sold 3.3 milion in the first 24 hours), but will easily sell 4 million plus in it's first month. Cata sold 4.7 million in it;s first month - not avaliable in china at the time.

As subs have been sliding since Cata, I expect MoP to be less than Wrath at launch. It will pick up, but I don't think we'll see the record-breaking numbers we have for the past releases.

I think that will be the telling sign if WOW actually ´lost´ subs or if there were just a lot of people who temporarily unsubscribed because DS got old.  Did they come back and buy MOP.

Agreed. I'm one of those that was lost to Cata, but MoP looks decent and I'm looking good for about 2 months of it.

This says it all. 

Every time Blizz release a new expansion players stay subbed for less and less time. They buy the expansion, play it, then unsub again because they have completed all the content. Nothing to keep them there anymore. These players will then go (back?) to GW2?

Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6295

9/16/12 12:46:16 PM#73
Originally posted by Worfi
Originally posted by vicentesoul
Originally posted by roo67

The best we can do is compare Vanilla WoW to GW2 in thier first months sales .

GW2 has sold far more boxes in two weeks so far than WoW did in its first month .

This!!!!!!!! :D

SWTOR too and we see where is SWTOR now and where is wow...

And you think that have nothing with larger MMO player base today, better access for "fast internet",  etc. ?

Swotor's design was  WoW in space and had box + subscription business model. . GW2 is to WoW what WoW was to EQ1 a few years back. It conatains a lot of improvement in the MMO game design area which has been basically stagnant since 2004. GW2 is the next step forward for MMOs

I miss DAoC

  Shadoed

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1481

9/16/12 1:12:27 PM#74
Originally posted by Jackdog
Originally posted by Shadoed

 

Erm......we know this already, figures released only a few weeks ago said it was around 9Mill and OK, don't count the eastern players because you don't like the payment model and just count the 4-5Mill in the west AND wish for it's huge decline of 25%, it will still be bigger than any other subbed game on the market, but as a player who just enjoys the game for what it is does any of that really matter?

Seriously, where does all of this venom come from? You don't like the game, then don't play it. If you used to like and don't anymore, fine move on to something else.

Anyway, on topic. The game still seems to be holding it's core playerbase for the time being and given the sales for cata within the first month hitting 4.7Mill, that roughly bears that out so i would imagine that sales of MoP would follow the same pattern but closer to Wrath levels which would be about 2.7-3Mill in the first 24hrs and moving up somewhere between 4-5Mill in the first month.

in 2008 it had 25 % more active subs abnd you think saless will be the same...don't think so. I am not sure why anyone would pay box fee + Sub + cash shop these days anyway. There are much better and prettier MMO's out there that don't rape yopur credit card every chance they get

On your first point, that is what i had already explained in that WoW still has the core playerbase that has stuck around and i am presuming (righly or wrongly) that the majority of those will have either pre-ordered or will buy MoP within the first month of release. It is of course just a guess as none of us will know until it is actually releases and the sales figures are released, but that is my opinion on the matter.

As for paying for the box+sub, well it still gives me value for money in my opinion especially given my playing style and that of my kids (four teenage boys) as well as sheer convenience. All of our character slots, pets, mounts, bags, bank slots, clothing, transmogs, in game help etc, etc, etc.. are all taken care of under the sub, nothing else to worry about. If i wanted to create the same experience in a game like GW2 i would have to buy 5 copies of the game (£175 which is nearly 20 months of subs in WoW) plus whatever it would cost me to garner each account with the various chargable items which is clearly going to cost me more than i am currently paying for my WoW subs, even with the box costs every now and then.

When you ask questions like that you are presuming that everyone plays the game the same way that you do, but they don't and the box + sub model suits me and many others fine.

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6295

9/16/12 1:32:31 PM#75
Originally posted by Shadoed
 

.

As for paying for the box+sub, well it still gives me value for money in my opinion especially given my playing style and that of my kids (four teenage boys) as well as sheer convenience. All of our character slots, pets, mounts, bags, bank slots, clothing, transmogs, in game help etc, etc, etc.. are all taken care of under the sub, nothing else to worry about. If i wanted to create the same experience in a game like GW2 i would have to buy 5 copies of the game (£175 which is nearly 20 months of subs in WoW) plus whatever it would cost me to garner each account with the various chargable items which is clearly going to cost me more than i am currently paying for my WoW subs, even with the box costs ever now and then.

 

here you go 25 USD for a winged mount

http://us.blizzard.com/store/browse.xml?f=c:5,c:33#p1

BTW you can trade in game gold for gems in GW2 top buy bank slots etc or just buy the gems with cash. options is what itr is all about here. @ 15 a month for a year thta would be 180 US dollars which would buy 14,400 gems to spend as you like

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store

that's a lot

 

say you play the game for 3 years, that's over 500 dollars just in sub fees

I miss DAoC

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

9/16/12 1:39:12 PM#76

I see some people are still wondering how others have different views on what gives them best value for their money. 

Got to prove them wrong till they think like me...right?
  expresso

Tipster

Joined: 3/10/10
Posts: 2089

9/16/12 1:52:29 PM#77
Originally posted by Jackdog
Originally posted by Shadoed
 

.

As for paying for the box+sub, well it still gives me value for money in my opinion especially given my playing style and that of my kids (four teenage boys) as well as sheer convenience. All of our character slots, pets, mounts, bags, bank slots, clothing, transmogs, in game help etc, etc, etc.. are all taken care of under the sub, nothing else to worry about. If i wanted to create the same experience in a game like GW2 i would have to buy 5 copies of the game (£175 which is nearly 20 months of subs in WoW) plus whatever it would cost me to garner each account with the various chargable items which is clearly going to cost me more than i am currently paying for my WoW subs, even with the box costs ever now and then.

 

here you go 25 USD for a winged mount

http://us.blizzard.com/store/browse.xml?f=c:5,c:33#p1

BTW you can trade in game gold for gems in GW2 top buy bank slots etc or just buy the gems with cash. options is what itr is all about here. @ 15 a month for a year thta would be 180 US dollars which would buy 14,400 gems to spend as you like

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store

that's a lot

 

say you play the game for 3 years, that's over 500 dollars just in sub fees

A pirate outfit in GW2 is $8 or 700 Gems, based on my time in the GW2, level 62 I have made maybe 5 gold during my 70+ hours,3g has gone to my trait books the rest in craft supplies.  

To buy 600 gems with gold I need about 2 ingame gold so roughly turning that in hours played I can buy a pirate outfit just by playing the game (repeating content mostly) for 25-30 hours.  Don't know about you but i'd rather spend my gold on crafting and gear so if I really wanted that pirate outfit i'd pony up the cash and that is what ANet are aiming for. 

I have 14 Black lion chests an no keys, 1 key in 125 gems or $1.50, during my time I have had maybe 5 keys drop, none for a long while, so thats another $15 I spend or 60 hours I play.

Choice is good and I love GW2 but I thought GW2 didn't require you to farm? Seems like it does unless you pony up the cash.

But hey if any ones wants to spend real cash on vanity items in GW2 or WoW then good for them.

  Shadoed

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/03/03
Posts: 1481

9/16/12 1:56:05 PM#78
Originally posted by Jackdog
Originally posted by Shadoed
 

.

As for paying for the box+sub, well it still gives me value for money in my opinion especially given my playing style and that of my kids (four teenage boys) as well as sheer convenience. All of our character slots, pets, mounts, bags, bank slots, clothing, transmogs, in game help etc, etc, etc.. are all taken care of under the sub, nothing else to worry about. If i wanted to create the same experience in a game like GW2 i would have to buy 5 copies of the game (£175 which is nearly 20 months of subs in WoW) plus whatever it would cost me to garner each account with the various chargable items which is clearly going to cost me more than i am currently paying for my WoW subs, even with the box costs ever now and then.

 

here you go 25 USD for a winged mount

http://us.blizzard.com/store/browse.xml?f=c:5,c:33#p1

BTW you can trade in game gold for gems in GW2 top buy bank slots etc or just buy the gems with cash. options is what itr is all about here. @ 15 a month for a year thta would be 180 US dollars which would buy 14,400 gems to spend as you like

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gem_Store

that's a lot

 

say you play the game for 3 years, that's over 500 dollars just in sub fees

....and your point is? I said it was value for money for me, not you, joe bloggs down the road or anyone else, me (and i suppose the other few million that still pay it).

I have never purchased anything from the blizzard store, never had to and probably never will as it doesn't really interest me that much when i already have a massive variety in the game itself. On your 14,400 gems bit, it wouldnt even cover half of the character slots i currently use let alone bag slots, pets, transmutes etc, but again that is just me.

Well done on your maths BTW, but again it is neither here nor there, it is money spent in exchange for the entertainment i have already enjoyed. I can buy fish and chips from the local chip shop for £2.49 which i may do from time to time, but i also enjoy going out to eat with friends at a pub for example where the fish and chips will cost me £6.95 instead as well as a beer which will cost me £3 a time that is just going to get pissed down the drain the next day and tap water would have cost me nothing. None of that is about the money spent it is about the experience of spending time with my friends and enjoying myself, the same reason i spend on my sub every month for WoW which incidentally is a damned site cheaper than that one night out.

If you can enjoy your experience in GW2 without having to spend any money then all power to you and i think that it is a great move for the industry and those it suits, but it just doesn't suit me, WoW's current sub model suits me better whether you wish to accept that or not is up to you.

 

It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6295

9/16/12 2:06:31 PM#79
Originally posted by expresso

Choice is good and I love GW2 but I thought GW2 didn't require you to farm? Seems like it does unless you pony up the cash.

But hey if any ones wants to spend real cash on vanity items in GW2 or WoW then good for them.

Nothing you mentioned is required to play GW2 so you have a choice in GW2 to farm or not or pay or not. To play WoW you have to pay 15 dollars a month after the first 30 days, not much of a choice

I miss DAoC

  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6295

9/16/12 2:12:58 PM#80
Originally posted by Shadoed
 

....and your point is? I said it was value for money for me, not you, joe bloggs down the road or anyone else, me (and i suppose the other few million that still pay it).

I have never purchased anything from the blizzard store, never had to and probably never will as it doesn't really interest me that much when i already have a massive variety in the game itself. On your 14,400 gems bit, it wouldnt even cover half of the character slots i currently use let alone bag slots, pets, transmutes etc, but again that is just me.

Well done on your maths BTW, but again it is neither here nor there, it is money spent in exchange for the entertainment i have already enjoyed. I can buy fish and chips from the local chip shop for £2.49 which i may do from time to time, but i also enjoy going out to eat with friends at a pub for example where the fish and chips will cost me £6.95 instead as well as a beer which will cost me £3 a time that is just going to get pissed down the drain the next day and tap water would have cost me nothing. None of that is about the money spent it is about the experience of spending time with my friends and enjoying myself, the same reason i spend on my sub every month for WoW which incidentally is a damned site cheaper than that one night out.

If you can enjoy your experience in GW2 without having to spend any money then all power to you and i think that it is a great move for the industry and those it suits, but it just doesn't suit me, WoW's current sub model suits me better whether you wish to accept that or not is up to you.

 

how many character slots do you have just out of curiosity? I can buy 4 GW2 boxes for the price of  a copy of WoW and ia year of monthly subcriptions. That is 20 characters and 4 bank vaults. More than i would certainly use.

But as you said if paying 180 dollars year for WoW is worth it to you then so be it. So far I I have spent 25 bucks on Gems and maxxed out my bank space. That is probably all I ever will spend unless they adopt LoTRO's social clothing design and maybe not even then

I miss DAoC

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