Originally posted by Brenelael

...And it's this attitude that has led to the downfall of community in MMOs. Community is the only reason to even play a MMO. Without community a MMO is nothing more than a piss poor single player/CORPG game. That is the direction the genre is heading and people seem to be lining up for it. It is some dark times for the MMO genre. MMOs will soon be no more than lobby CORPGs in the near future I fear.

Only dark times for those who refuse to have fun any other way.

For gamers, MMOs have never been better.  (And are nowhere near "lobby CORPGs" although gamers love those too -- aka Diablo 3)

WoW has just as much community as any other MMORPG. The difference is WoW doesn't sacrifice gameplay to force it upon people. The LFD and LFR systems are some of the best features ever introduced to this genre, and I'd not play a game that did not have them.

Originally posted by OgreRaper

WoW has just as much community as any other MMORPG. The difference is WoW doesn't sacrifice gameplay to force it upon people. The LFD and LFR systems are some of the best features ever introduced to this genre, and I'd not play a game that did not have them.

It's all a matter of personal taste. For me the LFD tool and battlegrounds killed the game. The huge world with great zones became ghost towns and questing became obsolete because of the LFD. Battlegrounds killed open world PVP i.e the epic battles in Tauren Mill/ Southshore and other areas of the game world.

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by OgreRaper

WoW has just as much community as any other MMORPG. The difference is WoW doesn't sacrifice gameplay to force it upon people. The LFD and LFR systems are some of the best features ever introduced to this genre, and I'd not play a game that did not have them.

It's all a matter of personal taste. For me the LFD tool and battlegrounds killed the game. The huge world with great zones became ghost towns and questing became obsolete because of the LFD. Battlegrounds killed open world PVP i.e the epic battles in Tauren Mill/ Southshore and other areas of the game world.

You have no clue about what you are talking about.

All the starting zones were empty BEFORE LFD. Back in WOTLK, most people are at max level will be in dalaran spamming "lfg" in the trade channel. Then you fly there and run the daily H or weekly raid. Zones being empty has NOTHING to do with LFD. The only thing it does is to make the lfg process MUCH better.

PvP was killed long time ago before LFD/LFR. BTW, pvp was never that popular. There were a lot of complaint about inconvenience of open world pvp.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by OgreRaper

WoW has just as much community as any other MMORPG. The difference is WoW doesn't sacrifice gameplay to force it upon people. The LFD and LFR systems are some of the best features ever introduced to this genre, and I'd not play a game that did not have them.

It's all a matter of personal taste. For me the LFD tool and battlegrounds killed the game. The huge world with great zones became ghost towns and questing became obsolete because of the LFD. Battlegrounds killed open world PVP i.e the epic battles in Tauren Mill/ Southshore and other areas of the game world.

You have no clue about what you are talking about.

All the starting zones were empty BEFORE LFD. Back in WOTLK, most people are at max level will be in dalaran spamming "lfg" in the trade channel. Then you fly there and run the daily H or weekly raid. Zones being empty has NOTHING to do with LFD. The only thing it does is to make the lfg process MUCH better.

PvP was killed long time ago before LFD/LFR. BTW, pvp was never that popular. There were a lot of complaint about inconvenience of open world pvp.

There is no need to be rude, thanks. Also I meant to come back and edit the post and say that I know that LFD/LFR had sadly become neccesary because the game had been out so long and these aspects of the game were already fading away.  Unfortunately something came up in RL that prevented me from editing.  LFD was the final straw that turned the game worlds zones into ghost towns in my opinion though.

I will however disagree about world PVP being an inconvenience to many players. As I said some of the best memories for myself and many others were the big open world PVP battles we got into in various regions of the World. Did they give rewards, or really accomplish anything,  no but it was a hell of a lot of fun. Battlegrounds were the nail in the coffin for that part of PVP. However this post was not about Battlegrounds so I digress.

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by OgreRaper

WoW has just as much community as any other MMORPG. The difference is WoW doesn't sacrifice gameplay to force it upon people. The LFD and LFR systems are some of the best features ever introduced to this genre, and I'd not play a game that did not have them.

It's all a matter of personal taste. For me the LFD tool and battlegrounds killed the game. The huge world with great zones became ghost towns and questing became obsolete because of the LFD. Battlegrounds killed open world PVP i.e the epic battles in Tauren Mill/ Southshore and other areas of the game world.

You have no clue about what you are talking about.

All the starting zones were empty BEFORE LFD. Back in WOTLK, most people are at max level will be in dalaran spamming "lfg" in the trade channel. Then you fly there and run the daily H or weekly raid. Zones being empty has NOTHING to do with LFD. The only thing it does is to make the lfg process MUCH better.

PvP was killed long time ago before LFD/LFR. BTW, pvp was never that popular. There were a lot of complaint about inconvenience of open world pvp.

There is no need to be rude, thanks. Also I meant to come back and edit the post and say that I know that LFD/LFR had sadly become neccesary because the game had been out so long and these aspects of the game were already fading away.  Unfortunately something came up in RL that prevented me from editing.  LFD was the final straw that turned the game worlds zones into ghost towns in my opinion though.

I will however disagree about world PVP being an inconvenience to many players. As I said some of the best memories for myself and many others were the big open world PVP battles we got into in various regions of the World. Did they give rewards, or really accomplish anything,  no but it was a hell of a lot of fun. Battlegrounds were the nail in the coffin for that part of PVP. However this post was not about Battlegrounds so I digress.

Ok .. i apologize for a bit heavy on the language but i think my point stands.

World pvp was taken away because of complaints of incovenience. Sure you like it, but a lot of people don't. Many just don't like the idea of additional hassle on the road when they are going somewhere to turn in a quest or for whatever reasons.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by OgreRaper

WoW has just as much community as any other MMORPG. The difference is WoW doesn't sacrifice gameplay to force it upon people. The LFD and LFR systems are some of the best features ever introduced to this genre, and I'd not play a game that did not have them.

It's all a matter of personal taste. For me the LFD tool and battlegrounds killed the game. The huge world with great zones became ghost towns and questing became obsolete because of the LFD. Battlegrounds killed open world PVP i.e the epic battles in Tauren Mill/ Southshore and other areas of the game world.

You have no clue about what you are talking about.

All the starting zones were empty BEFORE LFD. Back in WOTLK, most people are at max level will be in dalaran spamming "lfg" in the trade channel. Then you fly there and run the daily H or weekly raid. Zones being empty has NOTHING to do with LFD. The only thing it does is to make the lfg process MUCH better.

PvP was killed long time ago before LFD/LFR. BTW, pvp was never that popular. There were a lot of complaint about inconvenience of open world pvp.

There is no need to be rude, thanks. Also I meant to come back and edit the post and say that I know that LFD/LFR had sadly become neccesary because the game had been out so long and these aspects of the game were already fading away.  Unfortunately something came up in RL that prevented me from editing.  LFD was the final straw that turned the game worlds zones into ghost towns in my opinion though.

I will however disagree about world PVP being an inconvenience to many players. As I said some of the best memories for myself and many others were the big open world PVP battles we got into in various regions of the World. Did they give rewards, or really accomplish anything,  no but it was a hell of a lot of fun. Battlegrounds were the nail in the coffin for that part of PVP. However this post was not about Battlegrounds so I digress.

Ok .. i apologize for a bit heavy on the language but i think my point stands.

World pvp was taken away because of complaints of incovenience. Sure you like it, but a lot of people don't. Many just don't like the idea of additional hassle on the road when they are going somewhere to turn in a quest or for whatever reasons.

 

People didn't complain about World PvP being inconvenient. World PvP died the day Battlegrounds were introduced. It went away silently. Because frankly; why go out there and pick a fight when you can queue up for one, with added rewards (Marks).

I disagree how people blame the LFD/LFR as the degregation of the community.  The community itself, the fact that intances/heroics/raids became facerolls, gear progressions was to the point of trivilizing instances, and the massive popularity of WoW has lead to the so called degregation of said community.  All what the LFD/LFR brought was a more effective and more oppurtunities to tackle on grp content.  Prior to the LFD I've had real asshats just like the asshats we encounter today.  As far as reputation, Blizzard needs to have a report system.. a reputation of sorts or at the very least get rid of that damn restriciton of not allowing to boot people when in/shortly after combat and when items are being rolled on.

What I've seen in WoW is not different than any other MMO, and not to mention that most people I encounter are good, honest folks who pull their own weight around.  Sure we have some real asshats but those are trhe occasional encounter.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Lazarus71

Originally posted by OgreRaper

WoW has just as much community as any other MMORPG. The difference is WoW doesn't sacrifice gameplay to force it upon people. The LFD and LFR systems are some of the best features ever introduced to this genre, and I'd not play a game that did not have them.

It's all a matter of personal taste. For me the LFD tool and battlegrounds killed the game. The huge world with great zones became ghost towns and questing became obsolete because of the LFD. Battlegrounds killed open world PVP i.e the epic battles in Tauren Mill/ Southshore and other areas of the game world.

You have no clue about what you are talking about.

All the starting zones were empty BEFORE LFD. Back in WOTLK, most people are at max level will be in dalaran spamming "lfg" in the trade channel. Then you fly there and run the daily H or weekly raid. Zones being empty has NOTHING to do with LFD. The only thing it does is to make the lfg process MUCH better.

PvP was killed long time ago before LFD/LFR. BTW, pvp was never that popular. There were a lot of complaint about inconvenience of open world pvp.

There is no need to be rude, thanks. Also I meant to come back and edit the post and say that I know that LFD/LFR had sadly become neccesary because the game had been out so long and these aspects of the game were already fading away.  Unfortunately something came up in RL that prevented me from editing.  LFD was the final straw that turned the game worlds zones into ghost towns in my opinion though.

I will however disagree about world PVP being an inconvenience to many players. As I said some of the best memories for myself and many others were the big open world PVP battles we got into in various regions of the World. Did they give rewards, or really accomplish anything,  no but it was a hell of a lot of fun. Battlegrounds were the nail in the coffin for that part of PVP. However this post was not about Battlegrounds so I digress.

Ok .. i apologize for a bit heavy on the language but i think my point stands.

World pvp was taken away because of complaints of incovenience. Sure you like it, but a lot of people don't. Many just don't like the idea of additional hassle on the road when they are going somewhere to turn in a quest or for whatever reasons.

 

I understand that completely but that's what PVE servers were for. You got all the same gameplay as a pvp server without that problem.

Originally posted by Lazarus71

 

I understand that completely but that's what PVE servers were for. You got all the same gameplay as a pvp server without that problem.

That is why I am playing on a PvE server. World pvp is taken away from pvp serveres? That is not my impression. I assume whoever wants to be on a pvp server ... wants pvp.

The fact of the matter is the community was in the toilet way before the LFD tool came out.  The original idea of the LFD was so that groups of people could experience certain instances without the tiresome need to post constantly and get lucky for a complete group.

Problem is it went to a new level where the feature became so successful that most people logon and just spend most of their time hanging around a capital city waiting for the timer to pop. Thats the situation now, you can litterally logon this evening and kill the last raid boss of this expansion without dealing with anyone on your server.

You know why thats the case? Because the community is so shite in wow whats the point of dealing with them? There was a time where servers did have communities, there were server jokes, notable characters, people made lists of those who were douches.  Now, it doesn't matter you can be the biggest dick and nothing changes because as long as your pulling numbers and are willinging thats great.

That was way before the LFD but the system gives arseholes another screen to hide behind.

Blizzard managed to turn WoW into a lobby game with all the "convenience" options introduced; spray, rinse and repeat, no challenge, no community and no sense of accomplishment ofc.

I run a a few UBRS, LBRS and BRD solo tours and I kept thinking: "Wow (no pun), this sure was hard at lvl 60". I still remember the satisfaction earned from getting a good group and doing UBRS or BRD. this was futher enhanced by the randomness in drops when one managed to get what he was after.

WoW can become an enjoyable game again, but I hope another MMO challenges Blizzard's reign and forces them to reconsider because at the moment, the strategic approach they have is quantity over quality. Only by focusing back on quality can they revamp WoW to compete for the coming years.

Quality does not always equal convenience; you have an MMO centered around completing quests and improving you character through gear (in order to complete more difficult quests, i.e. raids). If this is the gameplay focus meant to be challenging, then rewards shouldn't be automatically handed over to players simply by mindless repetition (yes, I'm talking about VP, JP, dungeon difficulty options and this ingame-store approach that's completely taking away the challenge factor).

Originally posted by Galadourn

Blizzard managed to turn WoW into a lobby game with all the "convenience" options introduced; spray, rinse and repeat, no challenge, no community and no sense of accomplishment ofc.

Sadly yes but that's what the 'gamer' of today wants and expects, as opposed to the MMOer of yester year.

I made some fantastic friends over the years running dungeons pre x-realm LFD. I didn't know everybody on server, but I knew a lot of people, I knew guild tags and what they meant, I knew the pvpers and had a lot of respect for the guys from the opposing faction. That was community.

Running in a guild just isn't the same thing and that's why I quit, because the chances of me meeting and playing with peeps from my own server was virtually zero outside a guild and an established group of friends, friends who were slowly quitting one by one and not being replenished.

It's pointless to argue now though as Blizz's vision is purely monetary based and they're chasing the bucks of the people who like convenience. It will never be like it was. Can only hope someday someone creates an old school MMO with the emphasis back on community and immersion.

Back in the day my main had quite a reputation on our server, or at least it seemed that way to me as i was remembered, by characters i didnt really know

When i entered a group i may have had an idea bout hte other players, infact id sometimes boast to my guild mates who i was grouped with.

With the cross server grouping, this doesnt happen, its a shame. It was probably one of hte best ways of standing out in WOW.

Also, in battlegrounds you knew who was who, and if you had a chance.

Originally posted by Omnifish

The fact of the matter is the community was in the toilet way before the LFD tool came out.  The original idea of the LFD was so that groups of people could experience certain instances without the tiresome need to post constantly and get lucky for a complete group.

 

Problem is it went to a new level where the feature became so successful that most people logon and just spend most of their time hanging around a capital city waiting for the timer to pop. Thats the situation now, you can litterally logon this evening and kill the last raid boss of this expansion without dealing with anyone on your server.

 

You know why thats the case? Because the community is so shite in wow whats the point of dealing with them? There was a time where servers did have communities, there were server jokes, notable characters, people made lists of those who were douches.  Now, it doesn't matter you can be the biggest dick and nothing changes because as long as your pulling numbers and are willinging thats great.

 

That was way before the LFD but the system gives arseholes another screen to hide behind.

Accurate indeed. I certainly remember the days before LFG tool, and the community truly wasn't much better then it is now. The community has alwasy been lousy in this game. It wasn't even great in vanilla. The issue isn't even LFG, it's the lack of any consequences for bad behavior as a whole. Blizzard don't really care about providing active GMs like they used to.

speaking of community, you know, the times i never forget in wow are the times from the second year of release:

- killing that annoying rogue lagspiking everyone in AV, twice in a row. from his horse. 

- killing that boss in zul gurub with last man standing while everybody was energized and motivated. ventrilo got nuts.

- just for the heck of it laughing so hard at a guildie on vent who couldn't find the entrance to molten core and jumped in the lava. vent echo'd all over the place which made it funnier and people laughed harder.

- finding my first blue item which was the ring from that rare goblin in stranglethorn vale and forgetting to pick it up XD

- raiding molten core with half the raid afk while we hadn't even finished raggy yet.

- raging about some player spamming, trolling or begging and something was actually done about it by the community. people cared.

- getting an epic, posting it in guildchat and getting everybody's respect.

- going to a 5-mans and actually finishing with the entire group that started it.

- kicking lamer ass because everything was server based so you couldnt go fuck off to another server.

- being respected for putting in your time and effort and helping out people. this is how i actually got a GM spot and got my guild up to top5 on the server. back when WoW motivated people rather than annoying them nowadays. i mean, read that blizz post even they are not denying it. incredible!