Originally posted by redcloud16

A talent revamp =/= surprise game reset.

Imagine waking up one day and your is now compeltely deleted from the game, a few days after buying an expansion THAT HAD JUST EXPANDED THAT CLASSES CONTENT, as well as the content from the rest of the game. 

All gone. 

Everything you earned. Trained. Accomplished.

And all you got in return was the brand new ability to glow like Obi-wan's ghost on a new character.

Talk about being trolled...

(And no I didn't really play SWG, but I read about what happened and I can only say that it sounded absolutely horrible)

This is the NGE in a nutshell, what they did to many classes can be compared that you log in and find that your Palladin now have to pick one spec... and one spec only for ever... And that the hunter was simply gone completley and instead all people could now level a secondary proffesion that gave you a waterd down version of the hunters skills.

 

Don't go pulling the NGE card unless you actually know what you are talking about.

 

As for the new class builds, perhaps you should try them out before you say they will destroy the game.

Originally posted by GameOvr

You know, I plyed WoW since it was out for four months, non stop, on a single character.

 

A mage and I played fire, frost, and arcane for several years each, and you know what, that the idea that  there is a single 'cookie cutter' build is complete BS. Even in the most cookie cutter build there are leftover points that you can do what you want with.

 

And if you cruise over to talentchic.com you might notice more than one build per tree.

 

So quit trying to defend crap with bullshit.

Fire and arcane were oh so cookie cutter (and yes I played mage for 5 years as main as well), with a few extra points over to twiddle here and there on marginal talents, and even then you often had overbearing people telling you this talent was better than that etc.  Asside from this the trees were grossly simplified and dull.  Root cause:  simple tree or complex tree, with the nature of this game, its allways about minmaxing, and that means 1 build by definition will be the max build - generally its arcane or fire, there have only been maybe 5 months in the lifetime of wow where both were equal.

Originally posted by tawess

Don't go pulling the NGE card unless you actually know what you are talking about.

Fair enough, I apologize. I was being a bit melodramatic. 

 

Point being, comparing it to the NGE was kind of silly. Perhaps not in terms of intent, but more in terms of scope. 

Originally posted by redcloud16

Originally posted by tawess

Don't go pulling the NGE card unless you actually know what you are talking about.

Fair enough, I apologize. I was being a bit melodramatic. 

 

Point being, comparing it to the NGE was kind of silly. Perhaps not in terms of intent, but more in terms of scope. 

I am not a fan of the new MoP WoW over simplied talent trees but yeah the title was overboard. Blizzard is moving WoW towards a non thinking, totally twitch game. If I wanted that I would just go play a fps.  

Originally posted by catlana

I am not a fan of the new MoP WoW over simplied talent trees but yeah the title was overboard. Blizzard is moving WoW towards a non thinking, totally twitch game. If I wanted that I would just go play a fps.  

How does spending less points in some talent tree equal WoW suddenly playing like a FPS?

The answer is it doesnt, it will be almost exactly the same game is always been.

Maybe they are "toning it down" so it's easier to manage on a console. Never know with Blizzard. First pandas, now Chuck Norris....what next? Personally I would have rather had Emerald Dream and have murlocks and naga as playable races.

After reading up more of the MoP talent changes recently it definitely is like NGE.  More like NGE-lite, but still a poor move by Blizz if tthey go through with it.  The bleeding of subs will continue if they choose to stick with this path.

I am not paying Blizz money to have to re-earn level 70 talents at 90.  As players we must take a stand and vote with our wallets that we expect more from expansions.

 

 

Originally posted by Hoplites

I am not paying Blizz money to have to re-earn level 70 talents at 90.  

Well considering you can get awesome talents from other specs, I'd say thats a small price to pay.

Originally posted by tawess

Don't go pulling the NGE card unless you actually know what you are talking about.

agreed.

Not to mention the volume of info being provided so people know what is coming. I don't recall the pre-CU/pre-NGE players having such luxuries.

This, so far (and as a vanilla, and current, wow player as well) looks like the game progressing down the path it has been headed. As tawess pointed out though, I'll have to reserve further judgement for when I can actually test it out.

Now, if you'll excuse me I need to log on to my Master Ranger/Rifleman...oh, son of a.....

Originally posted by Teh_Axi

Originally posted by Hoplites

I am not paying Blizz money to have to re-earn level 70 talents at 90.  

Well considering you can get awesome talents from other specs, I'd say thats a small price to pay.

The price is too huge.

MoP provides the illusion you have more choice pitting you to choose between a once base line ability versus a once talent defining ability of a tree.  That isn't choice.

I didn't level to 85 to have to choose between Combat Readiness or Evasion.  Now, I must choose between CR or DT interrupt?

 

---

Originally posted by snapfusion
To me combat is king for MMO's
I'm going to say it.   The dismantling of the beloved talent trees and all the depth and complexiity that goes with it, being replaced with basically a linear character skill system hints towards a new game exerience combat model that shall we say didnt go over so well for another  company.
I cant imaging blizzard changing the talent tree so radically without also removing all the nuances that made each class challenging and allowing the best players to allways have some trick up their sleeve.
It was the depth of the talent tree system the allowed the spells and abilities to be unique and fun, without all those ittle tweaks I'm imagining a much more simpfied an boring combat experience.  Just stuff like higer crit chance, more endurance etc.  But probably worded like "More kick assness rank 1"  "Evenmore kick assnes rank 2" or "You are harder to kil rank 1" "You are even harder to kill rank 2"
We shall see.

---

Wasn't there for SWG NGE thing, but I have been playing WoW for a long time. I've also slept at a Holiday Inn.

WoW's talent system has been a linear system of following a template since the Burning Crusade. Nuances may have existed, but they didn't (and don't) matter because there is always a 'best' build. 10 people experimented and 10 Million people followed their leads.

What will change is the removal of 'best' talent trees for each class. You'll pick the tree you like, and then pick the skills you like. The end result will be a character that you like. The other people around you will do the same thing, and the difference between you and the next guy is how well you play your character.

Since this is an mmorpg though, and WoW in particular, really the difference will be how long you've played and how much gear you've accumulated while playing. Which is the way it is now. Again, it won't change WoW's combat much, if at all, except people might actually like their talent trees instead of just playing the 'best' one.

Originally posted by Hoplites

Now, I must choose between CR or DT interrupt? 

You gain options like Prep, Shadowstep and Deadly brew, so you lose one weaker ability to gain other stronger ones. Your also not stuck with a specfic 31 pointer, if say you'd perfer Shadowdance for its utility potential rather than Killing Spree. Those are real new choices, like I said that is a small price to pay for what you'll get in return as many specs.

Blizzard have pretty much stated they don't want certain specs to have large amount of utility, so spec like sub rogues and frost mages will lose out in that sense but for most everyone else this does open new possbilities.

 

Originally posted by Supersoups

Originally posted by Puuk

NGE? Really? *double-face-palm-and-groan*

Welcome to mmorpg.com. You will get used to exxageration and hyperbole soon ;)

+1

Originally posted by Teh_Axi

Originally posted by Hoplites

Now, I must choose between CR or DT interrupt? 

You gain options like Prep, Shadowstep and Deadly brew, so you lose one weaker ability to gain other stronger ones. Your also not stuck with a specfic 31 pointer, if say you'd perfer Shadowdance for its utility potential rather than Killing Spree. Those are real new choices, like I said that is a small price to pay for what you'll get in return as many specs.

Blizzard have pretty much stated they don't want certain specs to have large amount of utility, so spec like sub rogues and frost mages will lose out in that sense but for most everyone else this does open new possbilities.

 

 

You have to choose prep or shadowstep.  For a sub rogue that once had both options that is a DOWNGRADE.   There are no real choices, but the illusion of it.

A combat rogue loses out too as well as an Assisination rogue.

What Blizz has presented is merely a shell game, especially taking a base line ability like Combat Readiness and turning it into a talent.

The choice to lose base line abilities is a bad one.

Originally posted by Hoplites

 The choice to lose base line abilities is a bad one.

You lose some but gain others, personally I'll take the new options opened despite any minor losses.

I do play a rogue for the record.

Originally posted by monstermmo

lol Depth of the talent tree system?

No matter what ever since the game was out theres always basically been one single "valid" build for each class type with maybe 1 or 2 very subtle differences.

I like what theyre doing.

Thats not true, its just a misunderstanding by people who only ever used cookie cutter builds anyway. Just because you didn't understand how to do it, didn't mean other builds weren't around. Even up to Wrath their were numerous DK builds, All kinds of strange pvp builds even amongst linear classes like Shadow priests. Or do you think their were numerous talent build sites, including EJ because there was only one talent spec per class, thats just foolish. But alot of people who like over simplisity like these changes, it makes them feel equal and lets them think less.

Originally posted by wormywyrm

Starwars Galaxies STILL retained more depth than WoW after the NGE, and the NGE was done to make SWG more like WoW.  So the fact that Blizzard is trying to make their game even more simplified is somewhat hilarious to me...

Although I have become really addicted lately to Realm of the Mad God and I find its simplicity refreshing so I can't talk too much shit.  That has more to do with the permadeath though, something WoW would never do. 

I support what WoW is doing.  Complexity should not be arbitrary, and in WoW it was/is (as far as talent tree goes).  The complexity of the talent trees was not benefiting anyone.  It was complex for complex-sake.  This is not the case in SWG, its complexity was really interesting and made combat pretty fun.  It just needed some balancing and instead they destroyed it.

lol, did you watch the 12hr WTF-A-THON as well?

Having played both games for years... I think it's really a fair assessment.

Why?

How?

...

SWG did not just change with the NGE.  It changed with the CU(RB) - Combat Upgrade (Re-Balance). 

I think that when Blizz took away the ability to really use hybrids and truly customize your character... that was the CU(RB) for WoW.

They changed the way you played your class.

Period

Everyone was forced into nice 'rank and file' builds with maybe 1-2 extra points left over to 'play with'.  You MUST place this many talent points into talent tree X before you can put any into antoher talent tree.

Again, removal of options.  Forced to play your class in 1 way.   And no, dual-spec didn't help, tbh. 

...

Flash forward...

The new talent tree's for MoP don't really reverse the effects that were brought on with the changes leading into Cataclysm.  And, I think the point that everyone is trying to make against the new talent tree's is... there are too few choices.  There just seems to be too many things that have been 'taken away'. 

Chalk it up to raw and initial knee-jerk reactions to having an increased reduction in the number of choices we have... but this really does look like they are stripping more options.

In a game where everyone has been asking for a way to customize their characters and try to set themselve apart from the others... this change looks like it's going in the other direction. 

...

And then, to add insult to injury, classic and iconic abilities of one class were handed out to other classes. 

So, not only did Blizz oversimplify choices you make within your own class and character... they made picking a class even easier by having increased amount of overlap of abilities between classes. 

I loved playing as 'class x' because I brought this buff or that ability to the table when I played in a group.  I knew what I added to the overall synergy of the team.  Then, being able to play with the talents to increase the number of utilties that I could bring into the picture. 

I know that Blizz think's they are 'helping' with the reduction. 

They aren't.

Overall, the NGE was an absolute dumbing down of SWG.  They reduced the number of classes and build options. 

I really don't feel 'NGE' (New Game Experience) is a bad label for the new talent experience... it really is fairly accurate.

Well maybe if:

- The Hunter Class was removed altogether (as per creature handler/Bio Engineer)

- Each class only had one talent tree (as per NGE 'iconic classes')

- The DK starting zone and experience was removed and they just became  a level one option (as per NGE Jedi)

- Dual spec was removed (as per NGE removal of ability to change class/role)

- Another four classes were randomly cut (NGE iconic classes were about half in number of Pre-NGE Master Professions)

- A couple of professions were scrapped (it's hard to find a suitable equivalent for the removal of Crafter classes in NGE, so this will have to do.)

- Gems became reusable to screw over JCs (best equivalent I can find to item decay removal.)

- Oh, and none of this was patched in or announced at all until two days AFTER MoP was released (as per the Wookie expansion)

...then maybe this would begin to make sense. 

Oh, and after I had chosen my 'required' talents in WoW (those that were mathematically necessary for me to do the best I could, certainly necessary to get in to a raid guild) I had three points left to play with. There's at least four Talent ranks in MoP where it looks like I'll have genuine choice, so MoP is an improvement for me.

Originally posted by BlackWatch

I really don't feel 'NGE' (New Game Experience) is a bad label for the new talent experience... it really is fairly accurate.

No it isn't, the reason being that WoW will still be the same game it is today and has always been.