Originally posted by ilikepuddy

 well i must say its everything my friend people thing wow is easy to get easy to play and easy to learn. i personally think its a very fun game  and it is easy to learn and easy to lvl since they dont make u lose xp when you die.....thank god lol but some people think its full of imature little brats well it is i am personally 14 kinda young but i have a 22 year old bro and a 30 year old bro that love the game like me so people it may be full of brats and it may be easy buts its still a very very fun game

Don't let anyone tell you that since you're 14 you are immature.  Maturity has absolutely NOTHING to do with age.  My 19 year old son has been playing video games since he was 5 years old and he's more mature than a lot of the folks I meet on these forums that are 40 or 50.  Maturity is a lot of things, but mostly it has to do with tolerance.  It's being able to have an opinion on something and being able to express it without resorting to insults to those who don't agree with you.  It's also about being able to see the difference between an opinion and a fact.  So welcome Puddy to the forums.  Based on your first post, you won't have any problems here.

First, let us define hard.

One can define it as something difficult to endure.

I would say most MMOGs are pretty easy to learn, often harder to master. I don't think that is exactly what people mean when they say WoW is easy though.

It has been established from earlier posters: levelling in WoW is easy. Some have tried to debunk it by saying a steeper levelling curve does not provide difficulty. I will be blunt. You are wrong.

Since it has been mentioned many times, FFXI is quite a bit more difficult to level than WoW. It absolutely requires a group and more skill to level. Yes, it requires more skill. The party has to know its roll and how to operate. I have seen players in WoW that are not effective at endgame because they did not have to learn there class during the levelling process.

Furthermore, I would say that it is hard to endure a steeper levelling curve than it is to endure a quick one. If you look at AO or AC (from their early days at least), in the time it takes me to level from 1-70 on WoW, I would probably only be somewhere in the 50-80 range in the other games (at least AC, I didn't play AO much). AC could literally take months of quite a bit of playing to get even remotely high in level. There are not just 70 levels though, there were 126 (It is actually higher now). This is very difficult to attain. If I recall, a great deal of the xp that needs to be gained is after level 100-110.

You are deluding yourself if you think this is just as easy. I am not talking about the enemies you had to face to get to 70. We are not talking about combat at all. Likewise, we are not talking about the method required (Questing vs. grinding). We are talking about the levelling curve, which is higher in all three of the games named.

This is only one aspect. Currency in FFXI is also very difficult. Armor is not easily acquired like in WoW. This creates a situation difficult to endure.

Of course, there is also the death penalty. Again, we are not talking about the battle that took place that caused you to die. That might be just as difficult as it is in other games. WoW's DP is easy to endure. It is an inconvenient walk back to your corpse coupled with diminishing armor and a small fine of easy-to-earn money.

In AC, you not only had to run back to your body, you had to do it while alive (and thus capable of dying again). You always get vitae, which reduces stats, and you lose items and money on your corpse. This is very hard to endure. You may spend a night just trying to retrieve it. This is challenging, especially considering the consequences if you do not (loss of items and money). In addition, AC loot is random. A great piece is not gauranteed. Unlike WoW, grinding the same mob may not get you that epic you have been waiting for. Instead, in AC, it drops and you cherish the mere fact that you were lucky enough to get an item so great (and that just about no one else has), and thus you wish to hold onto it at the cost of almost anything.

This also makes PvP harder, as people can loot your corpse. Go play on the Darktide server and tell me it is just as easy as WoW's PvP. Keep in mind, WoW's PvP is just a grind. You lose nothing but you eventually can gain everything. This is true even in arena, but at least arena factors in player's skill for success. It is not, of course, required. You can get the gear either way, it is just slow if you are less skilled.

Really, I think the main problem with WoW, and what makes it so easy, is the minimal consequences. You can say that just makes it longer and doesn't help the casual at all. I believe that is the point of being harder though. Some of you seem to be ignoring the concept of difficulty and seem to define it as the difficulty of a fight. It is not just limited to battle...

Taking longer to level doesn't make a game more "difficult".

Taking longer to get an item doesn't make the gameplay more challenging.

Requiring a group to level doesn't make a the game mechanics any more engaging than a game the offers both group and solo options to level.

All those things are just measures of time to reach a certain point in a game and none of which is more difficult than the next.  I've played many MMOs and the group mechanics are always similar enough that it can be picked up in half an hour or so if you have any MMO experience.  If someone solos to level cap and never groups of course they won't have any experience to draw on and of course will have problems adjusting.  However that is not something that is unique to WoW.  I've played many games where that exact thing happens all the time.  For example halfing druids in everquest were famous for being idiots in a dungeon because most of them spent 45 levels kiting dwarves around in butcherblock or some other zone.

I can't for the life of me think of a single sword and elf game out that is more difficult than the next.  They all use the same basic formula of tank, heal and dps.  Trying to make one game more elite than another because it takes longer to accomplish something based solely on the amount of time required isn't a solid statement.  The same goes for how harsh punishments are for failures.  Sure it might make it more tedious to lose at something, but it does not make the encounter that lead up to defeat one single bit more challenging.  There is no difference in that respect between no death penalty and losing all your items since it is all after the fact of the events that lead up to the death.  All that it affects is how much set back a person prefers in their MMO of choice when they do lose to an encounter.  Neither is more difficult than the next except the amount of time needed to recover. 

Forcing people to group to gain levels doesn't make a game hard, it just restricts playstyle options.

Requiring someone to take 10 years to reach max level doesn't make all those encounters along the way any more difficult in the slightest.  It just takes more of them.

I will agree that there are some classes in some games that can trivialize any challenge the game has to offer.  An example would be fire/fire tankers the first few months of COH or something similar.  All games have their balance issues though.

You have essentially proved my point.

You reduce difficulties to merely combat alone. You, like many others here, do not seem to understand what "hard" means. It is a difficult task. Time and effort are both factors of this.

It is a far more difficult task to reach the level cap in certain other games. It is longer and requires more effort. That makes it harder.

A death penalty provides a consequent, making the task or situation more difficult than it previously was.

Do not twist the meaning to how hard the battle was for that is not the only element to game difficulty.

If we simply talk about the enemies that we face, WoW loses here too. I have to face something four levels higher than me in order to challenge my character. In FFXI, I very well may die against something of equal caliber. Respectively to level, that would make FFXI harder in general combat. Of course, you are required to group to level, that does not take away the fact that the battles are in fact harder.

WoW is not the worst offender in that respect. Returning to Asheron's Call, I can take enemies over 30 levels higher than me if I am properly buffed. Respectively to level, that would make AC enemies far weaker than FFXI.

Though, I believe the game is easy, I also don't participate in some of the content. I would say raiding may be quite hard in WoW. Each component has to be taken individually because it varies between games. I would not say WoW as a whole is easy, just many aspects of it are easy.

Time is not a measurement of difficulty. 

Is it more difficult to kill an orc 10 times than it is to kill it 20?  No, each encounter is the same, just repeated.  Requiring 50, 100 or 2093598235 doesn't make the base encounter one single bit more challenging. 

The same applies to death penalties.  Losing no XP vs losing 50 levels doesn't make the gameplay more difficult.  It might add a greater sense of danger, but that has zero effect on the actual play of winning or losing.  Everyone has their thresh hold of what they will tolerate as far as a penalty for losing, but that doesn't make one game more difficult over another.  Death penalties all boil down to how much time you must reinvest to recoup a loss.  That does not factor into difficulty, just tolerance. 

Long story short, playing a game that requires more time doesn't make the game harder.  Harder to put up with maybe, but not a greater challenge.  Time spent does not represent ability needed. 

Neither is level of the creature you fight.  All encounters boil down to how a chance to win, regardless of the level number assigned to a NPC.  Gauging simply by the number listed after a mobs name is falling prey to a false sense of danger.  All games have a curve of success and then the devs assign random numbers to that curve which makes up the mobs levels.  Who cares if you are challenged by something that is 5 levels above you or 2 below.  It is the quality of the encounter that matters, not some arbitrary numbering system.  All games have their sweetspot of where characters have favorable chance of success vs an opponent of a specific level, be it equal level or +/- a number of levels.   Judging one game vs another by those levels is meaningless.

To say WoW "loses" because of this is just plain dumb.  If tomorrow blizzard changed every single NPC in the game to display as 10 levels higher than they are now and kept the game mechanics the exact same, would that somehow magically make it harder than the games you list?  See what I mean.

Originally posted by Daffid011

Time is not a measurement of difficulty. 

Time is a factor of difficulty though.

Is it more difficult to kill an orc 10 times than it is to kill it 20?  No, each encounter is the same, just repeated.  Requiring 50, 100 or 2093598235 doesn't make the base encounter one single bit more challenging. 

Yet again, you reduce the argument down to encounters. As far as I can tell, that is not the focus of this topic. It is not asking how each individual encounter is challenging in respect to other games. It is asking what, overall, makes this game easier. Therefore, you point is irrelevant, for, as I have said thrice now, I am not talking about encounters, I am talking about the level curve of the game. The mobs and fights in this respect have no significance. They are merely a means to an end.

The same applies to death penalties.  Losing no XP vs losing 50 levels doesn't make the gameplay more difficult.  It might add a greater sense of danger, but that has zero effect on the actual play of winning or losing.  Everyone has their thresh hold of what they will tolerate as far as a penalty for losing, but that doesn't make one game more difficult over another.  Death penalties all boil down to how much time you must reinvest to recoup a loss.  That does not factor into difficulty, just tolerance. 

 XP loss interrupts  the desired  goal, making it more difficult to attain. If it makes it more difficult to attain, I would say it adds difficulty, no?

Whether or not you will admit it, loss of gear does make it more difficult. If you lose your best breastplate, for example, you will find things have grown significantly more difficult. I don't see how you can deny that, unless, of course, you ignore it all together. In WoW, you lose nothing and if your item breaks it is extremely easy to repair it. 

Long story short, playing a game that requires more time doesn't make the game harder.  Harder to put up with maybe, but not a greater challenge.  Time spent does not represent ability needed. 

 Difficulty is not an equation of skill. Skill, like time, is a factor, but it is not the sole factor. As I have said, difficulty is something tough to endure. Spending time building one's character tends to be difficult to endure.

You do this even in WoW, it is just over gear, not level.

Neither is level of the creature you fight.  All encounters boil down to how a chance to win, regardless of the level number assigned to a NPC.  Gauging simply by the number listed after a mobs name is falling prey to a false sense of danger.  All games have a curve of success and then the devs assign random numbers to that curve which makes up the mobs levels.  Who cares if you are challenged by something that is 5 levels above you or 2 below.  It is the quality of the encounter that matters, not some arbitrary numbering system.  All games have their sweetspot of where characters have favorable chance of success vs an opponent of a specific level, be it equal level or +/- a number of levels.   Judging one game vs another by those levels is meaningless.

The problem is, the chance of success in WoW tends to be a lot higher than other games I have played. One has to go over the top to challenge themselves. It has its share of losses, but it is not as frequent.

To say WoW "loses" because of this is just plain dumb.  If tomorrow blizzard changed every single NPC in the game to display as 10 levels higher than they are now and kept the game mechanics the exact same, would that somehow magically make it harder than the games you list?  See what I mean.

 That is just silly. If they changed all the NPCs to display 10 levels higher than they actually are, then in order to receive a challenge I would have to fight enemies at least 10 levels higher, in effect making it easier =P

Now if they changed their power to be 10 levels higher (but it still displayed the same level), that is another story. I would say yes, it would be vastly more difficult.

You really aren't modifying your argument. You have yet to explain your definition of difficulty. It seems that your version of it depends entirely on encounters and how hard it was to dispatch an enemy. That is only one aspect, and I agree that WoW can have its fair share of tough mobs (never said otherwise). Unfortunately, my definition is not as narrow-minded. I consider separate categories of difficulty which factors in more than the quality of an encounter. Your take on it is highly limited.

All MMOs are just a series of encounters that combine to make an overall experience.  Ignoring that just glosses over the reality of how they are played.  If two encounters are relatively the same challenge in two different games then doing one 10 times doesn't make it any more difficult than a game the rewards just as much for 5.

You are confusing difficulty with repetition/time sinks.  Lets for example just get rid of levels all together.  Each game is just going out to hack and slash.  Now, does it matter how many times you repeat the same activity over and over in either game?  Is game A any more difficult because you spend 5 more hours doing the same thing?  No.  Does it take more skill or is it harder to kill 10 orcs than it does to kill 4? 

Your confusion comes because you are counting how many times it takes to repeat an encounter between two units of measurement and then assuming it is more challanging (aka difficult) because of the extra cycles.

I don't know how else to explain it to you, but time spent does not make something a challenge. Spending more time doing the same things doesn't require one more ounce of reaction time, quick thinking or skill.  It just requires more time.  Time does not equate to difficulty in any way other than tedium.  Everyone has their threshold of what they consider to little or to much time to accomplish tasks and much of this thread is confusing that with difficulty. 

brilliant post Daffid, I completely agree

You still aren't looking beyond the encounters. You are right, it is repetitive. The encounters are not in any way more challenging, neither is the number of times you have to engage into them. This is not the point I am trying to get across.

Your problem is you are not looking at the effort involved to attain something. It takes more patience, time, and effort to make a level in another game. You have yet to debunk this, instead, you presume that difficulty only comes from the immediate challenge.

If you removed levels, as you suggest, then that would not be a characteristic to evaluate the difficulty. You would obviously have to look at something else. So, it is irrelevant because it is not present.

Since the games I have noted do in fact have levels, they can be evaluated on a scale of difficulty. I will repeat it: the encounters tend not to be any more or less difficult (it does vary from game to game though). The difficulty relies entirely on the amount of effort spent on the goal. The amount of effort comes from various things, especially time. Since, as we have already established, the encounters are repetitive, the difficulty of the mobs doesn't hold as much weight.

You refuse to comprehend the meaning of "hard". Time and time again you devalue it to simply individual encounters. This is simply not how it works. 

I'll try again.  It is NOT difficult to sit in a chair and repeat similar tasks over and over again.  There is nothing harder about it no matter how long the duration is.   Anyone can spend large quantities of time doing the same thing which makes it by nature not difficult.  Many people choose not to do those types of things, not because they are to hard, but because they become tedious.

Comparing game A vs game B and saying game B is "hard" because it takes nothing more than extra time doing the same activities all of which offer about the same level of difficulty doesn't make game B harder.   That is by the very definition tedious, not challenging. 

If we take what you call hard and apply it to a level 1 character then requiring them to kill 5 billion rats to gain level 2 then that would be that hardest most challenging game ever made.  Apply the same to crafting, combat, questing, etc.  It doesn't matter what aspect you pick the end result is the same.  It is the core game designs that make up difficulty and challenge, not arbitrary time measurements.

Really I do understand what people are trying to convey when they say it is easier to level in one game or harder to level in another.   Everyone has their thresh hold of what they consider appropriate amounts of time to gain levels or whatever. 

Edit:  What do you think hard means?  Why do you think MMOs are not just a series of smaller encounters that make up the whole?  

I don't think you are being honest to yourself by ignoring the bulk of what gameplay is made up off  and instead glossing over everything done to focus on the bottom line of just how long something took to complete as being the important factor.