The way this game is getting away with all the bad decisions from Blizzard and holding a big and solid sub base is simply staggering and unbelievable. This is really a case study, not only in gaming industry, but in human behaviour also.

If they ever add 3 faction world pvp, unlikely but not impossible, i can honestly say that it will make no difference at all, because one way or the other WoW will live on....it just makes me  to Blizzard.

 

Why?  Isn't WoW the most current lore, timeline wise?  I thought this was the continuation of the story and that no lore has actually been written that goes beyond the events of WoW.

In that regard you don't rewrite anything, you ADD to the lore.  They could make it work in whatever fashion they wanted.

In my opinion it would be Alliance, Horde, Forsaken.  Cataclysm, what little I played, seemd to poin to some level of tension between the horde and forsaken.  I got the impression that the horde were starting to look see the forsaken as not being any better then arthas and his undead army.  Aren't the forsaken now making new forsaken on their own, no longer needing to free forsaken, they can raise the dead into their ranks now.  Am I remember what I played through incorrectly here? 

Forsaken is already a faction unto itself anyways, only working with the horde out of mutual need, not respect or like.  Once the forsaken have the numbers, they no longer need the horde, something else I thought was a part of the forsaken quest line in cat.

They could even introduce some new undead races for you to play.  Like an undead orc, or troll, to fill in the forsaken factions race selection.  Seriously, who wouldn't want to play a zombie tauren?

 

Edit, I was supposed to be quoting the guy that stated that blizzard would have to rewrite all the lore to add a third faction.

Originally posted by Goreson

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by joocheese

It appears that 3 faction world pvp is the new trend in mmos. My question is not if 3 faction world pvp will come to WOW but when. And when it comes, how will it look like?

If you were chosen as the manager to oversee the development of 3 faction world pvp in WOW how would you impliment it and what would it look like?

It's not really a new trend, DAOC started a 3 faction pvp mmo years ago. It's just taken companies 10 years to get the idea it's a nice balance for pvp.

Tayah is perfectly right - Hail to our Lord and Master DAoC! - except that other MOs have tried to go with more than 2 factions.

Aika for example has 5 nations that all have their own personality and relate differently to each other.

Just too bad that a) pretty much nobody really cared enough about these "factions" and b) you didn't actually have to choose one...

The secret is not just to have 3 factions, but to actually balance them against each other (no "we are neutral" backdoor) and, and this is where GW2's WvWvW system will fail in the mid/long run, make you not just care about your own faction but also to make you hate the other 2. 

In DAoC an Alb could say "I see the stinking hippie are on the march again, time to kick some elven arse!" or "Shit, here come the rug boys with their hammers... man, will those morons ever learn to just stay home and lick their frosticles?"

But in GW2...? "Hey, look, we are fighting the reds and the blues again (who other than having a different colour tag look just like us)" - "No, these are not the reds you are looking for, it was other reds you were fighting 3 weeks ago..."

*burp*

Now, I never played WoW - yes, I'm one of the lucky few - but maybe Blizz could launch an alien attack on WoW? Maybe WoW - Starcraft Edition? ;-)

 

You do realize that in gw2 the color coding is just to keep things simple in the heat of battle. Click on "N" and you can immediately see who you are fighting. Winning servers well battle other winning servers as the Weeks go by, losing severs will fight other losing servers, etc, etc. a the wvw tournament progresses, there is going to be some real nasty rivalries between the servers. Due to the gw2 wvw format, the battles will be more balanced, thus increasing the rivalry; unlike unbalanced factions (like in wow). If anything I believe wvw will be better in gw2

I could easily see the Forsaken move away from the Horde. You would need more than one race though to make 3 faction pvp work.

As far as the leveling goes how hard is it to make a quest hub and just clone the quests from the other 2 factions. They do it now between the Horde and alliance.

I really don't see Blizzard doing 3 faction pvp but I guess anything is possible and if they had some kind of proof they could stop the bleeding of subs they may well try it.

The tauren and trolls have become increasingly mistrusting of the antics of Hellscream. Baine approaches the night elves about an alliance between trolls, elves, worgen and tauren, in an effort to stop the bloody war between the horde and the alliance that constantly trashes their beloved world. They call themselves the Protectorate of Azeroth, and vow to guard the way of the Earthmother.

 

The Alliance goes on with gnomes, dwarves, men, and Draenei, and the Horde with orcs, goblins, blood elves, and the forsaken.

 

I don't know much about wow lore, but that could probably work, and would offer up some pretty disparate factions.

Originally posted by joocheese

 

You do realize that in gw2 the color coding is just to keep things simple in the heat of battle. Click on "N" and you can immediately see who you are fighting. Winning servers well battle other winning servers as the Weeks go by, losing severs will fight other losing servers, etc, etc. a the wvw tournament progresses, there is going to be some real nasty rivalries between the servers. Due to the gw2 wvw format, the battles will be more balanced, thus increasing the rivalry; unlike unbalanced factions (like in wow). If anything I believe wvw will be better in gw2

Sorry, I don't agree - and yes, we could have a long debate about this but, well, fact is that aside from the BWE there really is very little data on the longrun effect of WvWvW.

So, it's all speculation on both your end and mine.

What I will say though are certain basics:

In DAoC the rivalry was intimate: if you wanted to go and smack some goodie Albs you got a group together and went. Same for any other RvR combination. 

Only limitation: that particular Alb/Hip/Mid player that you wanted to give a shiner, he may at this time not be online...

In GW2 everything is (apparently) based on a tournament and rotation system. 

So, depending on duration of each rotation and the number of servers, the calculation of who is the winner, who came second, who came last (to avaid potentially matching up to losers who were just at each others throat, etc. it could be months, maybe even years before a server feud can be "re-kindled".

Unless GW2 were to include "choice matches" but I'd be very careful in considering how that then may work with a persistant tournamennt setup...

You are bringing up the concept of balanced... I will call this 2 things a) bland and b) an illusion. 

a) bland - because there really is nothing that sets the enemy apart from your own "realm". AN couldn't even be bothered to give your enemy some sort of fake faction e.g. the enemy red Norn - supposedly - being Sons of Svanir. 

No, AN just makes then red Norn or blue Norn or green Norn...

tell me, when was the last time you played a warfare game (RTS, large scale FPS, etc) where the enemies weren't somebody, where they were the same just a different colour?

Probably when you and somebody else chose the same army... but this isn't even supposed to be a RTS, this is supposed to be a RPG! So, yeah, a random skirmish, that could be with anybody, I don't care, 20 - 30 min headbanging and then it's over... but for a real war? Don't even consider waking me or my character if all you can give me is "well, they look like us... but they are green!"

b) illusion - if you have experience with MMORPGs you know that usually the game designers are constantly at work re-balancing the classes. Which is perfectly natural because some gamer may have come up with an innovative new way of using his, say, Guardian and suddenly he becomes OP... shortly by followed by many Guardian players adapting that style of play because would you rather follow a strategy where you may win but that is more comfortable to you, or a strategy that will pretty much guarantee your win... until some player of one of the other classes figures out a way how to cut the guardian back.

By that time the OP shouting has made AN nerf the Guardian... who now suddenly is the weakest class on the field. This will be in noway different than the nerfing in e.g. SWTOR because somebody always feels that another class is OP.

And I think you will have to agree that not all classes are equal in GW2 when matched against each other.

So, pretty much this "balance" becomes a simply numbers game:

red fields 15 Necros, 11 warriors, 14 Rangers, 15 Elements, 8 Guardians, 6 Mesmer, 4 Engineers, 11 Thieves.

Experience dictates that 1 Necro can be taken down by 1 Guardian, 1 Warrior, 2 Mesmers, 1 Thief, etc. (this is obviously completely random in setup, but there will be people who  will try to determine these numbers. And they will try to coach their team how to win: by fielding the right numbers yourself!

Unless you are talking really exactly the same numbers on opposing sides and also gamers of equal skill even a siimple 2 faction match may easily become unbalanced. Worse still: you have 3 factions fighting, potentially wildcards in all factions who give a fuck about what the numbersmen say and BOOOM! you have the typical chaos that is the norm in modern warfare... unless you'd rather work on a gentlemen's level and have clear cut lines marching against each other? 

You still sticking with "perfectly balanced factions" in GW2? 

And what about all those "losers" who logged out after losing the fight for Keep A but now red has set their eyes on Keep B? 

Have fun crunching the numbers... but too bad that there maybe a bad player in this class or that? 

I'd rather go at the whole thing with an open mind and see what happens...

Originally posted by Jostle

The tauren and trolls have become increasingly mistrusting of the antics of Hellscream. Baine approaches the night elves about an alliance between trolls, elves, worgen and tauren, in an effort to stop the bloody war between the horde and the alliance that constantly trashes their beloved world. They call themselves the Protectorate of Azeroth, and vow to guard the way of the Earthmother.

 

The Alliance goes on with gnomes, dwarves, men, and Draenei, and the Horde with orcs, goblins, blood elves, and the forsaken.

 

I don't know much about wow lore, but that could probably work, and would offer up some pretty disparate factions.

IMO that would only work if the 3rd faction was a one time opt in.  In a game as old and established as WoW, you seriously risk alienating  a large part of your playerbase by removing them from the faction that they've grown attached to over years of raising their characters, without giving them the option to keep their loyalties in place.

Perhaps a rebel alliance that allows any race from horde or alliance with a one time betrayal system could work.  But I doubt any mainstream developer would go to such radical lengths to force established players into a faction they may not want to be a part of. 

MMORPG players aren't particularly fond of being forced to do things against their wishes (then again, who is?)

how is 3 faction pvp a new trend if it has been around since 2001?

Originally posted by OberanMiM

Originally posted by Tayah

Originally posted by joocheese

It appears that 3 faction world pvp is the new trend in mmos. My question is not if 3 faction world pvp will come to WOW but when. And when it comes, how will it look like?

If you were chosen as the manager to oversee the development of 3 faction world pvp in WOW how would you impliment it and what would it look like?

It's not really a new trend, DAOC started a 3 faction pvp mmo years ago. It's just taken companies 10 years to get the idea it's a nice balance for pvp.

 

It was actually Anarchy Online that started the 3 faction pvp trend(it released about 6 months before DAOC). In my mind it was superior in the fact that you could talk with group with the other factions (note there was a neutral faction), and even defect. It even had FFA areas where there was no "Suppression Gas"  and in those areas even pvp between the same faction was allowed.

no AO had 2 factions and neutrals, not the same thing.  Also it didnt have pvp at launch, and added it later.  Tower wars is very different to RVR/

Originally posted by Istavaan

how is 3 faction pvp a new trend if it has been around since 2001?

Because it hasn't been a "trend" since 2001.

Originally posted by Merdur

If blizzard tried adding a third faction they would have to rewrite there whole games history, they can't do it so they won't. They'll most likely wait for Titan to try this and knowing the abysmal way blizzard hacks up pvp they will fail.

 

GL with a company that hasn't gotten anything right since 2004.

Just saying, they're still the kings of the MMO industry, and possibly other industry's as well.  So obviously they have gotten much right since 2004.

Originally posted by L0C0Man

I doubt they'll do 3 factions PvP. It would work for regular battlegrounds, but would cause havok in the full world and in the leveling.

Everything in WoW is laid in twos. For every questing area that leans heavily to one side in the vanilla world, there's another that leans to the other side in the same level range, and in cases where the questing is done by both sides in the same area, each one has their own towns and outposts, plus sometimes a neutral one.

Making WoW a 3 factions game would mean redesigning the whole world to create new areas for the third faction in the level ranges where areas are not shared, and new towns/outposts equivalent to the ones that already exist (along with everyhing that implies, for quests line, vendors, auction houses and so on). The location of main cities can be problematic since they're seem to be linked in twos (note that my knowledge of WoW is up to WotLK) as in SW - IF (tram), TB - OG (these are the ones "less" connected but still close to each other), UC - Silvermoon (teleport) and Darnassus - Exodar (boats to both share the same pier), and main city in WotLK is also divided in alliance-horde. So, basically, reorganizing the races on 3 factions (not hard, I always felt that undead - blood elves and probably worgen now could form their own faction) would be easy... remaking the world for the 3 factions to work (not just end game but whole leveling process), not so easy.

If anything, maybe their next MMO would be 3 factions.. WoW, very much doubt it.

Now, what they could do if they wanted to, is a 3 way battleground, maybe when you join you're assigned to one of 3 sides along with people from both factions.. :)

The levelling problem is quickly solved by adding new continent that cater to the third faction. It is quite the work, yes, but less than re-re-tooling the all world again.

So like Pandaria could have been the neutral faction home, level 1-90 zones and home to some neutral races. Either make specific neutral races or permits existing races to be also neutral as many WoW races have spinoff and groups that are not part of Horde or Alliance. (Grimtotem taurens, Goblins, different troll tribes than dark spears, non-gilnean worgens, non-Stormwind humans etc... why would this disparate group band together, however, is another story).

Alternatively, they could reshuffle existing content in three factions. It would not be ideal, but they might succeed. Outlands and Northrend already have less bi-polar content with many regions having common quest hubs.

But yeah... while this would seriously rock, I am doubtful Blizzard would see a significant gain for what is a great deal of work.

 

Three factions could be implemented in the same way Rift plans to do it, basically 3-way battlegrounds. You'd still have the Horde/Alliance factions, but the 3 new factions within the new battlegrounds would represent different causes/reasons/points of view for why they are fighting the battle. Then the player could choose which of these 3 they want to fight for.

Ofcourse this means you'd have Orcs & Humans fighting on the same team vs other orcs/humans/nelfs/etc... but then alot of wow's lore already had the Alliance and Horde working together for the greater good at times.

Overlooking the lore, it would mean you'd finally get 3-way battles, players could "choose" a side they wanted to represent and then these different factions could have a bunch of new items/gear etc to grind for & eventually with time, they would gain their own credibility in the lore the longer they were around.

It could work for sure. Just needs the will to do it.

Wow servers grind to halt when a new raid opens and everyone rushes over to take a look. Wows engine can't cope with large scale pvp. Also they've micromanaged pvp for 1vs1 "balance" which is counter productive to good large scale pvp.

Originally posted by ShakyMo

 

no AO had 2 factions and neutrals, not the same thing.  Also it didnt have pvp at launch, and added it later.  Tower wars is very different to RVR/

Vov , Neutral is only true faction in AO , when you choose Omlets / Clams you cant swap back to neutral anymore ,ever ,but you can swap as Omlet  / Clam till lvl 200.

 

 

Exactly copy what rift is doing, gw2 or the secret world.

Or have a permanent fucking massive huge zone like one or 2 daoc frontiers you port to thats cross server always on going. And like rift you would have to join one of 3 factions.

My off the cuff idea is how aboutz blizzard spends some of its banked capital on a completely new faction and blow us all out the water.  Though we all know they are not pioneers really they are just copy cats of what works.

 

Factions are just fail imho, 3 factions, 4 factions, 10 factions, it doesnt matter, factions are a lazy and artificial way of creating a conflict where it might not exist, it also limits player freedom, factionless MMOs with the possibility for factions to be created by the players themselves is where its at, it creates intricate politics and its just generally a lot more fun, than being put in a camp where you have no choice but follow the carrot on the stick.

FFA PvP which is what a factionless system would be has proven itself to be fail.

Originally posted by Ausare

FFA PvP which is what a factionless system would be has proven itself to be fail.

No that is not what it FFA PvP means at all, not in context of MMOs, this term is associated with attacking anyone without consequence, which is exactly what happens in even most faction based games like WoW, where you can just attack the other faction on a pvp server, if in WoW I move to a contested area which the other faction uses to level then its FFA PVP I can attack the other faction without any consequence, by the same definition factionless would be no different.

 

Factionless pvp with a chaotic system works a charm and is without a doubt the best system out there, where you can choose to attack someone else, but there is no incentive to attack unless the pros outweight the cons ( i.e. you are at war ), 2 or 3 faction PVP is meaningless, you attack the other faction because the designers told you to attack them, and when you hover over their name they are "red" ( i.e. good to attack ), its pointless and adds nothing.

With persistant objectives within factionless system it means people will band together politically, or just be neutral, and they will actually fight for something.

 

Lineage 2 is a great example of an MMO with one of the best PVP systems out there, lacked work on everything else, but people created their won alliances, wars, politics and people switching sides at the last minute made it all much more fun, the game didnt have to tell you who to attack or who to be friends with, it also meant that your reputation was very important, you didnt want to be known as a douche basically or if you did you better have the power to back it up. But it didnt mean that everyone was just killing everyone constantly, if you had no part in big politics and were just playing the game without interfering with it then no one would come around and just kill you for no reason, you were assumed neutral until your actions showed otherwise.

 

Originally posted by joocheese

It appears that 3 faction world pvp is the new trend in mmos. My question is not if 3 faction world pvp will come to WOW but when. And when it comes, how will it look like?

If you were chosen as the manager to oversee the development of 3 faction world pvp in WOW how would you impliment it and what would it look like?

They would have to do what Trion is doing in Rift.

3 NPC factions, you pick which one you join up with, specific to a particular zone (perhaps like a WG/TB) and they'd have to enable cross-horde/alliance communication specifically within your chosen faction.

It'd work, and MoP would have been a great time to introduce it, but instead they went with a 2 faction system with the Pandaran to match up with Horde/Alliance.