Originally posted by Daffid011

 

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I disagree, there was an obvious reason it took 3 time longer.

 

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Yes it is obvious, time and nothing else.  Bobs' friend Fred is playing another MMO right next to him.  They both play for 5 hours killing orcs, gathering resources, etc in their respective games.  Can Fred really look at Bob and say his gameplay was much harder, because TOMORROW he will have to do it all over again. 

 

Correct it was harder for bobby to achieve the same goal in the same amount of time = harder game compared to easier game.

Ask a factory assembly line worker with 15+ years experience if their job keeps getting more difficult after doing it for so long or if it just gets boring after a while.  Repeating the same task according to some in this thread must increase challenge and difficulty factor right?

 These comparisons aren't valid.  It comes down to WoW being simple to learn, a good UI, and overall easier game.  Time is involved, but things tend to take longer when it's more difficult to do.

 

Eve is a completely different game than Fantasy MMOs, which is why I keep saying fantasy MMOs.  I've only tried the trial of Eve, but when the ship started flying itself I stopped playing.  Sort of an apples and oranges comparison to be honest.  Kudos to Eve for not following the typical EQ MMO formula that just about every FANTASY mmo has done for years.

 Eve is a perfect example regardless of the genre.  It's a much harder game and doesn't completely spoonfeed you your way to endgame.

Again, you say WoW is spoonfed and other games are harder, but never really point out the WHY of your opinion.  What little you have said exists in every other MMOs almost cut/paste which is why you point isn't really valid other than generalizing everyone who plays WoW as if all 10 million people are clones incapable of playing other MMOs.  I'll just chalk you up as someone who needs to put everyone else down to make your opinion seem worthy.  Cheers.

 What's there to point out to you?  From the quests, to the crafting system, to getting into a pvp fight everything is easy in this game.  Nothing is hard.  It's learned within minutes if it even has to be learned.  No research needs to go into playing WoW, nothing.  You can pick up WoW level up to 70 within a couple weeks.  Simple and EASY.  I find other games have steeper learning curves.  The actual gameplay in most are easy.  I can agree, but WoW overall in every aspect is easier. 

For myself, I have not found any MMO that really stands out as challenging anymore.  They all pretty much play the exact same way.  I find it ridiculous for people who want to think they play harder or more skilled games just because they pour more time into playing a game. 

 

There's games that are more challenging to learn and require a little more research to learn what to do and how.  Eve, UO, many other MMOs are harder in this way.

I don't think this is going anywhere really since we have differing opinion on what's easy and what's not.  We can leave it at WoW is easy imo, and you find 0 games not challenging at all.

     WoW: logged in and followed the obvious quests

     A game before The Dark Times: logged in first time with a melon and gun. Some troppers were giving me weird looks as they passed by.

     I'll take the melon and being lost any day and twice on sunday ;-)

       "SOE we fight lest beasts we become"   - Dritzz Darkwood, Corbantis. Order 66 casualty

Comparing an economic based sandbox pvpcentric space game to a fantasy gear acquisition level based game doesn't make for a good comparison, especially when the majority of the market is flooded with the latter.  Maybe Eve is a harder game to learn, I don't know, but PvP games are "harder", because human oppopnents are smarter than computer AI... well in most cases.  I'm sure Eve has its fair share of idiots.

We both agree that most every fantasy MMO is easy and similar in nature.  I've yet to see one example of why you think WoW is easier than every other game and why you think the 12 year old mouthbreathers couldn't succeed in one of those other games.  The only thing you've really said that exists in other games that doesn't in WoW is other games take longer, which isn't an obstacle to the people playing WoW like you would have anyone believe.  It's not like WoW players have a time limit they can play a game and inflating the time needed to level or something is anyway a mountain of challenge that anyone cannot climb over.  

All the spoonfed stuff existed already in other games.  Not sure why you don't acknowledge that as well and single out WoW. 

If by real raider you mean somone who claims to have taken down all the content in the game without posting an armory than yeah sure.

Inis kargath if you want to check me out.

SWP is a very difficult instance so is naxx and the latter half of AQ.  What BT lacks in truly difficult fights it makes more than up for it in it's inventiveness and gear check.  I have gone on record many times as saying WOW has the best PVE end game content of any other game out there and if thats what you're looking for than really choosing anything else would be a shame.  With that said I think the gripes about pvp are justified, I used to play on 2200 arena teams but now a days I only do it with nubish friends of mine who are looking to gear out alts. Druids are the only really effective healer 2v2 or 3v3 and the idea that there should be outlast teams simply boggles my mind.   I am happy blizzard is intorducing arena rating check on all arena gear but personally I think S4 is to little to late and finally the lack of new battlegrounds is disappointing to say the least. 

With all of that being said I still enjoy WOW and will continue to play it until I find a truly superior pve/pvp game (meaning both componets have to be solid.) 

Mr. Vice out

Originally posted by Daffid011

Comparing an economic based sandbox pvpcentric space game to a fantasy gear acquisition level based game doesn't make for a good comparison, especially when the majority of the market is flooded with the latter.  Maybe Eve is a harder game to learn, I don't know, but PvP games are "harder", because human oppopnents are smarter than computer AI... well in most cases.  I'm sure Eve has its fair share of idiots.

 

We both agree that most every fantasy MMO is easy and similar in nature.  I've yet to see one example of why you think WoW is easier than every other game and why you think the 12 year old mouthbreathers couldn't succeed in one of those other games.  The only thing you've really said that exists in other games that doesn't in WoW is other games take longer, which isn't an obstacle to the people playing WoW like you would have anyone believe.  It's not like WoW players have a time limit they can play a game and inflating the time needed to level or something is anyway a mountain of challenge that anyone cannot climb over.  

 

Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.

 

The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.

 

Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.

 

Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.

 

All the spoonfed stuff existed already in other games.  Not sure why you don't acknowledge that as well and single out WoW. 

 

 

 

Originally posted by Taliasin

Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.

The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.

Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.

Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.

Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning.  Lets say it's exactly like you have just said.  Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done.  Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows,  moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.

Now, let me make one small change.  When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted.  In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item.  Which is harder?  By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer.  Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor.  Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder.  It NEVER has.  NEVER.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Comparing an economic based sandbox pvpcentric space game to a fantasy gear acquisition level based game doesn't make for a good comparison, especially when the majority of the market is flooded with the latter.  Maybe Eve is a harder game to learn, I don't know, but PvP games are "harder", because human oppopnents are smarter than computer AI... well in most cases.  I'm sure Eve has its fair share of idiots.

 I didn't know what I could and couldn't compare it to since there weren't any real guidelines.  IMO WoW is still easier then most.  Eve is most definitely harder to learn.

We both agree that most every fantasy MMO is easy and similar in nature.  I've yet to see one example of why you think WoW is easier than every other game and why you think the 12 year old mouthbreathers couldn't succeed in one of those other games.  The only thing you've really said that exists in other games that doesn't in WoW is other games take longer, which isn't an obstacle to the people playing WoW like you would have anyone believe.  It's not like WoW players have a time limit they can play a game and inflating the time needed to level or something is anyway a mountain of challenge that anyone cannot climb over.  

 I think it's more that WoW was designed for easymode spoonfed play.  Other games take more of a learning curve to picking it up, but ya after awhile in the game your second time through will be quicker.  I agree mostly, it's just I think WoW made every aspect a bit easier to learn and go through.

All the spoonfed stuff existed already in other games.  Not sure why you don't acknowledge that as well and single out WoW. 

 

 WoW took spoonfeeding to new heights

 

Originally posted by Pappy13

Originally posted by Taliasin

Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.

The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.

Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.

Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.

Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning.  Lets say it's exactly like you have just said.  Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done.  Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows,  moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.

Now, let me make one small change.  When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted.  In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item.  Which is harder?  By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer.  Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor.  Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder.  It NEVER has.  NEVER.

No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.

As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.

Originally posted by Taliasin

Originally posted by Pappy13

 

Originally posted by Taliasin

Let us say that there are two games out there that are the same in all respects save one. Crafting. In one game you run out, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station and click a button. You now have your finished, crafted item. Pretty simple, quick, and dare I say, easy.

The second game game you run our, click an icon and you have your base material, you run to town and buy another item, then run to the crafting station. But here you have to pump the bellows to get the fire to the right temp to smelt the iron, and you have to watch the iron to figure out when to add the coal dust to make steel to make your ingot. Then once you have your ingot, you have to pump the bellow to heat the ingot to soften it in order to hammer it into a blade. But you have to keep an eye on the blade else it becomes to cold and your blade is ruined.

Obviously the second game has a more challenging crafting system. It requires more involment from the player, more effort, and dare I say it, takes more time. But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around.

Since the two games are equal in all other respects, I would say the second game would be the "harder" of the two. Not that either is hard in any absolute sense.

 

Ok, let's follow your line of reasoning.  Lets say it's exactly like you have just said.  Game 1 you gather the items, push the button and you're done.  Game 2 you have to gather the items, pump the bellows,  moniter the temperature, swing the hammer etc.

Now, let me make one small change.  When you push the button in game 1 you have to stand for 5 minutes while the item is crafted.  In game 2, doing all those things takes about a minute to actually craft the item.  Which is harder?  By your definition game 1 is harder because it took longer.  Now do you see why time itself is NOT the determining factor.  Simply taking longer DOES NOT mean harder.  It NEVER has.  NEVER.

 

No, it is harder because of the "It requires more involment from the player, more effort," not the time involved. As I stated before, more complex things tend to take longer. I never said it was harder because of taking longer.

As I said above "But the longer time is because of the added difficulty, not the other way around." Difficulty is not a factor of time, time tends to be a factor of difficulty, so pressing a button and waiting 5 minutes adds nothing to the situation I described because it does nothing to the challenge presented.

 

 

So then you agree that just because it takes longer in other games to reach max level that they are not necessarily harder.  Correct?

Wow is SO easy that...

Only 2 X 25 persons managed to down the last boss in the Sunwell raid (updated yesterday)

out of a possible 10.700.000 accounts. Let's say a few million raiders.

That's how many percentage ???

Gratz to the one EU and US team that did it.

But Wow is so easy... yeah (just struggling every week with Zul Aman, Gruul and Maghteridon) and our guild didn't even begin on the last 4 raids.

The only guys saying that Wow is easy are those who played the easy way (leveling to 70 without ever seeing anything). No problem you play Wow the way you like it, just don't think you played Wow by leveling.