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Originally posted by trash656
Good lord I hope BW don't do this in TOR with thier talent tree's

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Whats the point of keeping around a bunch of useless or necessary talents? To fill out some talent tree to give people an illusion of choice?

Blizzard made the necessary talents baseline and got rid of the useless talents. The Pandaria "talents" look like ACTUAL choices and I would rather 5 actual choices than 100 points of cookie cutter crap.

Talent trees in their current implementation(current WoW, TOR, Rift, etc) are not fun nor engaging. If removing them is "dumbing down" then dumb it up.

They didnt get rid of the good talents in your tree. They gave them to u as skills instead of getting them in the talent tree. So things like stormstrike which was a 40 level talent now u just train from a trainer

They tried to get rid of cookie cutter builds but found that u cant get away from the math geeks who always find that 1 pct better spec. 

Truth is they would be better off having a system where u have to choose 3 active abilities and get rid of al passives, and thats what they are doing i think

Dont get me wrong i didnt mind the origional trees , the problem was every time theyd nerf something a new flavor of the month spec took over that u had to have to raid or pvp, 

People bemoan the loss of hybrid builds but truth is hybrid builds never got taken to raids or top tier pvp, So u didnt lose anything 

Im not defending there decision just tellign u why they did it. Tor trees arent any better, but any system based on talent trees have inherant flaws in them

Better to have a skill based system where the more u use a skill the better it works, This from a themepark game fan, Truth is most talent trees are bloated messes that give rise the perfect spec for raiding or pvp

U cant get away from it as long as u have huge talent trees, Maybe what theya re trying in mop will work maybe not but they had to do something as they more they added levels the more convoluted the trees became and the harder to balance them.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

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Originally posted by trash656
Good lord I hope BW don't do this in TOR with thier talent tree's

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Why? The talent trees in TOR are just as boring and static.

Whats the point of keeping around a bunch of useless or necessary talents? To fill out some talent tree to give people an illusion of choice?

Blizzard made the necessary talents baseline and got rid of the useless talents. The Pandaria "talents" look like ACTUAL choices and I would rather 5 actual choices than 100 points of cookie cutter crap.

Talent trees in their current implementation(current WoW, TOR, Rift, etc) are not fun nor engaging. If removing them is "dumbing down" then dumb it up.

Firstly, No offence but Your kind of a hypocrite, and incoherant. You talk about playing cookie cutter crap, but your playing the #1 game known for cookie cutter crap. Do you even know what Cookie Cutter means by any chance? because The term cookie cutter means when most players of a certain class, race, ect. use the same abilities and/or gear, and generally all look the same.

Secondly, You obviously never were there when 40 man raids were around because you could multi-spec into differnt tree's in WoW, You think Pandaria is not going to be cookie cutter? hahahahahahahahaha..*falls off his chair laughing* dude everyone is going to have the same exact skills, and spells, and abilitys now. The only thing thats differnt is you get 1 new skill/spell every 5 or 15 so lvls Your actually going to be playing a more cookie cutter game then you were 4 years ago.

And Lasty, The talents trees in Rift are very well designed and offer a lot more in terms of choice then WoW It's nice that you like WoW, and I respect that, but at least get your facts strait, instead of talking a bunch of nonsense with no logic behind it.. Geesh

I think it all depend on the Point of View, i mean, in vanilla , Talents were not more complicated for "elitist" gamer , you HAD to have a disc priest and a holy priest, and the build HAD to be in a way, there wasnt any hybrid spec that allowed the same healing/dps, there was always something better.

For more casual players, yes there were more customization but for perfectionnist both for pvp and pve it was specific builds, you could not move from that or someone that respect that build would win against you

Now in cata, as a mage for example you choose if you sheep twice, or if sheeps breaks it stuns and etc.. this IS something that i find personal opinion, it does not improve how good your dps will be, double sheep helps for some kind of pull but most classes have some cc now, stun after sheep break is good for people who aoe like idiot.. so it all depends

And now since each tier gives a "utility" mages wont have to decide if they take a bubble or more spell power because that tier will be for protection, not for either protection or damage.

I do think that in the end we will see more differences that we do now or in vanilla between 2 characters of the same spec.

Everyone who says that in vanilla you could raid 40 man with different build and still be as best as the other one is lying, i remember very well as a priest to be forced to be disc, i wasnt even allowed to be shadow, and my build was straigh i couldnt change it at all.

Originally posted by Pouf

 Everyone who says that in vanilla you could raid 40 man with different build and still be as best as the other one is lying, i remember very well as a priest to be forced to be disc, i wasnt even allowed to be shadow, and my build was straigh i couldnt change it at all.

I think you need to read my post. I never said you could raid with a differn't build and be the best. I said players had the choice of multi speccing when 40 man raids were around.

And if you were forced to be a disc priest in vanilla WoW then thats your own fault for not finding a better raiding guild. Because in vanilla wow I had a LvL 60 Undead Shadow Priest and our guild would always have a descent amount of healers. No one forces you to do anything, it's up too you if you want too play that spec. Thats like saying I'm going to play a Tank class even though I don't want to. "Im being forced too do it" What were they pointing a gun at you or something? lol

Depends how your guild progression was. By forced i am not saying that my guild forced me to be disc, i just mean that if I myself wanted to be the best for my guild, i had to be either holy/disc. i was DISC to be the one giving the spirit buff. Shadow priest were quite useless end game raid gear wasnt for shadow at all, it's like feral druid, they were almost non-existant for late end raid because most of the raid set was for healing. Dps warrior were only possible by wearing leather gear. Pally had no dps at all , watever the spec..

The diversity is better now than then 

Shadow priest were bombs in PVP, they were owning almost anything because trinket wasnt removing fear and because their bubbles were so strong and with the talent blackout each shadow damage had a chance to stun it was damn strong. But it was useless in pve raid

Originally posted by Pouf

Shadow priest were quite useless end game raid gear wasnt for shadow at all, it's like feral druid, they were almost non-existant for late end raid because most of the raid set was for healing. Dps warrior were only possible by wearing leather gear. Pally had no dps at all , watever the spec..

The diversity is better now than then 

Yeah because Shadow priests werent good at all back then.. --->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYOjLTxWyww // http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vb-raZA6O8

Yeah because Paladins had no dps at all back then... ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc29de3ymPA

Know what a rekbomb is?

Originally posted by trash656

Originally posted by Pouf

Shadow priest were quite useless end game raid gear wasnt for shadow at all, it's like feral druid, they were almost non-existant for late end raid because most of the raid set was for healing. Dps warrior were only possible by wearing leather gear. Pally had no dps at all , watever the spec..

The diversity is better now than then 

Yeah because Shadow priests werent good at all back then.. --->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYOjLTxWyww // http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vb-raZA6O8

Yeah because Paladins had no dps at all back then... ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc29de3ymPA

 

Know what a rekbomb is?

Its not that they weren't great its just that them being healers were much more important to raid leaders, especially when pure DPS classes could usually out damage them.  Also the tier gear for paladins and priest were healing sets.  It wasn't until TBC that blizz started implementing hybrid spec tier sets.

With that being said, the reckbomb was quickly nerfed because it was just an oversight of the old talents.  It didn't last for more then a couple of patches.

As big fan of wow i don't like that. I would like more huge talent tree like in path of exile where i could play with talents and customize my character to be more unique in skills and abilities. Best reward  when i was leveling for me was that little play with talent tree and how it looks that fun will go away. Shame, give us talents for every level Blizzard !

Blizzard more or less ended spec choices when unintended power specs appeared in wrath ala DK 0/32/39. I loved that spec and i'll be the first to admit it was way to overpowered. I firmly believe it is one of the specs that lead to the specialization system that is on live now.

Players were constantly finding overpowered builds and blizzard had to nerf them thus more time and effort and pissing the community off as a whole when it was crushed. Because when these builds popped up, they became cookie cutter almost overnight. You had players regearing to fit this new min/max setup that was never intended. Most of the time it was usually far to powerful to be left alone and boom nerf. People are stuck with this oddball gear set that is no longer useful, thus the rage.

Fast forward past cata, we have panda talents. They are choices and for the most part gear does not revolve around the abilities. A few of those choices i've looked over actually make me have to think, more so than anyways thats for sure. I can make my cata spec now with my eyes closed its so cut and dry.

Vanilla and BC had alot of fun specs and i miss it. Issue being the community as a whole can't handle it when the nerf bat comes swinging so they removed the need for so many swings. Blizzard is a pro at crowd control.

The purpose of the talent tree overhaul is to simplify it. The points are being auto-allocated for players so that they don't have to alttab to EJ or Icy-veins to make sure that their spec is correct. The points that players actually get to allocate reflect the so-called 'optional' talent points left in some specs of certain classes, although they will be cookie'd too much the same way.