The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.

Originally posted by Pappy13

That is the question that I am asking.  I doubt it.

Then what makes one game "harder" than another for you? Time not being a consideration.

Originally posted by Taliasin

 

The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.

 

Originally posted by Pappy13

That is the question that I am asking.  I doubt it.

Then what makes one game "harder" than another for you? Time not being a consideration.

What you have said before, something that requires more complex thought or perhaps more physical dexterity.  More eye-hand coordination.  Better timing.  Better problem solving skills. 

Note that I said "requires".  It's not simply enough for it to be a possibility, it must be the ONLY possibility.  In other words if it takes player A twice as long to reach max level as player B, that doesn't necessarily mean that Player B has more skill or dexterity or better eye-hand coordination.  It may be that Player A just likes to take his time and enjoy himself while player B prefers to rush to the end.  Now if Player B can reach max level and Player A cannot, no matter how long it takes, than perhaps Player B is more skilled or has better dexterity or something.  Time is not the sole factor.  The ability to be able to perform the action or not is the key to difficulty.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Taliasin

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Taliasin

Originally posted by Pappy13

 

Originally posted by Taliasin

Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.

The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.

Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.

Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.

 

Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning.  Lets say it's exactly like you have just said.  Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done.  Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows,  moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.

Now, let me make one small change.  When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted.  In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item.  Which is harder?  By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer.  Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor.  Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder.  It NEVER has.  NEVER.

 

No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.

As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.

 

 

So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder.  Correct?

 

The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.

 

That is the question that I am asking.  I doubt it.  The reason it takes longer in some other games is because the designers of those games designed them to take longer which most likely just means the ratio of gaining XP to the amount of XP required to reach max level is greater than in WoW.  Nothing more.

Looks like there was a edit after my initial reply, so one more try.

Since I am NOT saying that a game is harder because it takes longer, just don't really see how that possible design has any real meaning.

So, for you, what would make one game harder than another? Again, time not being a consideration.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Taliasin

 

The question you should be asking is why it takes long to reach max level in some other games. Is it possible they are more challenging? Very likely.

 

 

 

Originally posted by Pappy13

That is the question that I am asking.  I doubt it.

 

Then what makes one game "harder" than another for you? Time not being a consideration.

 

What you have said before, something that requires more complex thought or perhaps more physical dexterity.  More eye-hand coordination.  Better timing.  Better problem solving skills. 

Note that I said "requires".  It's not simply enough for it to be a possibility, it must be the ONLY possibility.  In other words if it takes player A twice as long to reach max level as player B, that doesn't necessarily mean that Player B has more skill or dexterity or better eye-hand coordination.  It may be that Player A just likes to take his time and enjoy himself while player B prefers to rush to the end.  Now if Player B can reach max level and Player A cannot, no matter how long it takes, than perhaps Player B is more skilled or has better dexterity or something.  Time is not the sole factor.  The ability to be able to perform the action or not is the key to difficulty.

Looks like we crossed messages again.

I agree with many of the points you made here, but would like to drop the time part, since as I have said time is not a cause of difficultly/challenge.

Also, I would like to add that the minimum amount of effort/skill be used as the metric. The reason is that this is what the game requires, anything beyond that point is mainly due to the players challenging themselves and that will vary player to player. And the point is to compare games, not players.

If those changes/additions sound ok to you, then maybe we can develop a type of challenge/effort measuring device.

As a note, I have been trying to speak to the challenge of the game as a whole, not just combat vs combat or any other individual part.

Some aspects of wow are easy some aren't.

Some require a great deal of time and/or effort (e.g. farming factions to exalted rep).

Some require a reasonable degree of skill - e.g. defeating some of the harder raid bosses, getting a top 20 arena team.

I have known plenty of people who play wow who have effectively reached their limit - e.g. people who lack the skill to ever progress much beyond kara. Recently on my realm a large raiding guild disbanded because it met a boss it couldn't beat (Lady Vashj) - too many people in the guild were frustrated that the guild lacked the combined skill necessary to down this boss - even when they knew themselves they had the gear.

When substantial numbers of people fail at a task - isn't that a sign the task isn't easy?

Originally posted by Taliasin

 

I agree with many of the points you made here, but would like to drop the time part, since as I have said time is not a cause of difficultly/challenge.

Then we agree.  This is the only point I was making.  Time is not the issue and is not a good measure for determining difficulty.

Originally posted by curiousdaoc

 

Originally posted by Pappy13

 

No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.

As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.

 

 

So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder.  Correct?

 

Did you bother to read his statement? its the exact opposite, THE LONGER TIME IS BECAUSE OF THE ADDED DIFFICULTY. Pretty cut and dry.

Time is a factor of difficulty, thats a fact.

No it's not a fact.  Time CAN be a factor of difficulty, but it doesn't have to be.  In my example I showed how time was NOT a factor of difficulty thereby showing your hypothesis that time is always a factor of difficulty to be false.  A longer time does not always mean more difficult, it just means more time.  It CAN mean more difficulty, but not always.  Sometimes, like my example, more time does NOT mean more difficulty.  Therefore just because it takes longer in some games to reach max level, that is not evidence that it is more difficult.

Furthermore you have shown no evidence that the longer time in other games is due to added difficulty.  You're making that assumption based off your faulty premise that time is always a factor of difficulty when it is not.

Originally posted by Taliasin

Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.

 

The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.

 

Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.

 

Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.

However, one games come to mind quickly that had a similar crafting system that you describe and another just behind that one.  While on paper they appear to be more difficult and challenging, they turned out very different in implementation.  They turned out to be grindfests of repeating the same clicks over and over and over.  Each was designed by devs to cater to the crowd that thinks difficulty is measured by the amount of time spent doing something, regardless of the difficulty of the tasks being repeated. 

Some people love time sinks and grind fests and consider them a measurement of achievement and more power to them for being happy.  However, time spent does not equate to degree of difficulty, except for testings someones level of patience. 

Let me propose another hypothetical situation.

2 games.  Game 1 is called the marathon.  It's your typical 26 mile race from start to finish.  Game 2 is called the 100 yard nap.  It requires that a person run 100 yards, but after every 10 yards they must take an hour long nap.

If a person were to play game 2, it would take them at least 9 hours to complete the game.

Some people have been known to complete game 1 in about 4 hours I believe.

Anyone who believes that game 2 is a "harder" game than game 1, please raise your hand.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Let me propose another hypothetical situation.

2 games.  Game 1 is called the marathon.  It's your typical 26 mile race from start to finish.  Game 2 is called the 100 yard nap.  It requires that a person run 100 yards, but after every 10 yards they must take an hour long nap.

If a person were to play game 2, it would take them at least 9 hours to complete the game.

Some people have been known to complete game 1 in about 4 hours I believe.

Anyone who believes that game 2 is a "harder" game than game 1, please raise your hand.

Which is the reason for checking why one game might take longer than another.

How about two games, both 26 mile marathons. One takes 4 hours, the other takes 8 hours. Need to see why the second takes longer. After checking you discover the first race is over flat paved road the entire length, the second is over undeveloped mountains.

If anyone was arguing the point that time made the game harder, I missed it. But I did see several say that a game took longer because it was harder.

Originally posted by Taliasin

 

Which is the reason for checking why one game might take longer than another.

Exactly.

How about two games, both 26 mile marathons. One takes 4 hours, the other takes 8 hours. Need to see why the second takes longer. After checking you discover the first race is over flat paved road the entire length, the second is over undeveloped mountains.

If anyone was arguing the point that time made the game harder, I missed it.

Some did.  If you were not, then my bad.

But I did see several say that a game took